REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There is no proposed mosque at Ground Zero

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 19:52
SHORT URL:
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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interestingly, an orthodox American Christian would do the same, and approved of the Taliban’s actions:
Quote:

They blew up the statues because they considered them pagan idols.

When the Savior returns (book or Revelation) to establish his Kingdom, guess what? He will destroy all pagan relics also. They are reminders of a pagan falsehoods that will not be tolerated in his kingdom.

Gee, there appear to be American Christians who APPROVED of the destruction of the Buddha. Ergo, there are Christians who would happily blow up statues of Buddha and every other representation of every other religion if they could. That makes "us" better than Islam exactly how?

Other comments showed a truer understanding of the facts:
Quote:

Before Islam came to Afghanistan, Buddhism was one of the proiminent[sic] religions.

The Taliban blew up the statues because of their misguided interpretation of Islamic law. I am not aware of any ruling in Islam that obligates us to destroy iconic or idolic statues of other religions. It is possible, though, that one does exist & I am not yet aware of it. I read a lot of literature on Islamic jurisprudence, but I am by no means a scholar.

I as a human being am tempted to say that the Taliban blew up the statues because of their lack of humanity.

One among them gave the answer that explains both history and the EXCUSE by the Taliban for why they blew it up:
Quote:

Ancient history is part of history books to read & know how people lived in certain areas long time ago. When Prophet Mohammad SAW took over Mecca, he destroyed all idols housed inside Kaaba to eliminate the sings & symbols of iodol[sic] worshipping, & re-established Monotheism in Mecca as his great great grand father Abraham started when he & his son Ismael built Kaaba 4000 years ago.

Aghanees now are all Muslims & they followed the example of Prophet Mohammad by eliminating the signs of idolatory in their country. Afghanistan is no longer idol worshipping country, no Budhists live there, then why they should keep the Budha Statue. They didn't need it. They couldn't also sell it to highest bidder country because selling idols is Haram (prohibited) forf[sic] Muslims & they didn't want to be called idol sellers.

These are not my views. This was the explanation given by Taliban government representatives when they destroyed the idol of Budha in Afghanistan.

http://buddha-statue-forums.info/viewtopic.php?t=19979001981929ZZx3JBX

I trust this puts to rest ANY validity of an attempt to utilize the destruction of the Bamyan Buddha as a representation of all things Muslim.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If we can have Ahmadinejad already visiting the WTC site, what's the problem with a Muslim Center being there? Can it get any "worse" in terms of "terrorist-leaning" Muslims than having Ahmadinejhad strolling around the place? Was that not a "triumphant event" for them already, if they wanted to interpret it as such? Nothing will change if it is built there, and life will go on for everyone as normal I'm sure. We'll probaly never hear about the place again. Meanwhile, America comes off to the rest of the 1 billion Muslims looking racist and intolerant the more this site is protested.





I have no idea where you're even trying to go w/ this Ahmadinejhad interjection into the story.

How many churches are in Saudi Arabia ? How many cathedrals are in Iran ? There are probably more mosques in Manhattan alone than Christian churches in both those countries.

And that's the point. The mosque at Ground Zero would be a permanent reminder to all Islam of it's victory over America. A perpetual black eye, and symbol of " Yeah, we did this, and now we're building here too "

That's the perception of building it there. Want to build a new mosque ? Fine. I'll even contribute a few bucks, just to show how big I am. But show me you're serious about building bridges, and build your house of worship elsewhere.




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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Did "Buddhism" show enough outrage? Did "Christianity"? "Paganism"?



There was far more unity and sympathy from elsewhere around the world than we saw w/ Islam. And yes, Islam should have shown more, for the simple reason that it was THEIR religion which was used in this attacked.

If indeed, it was " used ", and not an accurate representation of how most muslims feel.

Quote:



Plenty of people beside Imam Rauf have said the same thing, people who are not muslims.



Irrelevant. They're not trying to build a mosque on site.

Quote:

Are they allowed to say it but he must bite his tongue about his opinion because he happens to be muslim and must constantly prove something? And how does this opinion even imply that he was in favor of the attacks or something like that? Even if it did, why would it reflect on the entirely of Islam?


He claims he wants to build bridges, and then lies about the U.S. and blames us for what happened, for "making" Osama.... and you wonder why there's a strong reaction to this issue ?

Really?

Wow.

Quote:



It's like asking every Jew in the world to apologize if Israel does something you disagree with.



Umm. No it isn't. Not even a little bit.


Quote:

This conflation of two different things is very irrational and does nothing to actually protect people, all it does is keep fear levels high by inflating the number of enemies from several specific small groups to one large monolith of a group.



It's actually the same thing, where the guy in charge of this proposed project is feigning being one thing, and in reality, is something else. He's said far more than the MSM is letting on, and it's more in line w/ 'blaming America'. Now, if you're anywhere close to being intellectually honest, you'd admit that anyone who has that view point can't be trusted to claim to want to build bridges and patch old wounds.

Sad part is, some idiots don't see 9/11 as any thing at all, or any sort of a 'wound' that needs to be repaired. It's just one of those things, where stuff happens, and then we move on... going about our daily lives, not really connecting it to anything else. A tree falls in the woods, a plane flies into a building, a dog barks late at night....oh well.

" Oh boy! American Idol is on tonight. How do you think the new judges will be this season? "




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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:02 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If we can have Ahmadinejad already visiting the WTC site, what's the problem with a Muslim Center being there? Can it get any "worse" in terms of "terrorist-leaning" Muslims than having Ahmadinejhad strolling around the place? Was that not a "triumphant event" for them already, if they wanted to interpret it as such? Nothing will change if it is built there, and life will go on for everyone as normal I'm sure. We'll probaly never hear about the place again. Meanwhile, America comes off to the rest of the 1 billion Muslims looking racist and intolerant the more this site is protested.




