REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What He Said: Ron Paul on Ground Zero Property Rights

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 04:00
SHORT URL:
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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:16 PM

HKCAVALIER


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014453-503544.html

Just scroll down until you see the little blue "statement" in the article and clicky. My name's HK and I approve this message.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Isn't it fantastic??? I just heard about it (on MSNBC, by the way), and my jaw dropped.

Here's the quote:
Quote:

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”...

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservative’s aggressive wars...

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.


Huzzah Ron Paul!!! The definitive statement on the entire issue...I'm DEEPLY impressed!
Mr.Paul!




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech."

Hello,

The best quote from the article, in my opinion.

It's too bad we don't have more like Ron Paul. I miss the rEVOLution.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:31 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm just blown away. His grasp of the entire situation, and how eloquently and concisely he covered it, had me whooping when I heard it and, even tho' I don't come back here in the evenings, I HAD to come -- I'm glad you put it up first, Anthony, or I would have.

Fanfuckingtastic. If ONLY people would listen...unfortunately I doubt they will...sigh...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

We must credit Mr. Cavalier for putting this up.

Of course, this bold statement puts the Tea Party in a bit of a predicament.

They must either disown Paul, declare him the fuddy-duddy grandfather that everyone loves but nobody listens to, or rethink the wisdom of the recent right wing push against the building of this center.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:50 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooops...sorry Cav, moving too fast. Thank YOU.

The Tea Party has pretty much dumped Ron Paul, as far as I've seen, already, haven't they? The certainly don't represent what I've learned of Paul, but I'm not well versed on the subject.

I wish I'd known all I've learned earlier, I might well have voted for the man.

Ooops again; I THOUGHT what I heard on TV was different from the quote I found. Here's the entire statement, which is even better!
Quote:

Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.



And I say again: HUZZAH!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 5:00 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The Tea Party long-since discarded following of Ron Paul's full platform (the Peace part especially) but they still bandied his name around the same way modern day Patriots use the names of the Founding Fathers whenever they are trying to make a political point.

However, with this stance, diametrically opposed to recent maneuverings and strategems, I wonder how they will respond.

Will the George Washington of the Tea Party be disowned officially now, as his policies have been quietly and unofficially abandoned in the past?

Or is this a special moment for the Tea Party, and perhaps the larger part of the Conservatives in this country, to rediscover their roots?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 5:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Smart political move.

Of course, it never was an issue of "rights", but one of dignity, respect and decency.

The Phelps clan - Westboro nut jobs that they are- has the "right " to protest the funerals of those who died of AIDs, or our war heroes, but it sure as hell doesn't make it right. Or proper.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Smart political move.

Of course, it never was an issue of "rights", but one of dignity, respect and decency.

The Phelps clan - Westboro nut jobs that they are- has the "right " to protest the funerals of those who died of AIDs, or our war heroes, but it sure as hell doesn't make it right. Or proper.



And yet no one is calling for investigations into where they get their funding...

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And yet no one is calling for investigations into where they get their funding...



Lie.


Speaker Pelosi is the only one calling for investigations here, pal.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:23 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And yet no one is calling for investigations into where they get their funding...



Lie.


Speaker Pelosi is the only one calling for investigations here, pal.



Lie.

You have called for exactly that, and more. Here. Suck on that, "pal".

Also, your messiah Newt has called for them as well. Several of the hard-right talking heads were calling for such investigations into the community center's funding.

Odd that all those calls seem to have disappeared once it was revealed that Fox's #2 shareholder was one of the major funders.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:26 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Isn't it fantastic??? I just heard about it (on MSNBC, by the way), and my jaw dropped.

Here's the quote:
Quote:

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”...

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservative’s aggressive wars...

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.


Huzzah Ron Paul!!! The definitive statement on the entire issue...I'm DEEPLY impressed!
Mr.Paul!




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off






That your jaw dropped is why you are an ignorant blather-er. What did you think Ron Paul would say? Moron.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Where did I call for that ? ( the mosque's funding to be investigated )

I'm not Newt, so don't try to piggy back my views onto what he may have said, or not said.

