What do we teach our children? by canttakesky

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What do we teach our children?

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Sunday, November 7, 2010 10:54
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VIEWED: 1135
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Saturday, November 6, 2010 12:12 PM

I am not a big fan of Alex Jones, but his interview with Michelle brings up some good issues.

http://www.infowars.com/tsa-fondles-women-and-children-refusing-airpor
t-naked-body-scanners/

What do we teach our children? "Don't ever, ever let anyone touch you in your private places--except at airports? Because sexual assault is legal there."

As a mother, I can't imagine telling my daughter that she has to let a grown male or female stranger feel her private areas. What kind of betrayal is that?

How is this a choice, when your options are either to teach them to be obedient in getting irradiated (with unknown health risks) and or to teach them to be obedient through a sexual assault.

Frem, I hope to hear some good, profanity laden rants from you. Please. I need it. Thank you.

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 1:06 PM

HKCAVALIER

Security theater, meet security porn.

This is pure cultural psychosis.

People carrying bombs have a list of readily apparent psychological characteristics that a trained observer can pick out after a few seconds--muscular, gestural and postural cues that can't be masked except with muscle relaxants which carry their own characteristic "tells." For one, they don't like eye contact; two, they don't look up; three, they have heightened anxiety apparent in a dozen different ways. And that's just the most obvious stuff that even untrained but observant people can see. Profile for this kinda shit and leave the rest of the women and small children alone. You ask a 2 year old if she has any bombs on her, one way or another, it's gonna be obvious just from looking at her! You don't need to grope the poor child. I can barely believe that this is what a 10 years gone terror attack has brought this country to. People are so terrified that now they're believing in 2 year old hardened criminals pulling the wool over the eyes of airport security. Totally insane. Where does this come from and where does it end?

And fer Christ's sake, breast implant bombs??? No, you DO NOT get to tell people that suicide bombers are carrying bombs in their breast implants UNTIL such a bomb is actually found or detonated. One of these things is not like the others: homemade bomb in shoe, homemade bomb in underwear, half-assed bomb in trunk of car, ultra-sophisticated miniaturized bomb embedded in breast implant by skilled surgeon. Sorry, it's horseshit. Sure, terrorists will tell you that they're doing it--why wouldn't they? Freakin' MI5 says they've picked up "chatter." Oh, that's actionable intel, fer sure.

Yeah, and Saddam said he had WMD. Why? To scare us into doing stupid shit! It's so effing transparent what's going on here. Let's turn the West into our mental slaves--make them jump through our hoops just by telling them we might have some hoops. And it appears to be working. This is so far beyond disgusting and transparent.

And again, if there were such a woman fitted with these bombs and trying to get onboard a plane, a trained deception detector could pick her out of the crowd based on muscular, gestural and postural cues. And it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than x-ray machines, and a hell of a lot more effective than some TSA perv dry-humping her.

Like Ted Bundy used to say: "Buckle up for safety!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 2:03 PM

MAL4PREZ

Yeah, this is ridiculous. We have let the damned terrorists win by just giving up our freedoms. I hate these fucking scanners. What a waste of money and time. I'm so glad I don't travel as much as I used to, because it's gotten nuts - and now this searching private places thing? Good lord.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 3:10 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Thank you, HK. I am so glad you pointed out there are ways to address security concerns without resorting to this. This is not about security. It is about obedience.

This should make everyone who recognizes sexual molestation furious. This poor woman didn't know what it was, and now she is going to feel molested forever. And we all stood by and let it happen.

For some reason, I am reminded of the Milgram experiment on Obedience. Here it is again, cause it is worth widespread viewing. (Be sure to watch all 3 parts. The good commentary is at the end.)

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 4:01 PM

KANEMAN

Move them to Cali, light a joint, and ban pets....

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 4:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Teach them what is best in life.....

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

That is all.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 4:22 PM

DREAMTROVE

As I post every time this comes up, I actually personally know the guy who designed this experiment. His name is not on it because when Stan Milgram wanted to claim all the credit, the creator made no effort to stop him. He said "We created a monster, and when I started a second study to see if we could actually stop this monster, my funding was mysteriously pulled."

The whole thing was created under the pretense of stopping a Nazi like authoritarian behavior, but when it came time to try, there turn out to be no interest in stopping monsters, only creating them.

Funny that.

Oh, and I would refer Niki and Mal to this post, this is where authoritarian behavior and mindset is really coming from.

Remember of course that these are university students, and professors, overwhelmingly liberal, but I don't think liberalism caused them to behave this way.