I have no idea where you're even trying to go w/ this Ahmadinejhad interjection into the story.


I injected Ahmadinejhad into the debate because you and the mosque protesters feel that the mosque will show the world that Muslims triumphed over America here. For me, seeing that guy given a tour of the WTC site was the same thing.

Quote:

And that's the point. The mosque at Ground Zero would be a permanent reminder to all Islam of it's victory over America. A perpetual black eye, and symbol of " Yeah, we did this, and now we're building here too "

I disagree. Nothing of a permanent reminder at all, it'll just be another building like all the others in NYC. If you want to hand out "black eye symbols", hang one up for me in front of the FBI Building. They got reports of Muslim men taking flying lessons, but not learning how to land. These FBI guys are supposed to be smart, right, the best and brightest we have? Jeeez, a 6-year old with a Jr. Capt. Crunch Detective Ring could have put that case together, and perhaps thwarted the 9/11 attacks in the first place.


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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:03 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not " intolerance ". And frankly, I could care less what they think.



CRASSIC!

Quote:


There are two main reasons this is an issue. " Islam " didn't show , to most here in the US, near enough outrage & sorrow over the attacks. Instead, we saw celebrating and cheering in the streets.



Where in the U.S. was there celebrating and cheering in the streets on 9/11?

Quote:


Also, Imam Rauf's own words, that we were " complicit " , and that OBL was " made in America ", don't help matters one bit.



Certainly you'll support us in protesting GlenBeck's little nazi rally at the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, right? After all, it's just too soon, and the wounds of MLK's death are still too raw. And, of course, Beck has said those exact same things, damn near word for word, about 9/11 and OBL.

So has Ron Paul. Will all the tea partiers here join us in shouting down Dr. Paul's intolerance?

Didn't think so. ;)

Quote:


Word is, even in this economy, construction workers are vowing to not build this mosque at that site.

And that IS the main issue, not that it's a new mosque.



You keep changing your "main" issue. One minute it's hallowed ground, the next it's that Muslims weren't quite contrite enough (for you, anyway) after 9/11, and now it's about construction workers?

Some construction workers won't bid on the project. Others will. As you pointed out about Saudi Arabia's funding FauxNews, it's all about the money at the end of the day, and construction workers have to eat, too.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.





MLK was a republican and would support Beck. and why is beck's HUGE rally nazi? Have you ever even watched beck? He can't stand nazi.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Nothing of a permanent reminder at all, it'll just be another building like all the others in NYC.



You are in a excruciating tiny minority of those who think that.

Quote:

If you want to hand out "black eye symbols", hang one up for me in front of the FBI Building. They got reports of Muslim men taking flying lessons, but not learning how to land. These FBI guys are supposed to be smart, right, the best and brightest we have? Jeeez, a 6-year old with a Jr. Capt. Crunch Detective Ring could have put that case together, and perhaps thwarted the 9/11 attacks in the first place.




That none ( as far as I've heard ) in the US intelligence system lost their jobs over misreading the clear and obvious signs, is indeed unacceptable. But that's our Imperial Federal Gov't for you. There's a long list of miscarriages of justice and incompetence that's damn near endless. But that's for another thread.




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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:25 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:
A Holocaust Survivor's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said,
'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.
I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools.
So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.
Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control,
and the end of the world had come.
My family lost everything.
I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace
and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march... It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor , MI 48104


It's unfair to blame the majority of Muslims for terrorism. And it's unfair to blame Muslims for not speaking up "enough" against Muslim Jihadists. Everything quoted above is true, but it isn't that simple. Germans who went against the Nazi order were imprisoned or killed, so you can't blame them for "going along." They just wanted to live. Muslims around the world have never been "safe" from acts of Islamic terrorism, so they have as much to fear from it as anyone else. They just want to live too. Italians in mob-controlled neighborhoods don't "speak up" against the Mafia, and Blacks living in crime-riddled areas keep quiet when questioned by the police for info on drug dealers. That's just how things are. Very few dare to risk their lives to speak out. If the professionals we pay our taxes for can't provide a perfectly safe world, then we just have to grin and bear it.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Nothing of a permanent reminder at all, it'll just be another building like all the others in NYC.



You are in a excruciating tiny minority of those who think that.



I don't mind being in a tiny minority on this one, not one bit. Americans should not pre-judge and condemn this. There's at least enough reason to let these Muslims build their Center for their stated purposes without interference as there is to close our minds to that possibilty. Due process is a right we all have.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 8:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I got no problem w/ Americans prejudging this, what so ever.

We know Imam Rauf by his words, and his words really don't paint him as being the kindly, moderate bridge builder that so many have been duped into buying.



There's no " due process " here, what so ever. They're not being accused of any crime, there's no charge here, we just don't want them building THERE.

They can build darn near anywhere else, but not there.




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Monday, August 23, 2010 9:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW


You've made your points intelligently, and I appreciate the time you took to do that. However, I'm sticking to my position on this. I believe American Muslims have earned our respect and trust. They've handled the pressure and reality of being American Muslims in a post 9/11 America quite well for almost a decade, and it couldn't have been too easy for them. If they want this, they can have this.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:09 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

, and his words really don't paint him as being the kindly, moderate bridge builder

Yes they do - even in that feeble video attempt to paint him as an extremist. Shock - he uses the N--- word - When he's mimicking and criticising intolerant and divisive attitudes in society... Pathetic.

Your mistake is in insisting that moderate Muslims must LOVE America. Wake up Auraptor.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You've made your points intelligently, and I appreciate the time you took to do that. However, I'm sticking to my position on this. I believe American Muslims have earned our respect and trust. They've handled the pressure and reality of being American Muslims in a post 9/11 America quite well for almost a decade, and it couldn't have been too easy for them. If they want this, they can have this.