Any calls for the funding of the Mosque are proper and still being made, because of the very legitimate tie in w/ terrorism.

Not so for those speaking out against the Mosque. Pelosi called for investigations so as to intimidate and quell free speech. HUGE difference, moron.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:37 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

The Tea Party long-since discarded following of Ron Paul's full platform (the Peace part especially) but they still bandied his name around the same way modern day Patriots use the names of the Founding Fathers whenever they are trying to make a political point.

However, with this stance, diametrically opposed to recent maneuverings and strategems, I wonder how they will respond.

Will the George Washington of the Tea Party be disowned officially now, as his policies have been quietly and unofficially abandoned in the past?

Or is this a special moment for the Tea Party, and perhaps the larger part of the Conservatives in this country, to rediscover their roots?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.



Really? When has the Tea Party dumped his anti-war platform? that's news to me, whenever I see their signs telling the government to close our bases around the world and cut the department of defense so we can save money, I'll remember this stupid fucking statement. Do you guys just type whatever comes into your fucking head?



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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:38 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Where did I call for that ? ( the mosque's funding to be investigated )

I'm not Newt, so don't try to piggy back my views onto what he may have said, or not said.

Any calls for the funding of the Mosque are proper and still being made, because of the very legitimate tie in w/ terrorism.

Not so for those speaking out against the Mosque. Pelosi called for investigations so as to intimidate and quell free speech. HUGE difference, moron.






What else do you expect him to do? You know you are not Auraptor you are Newt, Bush, Limbaugh, etc....The guy is a complete tool.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

What else do you expect him to do? You know you are not Auraptor you are Newt, Bush, Limbaugh, etc....The guy is a complete tool.



I'm sure he's making a furious search to find where I called for any such investigation, which would have only come after Pelosi's gestapo like call for investigations to stamp down free speech.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Where did I call for that ? ( the mosque's funding to be investigated )



Two lines down.

Quote:


I'm not Newt, so don't try to piggy back my views onto what he may have said, or not said.

Any calls for the funding of the Mosque are proper and still being made, because of the very legitimate tie in w/ terrorism.



See? You just did it AGAIN.

And by all means, please provide your evidence that this Imam and this community center have "legitimate" ties with terrorism. You can't, because you're lying. Again.

Quote:


Not so for those speaking out against the Mosque. Pelosi called for investigations so as to intimidate and quell free speech. HUGE difference, moron.



In other words, moron, you're calling for violating one group's First Amendment rights (freedom of religion) while defending another group's First Amendment rights (free speech).

Newt and the rightwing wackos - including you - are still calling for investigations so as to intimidate and quell freedom of religion. Not so huge a difference, moron.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I have to do it once before I do it "again".


And I didn't CALL FOR ANY INVESTIGATIONS in the example you cited, but simply stated that they would be proper.

I know, in your small, pea sized brain, one means exactly the same as the other, but again, you'd be wrong.


you've got nothing, you know you have nothing, and now all you're doing is trolling because you're such a miserable loser who makes claims you can't back up.

Keep searching, kwickie.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:59 AM

KANEMAN


He's got a point Kwicko. That he thinks something would be proper is not the same as calling for it. So once again you either lie or have no comprehension.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
He's got a point Kwicko. That he thinks something would be proper is not the same as calling for it. So once again you either lie or have no comprehension.




While usually I'd say it can't be both.... in this case, it is.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

What else do you expect him to do? You know you are not Auraptor you are Newt, Bush, Limbaugh, etc....The guy is a complete tool.



I'm sure he's making a furious search to find where I called for any such investigation, which would have only come after Pelosi's gestapo like call for investigations to stamp down free speech.







I need search no further than your own post in which you claim you've never called for such a thing, then call for such a thing. Again.

You can sit around and claim that saying an investigation would be "proper" isn't calling for an investigation, just like you believe waterboarding is "proper", but would never actually CONDONE it. Except when you condone it, of course.

"Hey, I'm not saying Rappy should be murdered; I'm just saying that murdering him would be proper."

