It's a paradox. In the past year and a half, the Obama Administration has tackled a number of "third-rail" issues o other president has been at all succ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama Paradox

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 17:01
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's a paradox. In the past year and a half, the Obama Administration has tackled a number of "third-rail" issues o other president has been at all successful in dealing with...if they even tried. They've made strides in financial reform, health care, student loan reform, stimulus package, DADT, and at least tried on energy. And don't forget the Lilly Ledbetter. Yet all we hear is how "evil" they are.

You may not agree with what they've done--certainly I don't, in that the final bills have been so watered down as to be ineffective, and in some cases will have the opposite effect than intended, but it's a START, and some of it IS good.

So why do we hear nothing about that? Why is the grinding cry "bad President, bad President" ALL the time? Yeah, he's caved on too much, he hasn't done enough to repair the damages Dumbya left us with, and he's too wishy-washy. But how many Presidents have even TRIED this much in this short a time? And how much of it, now that it's law, can we improve to make what he (and we) wanted...which is the first step?

The hatred of Obama seems to be so strong that NOTHING is being seen as positive. Not only that, but the Repubs "party of no" tactics have made sure the bills ended up being only semi-helpful, even tho' they BACKED some of the ideas until he came into office. Anyone know who FIRST was in favor of Cap and Trade...who used it as a campaign promise? Clinton failed at health care; all Repub Presidents have wanted to do is privatize Social Security, Medicare, and keep the health-insurance companies Big Oil and Wall Street fat and happy. All three had carte blanche during Dumbya's time; Obama TRIED to get a moratorium to make sure things were safe and revisit the issue (anyone notice that judge's affiliations with Big Oil?).

Just think how GOOD those bills could have been if the Republicans had participated. As it was, a lot of their suggestions were incorporated, and still they voted "no".

What exactly is their platform on these issues, how do they suggest fixing things? I haven't heard anything from them except "Obama Bad"...I'd like to know what ideas they have, if any, to show their being in power would have improved this or WOULD improve things in the future.

Mind you, I am NOT happy, but I'm willing to give the man his due, and applaud him for at least TRYING.

Here are a few things he's begun or accomplished thus far:

•"Returning science to its rightful place" by lifting the Bush restrictions on federally funded embryonic stem cell research.

•Signing laws to expand children's health insurance (financed by a 61-cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax the adviser did not tout).

•Signing a law meant to improve the ability of women who allege pay discrimination to sue their employer.

•Lifting travel and remittance restrictions for Cuban Americans who seek to travel more frequently to the island and send more US currency to their immediate family.

•signed a law supporting increased financial aid to severely injured war veterans, and their caretakers.

•Put a hold on Artic oil exploratory digging until environmental impacts are clear.

•Passed health care reform.

•signed a hate crime bill.

•passed financial reform.

•Passing the "largest" economic stimulus bill in American history.

•Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient. Reports to the deputy director of the Office of Management and Budgets. Specific duties require finding new efficient ways of operating.

•Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut future spending.

•Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices.

•Initiated changes in federal procurement policies and procedures.

•Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it.

•Placed limits on lobbyist's access to the White House.

•Placed limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration.

•Required lobbyists to be removed from federal advisory study panels.

•Suspended acquisition of expensive fleet of 28 new (foreign built) Marine One helicopters that was projected to be over budget by billions of dollars. A new domestically produced modified version of current production civilian helicopters is being looked at by the Pentagon.

•Limited salaries of senior White House aides and cut maximum salary to $100,000.

•Initiated housing rescue plan.

•Improved loan guarantees to small businesses and lowered small business loan interest rates.

•Initiated policies that allow the public to meet with federal housing insurers to refinance a mortgage if they are having trouble paying. Has further reinforced the policy to improve usage of the program.

•Instituted a new focus on reducing mortgage fraud.
Closed offshore tax safe havens.

•Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals.

•Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs. Initiated a new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back.

•Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies. Replaced it with new consumer protections from credit card industry's predatory practices. Moved dates of implementation forward when credit card companies arbitrarily upped rates ahead of planned reform date.

•Increased student loans while reducing the costs to the federal government by 87 billion dollars over ten years.

•Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program.

•Provided new funds for school construction in stimulus program.

•Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date.

•Insured that better body armor is now provided to our troops.

•Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel.

•Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB.

•Proposed increasing the amount of government and private money spent on scientific research to three percent of the nation's economic output.

•Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports.
Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect.

•Initiated efforts to expand broadband Internet access to rural areas.

•Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs. The federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings thus lowering the drug costs for seniors.

•Re-established diplomacy and the state department as a significant factor in foreign policy.

•Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office. Re-establishing good relations with both friends and others.

•Ended the previous administration's torture policy and returned US to compliance with the Geneva Convention standards.

•Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure and protocols.

As to the two wars:

•Ordering the closing of Guantanamo Bay military detention facility and abolishing "enhanced interrogation techniques."

•Setting a fixed timetable for withdrawing U.S. combat forces from Iraq.

We'll have to wait and see how those turn out.

You might not agree with any of those, but doesn't he get credit for SOME of them? Why is he so universally considered the "Evil Overlord" and why does nobody mind the Repubs styming everything they can yet offering nothing of substance in return? I don't get it.

I know we're supposed to hate whatever government is in office, but I happen to think some of these are GOOD things.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off



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Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:48 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It's a paradox. In the past year and a half, the Obama Administration has tackled a number of "third-rail" issues o other president has been at all successful in dealing with...if they even tried. They've made strides in financial reform, health care, student loan reform, stimulus package, DADT, and at least tried on energy. And don't forget the Lilly Ledbetter. Yet all we hear is how "evil" they are.

You may not agree with what they've done--certainly I don't, in that the final bills have been so watered down as to be ineffective, and in some cases will have the opposite effect than intended, but it's a START, and some of it IS good.

So why do we hear nothing about that? Why is the grinding cry "bad President, bad President" ALL the time? Yeah, he's caved on too much, he hasn't done enough to repair the damages Dumbya left us with, and he's too wishy-washy. But how many Presidents have even TRIED this much in this short a time? And how much of it, now that it's law, can we improve to make what he (and we) wanted...which is the first step?

The hatred of Obama seems to be so strong that NOTHING is being seen as positive. Not only that, but the Repubs "party of no" tactics have made sure the bills ended up being only semi-helpful, even tho' they BACKED some of the ideas until he came into office. Anyone know who FIRST was in favor of Cap and Trade...who used it as a campaign promise? Clinton failed at health care; all Repub Presidents have wanted to do is privatize Social Security, Medicare, and keep the health-insurance companies Big Oil and Wall Street fat and happy. All three had carte blanche during Dumbya's time; Obama TRIED to get a moratorium to make sure things were safe and revisit the issue (anyone notice that judge's affiliations with Big Oil?).

Just think how GOOD those bills could have been if the Republicans had participated. As it was, a lot of their suggestions were incorporated, and still they voted "no".

What exactly is their platform on these issues, how do they suggest fixing things? I haven't heard anything from them except "Obama Bad"...I'd like to know what ideas they have, if any, to show their being in power would have improved this or WOULD improve things in the future.

Mind you, I am NOT happy, but I'm willing to give the man his due, and applaud him for at least TRYING.

Here are a few things he's begun or accomplished thus far:

•"Returning science to its rightful place" by lifting the Bush restrictions on federally funded embryonic stem cell research.

•Signing laws to expand children's health insurance (financed by a 61-cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax the adviser did not tout).

•Signing a law meant to improve the ability of women who allege pay discrimination to sue their employer.

