REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There is no proposed mosque at Ground Zero

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 19:52
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Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!








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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There is no mosque proposed for Ground Zero. There is a COMMUNITY CENTER with a room for prayer proposed in New York, which happens to be TWO BLOCKS from Ground Zero. Anything else is propagandized rhetoric. It's a CREATED controversy done so for political purposes, and there are actual important things happening out in the world that more deserve everyone's attention. But please, be my guest, continue spouting propagandized rhetoric. It does so much good.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Nothing gonna remove you from your little fantasy world, is it Niki ?

Even folks from across the pond can see this.

Non bible believing, non Republican, not even American folks see this mosque for what it truly is.

But not you.






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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:14 AM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nothing gonna remove you from your little fantasy world, is it Niki ?

Even folks from across the pond can see this.

Non bible believing, non Republican, not even American folks see this mosque for what it truly is.

But not you.









A place to worship and reflect on God/Allah?





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:39 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Oh my God he's so good. I was on the fence before seeing this, "constitution," but his words ring truer than any I've heard yet. Spineless weasels we are, (a 747 fly over! - I know he was kidding but still a great line), opening on the 10th anniversary, our softness will be our undoing. I can just hear when the trouble started someone saying, "tell them it's a community center," sounds innocent.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Yeah, the fly over comment was brilliant.






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Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's no fantasy, Raptor, it is fact. Prove that it is a in any way a "mosque". Show us the plans for a "mosque". That YOU refuse to see the facts is telling; that YOU are deliberately blind to the fact that there is ONE ROOM within a COMMUNITY CENTER open to all planned shows you have been swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker, along with so many others. No doubt you envision some huge mosque, minarets and all, with Muslims celebrating in front of it yelling "death to Americans!", when in fact that is furthest from the truth. Self-delusion is a sad thing.

By the way, you are unfortunately right: "Non bible believing, non Republican, not even American folks see this mosque for what it truly is"--unfortunately, like you, "not even Americans see it for what it truly is". I wish they did.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Yes, Niki, it is exactly that.

It's a...






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Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:55 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
There is no mosque proposed for Ground Zero. There is a COMMUNITY CENTER with a room for prayer proposed in New York,



If this thing gets built, I'd love to see the reaction if Jews and Christians attempt to hold prayer meetings or Bible studies in this "community center".

Anyone who doesn't realize that Islam does not separate social, civic, political and religious life and practices doesn't understand Islam.

The "community center" IS a mosque, pure and simple.
Any belief otherwise flies in the face of the reality of the history of Islam unchanged over hundreds of years.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:19 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And hey, it's not like you'd let the Catholics build a church within two blocks of a playground, right?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:22 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
There is no mosque proposed for Ground Zero. There is a COMMUNITY CENTER with a room for prayer proposed in New York,



If this thing gets built, I'd love to see the reaction if Jews and Christians attempt to hold prayer meetings or Bible studies in this "community center".



Probably about the same as if you tried to hold Islamic prayer meetings in the Catholic community center or the YMCA...

Quote:


Anyone who doesn't realize that Islam does not separate social, civic, political and religious life and practices doesn't understand Islam.



And that differs from your typical Christian or Jew... how, exactly?

Quote:


The "community center" IS a mosque, pure and simple.
Any belief otherwise flies in the face of the reality of the history of Islam unchanged over hundreds of years.



Well, it's a "mosque" in the same way that the USS Enterprise is a "church".

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:26 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And that differs from your typical Christian or Jew... how, exactly?



Huge differences.
The fact that you make this comparison displays an epic dismissal of the reality in the world around you.

Islam, by its very nature, cannot build a center promoting diversity.
Islam means submission.
Accepting the beliefs of others, let alone PROMOTING them,
flies in the face of the teachings of the Koran.
Kinda like the head of the Islamic Diversity TV station who beheaded his wife for getting "uppity",
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/16/buffalo.beheading/index.html
cuz, ya know, women can't divorce men very easily under sharia law.

Oh, and if you don't like the Bible-study reference, go with something as simple as a pork roast.

It's not a "community center" it's an Islamic community center, aka, a mosque.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anyone who doesn't recognize that EVERY religion does not separate social, civic, political and religious life and practices does not understand the society. Despite "separation of church and state", it's very true that in America, social, civic, political and religious life and practices are very much a part of practicing Christians' beliefs. Orthodox Judiasm makes no separation between these things either.