There. You can never claim that I advocated violence against you, right?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

Just so you know, these are the current Tea Party planks. I hope they add a Peace initiative, because no such initiative is an official part of their current platform.

1. Identify constitutionality of every new law: Require each bill to identify the specific provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the bill does.

2. Reject emissions trading: Stop the "cap and trade" administrative approach used to control pollution by providing economic incentives for achieving reductions in the emissions of pollutants.

3. Demand a balanced federal budget: Begin the Constitutional amendment process to require a balanced budget with a two-thirds majority needed for any tax modification.

4. Simplify the tax system: Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words – the length of the original Constitution.

5. Audit federal government agencies for constitutionality: Create a Blue Ribbon taskforce that engages in an audit of federal agencies and programs, assessing their Constitutionality, and identifying duplication, waste, ineffectiveness, and agencies and programs better left for the states or local authorities.

6. Limit annual growth in federal spending: Impose a statutory cap limiting the annual growth in total federal spending to the sum of the inflation rate plus the percentage of population growth.

7. Repeal the health care legislation passed on March 23, 2010: Defund, repeal and replace the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

8. Pass an 'All-of-the-Above' Energy Policy: Authorize the exploration of additional energy reserves to reduce American dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce regulatory barriers to all other forms of energy creation.

9. Reduce Earmarks: Place a moratorium on all earmarks until the budget is balanced, and then require a 2/3 majority to pass any earmark.

10. Reduce Taxes: Permanently repeal all recent tax increases, and extend permanently the George W. Bush temporary reductions in income tax, capital gains tax and estate taxes, currently scheduled to end in 2011.


By adding an end to the wars and stating that the wars are foolish, they'll do a lot to ease the hysteria. Ending the wars was at the forefront of Ron Paul's presidential platform, but you'll see it doesn't even make the top ten here. Ron Paul also included in his Presidential platform a requirement for Congress to actually declare war if they wanted to be at war with someone. This would force each member to firmly vote for or against the war itself, and not merely funding troops or specific limited operations that piecemeal us into eternal conflicts and police actions.

May the Tea Party REMEMBER to make this part of their platform. Because while individuals may exist who came in because of Ron Paul's policies, the Party proper has FORGOTTEN many of them.

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I would add:

Repeal the Patriot Act

Demand that politicians/CEOs be held accountable for their actions. Their time must fit the crime.

No policing of the world. We only fight wars that are brought TO us.



The first 10 are a great start tho.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I need search no further than your own post in which you claim you've never called for such a thing, then call for such a thing. Again.




Yeah, you do. Because I never called for one, and I never called for one " again ". You have zero evidence, and you, once again, got caught. Only now, you're not even bothering to add another word " here " to try to worm out of it. You're just that pathetic.

Quote:


You can sit around and claim that saying an investigation would be "proper" isn't calling for an investigation, just like you believe waterboarding is "proper", but would never actually CONDONE it. Except when you condone it, of course.

"Hey, I'm not saying Rappy should be murdered; I'm just saying that murdering him would be proper."

There. You can never claim that I advocated violence against you, right?



I'm not the Speaker of the House, and I'm not attempting to quash anyone's right to free speech.

We all know you'd never advocate violence against me. You're too much a coward.

But thanks for the laugh, anyways.





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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Repeal the Patriot Act"

Hello Wulf,

This was another of Ron Paul's planks, though it is tangentially included in requiring laws to prove Constitutionality.

I suspect the Patriot Act would fail the test.

Hard.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Of which "Tea Party" are you speaking, re: platform? I was unaware they were united on much of anything, and that they were a diverse group. Have all the various Tea Party groups agreed to this platform?

Thank you, tho'; I'm going to save that, as I never had an "official" platform for them before, just what's on their signs, which doesn't reflect much of that and more calls the government, Obama and Dems by pejoratives. I appreciate having that.

Mike, hate to say it but they're right. Agreewing with a politician that something would be "proper" isn't the same as calling for it yourself. It's agreement. It's kind of a moot point. He's made his thinking clear by agreeing it would be proper, and that's all that really matters.