Which Muslims would those be ?

The DC sniper and his muslim boy wonder ?

Or the Major Malfunction muslim who shot up Ft.Hood?


sorry.... I couldn't keep the good dialog going.







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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:57 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Regarding Rauf and cultural blackmail:
Quote:


The supposed imam of the place, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying various shady and creepy things about the original atrocity. Shortly after 9/11, he told 60 Minutes, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." He added, "In the most direct sense, Osama Bin Laden is made in the USA." More recently, he has declined to identify the racist and totalitarian Hamas party as being guilty of the much less severe designation of terrorist. We are all familiar by now with the peddlers of such distortions and euphemisms and evasions, many of them repeated by half-baked secular and Christian spokesmen. A widespread cultural cringe impels many people to the half-belief that it's better to accommodate "moderates" like Rauf as a means of diluting the challenge of the real thing. So for the sake of peace and quiet, why not have Comedy Central censor itself or the entire U.S. press refuse to show the Danish cartoons?



http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:36 AM

HKCAVALIER


Mince, the inappropriateness of absolutism goes both ways. Just as there are very sensible reasons to criticize Islam, there are very sensible reasons to criticize the United States Middle East policies--neither act in itself renders a person "shady." (What a silly word to use in 2010, "shady?" Really Hitch?)

OBL was originally a CIA asset (hence "made in the USA"), and the 9/11 attacks were, as Ron Paul has pointed out on numerous occasions, "blow back." If we run around the world shitting on little weakling countries, is it not reasonable to assume that some day one o' them's gonna try to get back at us? Who the do we think we are? Yes, the citizens of this country who lost their lives on September 11th, 2001 were blameless bystanders, but does that absolve our government of its heinous provocations in the Muslim world??? Do you deny that the USA has done atrocious things over there (cf: the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein)? You are aware of the Central Intelligence Agency and it's, y'know, purpose?

This Imam is obviously a complex character, a politician, but goddamn, the situation he's in is effed up no matter how you look at it. He's supposed to placate both you and the right wing Islamists back in Central Asia (that's why he's called a "moderate"). It's not possible. Thing is, we're not gonna put a fatwa out on him if he says the wrong thing.

Holding opinions like Rauf's does not place one "on the side" of the terrorists. Americans get to have shitty opinions without their basic rights being abridged to appease an angry mob.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 2:20 AM

RIVERLOVE


This Imam is now taking his anti-American views abroad and telling Islamic countries that America is racist and intolerant. And our US taxpayer dollars are funding his betrayal of his country. And the State Dept., which approved this tour of lies and misconceptions, is not yet denouncing what he is saying.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
This Imam is now taking his anti-American views abroad and telling Islamic countries that America is racist and intolerant.


An old saying comes to mind here, and lip-service aside, let's cut the bullshit.

If the shoe fits...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

If the shoe fits...

-Frem



But America isn't anywhere near as racist or intolerant as the rest of the world, so I don't know what your line is suppose to mean.






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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


Certainly you'll support us in protesting GlenBeck's little nazi rally at the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, right? After all, it's just too soon, and the wounds of MLK's death are still too raw. And, of course, Beck has said those exact same things, damn near word for word, about 9/11 and OBL.



Glenn Beck isn't holding any sort of a NAZI rally at the Lincoln memorial, so again, you lie.

The I Have A Dream Speech anniversary ? Is that suppose to be some sort of holiday now ? I thought we already had a day for MLK Jr. And nothing Beck and his supporters are gathering for, in any way, what so ever, is counter to what MLK Jr stood for, so the race baiters like you and Tavis Smiley are the ones ginning up a 100% phony issue and analogy.

MLK Jr didn't die there. He wasn't killed on this date.... was he ? Nope and nope. He died on a balcony, at the Lorraine Motel, in Memphis, TN. That's some 900 miles away. So no, Glenn Beck has said nothing remotely like those words, because no such comparison applies. At all.


kwickie, you're so full of FAIL, it's nearing critical fail mass.




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Rappy, "But those people are worse!" is no excuse.

We should not be measuring ourselves by whether or not we are *as* racist or intolerant as other governments or cultures, but by whether we are racist or intolerant at ALL.

And that test, collectively, we do fail.

I find this unacceptable.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

You are in a excruciating tiny minority of those who think that.
Then he is a far-sighted minority, and I agree. There have been myriad things in American history which were huge issues at the time, then were forgotten. Time will be the arbiter, but I believe as he does.
Quote:

Muslims around the world have never been "safe" from acts of Islamic terrorism, so they have as much to fear from it as anyone else. They just want to live too.
Damn straight.

I agree with JS pretty much down the line. Raptor refers to a couple of nutbags to make his point that Muslims “handled the pressure and reality of being American Muslims in a post 9/11 America quite well for almost a decade, and it couldn't have been too easy for them. That’s true for the VAST majority of Muslims, who have had considerable reason to expect backlash after 9/11 and some who have suffered from it. There are always extremists; they have nothing to do with the Muslim population in general.

I also happen to agree with him about 9/11. It wasn’t “deserved”, but by gawd, our actions around the world pretty much left us open to hatred, and where there is hatred, there are individuals who will take it to the next step: violence. I’m sure our “patriots” will have some things to say about my believing that, but history shows quite clearly that we’ve acted like bullies and had our own share of atrocities with regard to Muslims and Muslim countries. Woops, I see Cav makes the same argument. Well, I agree with him.