•Lifting travel and remittance restrictions for Cuban Americans who seek to travel more frequently to the island and send more US currency to their immediate family.

•signed a law supporting increased financial aid to severely injured war veterans, and their caretakers.

•Put a hold on Artic oil exploratory digging until environmental impacts are clear.

•Passed health care reform.

•signed a hate crime bill.

•passed financial reform.

•Passing the "largest" economic stimulus bill in American history.

•Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient. Reports to the deputy director of the Office of Management and Budgets. Specific duties require finding new efficient ways of operating.

•Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut future spending.

•Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices.

•Initiated changes in federal procurement policies and procedures.

•Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it.

•Placed limits on lobbyist's access to the White House.

•Placed limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration.

•Required lobbyists to be removed from federal advisory study panels.

•Suspended acquisition of expensive fleet of 28 new (foreign built) Marine One helicopters that was projected to be over budget by billions of dollars. A new domestically produced modified version of current production civilian helicopters is being looked at by the Pentagon.

•Limited salaries of senior White House aides and cut maximum salary to $100,000.

•Initiated housing rescue plan.

•Improved loan guarantees to small businesses and lowered small business loan interest rates.

•Initiated policies that allow the public to meet with federal housing insurers to refinance a mortgage if they are having trouble paying. Has further reinforced the policy to improve usage of the program.

•Instituted a new focus on reducing mortgage fraud.
Closed offshore tax safe havens.

•Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals.

•Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs. Initiated a new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back.

•Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies. Replaced it with new consumer protections from credit card industry's predatory practices. Moved dates of implementation forward when credit card companies arbitrarily upped rates ahead of planned reform date.

•Increased student loans while reducing the costs to the federal government by 87 billion dollars over ten years.

•Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program.

•Provided new funds for school construction in stimulus program.

•Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date.

•Insured that better body armor is now provided to our troops.

•Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel.

•Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB.

•Proposed increasing the amount of government and private money spent on scientific research to three percent of the nation's economic output.

•Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports.
Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect.

•Initiated efforts to expand broadband Internet access to rural areas.

•Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs. The federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings thus lowering the drug costs for seniors.

•Re-established diplomacy and the state department as a significant factor in foreign policy.

•Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office. Re-establishing good relations with both friends and others.

•Ended the previous administration's torture policy and returned US to compliance with the Geneva Convention standards.

•Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure and protocols.

As to the two wars:

•Ordering the closing of Guantanamo Bay military detention facility and abolishing "enhanced interrogation techniques."

•Setting a fixed timetable for withdrawing U.S. combat forces from Iraq.

We'll have to wait and see how those turn out.

You might not agree with any of those, but doesn't he get credit for SOME of them? Why is he so universally considered the "Evil Overlord" and why does nobody mind the Repubs styming everything they can yet offering nothing of substance in return? I don't get it.

I know we're supposed to hate whatever government is in office, but I happen to think some of these are GOOD things.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off



Barry ignored "Pay Go" for unemploment bennys, but here are STILL the facts:

10% unemploment

STILL got that pesky "Patriot Act"

STILL got Gitmo

Are you on your way to the Gulf to clean the oil off Penguins?

STILL fighting 2 wars

Vacation #9 coming soon

He has REALLY big ears

Without the telepromter he's lost

His daughters are the result of a sperm
bank homeless junky Republican

His wife likes white guys

Barry also likes wite guys

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 11:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Interesting article in the latest Washingtonian noting that he's got the Justice Department really going after reporters who publish articles containing classified information, and also the folks who leak the info. He apparently doesn't like the culture of leaking to the press that's so prevelant in D.C.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 1:42 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Bottom line? Because he is a black man ane white conservative amwrica can't handle it.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 2:21 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


wow, I have to stop posting from my phone!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 2:26 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Are your posts from your computer less sweeping?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 3:42 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


No, just spelled correctly.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, July 25, 2010 1:02 AM

RIVERLOVE


Obama has never stopped being just a candidate and campaigner. He's a total failure as President and leader of the nation. He's just a wind-up teleprompter useful idiot puppet for the Chicago thugs, socialists, communists, and left-wing radicals that permeate the entire Administration. His election was a fraud, his campaign a total lie. America has had enough of him and the rest of the smarmy Demtards in Congress.

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Sunday, July 25, 2010 1:20 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


I think you have a problem with your brain being missing.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Every single thing Obama has done expands the size and power of the Federal Gov't at the expense of our freedom and at great financial cost.

This when we literally have no money to do so.

Obama has pushed on w/ his idealogical views, deaf,dumb and blind to the needs and wishes of the people.


There's no paradox here, what so ever.


He's just a community activist who lacks any real world experience, and it shows.


And Niki, after all that I've seen posted here by you, it's surprising to see you blindly fall into the role of Mouthpiece for this President. Did you even READ the list of crap you cut /copied before you pasted it on here ? For just about each and every item listed, there's a compelling counter point. There are reasons why Obama has done the exact wrong thing, or that the methods by which he chooses to accomplish can be such that it doesn't take a massive expansion of the Federal Gov't .

Then there are some things which are flat out bogus and false, and yet you dutifully report them as though they were chiseled on stone, and handed down from upon high.






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Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:16 AM

RIVERLOVE


Obama's a boob and a disaster and America agrees with me in every poll. I know it devastates and hurts with searing pain beyond sanity all you naive idiot Liberals that just seemingly so recently had so many weepy moments of love and hope and multiple orgasms for Obama, your own personal clean and articulate Harvard airhead-turned Chicago ghetto organizer. Obama has consistently shown how his total inexperience and radical ideas lead to ongoing Administration ineptitude and a growing nightmare for the country.

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Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Bottom line? Because he is a black man ane white conservative amwrica can't handle it.




That's not the "bottom line", not by a long shot. That's merely a simpleton's attempt to gloss over the very real issues which so many have concerns about this President.


From saying the Cambridge police dept acted " stupidly ", to the beer summit, from giving lame DVD box sets while returning gifts, ... to the firing of Shirley Sherrod ( who by way is no Mother Teressa or Rosa Parks ) there's a very long list of really stupid things which Obama has done that have zero to do w/ his skin color.

And you know it.




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Monday, July 26, 2010 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, I should think he'd go after CONGRESS...they're the ones who leak like a sieve!

I see the predicable mentality was here...obviously you lot are incapable of seeing any good whether it's there or not. I realize there are counter-arguments to some of the stuff I put up; I just don't agree with them.

The fact that you cannot point to even one thing you see as positive--or in some cases can't even address the facts, pretty much puts the cap on you attitude. 'Nuff said. I was actually talking to the people here who aren't blinded by their partisan jihad and can carry on a conversation.

I wonder what you'd do in a world where there was good and bad mixed together, where every opponent wasn't the Devil's spawn...how WOULD you survive!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Monday, July 26, 2010 6:25 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


ObamaCare.

The government will now control your healthcare, will force you to buy into it.

The same people who control the terrorist watchlist, run the DMV, run the Fed Reserve, the CIA, the FBI, and control taxes...

will also control how, when and where you get health care.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

For me, and those I associate with... yes, we have a huge problem with this.

Damn this government.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 6:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Even your girl is starting to be against Obama.

Replace AlQueda with Tea Party, BrownCoats, Libertarians, Republicans, anyone who doesnt agree with Obama.....

"Reshape the standards that apply..."

Im wondering when and where the final straw will happen.



"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 6:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki,

Thanks for the list. It's a place to start.