However, if you want to make the argument between secularism and religion in Islam, here is a bit of information for you to consider:
Quote:

The idea of secularism in Islam means favoring a modern secular democracy with separation of church and state, as opposed to Islam as a political movement. It is often used to describe the separation of civil/government matters from religious theocracy. "Muslim theologians have long distinguished between matters of din [religion] and dawlah [state]."[1] Secular states had existed in the Muslim world since the Middle Ages.

"A defacto separation between political power" of sultans and emirs and religious power of the caliph was "created and institutionalized ... as early as the end of the first century of the hegira,"

In fact, religious and political life developed distinct spheres of experience, with independent values, leaders, and organizations. From the middle of the tenth century effective control of the Arab-Muslim empire had passed into the hands of generals, administrators, governors, and local provincial lords; the Caliphs had lost all effective political power. Governments in Islamic lands were henceforth secular regimes - Sultanates - in theory authorized by the Caliphs, but actually legitimized by the need for public order. Henceforth, Muslim states were fully differentiated political bodies without any intrinsic religious character, though they were officially loyal to Islam and committed to its defense.

Many of the early supporters of Secularist principles in Middle Eastern countries were Baathist and non-Muslim Arabs, seeking a solution to a multi-confessional population and an ongoing drive to modernism.

From Wikipoedia. That’s just a start and has many cites to back it up, but it as much time as I’m willing to spend on it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the community center itself:
Quote:

"It's a seed of peace," board member Rob Townley said. "We believe that this is significant step in the Muslim community to counteract the hate and fanaticism in the minority of the community." The vote was 29-to-1 in favor of the plan.

The organizations sponsoring the project say they're trying to meet a growing need for prayer space in lower Manhattan, as well as provide a venue for the dissemination of mainstream Islam, to counter extremism. Bruce Wallace, who said he lost a nephew in the Sept. 11 attacks, stated "Here is a chance to allow moderate Muslims to teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists."

The plan would include areas for interfaith activities and conferences and an arts center, as well as a swimming pool. Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer, who has been the target of disparaging remarks for supporting the plans, defended his position and denounced offensive speech directed at him or at Muslims.:”I want people to do is to take a look at the totality of what they are proposing," Stringer said. "What we're rejecting here is outright bigotry and hatred."

Stringer made his remarks before the vote while standing outside the Park Place building, a former department store that was damaged by debris on Sept. 11. The paint on the building's facade is peeling, and dirt is accumulating on its columns.

Quote:

The building in question is planned to be a Muslim community center, a sort of YMCA (or, I suppose, YMMA). The plans are for it to have fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court), a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant and a cooking school, exhibition space, a library, art studios, a 9/11 memorial and childcare.
.
But calling the entire building a mosque is a bit like referring to the Empire State Building as a 103-story Walgreens because the pharmacy chain has a store on the ground floor.

Although somewhat architecturally daring does not contain minarets or other spire-like features that would give it greater prominence than an ordinary, 12-story building. Like dozens and dozens of other buildings, and several other places of worship near to Ground Zero, it would be quite well concealed among Lower Manhattan's dense street grid.

Exactly how many CHURCHES do you know of which encompass arts centers, gym, basketball court, restaurant, cooking school, exhibition space, a library, art studios and swimming pool? Show me a CHURCH—not a community center built by a religious —which does so and perhaps we can debate it. The plans even has a 9/11 memorial
Quote:

Two blocks from Ground Zero -- around the corner from the Glad Tidings Tabernacle and up the street from the Christian Science Reading Room -- stands a former Burlington Coat Factory outlet damaged on September 11th . If all goes as planned, it will soon house Cordoba House, a community center and mosque open to people of all faiths.

Supporters of the initiative include hundreds of Muslims, Jews, and Christians who have known this couple and their work for decades and share their dream of a place to house a vibrant, pluralistic American Islam. As Daisy Khan, wife of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative, put it: "For us it is a symbol, a platform that will give voice to the silent majority of Muslims who suffer at the hands of extremists. A center will show that Muslims will be part of rebuilding lower Manhattan."

The Reverend Dr. Joan Brown Campbell, former General Secretary of the National Council of Churches of Christ, agrees: "Building so close is owning the tragedy. It's a way of saying: 'This is something done by people who call themselves Muslims. We want to be here to repair the breach, as the Bible says.'"