As to the US being racist and intolerant, you think the current controversy over the COMMUNITY CENTER is not a clear indication that the majority of Americans AREN’T?? I see no “tolerance” there by the majority of the country or the politicians. By the way, there is an actual MOSQUE only THREE BLOCKS from Ground Zero, so to make this huge hue and cry over a COMMUNITY CENTER one block closer is totally absurd. It was fine with even Ingram and Fox News before Geller got her hands on it, but the reaction has certainly been intolerant. Admittedly in my opinion it’s a situation which has been manipulated all out of proportion, but the American people have been real quick to jump on board. What about the non-Muslim man who was accosted at that demonstration? That’s pretty intolerant...

And while Islam is a religion rather than a “race”, the fact that a guy who happened to be Black and wore a cap that made him appear Muslim to some is pretty “racist”. Comparing us to the “rest of the world” (which isn’t accurate as a matter of fact) is invalid; statements of racism and intolerance about America have nothing to do with whether any other country being racist. ‘”But we’re not AS racist...” is a strawman argument. I’d like to see cites as to this Imam “traveling the world” to call us racist, if anyone has reputable ones...

As to Beck and the “Dream” speech, if you don’t think he chose that day specifically for the reason that it was the day of that speech, you’re deluding yourself. It’s a clear message; and it’s incredibly sad to see it used to gather some of the most intolerant and racist among us. The Tea Party wasn’t all racist and still isn’t, but their actions and words of late have shown there are an awful lot of them within that Party.

None of this will mean anything to those with closed-off minds, so I expect nothing more than attacks and accusations, but it's true.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:18 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Beck and the “Dream” speech, if you don’t think he chose that day specifically for the reason that it was the day of that speech, you’re deluding yourself. It’s a clear message; and it’s incredibly sad to see it used to gather some of the most intolerant and racist among us. The Tea Party wasn’t all racist and still isn’t, but their actions and words of late have shown there are an awful lot of them within that Party.



Fair enough, your're entitled to your opinions. But I challenge you to actually watch the event, or at least part of the event, rather than listen to some Liberal outlet's "summary" of the event. Will you do that?

Also, you're trying to make a point above that Beck's use of MLK's Dream Speech location and anniversay date is "insensitive" and even insulting to the memory of Dr. King. We who oppose the 9/11 mosque site feel the same way on that issue as you do on this. Interesting, because I might agree with you on that point. Then again, it's just for one day, versus the lifetime the 9/11 mosque center will be there.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:35 AM

RIVERLOVE


Al Sharpton and the NAACP are planning counter demonstrations to Beck's legal and permitted rally. Beck's going to have folks from all walks of life, representing all colors and creeds on stage there. But the NAACP and Sharpton are already outraged and against everything already....all before anyone has said one word. Where's the "tolerance" there, or is their tolerance reserved only for Muslims building a mosque near the WTC site? Funny how tolerance is so darn complicated. So complicated it seems that only Liberals know how it works.

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2010/08/18/democrats-protest-glenn-beck-ral
ly-spot-but-support-ground-zero-mosque
/


Alveda King will be speaking as a guest at Beck's rally :

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/23/alveda-king-speaks-on-whether-her-un
cle-martin-luther-king-jr-would-stand-with-glenn-beck-or-naacp-on-aug-28
/

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I will watch the event, and not on MSNBC, I promise you that. It won't be pleasant, but given your request, I will honor it.

As to the insensitivity issue, you're kind of defeating yourself, aren't you? Beck's rally; nobody has demonstrated or protested that it should not take place, as far as I know. They are planning a demonstration, yes, but there has not been an uproar prior to it being held, and the demonstration is to be a counter-demonstration, not an effort to stop Beck's rally. The same is not true for the COMMUNITY CENTER, so the comparison rather fails.

I find it perfectly understandable that Black people are planning a rally around the fact that the demonstration is being held on the day of MLK's Dream speech...it is a date that is specifically important to THEM more than anyone else and I firmly believe it was chosen for that purpose.

Additionally, THERE IS NO MOSQUE PROPOSED AT GROUND ZERO. It is a non-issue with which nobody had any problem until Geller started her crusade and utilized visceral, inflammatory, UNTRUE statements to fire people up for her agenda of anti-Islam, which is a very clear agenda from the words she says and prints; it's not about "sensitivity" on her part, it's about something much larger and much uglier. She's succeeded beyond her wildest dreams, and it has nothing to do with a mere COMMUNIT CENTER, within which there is a ROOM planned for prayers for a group of people whose religion requires they pray several times a day. It has been made into something it is not, for the purposes of furthering an agenda.

Is not the counter-demonstration also legal, by the way?

Beck's rally will of course cover more things than that one issue, but given the things I've heard him and others of like mind have said about Blacks, Muslims, Obama, etc., and the fact that finding a Black face at ANY Tea Party rally is damned difficult, to extrapolate that there is racism inherent in his choice of dates and that there will be racism inherent in what some of the speakers say. I'll take notes, and watch both rallies, to see if my expectations come true.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Al Sharpton and the NAACP are planning counter demonstrations to Beck's legal and permitted rally. Beck's going to have folks from all walks of life, representing all colors and creeds on stage there. But the NAACP and Sharpton are already outraged and against everything already....all before anyone has said one word. Where's the "tolerance" there, or is their tolerance reserved only for Muslims building a mosque near the WTC site? Funny how tolerance is so darn complicated. So complicated it seems that only Liberals know how it works.

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2010/08/18/democrats-protest-glenn-beck-ral
ly-spot-but-support-ground-zero-mosque
/


Alveda King will be speaking as a guest at Beck's rally :

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/23/alveda-king-speaks-on-whether-her-un
cle-martin-luther-king-jr-would-stand-with-glenn-beck-or-naacp-on-aug-28
/





In your rant about "tolerance", did you notice the irony of citing a website called "stop the ACLU"? The ACLU is all about tolerance, yet the right would love to kill every single member.