Also, Pelosi isn't the "only one" calling for investigations. She did so AFTER Newt and others called for investigation into the funding of the COMMUNITY CENTER.

As to Ron Paul; I don't see it as a political move. He has little to gain by it. But if it was so expectable, why wait until now? There's probably more to it than just speaking his conscience, or he'd have spoken up earlier, in my opinion. This has raged for a while now...


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:28 AM

RIVERLOVE


I can see why those in favor of the 9/11 mosque site, with a mere 26% of Americans agreeing with them, would be elated with any new support, even if it's from a loony doctor/politician like Ron Paul.

Those who oppose the 9/11 mosque site ALSO have support (even though we don't need it) from a loony doctor/politican, former Governor, former DNC Chairman, Howard Dean. He called it "an affront to 911 families", before he too, like Obama, gutlessly backed off and qualified his statements.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014240-503544.html




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And yet no one is calling for investigations into where they get their funding...



Lie.


Speaker Pelosi is the only one calling for investigations here, pal.






That's cute, since she (wrongly) called for investigations into those who wanted to investigate the funding.... who according to you don't exist, and thus Pelosi couldn't do what you say.

Are you really so stupid you don't grasp the inherent contradiction?

Ah, why do I ask.... of course you are.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

The list is from the Tea Party's 'Contract from America' which is the only thing approaching an official stance from the Tea Party on specific issues.

There's info on it at wikipedia:

Quote:


"Hundreds of thousands of people voted for their favorite principles online to create the Contract as an open-sourced platform for the Tea Party movement."



Of course, like with all things, influence spreads its tendrils. Wikipedia notes:

Quote:


However, the Washington conservative group FreedomWorks, led by former House Republican Leader Dick Armey, did have a hand in selecting the final 10 proposals.



I think Ron Paul made this strong declaration now after watching the conservatives of this country carry the banner in the wrong direction for too long and too vociferously. It's been building for a while, but it's recently become very bad.

I have no doubt that if anyone had asked him about this a week ago, a month ago, or a year ago, they'd have gotten a similar answer. However, only recently has this erupted into such a conflagration that it's not only an issue of rights, but also a concern about razzle dazzle and distracting people from the big picture.

Hey, America, LOOK OVER HERE!

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, thank you for the clarification. I accept that. Unfortunately, I have very negative feelings about Freedomworks and their agenda. But if the points they chose are agreed to by the majority of the loosely-affiliated Tea Party groups, that's valid.

I also accept that Paul might not have spoken out previously because that's the kind of person he is, and that his decision to speak now is because of the conflagration and the size to which it has grown.

Cogent points. Thank you.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:27 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Isn't it fantastic??? I just heard about it (on MSNBC, by the way), and my jaw dropped.

Here's the quote:
Quote:

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”...

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservative’s aggressive wars...

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.


Huzzah Ron Paul!!! The definitive statement on the entire issue...I'm DEEPLY impressed!




Definitive statement? At least he calls it a mosque and not a COMMUNITY CENTER

His comments:

"The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks."
- WTF? I haven's seen anyone make that leap, certainly not around here.

"According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims."
- Again, Huh? Who is saying that?? Huzzah Ron Paul indeed, what a stupid statement to make. There wouldn't be a Muslim walking on the continent if people actually thought that.

"People who hate the Mosque don't like pointy buildings."
- OK, That might be true.

To be honest, sounds like a very carefully worded statement that leaves him plenty of wiggle room - he also sounds more concerned with "property rights" than People Rights, something his son recently pushed which would allow owners of private property, ie restaurants, to deny service to whomever they didn't like. That sounds a bit like intolerance, don't it?

And his "all-out attack" and "outcry" - where? The one manufactured in the media? There were 500 protestors on site in NYC this weekend... that's an all out attack?

There are over 1200 mosques in the US - I suppose we don't get any Religious Tolerance credits for that?

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:54 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:


"The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks."
- WTF? I haven's seen anyone make that leap, certainly not around here.

"According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims."
- Again, Huh? Who is saying that?? Huzzah Ron Paul indeed, what a stupid statement to make. There wouldn't be a Muslim walking on the continent if people actually thought that.



