REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hitchens: Mosque a one-way test of tolerance?

POSTED BY: MINCINGBEAST
UPDATED: Friday, August 27, 2010 13:00
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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:42 PM

MINCINGBEAST


I gleefully share STDs, and bad news; having neither, I though I'd share the following article. It will make nobody happy, I hope.

Christopher Hitchens finds the furor over Cordoba Mosque to be beneath contempt, and the people who are opposed to Mosque to in general be idiotic and revolting. Wow, so do I!

He also, however, has nothing positive to say about Imam Rauf and the planners of the putative mosque. Hitch's position articulates my feeling on the issue: it is a phony, made up controversy, but on second thought, Rauf is quite a turd.

Consider:

Quote:

From the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets.


My favorite quote, however:

Quote:

As for the gorgeous mosaic of religious pluralism, it's easy enough to find mosque Web sites and DVDs that peddle the most disgusting attacks on Jews, Hindus, Christians, unbelievers, and other Muslims—to say nothing of insane diatribes about women and homosexuals. This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic." A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational.


Anyway, I encourage you to read the entire piece, kindly disregard that the Hitch supported the Iraq invasion, and then bow down before the 21st century's Jonathan Swift.

http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/


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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:56 PM

CHRISISALL


Islam, like Judaism & Christianity must be relegated to the past. Superstitions have little place in the 21st Century, 'cept to cause more trouble IMO.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:01 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Agreed; I find religion to be loathsome, because I am a smug atheist. All religion, but for worship of Satan, because that is just rad.

However, Christianity and Judaism have at least had to accommodate (or gasp...tolerate) secularism for some time. I believe most Christians no longer long for the days of crusades and witch-burning, even if they struggle to teach children creationism in public schools. Not sure about Muslims, however, though this is likely just my racism and Islam-o-phobia given voice.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:01 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

One may not always agree with Mr. Hitchens, but he does have a way with words. There is nothing here I find particularly objectionable.

He acknowledges that the furor is witless, that some articles and practices of the Islamic faith are troubling, and encourages the visionary behind the community center to explore tolerance within himself. The idea being, presumably, that a true bridge requires movement by both sides towards a middle.

I wish all commentaries on this issue were as even-handed.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sounds like Hitch is criticizing the manner in which the protests have been delivered, and not so much offering any support FOR the mosque being built.

I agree w/ Hitchens that Newt's attempted comparison of the Nazis and Japanese both missed the mark, badly.

As likely is the case with so many talking heads, sometimes the desire keep talking ends up just being a sad over reach, that only makes matters worse.

Newt's never short on words. He likes to hear himself talk. Sometimes, he offers some rather interesting and historical insight. Others, he's padding his air time.






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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:47 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Christianity and Judaism have at least had to accommodate (or gasp...tolerate) secularism for some time.
So has Islam...did you read the material put up on the historical shift from religious rule to secular? It's been there for a loooong time, is nothing new and refutes your inference that Islam hasn't accommodated secularism.

I find considerable difference between islamophobia, anti-islam, and people who disagree with the COMMUNITY CENTER for reasons of supposed "sensitivity", etc. I don't like the word, but I don't think every disagreement with Islam comes down to Islamophobia.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:58 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There are Christian churches in Iraq, have been for centuries. Yes, they're being attacked now, but before that, there was "tolerance".

Catholic churches in Iraq: http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/directory.cfm?fuseaction=show_coun
try&country=IQ


Evangelical churches in Iraq: http://www.worthylinks.com/view/2304

There are two synagogues in Iraq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Synagogue_of_Baghdad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Taweig_Synagogue

But of course, Muslims aren't tolerant.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 5:15 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
So has Islam...did you read the material put up on the historical shift from religious rule to secular? It's been there for a loooong time, is nothing new and refutes your inference that Islam hasn't accommodated secularism.



Yet there has been a pretty good expansion of Sharia law in Asia and Africa. Even attempts to get European governments to allow it for their Muslim populations. Not sure how that fits in with secularism.

There was also an interesting article in Sunday's Washington Post about the hard-line Islamic schools and congregations popping up in the Somali refugee communities in Kenya.

Quote:


NAIROBI -- Behind the blue gates of his Islamic school in Nairobi's Eastleigh neighborhood, Ahmed Awil cannot escape his country's civil war.

Schools and mosques where extremist views are taught are reshaping this Somali immigrant community that for years has lived peacefully in the capital of this predominantly Christian country. Moderate imams now compete with hard-line preachers pushing a strict interpretation of Islam. Bookstores sell anti-Western literature. Residents speak fearfully of militant spies, and children like Ahmed are taught to praise al-Shabab, an al-Qaeda-linked militia, for waging jihad in Somalia against the U.S.-backed government.