US NEWS (and World Report, as it used to be called)

A move which was intended to thumb their/our noses at the extremists has been turned instead to a VICTORY by the extremists, because they can point to our bigotry and say “See? They hate all Muslims!” I realize you and those like you want desperately to foster hate and bigotry via your own narrowmindedness, but this IS a community center, much like community centers provided by other faiths, it IS open to all, it was seen by people of all faiths initially as a positive reponse to throw back in the faces of extremists, and IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. "The fact that you make this comparison displays an epic dismissal of the reality in the world around you."


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:44 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. "The fact that you make this comparison displays an epic dismissal of the reality in the world around you."


Time will tell...

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to your definitions of Islam, they are incorrect:

"Islam" means literally "submission to God"

It is
Quote:

is a monotheistic faith and the world's second-largest religion. Followers of Islam, known as Muslims, believe that God (or, in Arabic, Allāh) revealed His Will to Muhammad (c. 570–632) and other prophets, including Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. However, that which was revealed to Muhammad was considered to be the final and ultimate revelation, and corrective of Jewish and Christian traditions.

In Arabic, Islām means "submission" and is described as a Dīn, meaning "way of life" and/or "religion." Etymologically, it is derived from the same root as, for example, Salām meaning "peace" (also a common salutation). The word Muslim is also related to the word Islām and means "one who surrenders" or "submits" to God, or a "vassal" of God.

Muslims hold that it is essentially the same belief as that of all the messengers sent by God to mankind since Adam, with the Qur'ān (the one definitive text of the Muslim faith) codifying the final revelation of God. Islam sees Judaism and Christianity as derivations of the teachings of certain of these prophets - notably Abraham - and therefore see them as fellow Abrahamic religions, and People of the Book. Unlike Christianity, Islam has not undergone any period of reformation; however, that is essentially the goal of various liberal movements within Islam. Islam has two primary branches of belief, based largely on a historical disagreement over the succession of authority after Muhammad's death; these are known as Sunnite and Shi'ite.

The basis of Muslim belief is found in the shahādatan ("two statements"): lā ilāhā illā-llāhu; muhammadur-rasūlu-llāhi — "There is no god but God; Muhammad is the messenger of God." One needs to recite and believe these statements in order to become a Muslim. All Muslims agree to this, although Sunnis further regard this as one of the five pillars of Islam.

The Muslim creed, and one of their prayers, is
Quote:

I believe in God; and in His Angels; and in His Scriptures; and in His Messengers; and in The Final Day; and in Fate, that Good and Evil are from God, and Resurrection after death be Truth. I testify that there is nothing worthy of worship but God; and I testify that Muhammad is His Messenger.
How different is that from the devote Christian believes, and in sometimes prays?

The more we learn about the REALITIES of things, the more we try to educate ourselves about things upon which we are ignorant, the better people we become. As long as we give in to ignorance and a desire NOT to understand others, we are the worse for it.

And if you try to say yes, that's how it began, but now it's been taken over by extremists, you can't deny that Christianity has lately been taken over by extremists...INCLUDING THOSE WHO KILLED FOR THEIR BELIEFS. Which is NOT to equate terrorists with anything or anyONE other than other terrorists. If you had any decency, you'd not equate terrorists with Muslims.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Oh, and if you don't like the Bible-study reference, go with something as simple as a pork roast.



So you're saying that Jews are intolerant. Got it.



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 9:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:

IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. "The fact that you make this comparison displays an epic dismissal of the reality in the world around you."


Time will tell...




Sounds pretty vague and wishy-washy to me. I can just as easily claim that all the tea partiers are a bunch of racist assholes, and by way of "proof", just say "time will tell..."

You seem pretty epically dismissive of reality yourself, y'know.



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 9:02 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, at least the thread title is accurate; there IS "No mosque at Ground Zero". There's not even a proposal for one.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 10:55 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

You seem pretty epically dismissive of reality yourself, y'know.



Naw, I'm just dismissive of arguing with ninnies on the internet.
I don't really waste time on the bile spewed in RWD,
but I had a few moments to post a quicky lunacy-litmus-test.
Ya'll of the "community center" set passed with flying colors!
Good On Ya...

Back to following FIREFYFANS.NET about Firefly.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 11:09 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Oh this guy again.