That sounds a bit BS. All the whining and complaining about it being too close, sensitivity, etc.... WTF do you think it's about. Folks aren't protesting ANYHTING else going up around the area.... but they'll protest a Muslim center.

The ONLY common denominator is Islam, so OF COURSE that's why people are bitching. Most just won't admit it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Story: Yup.

And I think Paul is right on:
Quote:

The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars.

There's nothing wishy-washy about that statement, it flat out says "those against the COMMUNITY CENTER are utilizing fear to gain their objectives", which I think is agbsolutely true.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:


"The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks."
- WTF? I haven's seen anyone make that leap, certainly not around here.

"According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims."
- Again, Huh? Who is saying that?? Huzzah Ron Paul indeed, what a stupid statement to make. There wouldn't be a Muslim walking on the continent if people actually thought that.



That sounds a bit BS. All the whining and complaining about it being too close, sensitivity, etc.... WTF do you think it's about. Folks aren't protesting ANYHTING else going up around the area.... but they'll protest a Muslim center.

The ONLY common denominator is Islam, so OF COURSE that's why people are bitching. Most just won't admit it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



I'll break it down in smaller pieces...people I talk with DO NOT believe this statement:
"The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks."

That part "Islam alone" is gross over statement. Crazy rat bastard extremists is what we believe, and every religion has them it seems at some point.

We think this statement is laughable:
"According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims."
That part: "spoke for all Muslims." How could they speak for an entire religion? Popes do I guess, Imans maybe, but terrorists? A religion of terrorists? That's a bad joke right? People you know actually believe that?

If Islam were the main trigger then there wouldn't be 1200 mosques already in use. IT'S THE PLACE.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Surely the fact that the issue is that it's a Muslim building being put up near Ground Zero connects the two, thereby the Islamic religion. No, those statements aren't held by the majority, but there are DEFINITELY those who view the Islamic religion as the enemy and the cause of 9/11 and every other terrorist attack, via the "die fighting the enemy, get X number of virgins in hell" and stuff. It's valid; there are people who hate all Muslims BECAUSE they are Muslims and Muslims were responsible for 9/11.

And there ARE those who believe 9/11 was a statement by all Muslims...or at least all Muslims outside the US and a heckofalot of them inside.

Fanatacism is based on fear and on black-and-white thinking. If part of something is true, fear will convince people ALL of it is true. People who believe both of these things exist in America. Fact.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"IT'S THE PLACE"

Hello,

Do you advocate that the region near Ground Zero should be evacuated and un-developed, un-used? Is it that any use of these hallowed properties is inappropriate? Do you wish to designate the entire neighborhood as a historical monument to the tragedy of 9/11, where future generations can walk solemnly by and think introspective thoughts?

Because if it's the PLACE, that would seem to be the argument. Building ANYTHING in this PLACE is sacrilige and disrespectful. It is HALLOWED GROUND.

On the other hand, if you've got apartments, businesses, and a man with a cart selling Oscar Meyer Weiners, then it's not the PLACE, is it?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here you go, Pizmo. There's a movement to burn Korans on the anniversary of 9/11 in Florida:
Quote:

In the announcement on its Facebook page, The Dove World Outreach Center of Gainesville, Fla. asked other religious groups to join in standing "against the evil of Islam. Islam is of the devil!"

The Facebook event had received more than 1,500 "Like" recommendations by users late Friday, but had also been attacked with a number of threatening messages posted on the page and corresponding anti-Islam rants.

The church's pastor, Terry Jones -- who has written a book titled "Islam is of The Devil" and sells T-shirts bearing the same message -- defended the controversial event.

"Islam and Sharia law was responsible for 9/11," Jones told AFP.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/news/florida-church-to-burn-copies-of
-koran-to-mark-9-11-dpgonc-20100730-gc_8937270
Quote:

Islam was indeed responsible for 9/11 btw
http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/do-you-agree-with-trace-adkins-a
bout-the-mosque-near-ground-zero/question-1165609/?page=2


and
Quote:

Exactly the case with 9/11. Many, perhaps even most Muslims were appalled by the murders commited in the name of Islam. They were not guilty. But they were responsible.