"My teachers tell us al-Shabab is fighting for our religion and for our country," said Ahmed, a skinny 11-year-old who fled Somalia after al-Shabab fighters slaughtered his neighbor and tried to recruit him. "Sometimes they ask us if we would like to go there and fight."

Eastleigh, a run-down enclave where tens of thousands of Somalis live, has become an incubator for Islamic extremism, Kenyan officials and community leaders say. It has also emerged as a micro-battlefield in the war on terrorism, attracting American funds.

"What most worries me is that this extremist ideology will continue to grow," said Dualle Abdi Malik, the director of Fathu Rahman, a moderate Islamic school. "We have to confront it before it is too late."

Somali immigrant communities across the Horn of Africa and Yemen have come under greater scrutiny since twin bombings last month targeted World Cup soccer fans in the Ugandan capital of Kampala. Al-Shabab asserted responsibility for the attacks, its first major international operation since it rose to power several years ago in Somalia.

Members of al-Shabab, which in Arabic means "The Youth," and other Somali militants freely travel to Nairobi to raise funds, recruit and treat wounded fighters, according to U.N. and Kenyan security officials. Somali-American jihadists have met contacts in Eastleigh before heading to Somalia to fight with al-Shabab.

"Eastleigh is a copy of Mogadishu," said Mohamed Omar Dalha, Somalia's social affairs minister, referring to the Somali capital. "Everything that happens in Mogadishu happens in Eastleigh, except the fighting."

Fertile ground for radicals

At the al-Huda Islamic bookshop, a closet-sized stall nestled near one of Eastleigh's radical mosques, several youths browsed the fare on a recent day. Koranic tomes pack the shelves. Recordings of lectures and debates that glorify the neighborhood's radical Somali preachers are sold openly.

"Our religion calls on us to kill everyone who does not believe in Allah and his Prophet Muhammed deeply," Abdulrahman Abdullahi, a black-clad imam, declares in one DVD.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/21/AR2010
082102682.html


Somehow, "Our religion calls on us to kill everyone who does not believe in Allah and his Prophet Muhammed deeply," doesn't jibe with "religion of peace". I realize that not all Muslims feel this way, certainly not anywhere near a majority, but there's a pretty good number who do - and are willing to carry out those killings of the unbelievers. This is pretty obvious in the number of bombings by radical Muslims of civilian targets throughout Asia and Africa.




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 23, 2010 5:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Yet there has been a pretty good expansion of Sharia law in Asia and Africa."

Hello,

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently. In my opinion, rights of homosexual persons have been retarded in this country largely due to sentiments borrowed from religion, and that religion is not the Muslim faith.

The law at least assures us that homosexuals are not attacked or penalized for their practices. This law has had a civilizing effect on the Christian and Mormon faiths, who may otherwise heed calls from fundamentalists to view such persons as worthless sinners below contempt.

I expect the law of our land will continue to migrate towards fairness and tolerance, and hence will have a civilizing effect on Islam as surely as it has civilized Catholics, Puritans, Mormons, and other religions who preceded it.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 5:31 PM

MINCINGBEAST


No Niki2, they're not. That Christians suffered miserable oppression for centuries in Iraq, as opposed to summary genocide, does not evidence tolerance so much as institutionalized degradation. See generally Copts in Egypt...quite a dandy little bit of religious tolerance and pluralism? Also, may I build a synagogue in Mecca, please?

Nothing particular about Islam, no one is particularly tolerant; had the Reformation and Enlightenment not largely de-fanged christianity, this equivocation would be less silly.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 6:09 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Yet there has been a pretty good expansion of Sharia law in Asia and Africa."

Hello,

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently.



I have never agreed with you before, and I may never agree with you again, but I agree with you now. It sort of tickles.

I have no desire to live under Sharia law; I'd rather not be subject to Leviticus, either, or even the Code of Hammurabi. But practically, right wing Christian zealots are a more immediate threat to my delicate sensibilities than Sharia. See generally abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 2:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ayep, Mince has a point there indeed.

Also, one might recall that that the primary motivator in the region for secularism and seperation of church and state was Saddam Hussien, and we left him swingin from a rope.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero

Frankly, these assholes NEED each other, the fanatic Muslims and Christian zealots, cause each one points to the other as the handy "external enemy" and "outside threat" to wind up their own collective - without which many of em would start to question why the hell they're listening to such murderous nutters, and exactly how religions which have never left any lasting legacy beyond piles of innocent corpses are any kind of benefit to humankind.

Especially when they're completely willing to destroy this world in pursuit of some pie-in-the-sky afterlife offered by a being well known to be a notorious sadist and liar.