A little knowledge of history might go a long way towards dispelling some of your Islamophobia and paranoia about the intentions of the people behind this project Auraptor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain

Quote:

In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself. During the caliphate apogee (1000 AD), Córdoba had a population of roughly 400,000 inhabitants,[4] though estimates range between 250,000 and 500,000. In the 10th-11th centuries Córdoba was one of the most advanced cities in the world, as well as a great cultural, political, financial and economic centre. The Great Mosque of Córdoba dates back to this time; under caliph Al-Hakam II Córdoba received what was then the largest library in the world, housing from 400,000 to 1,000,000 volumes.


So Muslims drawing on the name 'Cordoba' seems to be a hearkening back to Islam at its most advanced, tolerant and civilised - the opposite side of Islam, from the violent and radical type which you so obsess over. From the Cordoba Initiative's website:

"The programs at Cordoba Initiative (CI) are designed to cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders. In the ten years since our founding, the necessity to strengthen the bridge between Islam and the West continues to prevail. Cordoba Initiative seeks to actively promote engagement through a myriad of programs, by reinforcing similarities and addressing differences."

Here's more about the history of Cordoba: http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview/2010/08/c%C3%B3rdoba-the-co
rdoba-initiative-and-ground-zero.html


This puts quite a different complexion on the motivations of the people behind the centre, and their choice of a location near to ground zero - and alleged plan to open on the 10th anniversary of 9-11 (is this a confirmed fact?). It seems to me like moderate muslims attempting to show the other face of Islam - probably what they would call the 'real' face - and try to change Islam's image a little bit. I generally welcome these kind of bridge building, inter-community harmony projects; my only problem as I've said before is people using the location of ground zero to make a statement about (and rebranding of) Islam. I do think it's tacky; but I can see what they were thinking - headlines such as: "Ten years after 9-11, muslim community centre opens to show the real, tolerant, benevolent side of Islam."

I commend the goal, I think harmony's the way forward; but a ground zero vicinity location choice is a mis-step in my view.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You seem pretty epically dismissive of reality yourself, y'know.



Naw, I'm just dismissive of arguing with ninnies on the internet.



he said, in the argumentative tone of an internet ninny.

Quote:


I don't really waste time on the bile spewed in RWD,



he spewed, freely spilling his own bile all over the RWED board.

Quote:


but I had a few moments to post a quicky lunacy-litmus-test.



he claimed, pretending that he was the one who started the conversation in the first place, but only with the aim of showing everyone how quickly it would degenerate, and then proclaiming himself the "winner" of the internet ninnies.

Quote:


Ya'll of the "community center" set passed with flying colors!



he exclaimed, seeming to claim some "special knowledge" of Islam that mere mortals aren't privy to.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:21 PM

CATPIRATE


Niki2, We live in a world of radical islam. If you wanna put your head in the sand go ahead. You can call it a community center but the obama the muslim said the wisdom of building a mosque there. Traitor in the white house. But hey go to Las Vegas and see the community center on Russel Road near the airport. High fences and barred windows. Looks like a safe house for terrorists.
Pat Condell is a liberal and gay who makes sense.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:44 PM

CATPIRATE


AU, Now I have been saying this for years about the muslims they build on sacred ground for the mosques. Did I not say many time about that mosque in Ireland. It is in county mayo the furest western mosque in europe. Here is the religon of peace and love. 3rd century Bhudhas destroyed by muslims.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:06 PM

HKCAVALIER


Will you listen to yourselves? Who the have they conquered? You mean to say you honestly believe that if ANOTHER mosque were built in lower Manhattan (they already have one 5 blocks away from ground zero) that it would represent the defeat of our country? Who--besides you--would believe such nonsense, and why again should we care?

You guys claim to be patriots--why do you even bother if the United States is in such grave danger from a real estate deal? Meanwhile the Saudis already own half of Fox News, but none of you patriots are protesting that evil Islamofoolish beachhead on our shores...yeah, that's all manner of reasonable.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CatPirate:
AU, Now I have been saying this for years about the muslims they build on sacred ground for the mosques. Did I not say many time about that mosque in Ireland. It is in county mayo the furest western mosque in europe. Here is the religon of peace and love. 3rd century Bhudhas destroyed by muslims.







Why, that's almost as outrageous as a church hosting a "Burn a Q'uran Day" gathering!

