REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Oh, this is rich...

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Friday, June 25, 2010 07:04
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4271
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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:16 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/06/23/state/n111
147D00.DTL&tsp=1


Fuck you Jenny McCarthy.

Fuck you Mexicans.

Fuck you hippie lib bastards.

You do realize that death by whooping cough is pretty awful right? You cough so hard, that a lot of times you break your back.




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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:19 PM

CHRISISALL


Wow. Lots of hate here, Wulf.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:24 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Wow. Lots of hate here, Wulf."

Sorry. I can't stand the idea that a child dies from this because either:

1. Some redneck listens to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines.

2. Some poor illegal Mexican (who lives in a shithole of a country) brings it here cus they don't/can't immunize their children... or

3. Some stupid fucking hippie lib doesnt immunize their illegitimate baby cus its not "natural". Or, allows them to starve on some "vegan" diet.

ETS: Yes, yes, I do have issues with hippies. These spoiled brats, growing up in one of the safest, most prosperous societies on the planet and what do they do?

Waste it. Become the worst, most spoiled group thats ever lived.

Gah!!!!

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:39 PM

BYTEMITE


*Back away slowly, wave and smile*

Um, whooping cough is caused by a bacteria.

Bordetella pertussis.

..See...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whooping_cough

I'm not sure why they're talking about a vaccine for a bacteria? Vaccine are for virus. I had all my immunizations when I was first born cause my parents are dumb, but I still got whooping cough later on. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't work that way.

Vaccines seem to be an unrelated issue. It's a hospital hygiene issue, and possibly a problem with bacteria resistance to antibodies.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:46 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis


"Pertussis vaccines are highly effective, strongly recommended, and save many infant lives every year"

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:46 PM

DREAMTROVE


You can make a vaccine against a bacteria. I'm lost. Jenny McCarthy.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:50 PM

BYTEMITE


I saw what the wikipedia article claims, that doesn't mean it necessarily makes sense.

Did you notice that it's whole cell? That means the vaccines are live bacteria. I don't understand why they're injecting live bacteria into people to try to stop a disease caused by the bacteria. What?

And then they have to get boosters every four years?

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:58 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So... we are all suppossed to follow lock-step with PN (no offense)

No vaccines for anyone?

Really?


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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:12 PM

CITIZEN


So Wulf:

I guess you believe the government should force people to get vaccinations then?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:52 PM

DREAMTROVE


Byte,

I concur. Synthetic Antigen ought to be enough

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:39 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So Wulf:

I guess you believe the government should force people to get vaccinations then?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Hey English man, stay out of this debate it's for Americans only. No one cares when you ask "should Government" your "government" is not ours. You are irrelevant when Americans are talking about anything. Seriously, do you think any American on this board gives a shit what you think? You are fucking British and most likely have bad teeth...Well, it's true.....

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Wow. Lots of hate here, Wulf."

Sorry. I can't stand the idea that a child dies from this because either:

1. Some redneck listens to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines.

2. Some poor illegal Mexican (who lives in a shithole of a country) brings it here cus they don't/can't immunize their children... or

3. Some stupid fucking hippie lib doesnt immunize their illegitimate baby cus its not "natural". Or, allows them to starve on some "vegan" diet.

ETS: Yes, yes, I do have issues with hippies. These spoiled brats, growing up in one of the safest, most prosperous societies on the planet and what do they do?

Waste it. Become the worst, most spoiled group thats ever lived.

Gah!!!!





So you're saying you're AGAINST all these people having the freedom to choose whether or not to vaccinate? Am I reading that correctly? Wulfie's officially AGAINST freedom? He's FOR the government telling us all how to live, what to do, how to think?

[sarcasm]I'm shocked. [/sarcasm]


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:11 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Wow. Lots of hate here, Wulf."

Sorry. I can't stand the idea that a child dies from this because either:

1. Some redneck listens to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines.

2. Some poor illegal Mexican (who lives in a shithole of a country) brings it here cus they don't/can't immunize their children... or

3. Some stupid fucking hippie lib doesnt immunize their illegitimate baby cus its not "natural". Or, allows them to starve on some "vegan" diet.

ETS: Yes, yes, I do have issues with hippies. These spoiled brats, growing up in one of the safest, most prosperous societies on the planet and what do they do?

Waste it. Become the worst, most spoiled group thats ever lived.

Gah!!!!





So you're saying you're AGAINST all these people having the freedom to choose whether or not to vaccinate? Am I reading that correctly? Wulfie's officially AGAINST freedom? He's FOR the government telling us all how to live, what to do, how to think?

[sarcasm]I'm shocked. [/sarcasm]


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor



No where in his post does he mention mandated vaccines. I think he's pointing out that people who opt not to vaccinate are idiots...and I'm sure he'd agree that they are free to be as dumb as you if they so choose.......