One might question the motives of said being when the purpose of humanity, it's whole existence, seems to be to suffer as greatly as possible, aided by the followers of said belief in every way possible, in order to succor a being which appears to feed on misery like a junkie feeds on smack.

I myself wouldn't be surprised if those mythical pearly gates opened over a fiery pit, to the howling, gleeful laughter of the monster that they worship - given that anything else would be a radical departure from every single example of that beings behavior known to man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltheism

Me now, I guess you could say.. "I'm a fan.. of man!".

Mankind, us, here and now, not some silly faery tale told to us in order to encourage us not to question our own suffering, not to look at our own chains...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:20 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

Christianity and Judaism have at least had to accommodate (or gasp...tolerate) secularism for some time.
So has Islam...did you read the material put up on the historical shift from religious rule to secular? It's been there for a loooong time, is nothing new and refutes your inference that Islam hasn't accommodated secularism.

I find considerable difference between islamophobia, anti-islam, and people who disagree with the COMMUNITY CENTER for reasons of supposed "sensitivity", etc. I don't like the word, but I don't think every disagreement with Islam comes down to Islamophobia.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off







Statements like this are the reason I call you an idiot....

RIVERLOVE.."I forgot that gem Kman. Good to see you here battling the crazies. I was away for a spell, and I'm playing ketchup"

KANEMAN.."RIVERLOVE I think you meant catsup:


Kwicko.."By the way, you both got "catch up" wrong. So among the other things you're exactly the same at is your stupidity".

TELL ME THIS BOY IS NOT DUMB....My work here will be short lived....






























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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:23 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Yet there has been a pretty good expansion of Sharia law in Asia and Africa."

Hello,

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently.



I have never agreed with you before, and I may never agree with you again, but I agree with you now. It sort of tickles.

I have no desire to live under Sharia law; I'd rather not be subject to Leviticus, either, or even the Code of Hammurabi. But practically, right wing Christian zealots are a more immediate threat to my delicate sensibilities than Sharia. See generally abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage.



Does this make you evil? Agreeing with the agree to disagree king. I think so. I will see you in hell.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Yet there has been a pretty good expansion of Sharia law in Asia and Africa."

Hello,

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently. In my opinion, rights of homosexual persons have been retarded in this country largely due to sentiments borrowed from religion, and that religion is not the Muslim faith.



There's no doubt that the more fundamental Christians have held back the rights of gay folk in the U.S. and other countries where the fundamentalists exist. I wish they'd give it up.

There's also no doubt that there are plenty of Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and adherents of other religions, who accept homosexuals as equals deserving of equal rights.

That being said, homophobic Christians generally express their prejudices through political and legal means, rather than excutions ordered by religious courts and "honor killings".


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I'd like to buy beer in grocery and convenience stores on Sundays here. I can't.


Thanks, fundies.






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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"That being said, homophobic Christians generally express their prejudices through political and legal means, rather than excutions ordered by religious courts and "honor killings". "

Hello,

It is only our nation's laws which come between homophobes and murder, or homophobia and wide discrimination.

You do realize that other religions have the same dark histories as Islam? But the march towards fairness in law has forced them to adapt.

Do you think our Nation's principles are strong enough to curtail every religion except for Islam? Is there a special quality about the Islamic faith that makes them impervious to the civilizing force of the Constitution?

No, any Muslims who come to the U.S. will be altered in the same way as the other fundamentalist religions who have come here or been born here. They will be forced, perhaps kicking and screaming, into the future.

The best way to bring them into that future is to emphatically give them not only all the law's restrictions, but also its boons.

When we give in to hysterics, it makes our claims to be more civilized seem suspect. It delays the process.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer,
Quote:

I realize that not all Muslims feel this way, certainly not anywhere near a majority, but there's a pretty good number who do
If you can provide facts and figures showing the kind of large numbers you infer, perhaps we can debate it. I don’t think the number of those believing that way, especially in America, are that large.

Also, what was quoted about the religion is totally false. It is a representation of those who want to turn the actual teachings of Islam into something else to further their own agenda. Ergo it is manipulation of those who believe in the religion, not the actual tenants of the religion itself.

I agree with Anthony that
Quote:

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently. In my opinion, rights of homosexual persons have been retarded in this country largely due to sentiments borrowed from religion
—the CHRISTIAN religion, note, which has been manipulated in the same way to further the agenda of those deliberately misinterpreting the religion to inspire hate and intolerance, not the tenants of the religion itself. As such, I agree with Anthony:
Quote:

I am more concerned with the influence of Christian law and principles on our country currently.
And Frem:
Quote:

Frankly, these assholes NEED each other, the fanatic Muslims and Christian zealots, cause each one points to the other as the handy "external enemy" and "outside threat" to wind up their own collective - without which many of em would start to question why the hell they're listening to such murderous nutters...
As to the quoted statements by Kane and RL pointing to ME being an idiot, there is no correlation.