Rap pretty much nailed it here. We do not disagree that Obama did these things. We disagree that they were things that should have been done. (with a couple common sense exceptions)

So far my analysis of Obama's achievement:

1. 10% things that needed doing
2. 20% things that anyone would do as president, regardless of whether they needed doing.
3. 30% things that should have been done very differently
4. 30% things that probably shouldn't have been done
5. 10% really scary stuff that should never have been done

Here's the scary part: The left appears to actualyl believe that the right doesn't agree with Obama on the grounds of race. This sort of logic can lead to a level of blind obedience that will never be able to question the president.

Once more I'm reminded that the right in america has more guts: republicans could actually speak out against bush.

For the record, sure, there are a handful of loons who will oppose obama for being black. the media will make much of theses people, because the media loves obama, less than they did, but still a lot more than they would any republican.

Still, the racist opponents of obama are probably less numerous than people who oppose bush simply for being a southerner, or from texas. I have actually heard people say "bah ron paul=george bush=texas" so, yeah, i think that exists. Actually, probably the most racism you're hearing about obama is really coming from the "he's a secret muslim" corner of lunacy.

Still, that's not a debate, it's worrisome that some people's minds are there, on either side.

Oh, and River has a point as well: Obama is still campaigning, and never really kicked into management mode. He seems far more concerned with how a bill *looks* to the public than what it actually *does*. I think this is responsible for #3 above.

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Monday, July 26, 2010 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You're forgetting a couple of things, Wulf:

a) She's not "my girl"...she's just the one journalist I've noted who has her people do her homoework, so I trust her more than I trust a lot of MSM. I don't trust the MSM in general, but history has shown she's pretty reliable most of the time.

b) She, and SOME others on MSM (I don't include that stupid Ed Whoever, but Chris Matthews, SOMETIMES Olbermann, and definitely Maddow), have ALWAYS been willing to call it like it is where Obama's concerned, and disagree with him quite openly when they feel it's appropriate.

c) The detention thing sickens me as much as anyone. As does his not dealing with Gitmo, the Patriot Act, "Homeland Security", the wars and more. She's also been quite vocal on those points and more.

I've yet to see such things on FauxNews, which is one reason I don't trust them.

Thank you, DT. Actually, I agree with your percentages for the most part, I'm no blind fan of Obama and never have been, my question was more "why is it all black and black?"

I believe he's done some good things that other Presidents haven't, be they needed doing or not in others' views.

I also disagree about campaigining. I see it differently, and have from the beginning. It is only to me my worst fears about Obama from the start proving themselves right (remember, I didn't vote for him in the Primary). I feared he was too much of a newbie and didn't have the experience dealing with Washington tactics; that he would be swayed by his desire to be "nonpartisan", accept too much compromise, and be pushed around by his advisors. That's what I see having come true, unfortuantely.

I think he actually DOES want to do some of the things he's proposed right...as in the public option for healthcare. I see him as having cowtowed to the right in almost everything in the hopes of getting agreements that were never going to happen, and given in to international pressure on things international (prime example being the whaling ban) in order to gain favor with countries who will never do so (and in turn, it just makes him look weak to the rest of the world). I think he IS weak, but I don't see it as "continuing to campaign", I see it as someone who's not getting things done the way they SHOULD be and not getting done some things that SHOULD be, because he's too stuck on compromise and too willing to follow his advisors.

I also see the Republicans, with their strategy of "party of no" as not being part of the process, of merely trying to stymie everything and corrupt what they couldn't stymie by playing on his (all too obvious) desire to be nonpartisan (as in healthcare, as only one example of many). IF they hadn't determined to be nothing but a roadblock, I think some of the things that have been done could have been done much better, and more having been able to be done.

At least I'm glad to hear from someone who acknowledges it's not all TOTALLY black. I'm sure you give him no points for at least trying to tackle things nobody else has, like the third rail of healthcare, education, infrastructure, DADT, etc. I do. C'est la vie.

I also agree about the racists being in the minority--tho' I would add the "subconscious racists" as making it a slightly bigger minority than you might believe. I believe they've been used by those with the agenda of destroying this administration without realizing they are acting against their own best interests.

I think the Tea Party has been the same, especially as in large part the people interviewed at the demonstrations can't clearly elucidate why they're against him and know little or nothing about policy. They've been fired up, they get press, but I discount them as WORSE newbies and some crackpots who aren't sure what they want and are less sure of what they believe (as in "he's taking away our guns" when gun laws have actually been expanded, and "he's raised taxes" when taxes have been lowered).

I believe there's enough blame to go all around, from Obama to administration, Republicans, and the Tea Party.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Monday, July 26, 2010 7:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The Tea Party deserves WHAT blame?

For what, exactly? Did they, (or I) create ObamaCare?

The Patriot Act?

Do we want comtinie the wars in Afghanistand and Iraq?

GitMo?

What?



"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 9:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The Tea Parties deserves the "blame" for daring to stand up to the ever expanding , free spending , hyper taxing Imperial Federal Gov't.

The Tea Party deserves the "blame" for attending town hall meetings, asking sincere and honest questions of their Representatives, and daring to not be treated like little children by over paid, glorified public servants.






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Monday, July 26, 2010 11:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The Tea Party people deserve the blame for standing up against a tyranical government, and doing it in the most democratic way, while allowing for their identities to be known.

Silly them. Trying to affect change in a non-violent way.

Well, we will see how it works.

There are always other ways.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 12:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The Tea Party has contributed to the divide in this country, the extremism that has encouraged other extremism, and is being used by the GOP and the right to inflame people FURTHER against the government.

If the Republicans were doing their job, and working for us (as much as they ever have), we could improve things. They are being pulled even further to the right by the Tea Party, being encouraged to stalemate everything even more, and so nothing can be accomplished to improve things.

Healtcare COULD have been good. Financial reform COULD have been good. But they ended up being watered down so much that they are virtually gimmes to those they were intended to restrain. If the Republicans had worked to help make them better, they would be better.

The further to the right the Tea Party pushes the Republicans, the more disention in this country, the less things improve. The Tea Party followers are being tricked into acting against their own welfare, to think in absolutes. The government isn't "tyrannical" except in WulfWorld...nor is it "imperial". That it has too much power is indisputable, but those are buzz words I don't accept; you are, without a doubt, the most prefect exampled on this forum of Tea Party mentality; unrealistic, unyielding, uncompromising, filled with buzz words, and more than willing to parrot every taking point that's been fed to you. Your posts are full of it, and as such, you represent perfectly the Tea Party mentality; the idea of black and white, good guys and bad guys, "heroes", "villains"...and none of it is related to reality or to making things work.

It is for that which I blame the Tea Party. For brainwashing people and using them; and trust me, they will discard you just as soon as they get in office, except for the wingnuts they've managed to win the primaries, who won't make it in the generals.

The Tea Party wants to go back 100 years, or more. They want "their" America back. Aside from being unrealistic, wanting literacy tests and other Jim Crow things back isn't something I admire. They say they want the Constitution followed, but they don't really; there are many examples of what they "want" being diametrically opposed to the Constitution. They want things to be the way THEY want, irregardless of the rest of society.

Someday maybe you'll see. Or not. Unfortunately there are too many like you, it's not helping.

I don't know where YOU were, Crappy, but
Quote:

attending town hall meetings, asking sincere and honest questions of their Representatives
isn't what happened. They DISRUPTED town hall meetings and didn't ALLOW people to ask sincere and honest questions of their reps; that was the most infuriating thing about it. Town halls are a good thing, pertinent and probing questions SHOULD be asked, but none of that happened, instead people hollered and shouted and threw insults and threats. They were INSTRUCTED to do just that by their leaders. Like I said, I don't know where YOU were...if anywhere, no doubt at town hall meetings on the RIGHT, which were probably quite reasonable.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Monday, July 26, 2010 12:47 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Of the possible challenges ahead for the Tea Party movement the two main ones are not from the left, but from the right.