Also, comments from the guy who did the study who prefers not to be named, but he would like to add this:

The study worked at different rates in different societies. It was most effective in Sweden, whereas adherence to the extreme requests of manipulators in the study had their weakest showing in France. In analyzing the data he said he thought that general social chaos of society was the strongest part, but distrust of authority such as govt., the education system, etc. played a part in resistance to the experiment.

He also noted that what he was able to do in preventative study was determine that deprogramming the programmed was virtually if not entirely impossible, but that preconditioning them against it, immunizing them, as it were, was fairly successful. Still, in a study with all but one of the students being ringers who were immunized against the program and had a been asked to stage a revolt against the study, the one programmed student in the study failed to give up his adherence to the new programming even after the last of the ringers had rebelled against it.

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 4:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Move them to Cali, light a joint, and ban pets....

Leave it to our local teabaggers to hold the position that objecting to an invasion of privacy is a "liberal" belief...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 5:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yanno, there's times I get tired of picking up the balls John fumbles.... not that ole PN would do a coherent job of it, mind you, but he shoulda at least fekkin mentioned it.

Thing is, follow the money, remember that Neo-Con bitch Chertoff ?

Well, he has a heavy financial interest in those machines, and was instrumental in pushing them, and he ain't the only one.
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/01/airport-scanner-scam

Hell, how much did we pay for those stupid sniffer/puffer machines which never worked, and went into the landfill, but SOMEONE got paid, didn't they ?

And of course, the many times I have shown our so-called protectors to be directly or indirectly behind many of these supposed terrorists, you gotta think about the fact that they damn well want us to not go questioning, especially in light of for likely the first time in history we got a partial accounting of what the bill for our intel/alphabet boys is gonna be.

80.1 BILLION dollars, for one year, and for what, for them to cook up plots, hand it to a provocateur who sells it to a pack of incompetents who couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were stamped on the heel, and then round them up and tout it like there was ever any kind of threat ?

Remember, these are also the nimrods who GAVE ole KSM's goons a working bomb when they couldn't build one themselves, and then managed to let em set it off under the WTC in 1993 - the bitter irony of that bomb being paid for by YOUR TAX DOLLARS shouldn't be lost on any of us ?

Or all the bullshit that has come before, and has come around to bite us on the ass, from them capping Mossedeigh, to arming and training the Mujas, to installing Saddam, *ALL* of which comes back to bite us on the ass, does it not ?

Anyone here really think Kharazi is gonna do anything but the same bloody thing - or get lynched and replaced by someone who hates us more than the damn Ayatollah did ?

No, they do NOT make us safe, they make us LESS safe - the real terrorists are our own so-called protectors, not just with their fearmongering, but going round picking fights to keep us mired in wars to feed the military-corporate welfare machine, War *is* a Racket, as Smedley said.

The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, where they have no hope of a better future thanks in great part to our actions, and that won't go away overnight - I mean, what CAN we offer a guy whos home, family, crops and livestock was "collateral damage", who has nothing left BUT grudge... a fuckin apology ?
Not doin that shit in the FIRST place is the key to not having that guy come after you with ten pounds of semtex strapped to him.

And fuck, it's easier than that - how many people could we feed, clothe, shelter, give medical care to, for eighty BILLION dollars ?

Sure, they won't trust us right off, who would ?
But feedin hungry people has a way of inclining them to think you're OK, that maybe you ain't as evil as they thought, and it pays off in ways beyond mere money and politics, should anyone care.

For a fact, there IS no safety when everyone hates you, and wants to kill you - and NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY, no matter how much MORE oppression and misery you heap on people, you will never cow them ENOUGH to be safe, not that way, and that way lies true madness, entire countries gone completely insane - one need look no further than Israel and Palestine to see where that goes, and they are no more safe, either of em, than they ever were.

And we've gone insane the same way, helped along by a system set up to drive us there, bombed by force and fear from the cradle to the grave.

Quote:
"As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educators threat and by the fathers rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policemans club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.?
-Boris Sidis, from a lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

Remember, as long as y'all have known me, I have seen this coming, and could always tell you why and how in more detail than you ever wanted to know - and there's only ONE way to fix this problem, to stop breeding this insanity by inflicting it upon our children.

In the meantime, about all we have left is mass noncompliance and public sentiment, which is, thankfully, having SOME effect here, and I would include economic warfare as well, but that didn't work when folk boycotted GM for their shitty cars cause the Gov came along, bailed em out, gave em our money anyway, and WE DIDN'T EVEN GET THE SHITTY CAR! - so, were we to try cutting the legs out from under the airlines financially in an attempt to inspire them to add to the pressure, all we'd wind up really doing is setting them up for a massive bailout.