Excellently said, Anthony:
Quote:

No, any Muslims who come to the U.S. will be altered in the same way as the other fundamentalist religions who have come here or been born here. They will be forced, perhaps kicking and screaming, into the future.

The best way to bring them into that future is to emphatically give them not only all the law's restrictions, but also its boons.

When we give in to hysterics, it makes our claims to be more civilized seem suspect. It delays the process.

Yes, Muslims come here and cling to their traditions, but their children and children’s children will evolve. It is the way of humans, however long or short it comes, that succeeding generations come to think for themselves. A perfect example is that previous generations viewed homosexuality with abhorrence and made laws against its very existence in this country, while facts show that current generations in large majority find it quite tolerable. So too will it be with the Muslims here, and subsequently their influence on other Muslims, however long it may take. That is what I have observed and believe the future will bring.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Somehow, "Our religion calls on us to kill everyone who does not believe in Allah and his Prophet Muhammed deeply," doesn't jibe with "religion of peace". I realize that not all Muslims feel this way, certainly not anywhere near a majority, but there's a pretty good number who do - and are willing to carry out those killings of the unbelievers. This is pretty obvious in the number of bombings by radical Muslims of civilian targets throughout Asia and Africa.




Although there are plenty enough Christians who believe the same crap, and want to stick pretty closely to a lot of the garbage in the Old Testament, none of which jibes with Christianity as any kind of "peaceful" religion. I realize that not all Christians feel this way, but there's a pretty good number who do - and are willing to kill the unbelievers. This is pretty obvious in the number of bombing of abortion clinics and the murders of doctors who perform legal abortions and the murders of gays like Matthew Shepard.

Shall we put a moratorium on building any new churches in the U.S.?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One of the points I find particularly insidious about mosque supporters is their notion that building this "community center" will promote understanding between religions.

Do Muslim supported REALLY want to promote better understanding and create bonds of sympathy??? Then move the friggin' building someplace else.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:17 PM

HKCAVALIER


If the Community Center were proposed last week you MIGHT have a point, Signy, but it was proposed last YEAR and no one opposed it until now. Why is that? It was in the news a year ago and no one cared. Fox News and Glenn Beck all gave it their blessing.

I presume some amount of finances have been spent on building at its current location in the meantime, so it's not the simple "whoops, sorry, didn't mean to offend" situation you're painting here. Now it's more of a "What the heck is wrong with you people? Why should we move now?" situation. Are the so-called sensitive people who oppose this to be held accountable in the least for moving the goalpost whenever they choose? 9/11 still hurts, move the mosque! 9/11 still hurts, no more mosques! 9/11 still hurts, amend the constitution so we can persecute Muslims!

Don't you see? This backlash functions exactly like the Republican Party these days. NOTHING is gonna please these folks. It's not the building that is the problem, never was, it's the wrong people building it. Wrong, because they happen to belong to the same religion--a religion of some 1.66 billion people--as 13 demonstrably psychotic madmen.

If this really were about 9/11 at all, then you'd think the "wound" would have been worse a year ago than it is today. But quite the opposite. It can't be that it has anything to do with it being the summer of an election year, can it? A chronic condition that flairs up every 2 years and subsides in the middle of November?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Although there are plenty enough Christians who believe the same crap, and want to stick pretty closely to a lot of the garbage in the Old Testament, none of which jibes with Christianity as any kind of "peaceful" religion. I realize that not all Christians feel this way, but there's a pretty good number who do - and are willing to kill the unbelievers. This is pretty obvious in the number of bombing of abortion clinics and the murders of doctors who perform legal abortions and the murders of gays like Matthew Shepard.

Shall we put a moratorium on building any new churches in the U.S.?



Matthew Shepard ? Really? Abortion bombing killings ? How far back are you going here ? Islam murders more in one week than Christianity does in a ' busy ' decade.

You apologists for Islam, the equivalency crowd, are looking through the wrong end of the perspective scope. That little hill you see, way off in the distance ? That's a gigantic volcano, and you're standing at its base.

When's the last time any fundie Christians stoned a young couple to death, for the unpardonable sin of eloping ? Or sought to sever the spinal cord of a man, in the name of " an eye for an eye " justice ?

Sorry, McVeigh wasn't a "christian" terrorist, and your attempts to paint any other religion as being in the ball park w/ Islam when it comes to blood spilled and violence have absolutely no basis in fact.