Also, you claim that Beck's protest is legal and permitted, yet you neglect to mention that the counterprotest is legal and permitted as well. And your general tone seems to be that you'd like to see it quashed or denied. You don't come across as being particularly "tolerant" of opposing points of view.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:56 AM

RIVERLOVE


Niki, I'm looking forward to comparing notes next week on the rally and counter-rallies.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Beck and the “Dream” speech, if you don’t think he chose that day specifically for the reason that it was the day of that speech, you’re deluding yourself. It’s a clear message; and it’s incredibly sad to see it used to gather some of the most intolerant and racist among us. The Tea Party wasn’t all racist and still isn’t, but their actions and words of late have shown there are an awful lot of them within that Party.



Fair enough, your're entitled to your opinions. But I challenge you to actually watch the event, or at least part of the event, rather than listen to some Liberal outlet's "summary" of the event. Will you do that?



Wait a minute - did you just say you're IN FAVOR of "entitlements"?

Quote:


Also, you're trying to make a point above that Beck's use of MLK's Dream Speech location and anniversay date is "insensitive" and even insulting to the memory of Dr. King. We who oppose the 9/11 mosque site feel the same way on that issue as you do on this.




Big difference is, I'm not trying to ban them from doing it, or trying to have Beck investigated to see who's funding his "movement".

See? I can disagree with him, and find his actions insensitive, while still agreeing that he has every right to do this. I won't be attending, but many will, as is their right. Such is the nature of "tolerance"; I don't have to AGREE with your actions, or SUPPORT them or ENDORSE them. I just have to ACCEPT them as being legally allowed.

People on the right are still trying to say that this community center should be stopped or relocated because "it's insensitive". Tell me, would you support Rush Limbaugh's broadcasts being stopped or taken off the air ("relocated") if the Lefties started complaining that he is "insensitive"? Or would you just tell us to grow up and get over it?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:09 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

In your rant about "tolerance", did you notice the irony of citing a website called "stop the ACLU"? The ACLU is all about tolerance, yet the right would love to kill every single member.


When I googled the subject several sites came up with the same info. I should not have used the anti-ACLU one, but there are others there that won't offend you if you care to follow up.

Quote:

Also, you claim that Beck's protest is legal and permitted, yet you neglect to mention that the counterprotest is legal and permitted as well. And your general tone seems to be that you'd like to see it quashed or denied. You don't come across as being particularly "tolerant" of opposing points of view.

Honestly, I think Sharpton is rather loveable and charming in his own flamboyant way, whereas the head of the NAACP is a fool. Sharpton, unlike some of his kindred spirits, has always shown courage and guts, and has never been afraid of appearing often on Conservative outlets to answer tough questions. And yes I believe I am tolerant, at least as tolerant as Liberals are of my views and opinions.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I dislike Al Sharpton, and Jessee Jackson, for the reason that I believe they want attention and that their views are too extreme and one-sided for my taste. I always know what they are going to say before they say it, and that it will represent a closed mind. I generally change the channel when they come on anymore.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:19 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
People on the right are still trying to say that this community center should be stopped or relocated because "it's insensitive".


Are they saying it should be "stopped"? Looks more to me that they've been asking for it to be moved a little further way from the WTC site. I haven't seen the "stopped" and "banned" stuff.


Quote:

Tell me, would you support Rush Limbaugh's broadcasts being stopped or taken off the air ("relocated") if the Lefties started complaining that he is "insensitive"? Or would you just tell us to grow up and get over it?
That is quite interesting. Maybe we could work out a compromise, sort of an old-fashioned horse trade. But it would have to be reasonably fair in size and proportion....like we give up Rush Limbaugh, and you give up MSNBC, NBC, and CNN. Could be some wiggle room there to close the deal. Also, good one on the "entitled" line.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wellll...
Quote:

Bryan Fischer, the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the American Family Association, is demanding the end to the construction of all mosques on the grounds that “each Islamic mosque is dedicated to the overthrow of the American government.”

He made the same case on his radio program, at first talking about the “Ground Zero Mosque,” but then issuing a call for a blanket ban on the construction of any new mosques anywhere in the country

and
Quote:

writes that every mosque "is a potential jihadist recruitment and training center, and determined to implement the 'Grand Jihad.'" He adds that "because of this subversive ideology, Muslims cannot claim religious freedom protections under the First Amendment. They are currently using First Amendment freedoms to make plans to destroy the First Amendment altogether."

If a mosque was willing to publicly renounce the Koran and its 109 verses that call for the death of infidels, renounce Allah and his messenger Mohammed, publicly condemn Osama bin Laden, Hamas, and Abdelbaset al Megrahi (the Lockerbie bomber), maybe then they could be allowed to build their buildings. But then they wouldn't be Muslims at that point, now would they?

"Permits should not be granted to build even one more mosque in the United States of America, let alone the monstrosity planned for Ground Zero," Fischer says.

The AFA, a non-profit that has a strong presence in the social conservative community, and is even a co-sponsor of the Value Voters summit. AFA describes its purpose as follows:

The American Family Association represents and stands for traditional family values and exists to motivate and equip citizens to reform our culture to reflect Biblical truth on which it was founded

and
Quote:

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today expressed concern about an article published by Insight magazine, a website owned by the Washington Times newspaper, that offered a sympathetic portrayal of an anti-Muslim hate group that advocates making “adherence to Islam” punishable by 20 years in prison.

The hate group, Society of Americans for National Existence (SANE), is supporting the so-called “Mapping Shari’a in America Project” devoted to spying on 2,300 Islamic institutions in the United States.