Also, since I am on the topic, one might also look into more recent research via Boston U, particularly Peter Gray.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/200907/play-makes-us
-human-vi-hunter-gatherers-playful-parenting?page=2

Quote:
It wasn't just that new metaphors became available. Rather, the goal of parenting changed--from that of fostering the child's will to that of suppressing the child's will--because the perceived needs of society changed.

You want the whole study, you can have it here.
http://americanjournalofplay.press.illinois.edu/1/4/gray.html

What we do to kids in the name of impressing them into our gone-rabid culture and society is far, far worse than shoving them through those machines, people - for a fact I have had six discussions these week, and plan to actually see about some observation experiments, revolving around the simple fact that OUR CHILDREN ARE MORE CIVILIZED THAN WE ARE, that comparitively, they're better behaved, treat each other better, and exercise more restraint and tolerance than the supposed "adults" - mostly because it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to crush human empathy out of them in the name of "educating" them, and even then it almost never completely takes, does it ?

We teach them force and fear, hate and sorrow, teach them to deny, defy, and despise their own humanity, and is it then any wonder that they turn out as insane as we are ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, November 6, 2010 6:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, where they have no hope of a better future thanks in great part to our actions, and that won't go away overnight - I mean, what CAN we offer a guy whos home, family, crops and livestock was "collateral damage", who has nothing left BUT grudge... a fuckin apology ?

Well, that and a channel for a proper redress of grievances. The thing is when we give them no voice in the process of change and no option to make cases against those who have wronged them and their families then we do reduce them to most base options left.

Of course, there's a decent chance that that's what TPTB want...

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 2:22 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, .....

This is golden.

I knew you were good for it, Frem.

Loved that rant. Every fucking word.

----
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things...
--Frem

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 3:01 AM

KWICKO

Aaaaaaaannnnnnddd here we go again!

Republican Senator urges Obama to support war with Iran, ‘confrontation’ with China

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/republican-senator-urges-obama-supp
ort-war-iran-confrontation-china/

I've no doubt that the tea-baggers will be quick to smack this idea down, right? I mean, surely y'all won't support this.

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 3:04 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, where they have no hope of a better future thanks in great part to our actions, and that won't go away overnight - I mean, what CAN we offer a guy whos home, family, crops and livestock was "collateral damage", who has nothing left BUT grudge... a fuckin apology ?

Well, that and a channel for a proper redress of grievances. The thing is when we give them no voice in the process of change and no option to make cases against those who have wronged them and their families then we do reduce them to most base options left.

Of course, there's a decent chance that that's what TPTB want...

Well, YEAH - given that every attack merely fattens their wallets by increasing the need for security theatre!

Frem didn't directly mention it, but follow the money, and you'll no doubt find that some enterprising security company with ties to TPTB already has a magical new machine that will scan freight shipments, to keep us all safe from package bombs.

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 3:48 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Oh, and I would refer Niki and Mal to this post, this is where authoritarian behavior and mindset is really coming from.

Refer to which post? The one I'm replying to? What about it? Really, I'm confused.

And please to explain more: which mindset do you mean? The authoritarian mentality itself, or the definition of it as a psychological term. You're connecting back to the RWA thing, right?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here. I just honestly don't understand what you're saying.

I'm also not sure what you're after by pointing out that this was done by university students, who therefore must be liberals. I suspect that you're trying to stress that "liberals" can fall prey to the RWA mindset. That is not in doubt: as I said in the other thread: "RW" in RWA does not refer to the right wing of politics, and not every RWA is a political conservative. Nor is every political conservative an RWA. No one, that I know of, has made such a blanket statement.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 3:49 AM

DREAMTROVE

Right, I actually had figured out that much, but you can't just hire terrorists and make it look like war, people have to be fighting you. And people fight you because you've given them no channel for a redress of grievances. But they can always shoot you.

And I would point out that the first senator to make the motion was our (gag) senator, though she'd never actually lived here: Hillary Clinton.

The tea party started out anti war, and I hope it stays that way, but if some of the corporate whores it undoubtedly just elected go along with it, then they have to be re-educated. So you see the need for my little project?

Life becomes a lot more pleasant once you realize there are no enemies, just some misguided friends.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 4:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, where they have no hope of a better future thanks in great part to our actions, and that won't go away overnight - I mean, what CAN we offer a guy whos home, family, crops and livestock was "collateral damage", who has nothing left BUT grudge... a fuckin apology ?