Seem intolerance of other religions is a christian value, too. ;)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:31 PM

CATPIRATE


HK, listen to yourself about muslims. 9/11 I am not going to forget.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:33 PM

CATPIRATE


Yeh kwicko muslims get a pass but the obscure christian group persecute. Burning a few books is a bigger deal than historical monument.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:18 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by CatPirate:
HK, listen to yourself about muslims. 9/11 I am not going to forget.

So you honestly believe that building another mosque in lower Manhattan will bring us closer to another 9/11 attack? How exactly?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

So you honestly believe that building another mosque in lower Manhattan will bring us closer to another 9/11 attack? How exactly?



Did you miss the part about the video ? It's right at the top of the thread.... up there.





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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:04 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Did you miss the part about the video ? It's right at the top of the thread.... up there.

One more mosque in lower Manhattan would not turn America into the EU. Not even close.

But keep dreamin'. I'm sure OBL is having the same dream, AU.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
]One more mosque in lower Manhattan would not turn America into the EU. Not even close.

But keep dreamin'. I'm sure OBL is having the same dream, AU.

HKCavalier




Again, watch the video.

And it's not " one more mosque " <- See Niki ? He said MOSQUE! It's not a gorram YMMA ! ( young men's muslim association ), or any such nonsense.





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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:31 PM

HKCAVALIER


If I believed the proposed community center were a mosque, I would have said, "one more mosque will not turn America into the EU." But, as another mosque is not in the offing (there's already a mosque a few blocks away), I said "would," to indicate that your fears are, as usual, imaginary.

And, sheesh, I watched the video before you even posted it here. I am well acquainted with Mr. Bug-eyes and his flaky, Chicken Little style paranoia. Chicken Little and the AURaptor...birds of a feather.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If I believed the proposed community center were a mosque, I would have said, "one more mosque will not turn America into the EU." But, as another mosque is not in the offing (there's already a mosque a few blocks away), I said "would," to indicate that your fears are, as usual, imaginary.

And, sheesh, I watched the video before you even posted it here. I am well acquainted with Mr. Bug-eyes and his flaky, Chicken Little style paranoia. Chicken Little and the AURaptor...birds of a feather.

HKCavalier



So many people disagree with you, from both the right and the left, Americans and non Americans, it's nonsensical for you to try to spin this off as " Chicken Little style paranoia ".




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Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:56 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
So many people disagree with you, from both the right and the left, Americans and non Americans, it's nonsensical for you to try to spin this off as " Chicken Little style paranoia ".

So we're putting reality to a vote now, are we? Good to know.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:33 PM

TRAVELER

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 10:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If I believed the proposed community center were a mosque, I would have said, "one more mosque will not turn America into the EU." But, as another mosque is not in the offing (there's already a mosque a few blocks away), I said "would," to indicate that your fears are, as usual, imaginary.

And, sheesh, I watched the video before you even posted it here. I am well acquainted with Mr. Bug-eyes and his flaky, Chicken Little style paranoia. Chicken Little and the AURaptor...birds of a feather.

HKCavalier



So many people disagree with you, from both the right and the left, Americans and non Americans, it's nonsensical for you to try to spin this off as " Chicken Little style paranoia ".



A lot of people were fooled by "War of the Worlds" when it was broadcast on the radio, too.

That large numbers of people can be fooled with fear isn't a new discovery. That you're afraid isn't new, either.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, August 23, 2010 12:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Almost 3,000 innocent people died on 9/11, and you want to compare that to " being fooled " by a radio broadcast ?

There are no words......




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Monday, August 23, 2010 1:33 AM

AGENTROUKA


I don't get this whole "the religion of Islam committed the crime of 9/11" thing.

These terrorists were muslims, sure. But that doesn't make Islam responsible, nor does it implicate the many non-radical, non-terrorist muslims in the world. Muslims, too, became innocent victims of the attacks. Should their relatives be ashamed of their religion, maybe feel threatened by themselves?

This uproar just seems strange and misguided.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 1:40 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Almost 3,000 innocent people died on 9/11, and you want to compare that to " being fooled " by a radio broadcast ?

There are no words......




People were and are afraid for a real reason (as you mention, the attacks) but the direction of their fear, its object, that is indeed subject of manipulation.