Sure, travel back in time, you might be able make your case, but we're not living 100's or a 1000 years ago. Only Islam is carrying on that horrific tradition.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Although there are plenty enough Christians who believe the same crap, and want to stick pretty closely to a lot of the garbage in the Old Testament, none of which jibes with Christianity as any kind of "peaceful" religion. I realize that not all Christians feel this way, but there's a pretty good number who do - and are willing to kill the unbelievers. This is pretty obvious in the number of bombing of abortion clinics and the murders of doctors who perform legal abortions and the murders of gays like Matthew Shepard.



Hello Mike,

Someone is probably about to tell you that Christians aren't that bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

That person will probably then tell you that the people described in the cite above aren't real Christians.

Then you'll probably have to explain to them that many Muslims don't consider terrorists and suicidists to be real Muslims.

Then they'll probably tell you, "Well, sure, but that's just one example."

You'll subsequently remind them about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28USA%29

And they'll say, "You mentioned that already earlier, how about ANOTHER example?"

And you'll reply, "How about these guys?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lambs_of_Christ

And they'll say, "Come on, they're not even terrorists. One guy went nuts and murdered someone. How does that blacken a whole organization, or Christianity at large for that matter?"

And then you'll say...

"It doesn't."

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Hell, don't forget William Krar, there...

Of course, I acknowledge a certain bias regarding religion and tolerance, but a great part of that is having it dashed in my face all day, every day.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:52 PM

CATPIRATE


I am putting plans together for a KKK monument near MLK's gravesite. I don't think that is to insensitive. You are terrorist supporter or a usefull idiot. But if ya do understand Islam you would know why they want a mosque, community center, safe house, or just muslim fun house there. I love the community center on Russel Road in Las Vegas near the airport, guards, bobbed wired, and all them dirty rag heads with their big frowns on.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:52 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
When's the last time any fundie Christians stoned a young couple to death, for the unpardonable sin of eloping ? Or sought to sever the spinal cord of a man, in the name of " an eye for an eye " justice ?

I'd say it was the last time Christianity was run as a theocratic empire. You see this as a characteristic of Islam. I see it as a characteristic of theocracy and totalitarianism.

You paint Islam as evil, and I'll agree that there is much evil done in it's name by theocratic dictators and cave dwelling wannabe's. but there are over a million Muslims in this country (possibly several million) and not one of them has stoned a soul. And I am quite confident that none ever will. Even the crazy ones you so fondly fetishize have tended to use guns and bombs, just like any other American psycho would.

You never quite got that whole Colbert Report joke about bears being the greatest threat, did you? Yes, a bear standing in front of you is the biggest threat you'll prolly face that day. But if the bear is thousands of miles away in the middle of an impassible wilderness, it's not really a threat, is it?

The Muslim threat in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan is great. The Muslim threat in lower Manhattan is virtually nonexistent. Not because there are no Muslims there, but because there is no theocratic dictatorship there.

The business of a secular government is to assess threat and then act accordingly. Threat is relative and extremely conditional. The vast majority of Muslims in this country pose no more threat than the general population. I see absolutely no conditions under which the proposed Community Center would become itself a threat to public order. I see that threat coming squarely from the opposite direction.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:56 PM

CATPIRATE


HK, what about honor killings in America and the UK. Now I know that has been going on awhile. The muslim community covers for them.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


HK - No, I seldom bother w/ the Colbert Report, or John Stewart, for that matter. Funny? Hell yes, but they tend to distort the issues so much, it's a waste of my time. Certainly on matters such as comparing bears to Muslims.

Unless the point is to suggest that it's just in the nature of Muslims to sometimes maim and slaughter innocent people, but most the time they're really quite gentle..... which I reject, out of hand.

Bears aren't people. ( Then again, radical religious zealots might not be people either )






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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:54 AM

JONGSSTRAW


got off topic, moved to new thread

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:15 AM

KANEMAN


Why do Islam center supporters keep bringing Christians into the debate. Most people against this are just Americans who think Islam attacked us and don't want it. I am sure if we took a poll most are like myself and don't believe in any god. It is almost like disagreeing with Obama and Bush gets brought into it.

I don't think it should be built there because it is a rift between religions and bothers nonreligious Americans that are sick and tired of religions being the cause of so much shit around the world. I can see the Muslims using it as a site that honors the attack and see it as provoking Christians and others. So, when you see a bully picking a fight in the playground, sensible adults step in and stop it. We don't pick sides and cheer one on against the other. This religious shit has to stop. Christians are not calling for crusades. Islam is calling for Jihad....Both are hilariously lame and should not be tolerated by the majority of science minded people who know they are all idiots.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:20 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic." A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational.