Sorry, when we rightly understand the collective responsibility — not guilt — that governs our understanding of history, be it political or religious, we reject the simplistic, atomistic notion of the lily white innocence of moderate Muslims.

In fact, al-Qaida terrorists study Islamic texts, find proof for their actions in Islamic history and act in the name of Islam — including a mandate from some of its highest religious authorities.

http://ijn.com/editorial/1853-are-moderate-muslims-responsible-for-911
Quote:

Some wingnuts seem to believe ALL Muslims approved of the 9-11 attack
http://radamisto.blogspot.com/2010/08/reminder-of-muslim-reaction-to-9
-11.html


Yeah, wingnuts. But nonetheless, some people believe both satements.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:48 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"IT'S THE PLACE"

Hello,

Do you advocate that the region near Ground Zero should be evacuated and un-developed, un-used? Is it that any use of these hallowed properties is inappropriate? Do you wish to designate the entire neighborhood as a historical monument to the tragedy of 9/11, where future generations can walk solemnly by and think introspective thoughts?

Because if it's the PLACE, that would seem to be the argument. Building ANYTHING in this PLACE is sacrilige and disrespectful. It is HALLOWED GROUND.



That's your over simplification and generous extrapolation of what I said. Honestly, if you are interested in understanding and/or resolution (and by "you" I mean you and/or politicians) then you have to try and meet those that don't share your views half way. Otherwise it seems - like with AU and Kwicko - that debate, pure and simple and without resolution, is the true objective. Taking what someone says and replying, "then you must mean...." makes it seem like you want to argue and not problem solve. Hey, that's my take.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
On the other hand, if you've got apartments, businesses, and a man with a cart selling Oscar Meyer Weiners, then it's not the PLACE, is it?



Actually, that is also The Place, that is New York as it was before it got fucked up, those were already there, they were not yet to be built. However, if some extremist Oscar Meyer vendor drove his cart into the ground floor of one of the towers and blew it up then I'd have a problem with new ones in the area.

What about the 1200 existing mosques and their sign of religious tolerance? Doesn't that signify that the place may have something to do with it in this case?


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"However, if some extremist Oscar Meyer vendor drove his cart into the ground floor of one of the towers and blew it up then I'd have a problem with new ones in the area."

Hello,

Forgive me for saying so, but this perfectly illustrates the absurdity of this situation to me. We all know that Oscar Meyer is not responsible if some maniac Oscar Meyer salesman with a cart blows up a building. So to say you'd have a problem with an Oscar Meyer vendor operating near the site of the destruction years later illustrates exactly how illogical this seems to me and many others. Even if the Oscar Meyer vendor had screamed, "Wiener Ackbar, The philosophy of Sausage indicates you all must be ground up!" I still wouldn't blame Oscar Meyer, or insist that Oscar Meyer operate X distance away from the site of the terrorist attack.

"What about the 1200 existing mosques and their sign of religious tolerance? Doesn't that signify that the place may have something to do with it in this case?"

I think it implies the EVENT may have something to do with it. I think it implies that you and others are drawing a line of correlation between the vendor, his extreme act of destruction, and all Oscar Meyer employees. This Oscar Meyer store is not affiliated with the vendor who blew up the building. Sure, they both love hot dogs. The vendor may have even perpetrated his act of destruction because of his love of hot dogs. However, I think it's time we let the Oscar Meyer company peddle its hot dogs in peace.

I understand the irrationality of emotion. I understand fear and anger and sadness. I feel these things, too. However, I don't make it a point of principle to act on them, nor do I require others to accommodate them. I recognize these feelings as both normal and as my own burden. I try not to impose these natural human emotions on the people around me. It's not fair to them. If anyone is going to be allowed to do business, then we ought to let Oscar Meyer sell its hot dogs.

They're not being insensitive to us. We are being sensitive to them.