The first comes from social conservatives, or the religious right. The Tea Party movement is dominated by fiscal conservatives and leaders like Eric Odom of the American Liberty Alliance, who say social issues like abortion and gay marriage should be avoided.

When asked about abortion, for instance, Tina Dupont of the Tea Party of West Michigan says the group does not discuss it. "Most of us are probably pro-lifers," she said. "But we avoid the topic because it is so divisive."

This has been noted by some on the religious right. "At the national level you have people saying it is all about fiscal issues and not about social issues because they say they are divisive," said Tony Perkins, president of Christian lobby group the Family Research Council.

Chris Merrill said while Tea Partiers can avoid divisive issues at meetings, they cannot if they run for office. "Running a campaign is different," he said. "At some point they have to take a stand on social issues."

Some say a showdown between social and fiscal conservative groups may be inevitable. "Fiscal conservatives want to limit the size of government, social conservatives want to use government to further their agenda," Henson said. "That will likely cause problems."

A LOT more at http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62H2YW20100318 group of white middle class conservatives, are in a collective mood feeling disgruntled and disillusioned by the way the government is working. They feel that those in their government are only looking out for themselves and not the people, this is a sentiment shared people all over the political spectrum. The Tea Partiers, in their disgruntled state have proved themselves susceptible to those looking to take advantage of them, the worst offenders being; Glenn Beck and his crazed rants as well as Sarah Palin and her petty brain dead talking points. Thanks to these people the Tea Party has been manipulated into thinking that all those who did not fit into their mold of a hardcore conservative are responsible for all the nations ills, disregarding the fact that diverse ideals are part of what makes are nation great.

(this from an op-ed about the Captain America/Tea Party fuss, at http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-30115-Atlanta-Comic-Books-Examiner~
y2010m2d12-OpEd-Captain-America-and-the-Tea-Party
Quote:

Such is the zeal in portions of the “tea party” that it is not enough to sweep out living members of the establishment, such as U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. A brisk, ideological scrubbing must be applied to history as well.

So, Glenn Beck, speaking at the Conservative Political Action Conference this month, identified a great enemy of human freedom as ... Teddy Roosevelt. Beck highlighted this damning quote of the occupant of the Oval Office in 1901-1909: “We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used.”

You don’t discern the scandal in this statement? Look closer. “This is not our Founders’ idea of America,” explains Beck. “And this is the cancer that’s eating at America. It is big government — it’s a socialist utopia.”

Evidently, Beck believes “real” conservatives defend wealth that is dishonorably gained and then wasted.

TR picked a number of fights with conservative Republicans, fight-picking being his favorite sport. But, he was a Republican who hated socialism. “It would spell sheer destruction,” he said. “It would produce grosser wrong and outrage, fouler immorality, than any existing system.”

Modern corporate capitalism, he believed, was inevitable, even admirable. He also believed that overly centralized and unaccountable power in a capitalist system creates destructive clashes of labor and capital, rich and poor. So, he busted monopolistic trusts, imposed health standards on filthy meat-packing plants and promoted a more professional, merit-based civil service.

Roosevelt’s progressivism could sound a bit like socialism. When courts struck down laws allowing strikes and limiting maximum work hours, Roosevelt warned, “If the spirit which lies behind these ... decisions obtained in all the actions of the ... courts, we should not only have a revolution, but it would be absolutely necessary to have a revolution because the condition of the worker would become intolerable.”

It was Roosevelt’s political purpose to avoid a revolution. He sought to preserve the market system by regulating its health, safety and fairness. This is an authentic conservative tradition: the use of incremental reform to diffuse radicalism. And, few today would wish to return to 19th century labor, health and antitrust standards.

Those few, however, seemed to be in attendance at the conservative conference, determined to sharp-en an ideological debate.

In the name of constitutional purity, they propose a great undoing. Not just the undoing of President Barack Obama. Also, undo Medicare and Social Security. Undo the American global commitments that proceeded from World War II and the Cold War. Undo progressive-era economic regulations. Undo it all — until America is left with a government appropriate to an isolated, 18th century farming republic.

This is a proposal for time travel, not a policy agenda. The federal government could not shed these accumulated responsibilities without massive suffering and global instability. It is a decidedly radical and not conservative approach to governing.

The alternative is a reform conservatism, of which Roosevelt is a distinguished ancestor. Since the repeal of modernity is not an option, make modern institutions work. Update Medicare and Social Security to encourage market choices and ownership. Bust the public education trust with competition. Diffuse radicalism with reform.

The debate between conservative doers and undoers is ideologically interesting, but in the political realm there is little debate. A candidate running recently in Virginia, New Jersey or Massachusetts on a Beck/Paul platform would have duplicated Paul’s results during his 1988 presidential run. Paul gained less than one-half of 1 percent of the vote. All the Republican winners in these states promised reform of government, not its abolition.

But, I fear that the undoers may resemble Teddy Roosevelt in one disturbing aspect. This I have against the Rough Rider: In the 1912 election, he betrayed his friend, William H. Taft, and his party by running as a third-party candidate. In his hubris, he believed that neither party met his exacting standards of purity. The attitude is familiar today.


http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/02/26/opinion/doc4b8747c51a0ec
769399231.txt


Those quotes make my points for me regarding the Tea Party's effect.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Well, we will see how it works.

There are always other ways.

Oh, give it up, Wulf...you’re only a hero in your own mind; you have no concept what REAL revolution would do, and it would be horrific.

As to
Quote:

The Patriot Act?

Do we want comtinie the wars in Afghanistand and Iraq?

GitMo?

Uhhh, you are forgetting, it was the RIGHT who started all those things, with the approval and applause of the Republicans (bear in mind that it was we liberals who were out there protesting them from the start--and we still want them ended)... You’re also forgetting that Obama is the one who has put DEADLINES on those, while “your” candidate, McCain, wanted Iraq to continue for, what was it, 100 years? You think HE’d have done away with the Patriot Act? Wasn’t he in favor of Gitmo?

Crappy: “ever expanding , free spending”—so where were they when Dumbya was in office, doing comparatively twice as much of that as Obama is doing?

Don’t come back at me with “Stop blaming Bush”; the fact is Dumbya DID create the Patriot Act, Gitmo, START those two wars then ignore Afghanistan so it’s the problem it is today, expand government and the deficit incredibly (just look at our “intelligence” branch...I use the term advisedly), spent like a drunken sailor (hiding the cost of the wars as well), gave tax cuts that widened the gap between rich and poor; PUT US WHERE WE WERE when Obama took over. That you want Obama to “fix” everything immediately that it took Dumbya eight years to put in place is unrealistic. He’s not doing it fast enough for anyone, or ENOUGH for anyone, but that doesn’t change the reality of how it came to be.

I realize none of this means anything to you, they're not the proper "talking points" so they'll be refuted or ignored. Ergo; have fun, I'm off to dinner. I'm sure you will happily agree with each other forever, and anything done by this administration will be the "tyranny of President Barack Hussein Hitler". It's pretty much as I assumed this thread would turn out. At least I tried to introduce some perspective.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:14 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Nix,

Uh huh.