Islamophobia is just as valid as a term as arachnophobia - spiders have some rare, deadly varieties. But hysterical, all-consuming fear of every perfectly harmless innocent-looking spider IS irrational. Some people obsess over the poisonous types, and cannot tell the difference between the ordinary types. So I will continue to resist Islamophobes like Auraptor/RiverLove etc - and now also Islamophobiaphobes, like Hitchens.

Quote:

From the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets.

I find the horror (I'm thinking more of 'raptor's video in the other thread) at Rauf's pretty standard (and tame) international-Muslim-worldview a little strange... The only Muslims who have a rosy/friendly view of America are American Muslims (mainly just because they have first-hand experience of America). To foreign Muslims America is the bad guy, the great Satan, the oppressor of Muslims everywhere. Perhaps you're liked a little better than Israel. A majority of British Muslims poll as believing 9-11 was not perpetrated by muslims; more moderate ones will have a Fahrenheit 911-type view.

I hate it, but that's the way it is, around the world. How do you correct it? I don't know, but you can't build bridges with people only on your side of the river. People like Rauf are part of the solution, even if they are to some extent a perpetuation of the problem.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 8:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I find the horror (I'm thinking more of 'raptor's video in the other thread) at Rauf's pretty standard (and tame) international-Muslim-worldview a little strange... The only Muslims who have a rosy/friendly view of America are American Muslims (mainly just because they have first-hand experience of America). To foreign Muslims America is the bad guy, the great Satan, the oppressor of Muslims everywhere. Perhaps you're liked a little better than Israel. A majority of British Muslims poll as believing 9-11 was not perpetrated by muslims; more moderate ones will have a Fahrenheit 911-type view.

I hate it, but that's the way it is, around the world. How do you correct it? I don't know, but you can't build bridges with people only on your side of the river. People like Rauf are part of the solution, even if they are to some extent a perpetuation of the problem.


Exactly!

I always wonder how it never occurs to folk that maybe if WE STOPPED PLAYING INTO THAT PERCEPTION, these dolts would have a lot less traction trying to sell that line of shit to their fellows.

But here's the rub, just like Hamas and the Likud, the corrupt assholes at the top on both sides NEED each other - they know full and well they're provoking it, it's deliberate, cause it gives the american leaders cause to run up the fear and panic factor, playing on the knee jerk and preventing the population from thinkin it over and goin "Yanno what, this is fuckin stupid!" - and the talitubbies and related fanatics, they're playing the SAME DAMN GAME, using the threat WE present to THEM in exactly the same fashion, which at any time we could simply step back and stop playing along, but our leaders won't do that cause it would lead to the people QUESTIONING that huge chunk of corporate welfare that is our "Defense" budget, QUESTIONING what our purpose, if there ever was one, happens to be having troops over there anyway, QUESTIONING the *motivations* of those in power, and they don't care for that so much, you see ?

The leaders on both sides know this is all bullshit, you don't see THEM risking their own necks while exhorting fools to die, and then playing on the deaths they caused as some kinda justification for an endless, useless cycle of revenge, bloodshed and carnage which just so happens to keep them in unquestioned power, how convenient, right ?

BOTH sides are playing us - not only the leaders of the fanatic Islam factions, giggling up their sleeve at how easy it is to provoke us to either total panic, or massive overreaction, but our OWN leaders are complicity too, using that knee-jerk-freakout, even encouraging it, as a swift path to POWER.

And that, people, is what this, all of this, is really about.

Seriously, do you even KNOW these people ?
Do they even KNOW you ?

What could they, or you, have possibly done to each other to justify such hatred, is it simply that they exist ?

WHY DOES THIS SHIT MATTER - save that some asshole *wants* it to matter to you, to munge up your reason and allow them to manipulate you.

My chances of meeting any of the persons involved in this community center, much less having one single whit of hostile interaction with em of any kind are less than one in a million, so I ask you, WHY SHOULD I CARE ?

In fact the only reason I do at all is because the situation highlights the utter lack of respect for any religion other than christianity in america, right down to ignoring the freakin constitution if necessary - hell, it kinda reminds me of one of the original state/colony constitutions which more or less said you could practice christianity in any way you wanted, which while a noteable step forward, wasn't exactly the religious tolerance it was heralded as since the puritans went and persecuted every damn body else, particularly the quakers, and really went overboard on that shit towards the natives...

It wasn't till the constitutional convention and the involvement of some seriously hardcore deists that ACTUAL religious freedom became a major issue, but while the words on paper say one thing, our actions in that respect reveal it as mere lip service.

Seriously, TRY getting a tax break for a non-mainstream religion, and count the non-christian organisations which recieve "faith-based" charity funding, oh wait, that ones easy... NONE.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/char_choi.htm

Anyhows, the leaders on both sides are fulla shit, and winding us all up against each other for power, is what it is, and in the process, highlighting our own hypocrisy for not even holding to our OWN most treasured laws.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 8:59 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Beware of TLDR.