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So Wulf:

I guess you believe the government should force people to get vaccinations then?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Hey English man, stay out of this debate it's for Americans only. No one cares when you ask "should Government" your "government" is not ours. You are irrelevant when Americans are talking about anything. Seriously, do you think any American on this board gives a shit what you think? You are fucking British and most likely have bad teeth...Well, it's true.....



By that logic, you being an American means you're 50 pounds overweight...

Well, it's true...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:38 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So Wulf:

I guess you believe the government should force people to get vaccinations then?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Hey English man, stay out of this debate it's for Americans only. No one cares when you ask "should Government" your "government" is not ours. You are irrelevant when Americans are talking about anything. Seriously, do you think any American on this board gives a shit what you think? You are fucking British and most likely have bad teeth...Well, it's true.....



By that logic, you being an American means you're 50 pounds overweight...

Well, it's true...



That would appear to be the case...by that logic.. However, that makes him no less relevant...and you know that. Do you ever care what a British clown thinks...of course not....Well, it's true....

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:53 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

That would appear to be the case...by that logic.. However, that makes him no less relevant...and you know that. Do you ever care what a British clown thinks...of course not....Well, it's true....


So I'm confused, one minute you imply I'm irrelevant, then you imply that I'm relevant. Actually I think you're confused, perhaps the fifty pounds extra fat is in your head? At any rate, it's lucky no one, least of all me, American or otherwise cares what you think.... Well, it's true...



--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:58 AM

KANEMAN


Irrelevant......

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:31 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

I'm not sure why they're talking about a vaccine for a bacteria? Vaccine are for virus.


Vaccines are for any pathogen, Virus or Bacteria.

If a whole live unweakened cell is used, it's called Inoculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inoculation

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:55 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Nice one, Kwick.

1. No, Im not for government-mandated vaccinations or innoculations.

2. Yes, people have the absolute right to be stupid.

3. It makes me veeeery angry that their stupidity is harming children.

4. Uggh, can't believe Im quoting an often (mis)used lib talking point but... In this case, education IS the key.

... and pimp-slapping Jenny McCarthy... and hippies... and liberals... and rednecks... lol

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:11 AM

BYTEMITE


Do inocs work well? I've heard they don't, but maybe there's been advancements in disabling the pathogen, or maybe the ones that do work use a harmless but related microbe.

Vaccines for bacteria. Still seems odd to me. I can understand using synthetics, and I even understand the membrane of the bacteria having protein that antibodies will build a response to. And that prevention is as important as cure.

I guess it just seems redundant if you have antibiotics, and you're also not going to get infected if you have a care for hygiene. The reason I got whooping cough when I was younger was cause I was on vacation at the time. Apparently the hotel room wasn't very well cleaned.

Wulf: maybe the thing we shouldn't be angry about is the people not getting vaccines, maybe we should be angry about the pharmaceutical companies putting in the additives that put people off from getting vaccines. If the vaccine also contains a toxic cocktail, maybe some of the complaints are valid. The consumer has a right to not choose to get a product they feel is unsafe or dangerous. It's a risk assessment, and some people have decided there's more risk to their children getting the vaccine than being infected. Perhaps some of them have been wrong, unfortunately, but that's perhaps more of a personal tragedy than bad parenting. I don't think we can blame them for this.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:23 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Byte,

I concur. Synthetic Antigen ought to be enough



Dream and Byte -- you've probably read the vaccine links posted by now, so you know that you can make vaccines against some bacteria (the one in question here is the DPT vaccine which covers three different microorganisms)as well as some viruses. Different bugs require different types of vaccines in order to stimulate a proper immune response in the person being vaccinated. Some vaccines can use parts of the offending microorganism and some need to have a weakened living microorganism. As far as I'm aware, synthetic antigen doesn't stimulate enough of an immune response in the person being vaccinated in a lot of cases to make it worthwhile(but I could be mistaken in this as I'm not up on the most recent advances in vaccination technology).

Kaneman: I don't know whether to take what you are saying as literally, but I will respond that often a 3rd party's perspective (that is, someone who isn't directly involved in whatever the situation is) can be interesting and enlightening. One of the things I appreciate about this board is that we get to hear the perspective of people who do not live in the US, such as Citizen.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Nice one, Kwick.

1. No, Im not for government-mandated vaccinations or innoculations.

2. Yes, people have the absolute right to be stupid.

3. It makes me veeeery angry that their stupidity is harming children.

4. Uggh, can't believe Im quoting an often (mis)used lib talking point but... In this case, education IS the key.

... and pimp-slapping Jenny McCarthy... and hippies... and liberals... and rednecks... lol




Okay, so you're FOR them having a choice; you're just against them actually CHOOSING something YOU wouldn't choose. Is that it?