Well, bring on FFF.net 2.0

We cant learn anything from each other so we might as well sit in a circle congratulating other like minded folks on their wonderful revomiting of our own opinions.

Or, in other words, we are so intrenched in our own world view that challanging it threatens our self-esteem and by doing so causes us to retreat into our own delusional world view. Not that I havnt been guilty of it from time to time of course.



"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The Tea Party people deserve the blame for standing up against a tyranical government, and doing it in the most democratic way, while allowing for their identities to be known.

Silly them. Trying to affect change in a non-violent way.

Well, we will see how it works.

There are always other ways.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."



I'm sorry, but the little children's games played by you tea-bagging scum ("We came unarmed - THIS TIME!") just really gets old. And the BS of going, "Hey we tried non-violent change, but remember - there ARE other ways!", really IS a form of violence. After all, if you rob someone by putting your gun in their face and demanding they comply, and you DON'T shoot them, it's still considered armed robbery. And if you threaten them while you're doing it, other charges will apply.

So knock it off already, Wulfie - we all see clearly what you're trying to do. You're trying to intimidate with your childish little veiled threats. Only we're not threatened by you; not even a little bit. Go sell your brand of crazy somewhere else; we ain't buyin'.

"Being called a Liberal by a racist is a badge of honor."

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Tea Parties deserves [sic] the "blame" for daring to stand up to the ever expanding , free spending , hyper taxing Imperial Federal Gov't.



I'm still wondering where all you tea-baggers were while the rest of us were out there protesting those things under YOUR imperial lord and savior Bush. I definitely didn't see you there.

Quote:


The Tea Party deserves the "blame" for attending town hall meetings, asking sincere and honest questions of their Representatives, and daring to not be treated like little children by over paid, glorified public servants.



Yeah, they were SO respectful and sincere at those town hall meetings... ;)

Oh, wait - no, they weren't. And you know it.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:47 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Aww Kwick.. are we bothering you? Ok.

We'll stop trying to make things better. For you.

You poor thing. It must be tough. People have woken up and really, REALLY dont like your "savior".

Its tough for hard core liberalistas right now... I sympathize. I really do.

People arnt buying the whole government being your parent thingy... and its driving those who desperatly WANT the government to be their parent.... mad.

There there little one. You might, just MIGHT, have to grow up if we finally win.

But thats ok.

You can do it!

HUZZAH!



"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Monday, July 26, 2010 1:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I'm still wondering where all you tea-baggers were while the rest of us were out there protesting those things under YOUR imperial lord and savior Bush. I definitely didn't see you there."

Hello,

To be fair... *raises hand* I was here. Back when they were largely Libertarian. Ron Paul jumped to Republican, and a lot of us switched cards to follow him. The Ron Paul rEVOLution. With LOVE as its central theme. A powerful movement made powerful due to a backlash against the infringement of freedoms under the Bush administration.

But Ron Paul didn't win, and the movement seems to have lost a lot of the LOVE. It seems so angry, now. I feel like the Republicans purchased it. It doesn't feel the same today as it did in 2007-2008. It's bigger, but it's also less happy. Despite the major party financing and support, the Tea Party feels poorer.

--Anthony

P.S. Any chance we can cut out the tea-bagger stuff? Slapping folks who are already polarized isn't gonna mellow 'em out.



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, July 26, 2010 4:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Aww Kwick.. are we bothering you? Ok.

We'll stop trying to make things better. For you.



I'm sorry you think your dear and fluffy lord and savior Bush made things better for ANYONE, at least anyone who doesn't earn more than $250,000 a year.

Quote:


You poor thing. It must be tough. People have woken up and really, REALLY dont like your "savior".

Its tough for hard core liberalistas right now... I sympathize. I really do.

People arnt buying the whole government being your parent thingy... and its driving those who desperatly WANT the government to be their parent.... mad.



Is that what's eating you? Is that what you were raving about the other night, with all your "you owe me" blather? Do you REALLY want the government to be your mommy? I know you had a shitty childhood and shitty parents, but has it really driven you mad?

Quote:


There there little one. You might, just MIGHT, have to grow up if we finally win.



Y'know, YOU just might have to grow up, too. Ever think about that? No more playing little toy soldier anymore, tin man.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, July 26, 2010 6:33 PM

ANTIMASON


this talking point on the left to blame "Dumbya" for this abysmal, non existent 'recovery' just isn't holding water anymore. Obama isn't cleaning up any mess that the democrats weren't also equally responsable for. the democrats have had majorities in the house and senate for 4 years, and total control for almost 2 years now. not coincidentally, the deficits have exploded exponentially since then(although in conjunction with liberal republicans). but just under the current president, the trillion dollar stimulus was a failure, the healthcare bill is a nightmare, and financial reform and cap and trade will all be huge tax increases on everybody. and the Bush tax cuts expire soon, on top of everything. in other words, we've basically turned a crash, similar to '29, into what will become a another 15 year long great depression. and, just as it was then, this is the fault of flawed economic theories, wich will result in the same predictable outcome. so because i fundementally disagree with the agenda of the current party in power, i don't see a whole lot to be praiseworthy about towards president Obama and the dems

if he was a libertarian, as charasmatic a person as he is, you want to like him- he could be one of the greatest presidents in modern history. and how oppertune a time, when we need his abilities of persuasion and charisma to advocate the principles liberty. you notice he never talks about these concepts though.. he truly believes in a command and control, top down centralized society. and you just cant run peoples lives, in will never work

about the surpluses under Clinton, does any of that credit go to the republican party, who took control of the house and senate for the first time in 20-30 years? it was a generation of Reagan era conservatives who did that. eventually the power corrupted them though, and they became socially conservative liberals. but when Bush was elected in 2000, republicans had an oppertunity to decentralize this top heavy authoritarian government, purge the beauracracy and return back to classical laissez faire capitalism, and they blew it! and this perception among the left of massive deregulation during this period, what are you talking about? in fact, what regulations were put in place, such as in housing and banking, turned out to be counterproductive and harmful to the economy, as evidenced by our current situation.

and on the Bush tax cuts, if they were indeed only for the super rich, which is untrue but the common myth among the left, what is the left admitting is wrong with that? its an admission in premise that a tax cut is a benefit to people. why then does the left demonize the Bush tax cuts, which benefit a broad range of people of all tax and income brackets? or, why not propose tax cuts greater then 'Bushs'? i dont get it.. and out of pure partisanship you will let them expire, and punish everyone. but if you think letting these cuts expire will result in greater revenues to the federal government(maybe in hopes to pay off this massive deficit), you've got an important lesson in economics coming to you




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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:37 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
You're forgetting a couple of things, Wulf:

a) She's not "my girl"...she's just the one journalist I've noted who has her people do her homoework, so I trust her more than I trust a lot of MSM. I don't trust the MSM in general, but history has shown she's pretty reliable most of the time.


I believe there's enough blame to go all around, from Obama to administration, Republicans, and the Tea Party.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off





Maddow is a journalist? Really? I'm out of touch. I thought she was all opinion Man, you are a piece of work. How does the tea party take any blame?