The mosque is a non-issue, but is is interesting as a symptom of West/Islam relations. Eventually, the West and Islam will have to come to terms with each other. Being a Westerner who is fond of dogs, alcohol, homos, and loose women, I tend to err on the side of the West. Rauf is not especially relevant to this process.

Rauf is an entertainer, in that he has made a living by giving audiences what they want. He offers militant muslims the blood and angst they crave (incidentally, this is the same crap that wicked righties desire and expect from them); he gives western sissies the lavender and plushy pluralistic rhetoric they hunger for. This approach will not help the West and Islam reach any sort of accomodation--it will only delay the inevitable, and painful realization that the two offer incompatible ways of living and that both will have to adjust.

Because I an Islamophobe, I hope that means our liberal standards spreading to them, as opposed to their quaint 7th notions spreading to us.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 1:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, the idea that because Muslims might want to build bridges, they should abrogate the rights they, AS AMERICANS, have in order to placate people who have been brainwashed and have no desire to stand by the Constitution upon which the country was founded. That’s saying “yes, you’re right, because of my religion I am less than you, I don’t deserve the same rights”. I know you won’t see that, but it’s what I believe.

Raptor, the mere fact that you view people trying to bring perspective to the debate as “apologizing” for Islam is a clear indicator that you are the one seeing things through the wrong end of the scope. See that little group of ants jumping up and down in opposition? It’s actually a gigantic crowd of intolerance and brainwashing, which, if you continue to see as little ants, can easily run you over and cause death and destruction around you, as well as damage what America stands for and make us as small as the “little hill”, which others of us see as a huge, towering edifice of decency and fairness. If we’re deluded, it’s because we did see that edifice through the right end of the scope, which nonetheless made it appear closer than it is in reality. Things like what is happening in America today show that the mountain is further away and less attainable than we once thought.

Your arguments fail in that it’s not about stonings and killings; it’s about a COMMUNITY CENTER which has been blown up into something it’s not, that has been used to foster fear, and via that, hatred. It’s been blown up into what you see as a mountain, but as a representation of a mountain, it is an illusion created FOR YOU by people who WANT you to fear, to hate, because it furthers what THEY want to achieve.

Congrats, Anthony. You called it, and it was made easy for you because this has gone ‘round and ‘round in just that fashion, never to end apparently until everyone gets bored with repeating themselves and finds something else to argue about.

Cav nails it again for me. Let Christianity be a theocracy and see what happens. No, don’t, jezus it would be awful!

As to why we bring Christianity into the debate, as I’ve explained several times, the fear, the denigration and the ugliness are directed at ISLAM, a religion which is being painted as a “terrorist cult”, essentially. We have been trying to make the point that ALL religions can be utilized to stir up fear and hatred, even Christianity. Obviously it’s not getting through, or else the necessity of seeing Christianity with clean hands is so ingrained that to admit any Christian ever did ANYTHING bad cannot be imagined. But I think you’d find that if the argument were against terrorists, there’d be no argument. The push right now is to OUTLAW the practice of Islam...it’s not just “getting to that point”, it’s already being proposed: No mosques; local ordinance getting rid of a mosque, make the practice of Islamic religion illegal...it will grow unless people can grasp some kind of perspective that it’s NOT Islam, it’s NOT the millions of Muslims in the world, it’s a teeny tiny minority of extremists.

KPO, you nailed it, in my opinion:
Quote:

Islamophobia is just as valid as a term as arachnophobia - spiders have some rare, deadly varieties. But hysterical, all-consuming fear of every perfectly harmless innocent-looking spider IS irrational. Some people obsess over the poisonous types, and cannot tell the difference between the ordinary types. So I will continue to resist Islamophobes like Auraptor/RiverLove etc - and now also Islamophobiaphobes, like Hitchens.
As to
Quote:

the sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza
There is nothing sinister about the FACT that our government and military’s oppression, invasion, atrocities and terrible acts contributed to the FEAR and hatred of Americans which was utilized to create the horror of 9/11. It is definitely not the only reason, but it was contributory.

U.S. foreign policy was one of the root causes that led to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. It was, IN PART, a response for U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. They did not attack us just because they are Muslim, but rather because of the way they perceive our actions in their region to be unjust. It’s also because of Israel, who we have unquestioningly backed and overlooked THEIR atrocities. More than half Canadians blame American foreign policy in part on 9/11
Quote:

According to a new poll, a majority of people surveyed in six European countries believe American foreign policy is partly to blame for the Sept. 11 attacks.