In February of this year, SANE offered a policy proposal that states in part:

“Whereas, adherence to Islam as a Muslim is prima facie evidence of an act in support of the overthrow of the US. [sic] Government through the abrogation, destruction, or violation of the US Constitution and the imposition of Shari’a on the American People. . .It shall be a felony punishable by 20 years in prison to knowingly act in furtherance of, or to support the, adherence to Islam.”

In its report on the mosque spying project, Insight magazine falsely claimed: “Hundreds of Islamic centers in the United States have become a hot-bed of extremist activity; they promote violence, terrorism and hatred against America.”

SANE is using Islam as McCarthy used Communists, pure and simple. They’ve long been “watching” Muslims in the government...you can imagine why. But now they’re getting more influential circles than they’ve ever been before. Previously they were only marginally noticed, but now that they’ve found an issue...they aren’t against just this COMMUNITY CENTER, they’re against all Mosques and all Muslims. They’re becoming mainstream and their membership is growing.

So much for American tolerance.

As to a horse trade...you’d also have to trade “proportion”, a you said, and/or prove somehow that all those you listed are AS representative of the “left” point of view as Fox is of the “right”. It would be difficult, taken piece by piece, for you to be able to trade all those stations for only Limbaugh, or even for all of Fox News. You also offered trading TV shows for radio, which I don’t think is appropriate. In reality, you’d have to trade ALL the right-wing radio shows for ALL the left-wing radio shows, which you might find rather difficult. It would have to be TV stations for TV stations (say, Fox for MSNBC), radio shows for radio shows, and encompass the volume of right-wing spouted with the volume of left-wing spouted, which would, again, I think, be extremely difficult.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:09 AM

RIVERLOVE


No one, including me, can know about all the fringe hate groups and what they say. What you are saying about what they're saying is rather shocking to me. I believe the vast majority of the vast majority of Americans who oppose the WTC site would be outraged if they knew that these despicable elements were either hijacking or framing the debate. Harry Reid, Howard Dean, Rudy Guiliani, all fairly reasonable men who oppose the building site....none of them would tolerate what you are presenting.

As to the horse trade, I was trying to equalize based on participation, giving slight advantage to TV over radio even in Limbaugh's case. Limbaugh has something like 20 or 30 million listeners every day (not me, 'cause I'm working), so you come up with a 20-30 million listener/viewship entities on the Left that will balance it out.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:12 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Also, you're trying to make a point above that Beck's use of MLK's Dream Speech location and anniversay date is "insensitive" and even insulting to the memory of Dr. King. We who oppose the 9/11 mosque site feel the same way on that issue as you do on this. Interesting, because I might agree with you on that point.


What is Glen Beck doing here? I haven't heard anything about this. But so long as he's not purposefully chosen the location and anniversary to give credibility to his rally, and so long as he doesn't try to lay claim to the Martin Luther King 'mantle' for himself or the tea party, I have no problem with this. And if he is trying to do either of these things I would let him go ahead and be a dick anyway, for all to see - after all as RiverLove says it's only for a day.

My problem with the mosque is that it seems to be purposefully using it's location (and the 9-11 anniversary if Auraptor's sources are to be believed) as a platform to make a statement about how Islam is really quite nice.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Viewership numbers don't equal agenda. However many WATCH or LISTEN to one thing or the other doesn't equate to how much they are propagandized, and if you truly think the stations you mentioned push the left agenda nearly as much as Fox News pushes the right, we might as well give up the game.

As to the extremists, of course I realize they are a minority and no doubt what they propose is abhorrent to most of America. But they are getting bigger, and their calls are getting louder. The fact that Geller, about as "out there" as someone can get, has been able to fire up this controversy is a good indication. Check her out; they don't come much worse. And it was SHE who created this issue; it was fine with even Laura Ingram, Glenn Beck and Fox News until she got ahold of it and blew it up. If Geller's getting attention and pushing HER agenda is working, how long before the others catch on? I don't say they will gain their goals, just that they can be dangerous.

This is the danger of these things; Tea Partiers and Republicans and Conservatives may have gotten behind the controversy, but it can get out of hand when it brings out the worst in people, and when people lowering themselves to their baser impulses find they're not alone, it can snowball.

I don't think the right is going to like the end results of their objections to the COMMUNIT CENTER. For one thing, it's Summer--well, still in some places. It's forecast 102 here today. Summer heats up tempers, just as with the town halls last year.

For another, I think the politicians who have jumped on the bandwagon will find it less tasty when the midterms are over, and/or as they see the "beast" that's been created grow and get more "out there". We shall see. But it's a dangerous tool to utilize and can get beyond control all too easily, so it worries me.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

My problem with the mosque is that it seems to be PURPOSEFULLY USING it's location (and anniversary if Auraptor's sources are to be believed) as a platform to make a statement.


But again, so what? If it's using its anniversary to "make a statement", then it is, as you say, only for a day. So what's the big deal? And the location is where they could buy land in the area, cheap. That building had sat, empty and rotting, for 8 years. No "American" wanted it; they just don't want anyone "foreign" (even "foreigners" from New York, it seems) to have it.

Glen Beck didn't pick the location and date for his little Nazi party by accident, either. He did it PURPOSELY, to, as you said, make a statement.

Again I ask, So what?

Are we, as Americans, no longer allowed to make statements? Are we to curb our beliefs because they might offend someone? Shall we stop the Catholics from building within two blocks of a playground or elementary school? Shall we stop fundamentalists from building within two blocks of a Planned Parenthood location? Shall we stop the RNC from holding its meetings within two blocks of a lesbian-bondage-themed strip club?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think the Society of Americans for National Existence (SANE) should emphasize how inspiring their new society is. They should call themselves the Inspiring New Society of Americans for National Existence.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


KPO, if you've been told the lie that the COMMUNITY CENTER was to be opened on 9/11, it is just that: a lie.
Quote:

Glenn Beck and Pamela Geller [thre's Geller again] advanced the false claim that the New York City Islamic cultural center will open on September 11, 2011. In fact, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

Daisy Khan, executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, one of the organizations spearheading the project, called the allegation "absolutely false." Khan also said, in a statement: "We are in the preliminary planning stages of the center and the timeline has yet to be determined."