Because we're the only nation that intervenes and tries to influence what goes on outside of our own borders.

Riiiiiight.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 7:45 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
The key to avoiding 99.99999% of terrorist attacks is not abusing other nations and their people to the point where they're willing to die to make a point of things, where they have no hope of a better future thanks in great part to our actions, and that won't go away overnight - I mean, what CAN we offer a guy whos home, family, crops and livestock was "collateral damage", who has nothing left BUT grudge... a fuckin apology ?

Because we're the only nation that intervenes and tries to influence what goes on outside of our own borders.

Riiiiiight.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

Because we're the only nation that suffers any kind of terrorist attack.

Riiiiiiiight.

Pretty much every nation that putzes around outside its own borders pays a price for doing so.

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 7:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Because we're the only nation that suffers any kind of terrorist attack.

Riiiiiiiight.

Pretty much every nation that putzes around outside its own borders pays a price for doing so.

like Indonesia? ( Bali Bombings )

Like Russia ? ( Beslan massacre )

Like India ? ( Mumbai attack )

3 countries that got attacked, by 'some' group, and not for anything they've done outside of their own borders.

Hmm..

Who were those attackers, in each and every instance ?

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 8:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

A similar study was done at Stanford, the “Stanford Prison Experiment”. It was done with students:

Quote:
The participants adapted to their roles well beyond what even Zimbardo himself expected, leading the guards to display authoritarian measures and ultimately to subject some of the prisoners to torture. In turn, many of the prisoners developed passive attitudes and accepted physical abuse, and, at the request of the guards, readily inflicted punishment on other prisoners who attempted to stop it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

It was so bad the experiment was stopped after only six days.

Mal is correct:

Quote:
"RW" in RWA does not refer to the right wing of politics, and not every RWA is a political conservative. Nor is every political conservative an RWA. No one, that I know of, has made such a blanket statement.

Even Bob Altemeyer, who wrote “The Authoritrians” which I often quote, wrote:

Quote:
I call these followers rightwing authoritarians. I’m using the word “right” in one of its earliest meanings, for in Old English “riht”(pronounced “writ”) as an adjective meant lawful, proper, correct, doing what the authorities said.

In North America people who submit to the established authorities to extraordinary degrees often turn out to be political conservatives, so you can call them “right-wingers” both in my new-fangled psychological sense and in the usual political sense as well. But someone who lived in a country long ruled by Communists and who ardently supported the Communist Party would also be one of my psychological right-wing authoritarians even though we would also say he was a political left-winger. So a right-wing authoritarian follower doesn’t necessarily have conservative political views. Instead he’s someone who readily submits to the established authorities in society, attacks others in their name, and is highly conventional. It’s an aspect of his personality, not a description of his politics. Rightwing authoritarianism is a personality trait, like being characteristically bashful or happy or grumpy or dopey.

The fact that it is called “RIGHT wing Authoritarianism” is something the RWAs here (who best exemplify the trait) have glomed onto and believe refers to the Republican Party. It does not. As to your crack about university students being “overwhelmingly liberal”, might I respectfully remind you that the study was cited at Yale; Both George HW Bush and George Bush attended Yale.

I, too, would be interest in your reference to bring your post to my attention. This is not where “authoritarian behavior and mindset is really coming from”, they’ve been around throughout the history of man. And the book I quote didn’t get the concept of RWA from the study cited, either, it’s about something altogether different, albeit somewhat connected.

Mal is also correct, as I’ve said before, in that

Quote:
We have let the damned terrorists win by just giving up our freedoms.

As with the current Islamaphobia and the New York Community Center, as well as with what is discussed here, many of us are playing directly into the hands of what the terrorists’ main aim IS. The RWA’s here don’t seem able to grasp that, and Fox, etc., are doing an excellent job of encouraging it, which is weird because they KNOW what they’re doing, and are doing it happily in order to further their right-wing agenda. Xenophobia, hate and fear are the order of the day, and thus far it’s serving the Republicans far more than the Democrats.

I agree wholeheartedly with DT on:

Quote:
Well, that and a channel for a proper redress of grievances. The thing is when we give them no voice in the process of change and no option to make cases against those who have wronged them and their families then we do reduce them to most base options left.

as well as

Quote:
people fight you because you've given them no channel for a redress of grievances. But they can always shoot you.