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:43 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
this talking point on the left to blame "Dumbya" for this abysmal, non existent 'recovery' just isn't holding water anymore. Obama isn't cleaning up any mess that the democrats weren't also equally responsable for. the democrats have had majorities in the house and senate for 4 years, and total control for almost 2 years now. not coincidentally, the deficits have exploded exponentially since then(although in conjunction with liberal republicans). but just under the current president, the trillion dollar stimulus was a failure, the healthcare bill is a nightmare, and financial reform and cap and trade will all be huge tax increases on everybody. and the Bush tax cuts expire soon, on top of everything. in other words, we've basically turned a crash, similar to '29, into what will become a another 15 year long great depression. and, just as it was then, this is the fault of flawed economic theories, wich will result in the same predictable outcome. so because i fundementally disagree with the agenda of the current party in power, i don't see a whole lot to be praiseworthy about towards president Obama and the dems

if he was a libertarian, as charasmatic a person as he is, you want to like him- he could be one of the greatest presidents in modern history. and how oppertune a time, when we need his abilities of persuasion and charisma to advocate the principles liberty. you notice he never talks about these concepts though.. he truly believes in a command and control, top down centralized society. and you just cant run peoples lives, in will never work

about the surpluses under Clinton, does any of that credit go to the republican party, who took control of the house and senate for the first time in 20-30 years? it was a generation of Reagan era conservatives who did that. eventually the power corrupted them though, and they became socially conservative liberals. but when Bush was elected in 2000, republicans had an oppertunity to decentralize this top heavy authoritarian government, purge the beauracracy and return back to classical laissez faire capitalism, and they blew it! and this perception among the left of massive deregulation during this period, what are you talking about? in fact, what regulations were put in place, such as in housing and banking, turned out to be counterproductive and harmful to the economy, as evidenced by our current situation.

and on the Bush tax cuts, if they were indeed only for the super rich, which is untrue but the common myth among the left, what is the left admitting is wrong with that? its an admission in premise that a tax cut is a benefit to people. why then does the left demonize the Bush tax cuts, which benefit a broad range of people of all tax and income brackets? or, why not propose tax cuts greater then 'Bushs'? i dont get it.. and out of pure partisanship you will let them expire, and punish everyone. but if you think letting these cuts expire will result in greater revenues to the federal government(maybe in hopes to pay off this massive deficit), you've got an important lesson in economics coming to you






Hello, I'm Kaneman and I approve this message....

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 5:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

P.S. Any chance we can cut out the tea-bagger stuff? Slapping folks who are already polarized isn't gonna mellow 'em out.




Shall I use Tea Party-backed candidate Ken Buck's words for them, and just call them "those dumbasses in the Tea Party"? After all, they still seem to be backing him, even after he referred to them as "dumbasses" when he was discussing them with a Democrat colleague.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 6:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I’m going to try not to get caught up in the back-and-forthing, I’ll just refute a few things:

The Republicans had the triple-threat: House, Senate, President (and Supreme Court, too, actually) for six years. They had it under Bush and Clinton. The Dems had both House and Senate under Eisenhower, Nixon, Kennedy, Ford and Carter. Notice how the debt didn’t rise much.

It starts going up strongly when the Republicans got the Senate in 1980. It leveled off a bit during Clinton, when the Repubs had a double threat, and I give them all kinds of points for that (I also give Clinton some points, as he worked WITH them to bring it down), but had its single largest bump up until then under Bush, again triple threat.

The concept that the Dems could turn that around under a Repub President in four years, given where it had gotten to, is in my opinion fallacious. Yes, they haven’t done it, I don’t like that. And yes, they aren’t doing it, I don’t like that either. But if one takes into account how it got there, and that it was grown without any attention to infrastructure, with tax cuts and benefits to the rich, and by trashing the economy, that leaves a lot for anyone following Bush to “fix”. And yes, those “flawed economic theories” were begun under Bush, copying Reagan’s “voo doo economics”, as even Pappa Bush realized.

You cannot damn any one party without taking history into account, much as you’d like to, I know. No President acts within a vaccum.

I fully agree with your second paragraph, DT, except I think the reasons are different, as I posted before. Most of the third as well, except for the tax cuts part. I’ve shown over and over that trickle-down does NOT work; so there’s no debating, since you are convinced despite hefty evidence that it does. Tax cuts do increase the deficit, that’s also been shown over and over, despite Republican talking points that they “pay for themselves”—they simply do NOT.

Notice how the debt/GDP ratio was RAISED under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II—Reagan was the big believer in Tricke-Down, so if it works so well and tax cuts work so well, why is that the case?

I already explained the blame I place on the Tea Party, so won’t repeat myself. And I’ll put Maddow’s fact checking up against ANY fact checking done by FauxNews, happily. To say otherwise is to ignore the facts, or to be ignorant of who checks them and who does not. To say she is all opinion is pure partisan bullshit unless proven otherwise, which is impossible. It’s obvious such an opinion is garnered from other sources than actually checking anything out.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 7:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Good graphs Niki! Thanks for posting them.

Yeah, unbelievable that folks keep saying that those tax cuts for the wealthy will lead to more jobs and higher govt income. Duh! We've had those tax cuts for several years, and none of that happened! Rather the reverse...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 7:55 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

But if one takes into account how it got there, and that it was grown without any attention to infrastructure, with tax cuts and benefits to the rich, and by trashing the economy, that leaves a lot for anyone following Bush to “fix”.


im sorry Niki, i just disagree with your premise-cutting taxes is a good thing, and the Bush tax cuts cover a broad range of people, most importantly small businesses. with the tax code as it is, lower income people pay very little relative to people in higher brackets anyways. what is the argument against letting people keep as much of their earnings as possible? that is what promotes drive and incentive and innovation. then, the consumer, the individual, spends and invests his money as he chooses- rather then the government.

Milton Friedman once said that the principle behind taxation breaks down two ways- that government must use force, or coercion, in the first place, to collect the taxes from you, and the second is that government can spend that money better then you can.

in that respect, letting people keep what they rightfully earn is a net benefit to everyone. but just look at the increase in revenues after the Harding/Coolidge tax cuts, the Truman/Eisenhower era reductions, and the Kennedy(Lbjs) and later Reagan era tax cuts.

Quote:

And yes, those “flawed economic theories” were begun under Bush, copying Reagan’s “voo doo economics”, as even Pappa Bush realized.

You cannot damn any one party without taking history into account, much as you’d like to, I know. No President acts within a vaccum.



i completely agree, which is why we should drop this partisan bickering, and focus on simple principles that we can agree on. i cannot fathom why we as Americans will not rally behind the principles of liberty as invisioned by our founders, and return to that. im willing to bet that they did not intend us to be a highly centralized, secularized democracy with a command and control economy. i know Jefferson and Madison vehemently opposed the creation of a central bank, such as we now call the Fed, which facilitates this monolith of a collectivist government.

Quote:

I fully agree with your second paragraph, DT, except I think the reasons are different, as I posted before. Most of the third as well, except for the tax cuts part. I’ve shown over and over that trickle-down does NOT work; so there’s no debating, since you are convinced despite hefty evidence that it does. Tax cuts do increase the deficit, that’s also been shown over and over, despite Republican talking points that they “pay for themselves”—they simply do NOT.
Notice how the debt/GDP ratio was RAISED under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II—Reagan was the big believer in Tricke-Down, so if it works so well and tax cuts work so well, why is that the case?



are the deficits due to shortfalls in tax revenue, or increases in spending? i think there is an important distinction to make there. when i get a chance, i will look into it further, but i know that sales revenues increases dramatically when tax cuts have been tried.

in fairness, to pay for a government that attempts to regulate society equally and be everything to everyone, you need to collect as many taxes as possible; we already cant afford the government we have. i want government that doesnt infringe on people, therefore im willing to pay fewer taxes. so i understand why you on the left want to seize so much of people incomes, it's that you genuinely believe it would be better spent by government. not only better, there are grand goals that you would like to achieve, like a green energy eonomy, universal care, universal education. its expensive


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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 8:03 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

P.S. Any chance we can cut out the tea-bagger stuff? Slapping folks who are already polarized isn't gonna mellow 'em out.