That's our burden to carry, not theirs.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:34 PM

HKCAVALIER


What he said. Beautifully put, Anthony.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Forgive me for saying so, but this perfectly illustrates the absurdity of this situation to me. We all know that Oscar Meyer is not responsible if some maniac Oscar Meyer salesman with a cart blows up a building. So to say you'd have a problem with an Oscar Meyer vendor operating near the site of the destruction years later illustrates exactly how illogical this seems to me and many others. Even if the Oscar Meyer vendor had screamed, "Wiener Ackbar, The philosophy of Sausage indicates you all must be ground up!" I still wouldn't blame Oscar Meyer, or insist that Oscar Meyer operate X distance away from the site of the terrorist attack.



I wouldn't blame Oscar Meyer either, nor do I blame Muslims or Islam for 9/11 directly. (I thought Penasaumike had an insightful post about the extremes of any religion are to be feared - that's another thread).
If, in our mad vendor scenario an Oscar Meyer cart blew up a tower then I think it very reasonable and prudent even, that there would be a moratorium on hotdog carts circling the remaining tower. Don't think Theory, think Reality. Was it just last year that Airforce One was seen circling lower Manhattan for a photo op that freaked people out?? I think people want more time.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"What about the 1200 existing mosques and their sign of religious tolerance? Doesn't that signify that the place may have something to do with it in this case?"

I think it implies the EVENT may have something to do with it. I think it implies that you and others are drawing a line of correlation between the vendor, his extreme act of destruction, and all Oscar Meyer employees. This Oscar Meyer store is not affiliated with the vendor who blew up the building. Sure, they both love hot dogs. The vendor may have even perpetrated his act of destruction because of his love of hot dogs. However, I think it's time we let the Oscar Meyer company peddle its hot dogs in peace.



I agree, the EVENT created that place. I can't speak for others, I can't speak for the terrorists either, but I personally don't connect Islam with Terror. But I really don't know Islamic teachings very well, so I go on faith that in it's purest form it is a religion of peace. I don't think anyone here really knows it well for that matter though.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I understand the irrationality of emotion. I understand fear and anger and sadness. I feel these things, too. However, I don't make it a point of principle to act on them, nor do I require others to accommodate them. I recognize these feelings as both normal and as my own burden. I try not to impose these natural human emotions on the people around me. It's not fair to them. If anyone is going to be allowed to do business, then we ought to let Oscar Meyer sell its hot dogs.

They're not being insensitive to us. We are being sensitive to them.

That's our burden to carry, not theirs.




I see this less black and white than you do, I think that's the one thing about having Theory dictate, is that it often leaves no room for context. I think we do let Oscar Meyer sell their Hot Dogs, 1200 factories across the US, we just ask Oscar Meyer to understand that in this place, this is not the right time for a $100,000,000 hot dog cart shrine/community center.


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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:00 AM

KANEMAN


I believe that any American that buys a piece of property legally has the right to do whatever they want(following LOCAL zoning laws, of course). That being said, sometimes for the good of the public "tact/wisdom" needs to be used or local law changed.

We had a porno chain that was zoned to build close to a school(well, at least the public outcry was it was to close to a school) The owners fought and won in court about the property. The zoning board has since changed zoning laws to make sure that doesn't happen.

What is my point? Well, seems that sometimes even though you have the right to do something, maybe it is not in the best interest of the public and/or enrages the public as to become provocation and shouldn't be done.

I do find it ironic that the same posters that had no problem with the government putting down sand and then stealing peoples beachfront property(for public good) seem to take the side of property rights in this matter. It seems they are always pro Islam in every debate. I have a couple of questions: Can you be consistent and have conviction on anything? Why such guilt towards Islam? Niki2 I get, she is from a crazy radical era and lives in the land of moon-bats it is out of her control she was programed to be a radical douche-bag ever since she started shitting in her diapers.

Be consistent people. You can't want government to be able to tell someone they have to buy health insurance and out of the other side of your mouth say someone has property rights. If we don't own our bodies how the fuck can we have property rights? If we don't have ownership over our money, how can we have property rights? Seems it's one or the other

.......Just one man's opinion.




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