On May 26, Newsday reported that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam involved in the project, "said the mosque will not open on the anniversary of 9/11, and that it will take between 18 months and three years before the money is raised to open the center at the old Burlington Coat Factory building on Park Place, which was damaged on 9/11.

Let's hope that clears THAT up.

As to the location, it was an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory and the land was up for sale. They had lost the leas to their nearby location which was a prayer room exclusively and which was very crowded.
Quote:

Near ground zero was second choice of location for this facility. The organization first considered property on 23rd street. If the right is so adament to "...let the free market self regulate" , then why isn't anyone getting all over the property owner who offered this site up for the legal use.
http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2010/08/15/ground-zero-mosque-be-nations-
first-barring-political-scuffle#ixzz0xYMzETJn
Quote:

It is interesting to note that the mosque was NOT originally planned near Ground Zero, but in another location. Seems the Ground Zero site was a second choice...
http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2010/08/ground-zero-cordoba-
mosque-and-iran-connections.html


The second cite goes on to say the "Ground Zero" choice was made on purpose, that a "moderate Muslim" on Fox said it was a Trojan Horse. He's entitled to that opinion. But those are the facts; it is NOT opening on 9/11, and it was the second choice of location, tho' we dn't know why it was preferred over the first choice. I'd bet the 9/11 site was chosen because of it's location, but that's just my opinion. As to whether, if chosen for its site, it was to build bridges and snub their noses at the terrorists or for some, darker, reason, is up to each of us to decide.

But again, IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. We all know what mosques look like, and this ain't it:

Artist's rendering of planned Cordoba COMMUNITY CENTER

The developers "have stated that it is modeled on the noted Manhattan Jewish community and cultural center, the 92nd Street Y. The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:48 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

But again, so what? If it's using its anniversary to "make a statement", then it is, as you say, only for a day. So what's the big deal?


Well, I think it's tasteless and insensitive. Nobody should use the site of a national tragedy to amplify their political message. I would say just the same for a plan by one of these Islamophobic groups to put up a 'memorial' as close to ground zero as they can, and then use that position in the spotlight to broadcast a message about how evil and insidious Islam is.

Glen Beck's tackiness is not on the same scale, or as on as sensitive an area (not on MLK's actual assassination spot, for e.g).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, Good one.

KPO: "The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews." That's the statement they intended to make via the name. How does that equate to your comparison of a "political message?"?
Quote:

The name Cordoba was chosen carefully to reflect a period of time during which Islam played a monumental role in the enrichment of human civilization and knowledge. A thousand years ago Muslims, Jews, and Christians coexisted and created a prosperous center of intellectual, spiritual, cultural and commercial life in Cordoba, Spain.

It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.

The community center will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their culture or background, will find a place of learning, arts and culture, and, most importantly, a community center guided by the universal values of all religions in their truest form – peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

Why did you choose this site so close to Ground Zero?

We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.

That according to the Cordoba Initiative website: http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

You can, of course, dismiss whatever they say, that's your choice.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:27 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

But again, IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. We all know what mosques look like, and this ain't it:

Artist's rendering of planned Cordoba COMMUNITY CENTER



Hmm, I usually call it a 'community centre' for the sake of agreeing on terms, but even Obama called it "a place of worship and a community centre", and I hear the prayer room is designed to accomodate 2000 worshippers. It sounds to me like a purposefully unthreatening mosque - with added community facilities to sweeten the deal.

Quote:

"The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews." That's the statement they intended to make via the name. How does that equate to your comparison?

Exactly, and I believe him. But no political statements on this site please, for humanity's sake. Even ones that I otherwise support being disseminated and broadcast, like Rauf's bridge-building message. I think it's quite like if this guy Rauf and the Cordoba initiative decided to hand out fliers about Cordoba's history of Islamic greatness and tolerance - at the funerals of Western suicide bomber victims. It's tasteless and insensitive to use such venues as a platform. Yet there's an argument that such a venue is exactly where Rauf's message of reconciliation and understanding needs to be heard the most - isn't there?



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, there likely WILL BE large Muslim celebrations this September 11th. This has nothing to do with the anniversary of 9/11; Ramadan ends this year on September 10th.

You heard it here first.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Mike. I'm afraid we won't hear that part tho', and any celebration on 9/11 will be used the same way as the COMMUNITY CENTER.

As to Obama's referencing it as "a place of worship and a community centre", I'd rather he had reversed the two, but it's nonetheless accurate. A room for worship WITHIN a community center...more necessary than other community centers like the Y because Muslims have to pray several times a day, so it makes sense.

We all have to decide what we're going to believe and how we feel about it. I know how I feel, I hear how many others feel; I doubt anyone will change anyone else's mind.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

By the way, there likely WILL BE large Muslim celebrations this September 11th. This has nothing to do with the anniversary of 9/11; Ramadan ends this year on September 10th.

You heard it here first.



Excrement is about to hit the rotary air flow device. o.0

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:54 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Why did you choose this site so close to Ground Zero?

We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.


Hmm. One thing we know for certain: it is a very grand, expensive Muslim project with a grand name, coming from a prominent Muslim organisation. Do you think it a coincidence that they settled on this site for such a grand scheme? Even if they were already in the neighbourhood and needed a new place of worship - that the location near to ground zero didn't influence and increase the ambition of the project(they didn't see an opportunity to boldly re-draw Islam's image)?