Another thing some people don’t get; the mentality that “we know what’s best for you” and that our soldiers are always in the right only creates hatred and fear by the countries we invade, which helps to create terrorists. It IS the only way they can fight back against our vastly superior strength.

Obviously we’re not the only nation that intervenes and influences, but in recent times we’ve been the country that by far does it the MOST, and without a doubt the most comprehensively and aggressively.

And thank you, Frem, for making your case so eloquently and effectively. I agree.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 10:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Just a side note: There ARE actually LWAs, as well, you can find em occasionally in the Libertarian Party, but mostly amongst the more Nihilistic branches of Anarchism and most especially with non-NewAge or more Esoteric religious beliefs.

And they're every bit as dangerous, in their own way, sometimes even more so because one way people bulk up their political position when it's not supported by the mainstream is sheer rabidity.
(Look at the 2nd amendment folk as a case in point there - although I am of the opinion that you defend em all, or you just don't bother)

Robespierre was an LWA, which became RWA only when public sentiment and values ran a sea-change and came in behind him as the new established "Right", and that didn't really work out so well for em all in the short run.

The whole of it is actually better summed up by it's extremism - cause I kinda reject "Lucifer Effect" of the type suggested by the Stanford Prison, Milgram and other related experiments, as well as propaganda like Lord of the Flies due to both essential sample corruption, and that they seem to be "cooked" in a fashion to support a premise that is at best flawed, if not unsustainable.

You can't take a sample from a society in which folks have their humanity crushed out of them from the very cradle, pull it from one of the most authoritarian institutions on the planet (public/college "education") and then suggest that humans are naturally inhumane and authoritarian - because your "study" has been inadvertently pre-loaded to produce that exact result whether you meant it or not.

That is why the MK-Ultra and other experiments failed, cause via mass-media, propaganda (like Hearst, father of yellow journalism) and other social interventions, often times downright physical ones, like seizing children from "undesirable" subcultures (native americans, mormons) and "re-educating" them - we'd ALREADY *been* involved in pyschological manipulation and programming/conditioning on a grand scale, and the damn fools running things didn't seem to realize they were running their experiments in an ant farm which was itself a larger experiment by people who'd been doing it ever since Plato suggested it.

Lest one forget, I am a Rosseau-Kropotkinist, a belief I did not come by arbitrarily, but by seeking the CAUSES of behavior, rather than their outcomes, and the singlemost disastrous concept we have is that "People are naturally evil, and must be controlled for thier own good!" - a concept for the most part offered to us with one hand BY people offering a leash in the other, for their own reasons...

So you can't take a group of people CONDITIONED for twenty some (or even ten, as in Lord of the Flies ) years to a certain behavior, and then try to make the case that it's inborn, that's bloody ridiculous - and many recent studies by researchers overseas have shown it, by pointing out that unconditioned children for the most part do not display those behaviors.

If I wanted to spike the hell out of Milgram, I'd simply select the sample from entirely FreeSchool/HomeSchool children, and lay good odds you'd not find one in ten who would follow through.

Genetics might load the gun, but it's environment which pulls the trigger - and sure, while there's some exceptions to that, misfire an whatnot, this is the bulk of humanity, they're trained to a behavior that is unnatural, unhuman even cause for a fact were we really inherently like this - how the hell did we ever build civilization in the first place ?

Cause if you buy into all that rot, you wind up with a chicken-and-egg problem - namely, how did we build civilization to civilize us, if we need to be forcibly civilized to get anything done ?
(And I use the term civilized in a very tongue in cheek sense here!)

Quote:
THIS is civilization ?!
Thank Crom I am a barbarian!
-Conan

Anyhow, the essence of Authoritarian thinking is it's extremity, and that is not limited to any specific political, social or religious faction, never was and never will be.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedextremist

Interesting note to this: I've had to have a bit of a talk with my guard force about "authority" in that (our) security personnel in fact have no authority that isn't given them by the very people they watch over - having no legal means to compel someone elses behavior (and this is deliberate, mind you) they have only their appearance, demeanor, and professional reputation, which is used to EARN it.

But in all truth they have no more "authority" than folks are willing to give them, of their own free will - which severely limits corruption and abusive behavior present in many other companies, and tends to send Authoritarian/Extreme/Abusive types looking elsewhere for their "fix" - sadly, all they gotta do for that is go down the road an sign up with DHS/TSA...

Anyhow, I had one of the kids do us a wall hanging I put by the office door today, I think y'all might like it.

Quote:
I have no power but what you give me.
You give me no power without trust.
Only those worthy of trust shall receive it.

I strive to be worthy.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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