Stating that fact is not disrespectful at all. It's simply a sad truth.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 2:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Iran's Ahmadinejad was taken to the 9/11 site during a trip to NYC. He got a good long look at the big hole in the ground. Whether he was secretly laughing on the inside or not, I could care less. Let them build their mosque there, and be done with it. Protesting the mosque is a big mistake. Shows the world we're afraid of something. And for those legitimately still mourning a personal loss, I say that loss, as painful as it is, should not be used as an eternal excuse for intolerance.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's not " intolerance ". And frankly, I could care less what they think.

There are two main reasons this is an issue. " Islam " didn't show , to most here in the US, near enough outrage & sorrow over the attacks. Instead, we saw celebrating and cheering in the streets.

Also, Imam Rauf's own words, that we were " complicit " , and that OBL was " made in America ", don't help matters one bit.


Word is, even in this economy, construction workers are vowing to not build this mosque at that site.

And that IS the main issue, not that it's a new mosque.









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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW


If we can have Ahmadinejad already visiting the WTC site, what's the problem with a Muslim Center being there? Can it get any "worse" in terms of "terrorist-leaning" Muslims than having Ahmadinejhad strolling around the place? Was that not a "triumphant event" for them already, if they wanted to interpret it as such? Nothing will change if it is built there, and life will go on for everyone as normal I'm sure. We'll probaly never hear about the place again. Meanwhile, America comes off to the rest of the 1 billion Muslims looking racist and intolerant the more this site is protested.


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Monday, August 23, 2010 4:23 AM

AGENTROUKA


Did "Buddhism" show enough outrage? Did "Christianity"? "Paganism"?

Reactions poured in from inviduals and from political entities. Religious representatives, too, reacted. But did a religion, this abstract concept, show outrage? Or did 100% of all members of a certain religion give unanimous reactions?

What you saw dancing in the streets were people who, yes, were muslim, but who were also a particular nationality, from a particular region, with particular political views. In many ways different from muslims of other nationalities, from other regions, with other political views.

You saw people, not a religion. So don't take the reaction of some people to be the equivalent of an entire religion.

Plenty of people beside Imam Rauf have said the same thing, people who are not muslims. Are they allowed to say it but he must bite his tongue about his opinion because he happens to be muslim and must constantly prove something? And how does this opinion even imply that he was in favor of the attacks or something like that? Even if it did, why would it reflect on the entirely of Islam?

It's like asking every Jew in the world to apologize if Israel does something you disagree with.

This conflation of two different things is very irrational and does nothing to actually protect people, all it does is keep fear levels high by inflating the number of enemies from several specific small groups to one large monolith of a group.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 6:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I didn't read past the video, my heart jumped so much when I saw it I couldn't go further. Did skim for a few posts, but obviously the argument continues unabated despite the facts.

I stood on the top of that buddha, on top of the sliced-off head you see at the start of the video. From the head of the Bamyan Buddha you looked out across the entire (then lush) Bamyan Valley, which was one of the few green and beautiful valleys in Afghanistan at the time. I don't know what the video says, I'm not about to watch it. But here are the facts:

The Bamyan Buddha was built by the buddhist monks many centuries ago, along with a couple of smaller ones. The face was chopped off by good old Ghengis Khan when he conquered the area--he was one of the first conquerors and did some pretty awful things I could tell you about, including the "Red City" and the "Screaming City", but I won't go into that.

It pretty much destroyed me when they blew it up (and the people I communicate wih on a site where others who went to the same international school in Kabul that I did post). It was such a piece of Afghan history. I cried for a couple of days, and have never gotten over it.

When Ghengis came through and did that, the monks hid in the lattice of caves that are attached to it--those he didn't manage to slaughter anyway. The caves have blackened rooves and frescoes on the walls, as did the sides of the alcove the buddha stood in. My mom broke off a piece of one of those frescoes (for which I never forgave her); after her death I had it set in laminate and gave it to the owners of the Bamyan Restaurant, who display it in their Washington DC restaurant. The restaurant I gave it to has long closed; they were victims of the post-9/11 anti-Muslim mentality and I miss them a lot. It was the only place I could get real shish-kabob and Afghan nan (the flatbread).

THE TALIBAN blew up the Bamyan Buddha, because it was a sign of their power, for the same reason it offended Ghengis. If there's some comparison made between the New York OOMMUNITY CENTER and the actions of the Taliban, it's totally stupid, because the two have nothing to do with one another. The Taliban is a small group of extremists, decried by the huge majority of Muslims in America and many overseas. The issue is not Islam, whatever you meant it to be.