That's what it seems to me, that's the taste I can't get out of my mouth. If their motives were completely natural and un-influenced by the location... well I feel bad for them, but I think they would have been wise anyway to ask themselves 'Is a site so close to ground zero the best place for us to promote our vision of true Islam?'


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I certainly think the location was a considerable, if not the deciding, factor. But I don't see it as "an opportunity to boldly re-draw Islam's image". Rather I see it as what they said; a way to counter the impression of Muslims as responsible for, or at the very least, connected to, 9/11 and hopefully provide facilities for those nearby (Muslim and others) which would help sponsor understanding.

Maybe I'm just less prone to seeing conspiracies and evil intent in some places. I just don't see this as some kind of Muslim victory statement, attempt to whitewash Muslim's images, a hotbed of terrorists or any of the other fear-mongering terms being used.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:23 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


KPO: I *don't* think it occurred to them, because I don't think Rauf thinks that way. What you HAVEN'T been hearing about him speaks volumes. What you've heard from the right is that he's a "radical", that he no doubt has ties to terrorists, that he's a bad guy, etc., etc.

What you HAVEN'T heard about him is that he worked very closely with the Bush Administration, traveling abroad several times at the behest (and at taxpayer cost) of the U.S. State Department. You haven't heard that he's had family members kidnapped by radical fundamentalists because he is seen as being "too moderate" and suspected by them of being "the American Imam". He's authored a book, What's Right with Islam is What's Right with America (published by one of Rupert Murdoch's companies, by the way!) in which he calls for moderates to celebrate the freedoms that America allows. He was called a "good Muslim" by Glen Beck, and he worked closely with Karen Hughes.

If he's a radical terrorist, why are all these conservatives hanging around him and working so closely with him? And why are they publishing his manifesto and paying for his travel abroad?

Could it be that he's NOT a radical?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:29 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I think it's quite like if this guy Rauf and the Cordoba initiative decided to hand out fliers about Cordoba's history of Islamic greatness and tolerance - at the funerals of Western suicide bomber victims. It's tasteless and insensitive to use such venues as a platform. Yet there's an argument that such a venue is exactly where Rauf's message of reconciliation and understanding needs to be heard the most - isn't there?

Um, ground zero IS the grave site of some 3000 western suicide bomber victims. But how big is that grave site? The grave site itself? 5 city blocks around the grave site? The entire island of Manhattan? NYC? The entire United States?

There's actually a larger context than 9/11 here, and maybe that's part of what's got people so riled up--how dare anyone put the last ten years in perspective! All the Muslims I've known--here in the U.S and some in Iran--feel that their centuries old traditions have been hijacked by fundamentalists in the last 50-100 years (depending on who ya talk to). Sometimes recalling a more tolerant era in Muslim history is just, y'know, hopeful, just the proper context for these recent fundamentalist atrocities.

But no, of course reality revolves around the feelings and whimsical prejudices of those among us who would blame 1.66 billion people for the psychotic acts of 13.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:40 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I certainly think the location was a considerable, if not the deciding, factor.


Quote:

Rather I see it as what they said; a way to counter the impression of Muslims as responsible for, or at the very least, connected to, 9/11 and hopefully provide facilities for those nearby (Muslim and others) which would help sponsor understanding.


These two statements are pretty much how I see it. But I still think it's tacky to use the vicinity of ground zero and its amplifying effect, to broadcast their political message (like with my handing out fliers at a funeral analogy). The only other difference between you and me on this Niki is that I am in truth a little bit cynical of Islam's innate peacefulness and ability to be tolerant (I think it has a problem, more than other religions), even while I support efforts to promote bridge-building amongst moderates and inter-community harmony.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Sometimes recalling a more tolerant era in Muslim history is just, y'know, hopeful, just the proper context for these recent fundamentalist atrocities.

Hey, I applaud it. I also don't think I'd mind muslims in the area innocently (perhaps naively) building an ordinary mosque as close as this to ground zero - if it was purely to serve their religious needs. I believe I could support that. They could have minarets and everything, it wouldn't bother me. I'll say again, what I dislike is the use of the very prominent and sensitive location to make a political statement - of any kind. I never thought that this Islamic building was designed to be a symbol of Islamic dominance, even though I'm aware of that tradition. That would be a much worse political statement - as would an anti-muslim group setting up their own monument near to ground zero, to the victims of 9-11, and using it to broadcast their message of suspicion and intolerance. I'm saying there's a big spotlight on ground zero, and it's tacky for groups with a political message and agenda to try and put themselves in that spotlight. Even if their agenda is one I support (bridge building, appreciation of Islam's better side etc.), I dislike it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:16 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I'm saying there's a big spotlight on ground zero, and it's tacky for groups with a political message and agenda to try and put themselves in that spotlight.

A year ago there was no spotlight! Laura Ingraham interviewed the Imam's wife on Fox News and she applauded what they were doing--she interviewed the wife, it was a human interest story, nothing more. And her husband was a respected Muslim moderate who had long since said everything the right is in an uproar about now.

The building has been in the news for a year and nothing about this "controversy" until a week ago.

They didn't "try and put themselves in that spotlight," right-wing interests shined this absurd and despicable spotlight on them for nothing but political gain. You got this whole thing backwards. It's the right, in the last two weeks that decided they could make political hay with this story so they did. Where were they a year ago? Why wasn't this an issue a year ago, when Glenn Beck was chatting with the Imam himself? Couldn't have anything to do with the 2010 elections coming up--no, no, not at all.

You wanna be cynical? Maybe the right waited a year, so that the folks behind the thing would have sunk a ton of cash into this site before the protest so they couldn't just pull out and go somewhere else. The right gives 'em a year to get comfortable with the idea and then pulls the rug out from under them.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I see the children have resorted to subject line changing, so desperate are they to make their case.

They have no case, of course.




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