Researchers interviewed people in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Poland for the survey, which was done for the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations and the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

The French were most critical of U.S. foreign policy, with 63 percent saying U.S. foreign policy was partly to blame for the attacks. The Italians were the least critical - 51 percent of them blamed U.S. policy for Sept. 11.

Among the other four countries, 57 percent of Britons, 52 percent of Germans, 59 percent of Dutch and 54 percent of Poles saw such a connection.

Marshall Bouton, president of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations, said Tuesday the poll found that many Europeans also disagreed with how the United States has handled conflicts in the Middle East.

Bouton said when he was in France that some residents told him they perceive American policy as anti-Muslim.

They believe "it has provided the sea in which the terrorist can swim, so to speak," he said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/28/september11/main520058.shtml

It’s not vital to us what the rest of the world thinks, but given they see things from a more objective point of view than we do in this country when it comes to our actions, and that we rarely heard anyone make the connection between how we behave out in the world and the possibility that some may resent it so much that, along with other factors, it seems to them to provide justification for attacking us.
Quote:

The simmering discussion of what role, if any, U.S. foreign policy may routinely play in bringing contempt and hatred down on America was bullied out of the marketplace in the wake of 9/11 by the contention that any criticism of foreign policy amounted to being an apologist for terrorism or a knee-jerk, blame-America-first type.

Suggesting that U.S. foreign policy, and specifically its intrusive and interventionist character, was a contributing factor to the terror attacks is not to apologize for terrorism. Even if Al Qaeda’s cause were as “just and pure” as, say, Woodrow Wilson’s, nothing can justify that kind of wanton destruction, that deliberate attack on innocents who had nothing to do with creating your real or imagined grievances. I don’t know anybody who was not outraged.

If we really want to reduce our vulnerability to terrorism, however, surely it cannot be out of bounds to try to understand the rage, madness, twisted ideas or whatever that motivates terrorists. If we discover, as I’m convinced we will, that U.S. foreign policy contributed to that rage, we might well not change it. Life is full of trade-offs, and after assessing the risks and benefits we might well decide that a terrorist attack now and then is an acceptable price for being the acknowledged sole superpower and the bringer of truth and enlightenment to the places in the world where democracy and healthy markets have yet to be established. But we should discuss the risks and benefits openly, assuming that perfection is not to be found in this world and any policy will have both advantages and drawbacks.

Whether or not 9/11 can be classified strictly as “blowback”—the CIA-originated term for the unfortunate, sometimes unforeseen, sometimes violent or tragic results that accompany any operation, even a successful one, which Chalmers Johnson took for the title of his recent, pre-9/11 book criticizing U.S. foreign policy—U.S. foreign policy did play some role in motivating the attacks. Osama bin Laden, in statements prior to 9/11, specifically listed the presence of U.S. troops and bases in the land containing Mecca and other holy Islamic places as one of his grievances. Whether it was a real motivator or a pretext might be impossible to know without psychological analysis, but it’s got to be significant that he mentioned it. We know and have known that U.S. policy toward Israel—which I believe has been less lockstep than some critics claim but might be described as support-with-kvetching—angers many Muslims.

The United States has troops in more than 130 countries and interests and facilities virtually everywhere. It may well be unfair that others resent us, and it is undoubtedly true that resentment against the United States is stirred up and manipulated by ambitious and unscrupulous political opportunists. But fair or not, those resentments are there and are not likely to disappear. They are part of the price of empire, hegemony, success, desire to share benefits, great achievement, or whatever term you use to describe the U.S.’s place in the post-cold-war world. Any mature, reflective person, any leader with a smattering of historical understanding should know this.

It turns out—as pointed out by Independent Institute senior fellow Ivan Eland prior to 9/11 and based on Department of Defense studies—that the presence of heavy concentrations of U.S. troops, positions, or activity in some part of the world is closely correlated with increased terrorist activity. It’s hardly a surprise. The presence of a foreign power, even a perfectly benevolent one, will breed local resentment. The Defense Department knows this—they studied it first to put numbers and values on a phenomenon they knew intuitively was present.

The danger is when instead of acts of self-defense, such efforts become interventionist crusades abroad and the muzzling of debate and opinion at home. America’s Founders fought an empire in order to create a republic, and they were firmly opposed to re-creating a new empire, with the requisite foreign adventures, entangling alliances, and tyrannical policies. We would be wise indeed to take their advice now in dealing with terrorism and end U.S. interventionism.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1947.htm

There is your answer as to “blame”...and “blame” is the wrong word; better to say there were aspects of our foreign policy which CONTRIBUTED to the hatred that inspired 9/11. That IS accurate.

That last is, as far as I'm concerned, a non-partisan dissection of how our foreign policy INFLUENCED the rabid mentality that took it upon itself to attack the "monster" they perceived as overshadowing and endangering them.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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