Shall I use Tea Party-backed candidate Ken Buck's words for them, and just call them "those dumbasses in the Tea Party"? After all, they still seem to be backing him, even after he referred to them as "dumbasses" when he was discussing them with a Democrat colleague.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.





"Those dumb-asses that keep asking me about birth certificates"....Tea party is not birthers....Only idiots believe he was talking about the tea party and not birthers who are their own one issue morons.

Keep watching olberman and maddow. And next time when you use quotes don't make em up. You have zero credibility on this board. Why don't you go back and change your posts like you do with AuRaptor you little homosexual.

AT THE TEA PARTY.....is different than IN THE TEA PARTY.....birthers show up everywhere.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 8:16 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Notice how the debt/GDP ratio was RAISED under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II—Reagan was the big believer in Tricke-Down, so if it works so well and tax cuts work so well, why is that the case?

I already explained the blame I place on the Tea Party, so won’t repeat myself. And I’ll put Maddow’s fact checking up against ANY fact checking done by FauxNews, happily. To say otherwise is to ignore the facts, or to be ignorant of who checks them and who does not. To say she is all opinion is pure partisan bullshit unless proven otherwise, which is impossible. It’s obvious such an opinion is garnered from other sources than actually checking anything out.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off




Nice table - the final column is the most significant (and hence the most damning). And the presidential terms with red numbers... 6/6 for Republicans!

Also note that Clinton needed two terms to significantly bring the debt down from the finances he inherited from his predecessor (or it took that long to rein in the spending). I expect this will be even more true in the aftermath of Bush II (and only next term's president will gain the credit).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 8:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

P.S. Any chance we can cut out the tea-bagger stuff? Slapping folks who are already polarized isn't gonna mellow 'em out.




Shall I use Tea Party-backed candidate Ken Buck's words for them, and just call them "those dumbasses in the Tea Party"? After all, they still seem to be backing him, even after he referred to them as "dumbasses" when he was discussing them with a Democrat colleague.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.





"Those dumb-asses that keep asking me about birth certificates"....Tea party is not birthers....Only idiots believe he was talking about the tea party and not birthers who are their own one issue morons.

Keep watching olberman and maddow. And next time when you use quotes don't make em up. You have zero credibility on this board. Why don't you go back and change your posts like you do with AuRaptor you little homosexual.



FAIL. You just made up your own quote, right there. You and Rappy seem to follow the same mold. Maybe he's just another 14 year-old like you...

I really do appreciate being lectured about "credibility" from someone who admits to lying about who they are and how many usernames they're currently using. That's rich.

The CORRECT quote is:

Quote:

"Will you tell those dumbasses at the Tea Party to stop asking questions about birth certificates?"


The birthers ARE the Tea Party. They're the exact same dumbasses. You are one of them. Even Ken Buck thinks you're a dumbass. And you're here defending him for calling you a dumbass, futher proving his point that you ARE a dumbass.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 8:26 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Tea Parties deserves the "blame" for daring to stand up to the ever expanding , free spending , hyper taxing Imperial Federal Gov't.

The Tea Party deserves the "blame" for attending town hall meetings, asking sincere and honest questions of their Representatives, and daring to not be treated like little children by over paid, glorified public servants.







And they deserve "blame" for being completely okay with the exact same shit under Dubya, even defending it endlessly, as you were well known for.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:33 AM

HERO


Quote:

It's a paradox.


Damn...I thought this thread was about going back in time and killing Obama's dad or Obama going back in time to kill Hitler or something like that.



"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:42 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


After ramming an illegal and unConstitutional ObamaCare down the peoples throats... after spending their money to bail out compainies undeserving of continuation... after attempting to socialize everything... the free American people hate us?

How can THAT be?



"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
After ramming an illegal and unConstitutional ObamaCare down the peoples throats... after spending their money to bail out compainies undeserving of continuation... after attempting to socialize everything... the free American people hate us?

How can THAT be?




When you speak of bailouts for companies that shouldn't have been allowed to continue, you are no doubt speaking of Halliburton and Blackwater, right? After all, they wouldn't have continued to exist without their welfare handouts...

And again, I find it odd that you uttered not one peep in protest during the previous eight years. But, as you said before, you were "asleep". Maybe we should call you Rip Van Wulfie, since you're capable of sleeping through entire Republican administrations!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 11:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anti: we’ll have to agree to disagree. Facts have shown that tax cuts for the rich do NOT decrease the deficit, nor do they increase anyone else’s wealth but the already wealthy. Tax cuts for everyone, when the economy is stable, help everyone, granted. But trickle-down does not work, end of story, from all I have researched.

Take away the two wars Bush started and his tax cuts, and tax cuts, and look where we might be:

Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Bush tax cuts (along with the economic downturn) are what is driving the U.S. deficit, not stimulus spending.
Quote:

Some critics continue to assert that President George W. Bush’s policies bear little responsibility for the deficits the nation faces over the coming decade — that, instead, the new policies of President Barack Obama and the 111th Congress are to blame. Most recently, a Heritage Foundation paper downplayed the role of Bush-era policies (for more on that paper, see p. 4). Nevertheless, the fact remains: Together with the economic downturn, the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years (see Figure 1).

The deficit for fiscal year 2009 was $1.4 trillion and, at nearly 10 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), was the largest deficit relative to the size of the economy since the end of World War II. If current policies are continued without changes, deficits will likely approach those figures in 2010 and remain near $1 trillion a year for the next decade.

The events and policies that have pushed deficits to these high levels in the near term, however, were largely outside the new Administration’s control. If not for the tax cuts enacted during the presidency of George W. Bush that Congress did not pay for, the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that were initiated during that period, and the effects of the worst economic slump since the Great Depression (including the cost of steps necessary to combat it), we would not be facing these huge deficits in the near term.

While President Obama inherited a dismal fiscal legacy, that does not diminish his responsibility to propose policies to address our fiscal imbalance and put the weight of his office behind them. Although policymakers should not tighten fiscal policy in the near term while the economy remains fragile, they and the nation at large must come to grips with the nation’s long-term deficit problem. But we should not mistake the causes of our predicament.

Recession Caused Sharp Deterioration in Budget Outlook

Whoever won the presidency in 2008 was going to face a grim fiscal situation, a fact already well known as the presidential campaign got underway. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) presented a sobering outlook in its 2008 summer update,[1] and during the autumn, the news got relentlessly worse. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) that became embroiled in the housing meltdown, failed in early September; two big financial firms — AIG and Lehman Brothers — collapsed soon thereafter; and others teetered. In December 2008, the National Bureau of Economic Research confirmed that the nation was in recession and pegged the starting date as December 2007. By the time CBO issued its new projections on January 7, 2009 — two weeks before Inauguration Day — it had already put the 2009 deficit at well over $1 trillion.[2]

The recession battered the budget, driving down tax revenues and swelling outlays for unemployment insurance, food stamps, and other safety-net programs.[3] Using CBO’s August 2008 projections as a benchmark, we calculate that the changed economic outlook accounts for over $400 billion of the deficit each year in 2009 through 2011 and slightly smaller amounts in subsequent years. Those effects persist; even in 2018, the deterioration in the economy since the summer of 2008 will account for over $250 billion in added deficits, much of it in the form of additional debt-service costs.