I won't watch the video, I can't, it brings too much back, but if some idiot is trying to connect the two, they are a stupid asshole and nothing more.

I wish it hadn't been posted, it brings back too many painful memories. And if it's being utilized to make some statement on the COMMUNITY CENTER, I am intensely offended, both for myself, for those who attended Kabul International School, and Afghans all over the world who hate the Taliban as much as we do.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:08 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Will you listen to yourselves? Who the have they conquered? You mean to say you honestly believe that if ANOTHER mosque were built in lower Manhattan (they already have one 5 blocks away from ground zero) that it would represent the defeat of our country? Who--besides you--would believe such nonsense, and why again should we care?



Bah, don't waste your time with logic. All these paranoid wingnut asshole care about is fear.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay; curiosity killed the cat, and it never did me much good either in some cases. I had to watch.

Every time they showed a full shot of the Buddha, I kept expecting the explosion. When it finally came, I jumped. At least I no longer cry, which is an ipmrovement.

But the entire vieo is nothing but the Buddha and his destruction. I expected more, some kind of tie-in. Nothing was there. So to use it as an argument against Muslims is a total fallacy; it was destroyed by Al Qaeda, not Muslims. The mere fact that it STOOD untouched for centuries, long after Ghengis Khan destroyed the faith, IN A COUNTRY ALMOST ENTIRELY MUSLIM, completely refutes it being used to supposedly illustrate Muslim intolerance. It illustrates ONLY the Taliban's intollerant violence, nothing more. What you ignore is the pain and sadness felt by MUSLIM Afghans the country over at heir horrendous act. It was a national treasure to MUSLIM Afghanistan, and I find it utterly unconscionable to see that you put it up as a denunciation of the entire Muslim faith.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:31 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


A Holocaust Survivor's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said,
'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.
I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools.
So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.
Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control,
and the end of the world had come.
My family lost everything.
I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace
and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march... It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor , MI 48104


*Dr. Emanuel Tanay MD is a well-known forensic psychiatrist who has been an expert witness in many famous cases. He has served as an officer or committee member on the Michigan Psychiatric Society, the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, the American Psychiatric Association (APA), and others. He is a diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology and of the American Board of Forensic Psychiatry and a distinguished fellow of the APA and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (AAFC).

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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:32 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not " intolerance ". And frankly, I could care less what they think.



CRASSIC!

Quote:


There are two main reasons this is an issue. " Islam " didn't show , to most here in the US, near enough outrage & sorrow over the attacks. Instead, we saw celebrating and cheering in the streets.



Where in the U.S. was there celebrating and cheering in the streets on 9/11?

Quote:


Also, Imam Rauf's own words, that we were " complicit " , and that OBL was " made in America ", don't help matters one bit.



Certainly you'll support us in protesting GlenBeck's little nazi rally at the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, right? After all, it's just too soon, and the wounds of MLK's death are still too raw. And, of course, Beck has said those exact same things, damn near word for word, about 9/11 and OBL.

So has Ron Paul. Will all the tea partiers here join us in shouting down Dr. Paul's intolerance?

Didn't think so. ;)

Quote:


Word is, even in this economy, construction workers are vowing to not build this mosque at that site.

And that IS the main issue, not that it's a new mosque.



You keep changing your "main" issue. One minute it's hallowed ground, the next it's that Muslims weren't quite contrite enough (for you, anyway) after 9/11, and now it's about construction workers?

Some construction workers won't bid on the project. Others will. As you pointed out about Saudi Arabia's funding FauxNews, it's all about the money at the end of the day, and construction workers have to eat, too.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, August 23, 2010 7:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


This conflation of two different things is very irrational and does nothing to actually protect people, all it does is keep fear levels high by inflating the number of enemies from several specific small groups to one large monolith of a group.



And that, my dear, is ENTIRELY the point. Crank up the fear, ratchet up the paranoia, conflate non-issues into "issues" in a desperate attempt to sway voters. This is just the latest topic to be given The Fear Treatment in this country. Immigration, gay rights, flag-burning, Islam, abortion... Just step right up and spin the wheel, and pick your hot-button issue for the day.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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