Bush Tax Cuts, War Costs Do Lasting Harm to Budget Outlook

Some commentators blame recent legislation — the stimulus bill and the financial rescues — for today’s record deficits. Yet those costs pale next to other policies enacted since 2001 that have swollen the deficit. Those other policies may be less conspicuous now, because many were enacted years ago and they have long since been absorbed into CBO’s and other organizations’ budget projections.

Just two policies dating from the Bush Administration — tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — accounted for over $500 billion of the deficit in 2009 and will account for almost $7 trillion in deficits in 2009 through 2019, including the associated debt-service costs. [6] (The prescription drug benefit enacted in 2003 accounts for further substantial increases in deficits and debt, which we are unable to quantify due to data limitations.) These impacts easily dwarf the stimulus and financial rescues. Furthermore, unlike those temporary costs, these inherited policies (especially the tax cuts and the drug benefit) do not fade away as the economy recovers (see Figure 1).

Without the economic downturn and the fiscal policies of the previous Administration, the budget would be roughly in balance over the next decade. That would have put the nation on a much sounder footing to address the demographic challenges and the cost pressures in health care that darken the long-run fiscal outlook.[7]

The Effect of President Obama’s Budget

The key question is: where do we go from here? President Obama’s 2011 budget proposes to reduce anticipated deficits over the next ten years, chiefly by letting the Bush tax cuts for high-income taxpayers expire on schedule, closing certain tax loopholes and reforming the international tax system, keeping estate taxes at their 2009 parameters, enacting health care reform, and freezing (in aggregate) most appropriations for non-security domestic programs for the next three years. The President also supports another round of temporary recovery measures that would boost the deficit in 2010 through 2012, a proposal that is appropriate in size and well targeted.[8] Center on Budget and Policy Priorities’ analyses have found that in aggregate, the President’s proposals would reduce deficits over the 2011-2020 period by an estimated $1.3 trillion.[9]

Like most fiscal analysts, we believe that the Administration and Congress will need to take considerably larger steps. The President himself acknowledges that his proposals do not fully put the budget on a sustainable footing and has established a bipartisan fiscal commission to recommend more substantial deficit reductions. First and foremost, policymakers will need to restrain the growth of health care costs. The health reform legislation begins that process. It takes important initial steps to restructure the health care payment and delivery systems and to move away from paying providers for more visits or procedures and toward rewarding effective, high-value health care. As we learn more about how to slow health care cost growth without endangering health care quality, strong additional measures will be essential. But restraining health care cost growth will not itself be sufficient to address the long-term fiscal problem. Other actions also will be needed, including steps to raise additional revenue and make changes in other programs.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

If our founding fathers hadn’t wanted a secularized democract, they wouldn’t have put in place the dividion between government and religion. Whatever they may have practiced religion-wise individually, they were thinking of the good of the nation when they did that.

As to Tea Party and birthers, they obviously are not one and the same. But the birthers evolved FROM Tea Party members, and still ARE Tea Party members. That’s one reason they get tagged together. The quote is accurate, however. He wants the support of the Tea Party; birthers are part of the Tea Party; he won’t PUBLICLY knock them. That’s all that happened; he spoke privately, it made it into the public eye...but if asked ON CAMERA how he felt about the birthers, he would have said something diplomatic, without backing them. He knows they’re part of his base, whether he likes them or not.

KPO, you’re right on in my opinion. I’ve heard several times that the Republicans WANT things to keep going sour, because if they get the guy in office next time, he’ll get the credit. I find this unfathomable, but their actions seem to indicate they want to keep the country down. That kind of thinking makes me just fume, if it’s true.

How can it be, Wulf? Because your party won’t do what you think they will. The Republicans “rammed down” our throats waterboarding, tax cuts and benefits for the rich, the Patriot Act and two wars. They turned a blind eye to Wall Street (and bailed THEM out, remember, without so much as a “don’t do it again” to stop them from doing it again...which, by the way, they aready ARE). Talk about your companies undeserving of continuation—bear in mind the Republicans are, right now, arguing AGAINST Wall Street reform, AGAINST regulation of the oil industry, AGAINST stopping drilling until the remaining rigs are checked out for safety. You just don’t get it at all...you see and hear what we do, but it just goes straight over your head. If you were able to pay as much attention to FACTS as you do fantasies and dreams of “heroes”, you could really see what’s happening.

The powerful have us in their grip. Wall Street is powerful; the rich are powerful; CEOs with golden parachutes are powerful, lobbyists are powerful, oil companies are powerful, corporations are powerful. Do you really think lauding capitalism, further tax cuts for the rich, deregulation of Wall Street, big oil and corporations is going to give “The People” any power?? Because that's what you and yours are advocating for, and what they will do if you put them in power. You just don't realize it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of __________________, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I don't get it?

Ok.

1. I don't agree with waterboarding, its pointless as an interogation tool (like all torture is.) Plus, in any war, you must always keep the moral high ground... and its just disgusting that we would do something like that.

2. The Patriot Act. I never supported it. Ron Paul never supported it. But to a T, almost every single Democrat AND Republican did.

3. Im not a Republican. Im center right overall, like the rest of the country. Some of my views are VERY conservative, but that doesnt make me a neo-con, a Republican or a Vulcan. They are just MY views.

4. back to the Patriot Act. Obama has not gotten rid of it, has he? In fact, if I remember correctly, he authorized the military to kill American citizens SUSPECTED of "terrorist" ties.

5. Continuation of bail-outs, holding the housing market in a stand-still, continuing unemployment benefits, and regulating business only DEEPEN our financial hole. Not to mention TRILLIONS spent on easily corrupted programs that do nothing.

Like ObamaCare. How much has been spent on that garbage already?


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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:34 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


5. continuing unemployment benefits, and regulating business only DEEPEN our financial hole.



For not being a lock-stepping neo-con, you sure do like to parrot their bullshit for them.

Sorry son, but math disagrees with you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 6:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, I'll agree with your first three, although you're hardly "right" and you're DEFINITELY a high RWA. I'm glad you at least feel the way you do about the first two.

Once again, ignoring any potential good that's been done, you focus on your favorite talking points. The question was why hasn't Obama and his administration gotten ANY credit for the good things they've done, but I realize that's not the question you want to answer. So be it. You already know I feel the same about most of the things you enumerated in #4 & 5; that's not the question. Aren't you constantly complaining about people turning the subject and not answering the question(s) posed? Or did I miss something?

Regulating business increases the debt, eh? You don't see lack of regulation as being part of what put us here, you know, with derivatives and such, obviously. Huh, your reasoning escapes me.

If you want to know what I call you a high RWA, you said it yourself: "extending unemployment":
Quote:

What reasons do high RWAs give for giving equality short-shrift? Well, they say, ultimately complete equality is a pipe dream. Natural forces inevitably govern the worth of the individual. And people should have to earn their places in society, not get any free rides. The poor can pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they really want to. Lots of people have, haven’t they?

Given all of this, do you trust him when he says he’s in favor of a level playing field? He’s against programs that would give the disadvantaged a better chance. Does he really believe the poor can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, or is he content to let them face an uphill struggle that very few can overcome? It doesn’t bother the high RWA that masses of people are poor. That’s their tough luck. And some racial groups are just naturally inferior to others, he says.

That about covers it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name ‘Nike”,
signing off


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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 6:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


What is an RWA?

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 6:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"The Patriot Act. I never supported it. Ron Paul never supported it. But to a T, almost every single Democrat AND Republican did."

Hello,

This is a place where I recall widespread dissent, so this statement would appear to be fallacious.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 6:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


As to the "good" hes done. Its soo far outweighed by the bad as to not even be mentioned.

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