Also, these are - in your own words - "Mexicans" and "Hippies" and their children, all of whom you profess to hate. Why would you have a problem with them dying? You should be out whooping it up, so to speak. Shouldn't you?

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Okay, so you're FOR them having a choice; you're just against them actually CHOOSING something YOU wouldn't choose. Is that it?"

Yes. Actually, I am for the choice to be stupid, but I am against them actually BEING stupid. As it is not my right to force them to live a certain way, I am left being angered at the choices they make that hurt innocent children.

"Shouldn't you?" *sigh I hate pretty much everything and anyone. Too much time on the internet I suppose.

But, I really get angered (again) when innocent children (and innocents in general) are hurt because of the stupidity (or predation) of others.

....waiting for the obligatory "But, but you a raciss!" comments.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


Yes. Actually, I am for the choice to be stupid, but I am against them actually BEING stupid. As it is not my right to force them to live a certain way, I am left being angered at the choices they make that hurt innocent children.



Well, I'm against people making stupid choices, too. That's why I'm against Republicans like you. You choose stupidly all the time. You are aggressively stupid, AND you're stupidly aggressive to boot. Am I wrong to point it out? Should I *NOT* be angered by your stupidity? Your choices would hurt innocent children as well, you know.

Quote:


"Shouldn't you?" *sigh I hate pretty much everything and anyone. Too much time on the internet I suppose.



Sure, blame it on the internet. Or violence on TV, rap music, that ol' Devil Booze... You're just making excuses for your own failings and shortcomings. You hate because you enjoy it. Especially if you can blame it on "the others".

Quote:


But, I really get angered (again) when innocent children (and innocents in general) are hurt because of the stupidity (or predation) of others.

....waiting for the obligatory "But, but you a raciss!" comments.



No need for such comments. Your record is plainly evident, and speaks for itself.

You are actively in favor of arming EVERYONE, educating no one, and then turning them loose on each other. Yet you claim to not want "innocents" to be hurt. Yet you'll happily blow holes in anyone who challenges your "right" to blow holes in people or harass them for nothing more than the color of their skin (see the Arizona law threads). You've advocated rounding up and killing "all the liberals and hippies", who are guilty of no crime except that you're offended by their very existence.

This is you in a nutshell, Wulfie-boy. You are a hard little ball of anger, just searching for a place to go off, hoping for a chance to lash out at that which you blame for your failure.


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Waited for the obligatory comments, and was not disapointed.

Thanks Kwick!


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Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:29 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Waited for the obligatory comments, and was not disapointed.

Thanks Kwick!





Care to point out where I called you a "raciss"?


I must've missed it.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:18 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Vaccines for bacteria. Still seems odd to me. I can understand using synthetics, and I even understand the membrane of the bacteria having protein that antibodies will build a response to. And that prevention is as important as cure.

I guess it just seems redundant if you have antibiotics,


Except the overuse of Antibiotics has created resistant strains.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:40 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

"Except the overuse of Antibiotics has created resistant strains."


Yes, and not everybody has access to healthcare, and for some people (usually the elderly, immunocompromised, and infants, but sometimes other populations like pregnant women), antibiotics aren't enough. The other thing is that just getting the illness leads to missed school and work days (decreased economic productivity), and medical complications (which then costs more healthcare dollars) as well as personal/family suffering from having an illness.

ETA: But we seem to interupting an argument here, by getting back on topic...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Except the overuse of Antibiotics has created resistant strains.


The key word here is "overuse" and there's one part being overlooked, the part you edited out: that there are places bacteria congregate, such as in hospitals, that are not sterilized well enough and so create breeding grounds for resistant strains.

Most of the time when someone I know has gotten hit by a super resistant strain, it's been because they had surgery, and picked it up at the hospital.

Hmm, I see Malachite posted something that's possibly a good point about what people can afford, I'm going to read that now.

EDIT: @ Malachite. The question I have, of course, is how much a vaccine reduces those impacts, and a suspicion that vaccines sometimes MAKE people sick.

Also, more crazy conspiracy theorist minded, wondering why vaccination programs tend to be targeted towards the poor.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kane is, as always, disgusting and irrelevant. I would say "pathetic", but, tho' he is, he's ugly enough that I have trouble even pittying him.

I care what people in other countries think; first off, we're all human; second, we can learn a lot from people outside our borders--I've learned a lot that my country censors, actually; third, if anyone doesn't belong here, it's xenophobes like you; fourth, I've never met a British clown, I would assume they would be as intelligent or stupid as any American clown...you being a primary example; fifth, you embody the very worst of American mentality, for which we are reviled around the world; and lastly, Citizen proved himself FAR more intelligent than you.

That's all you're worth.

I know the overuse of antibiotics has caused a problem; we are so busy killing any germs we come in cotact with that it has actually been deleterious to our overall health. I can't speak to specific vaccines, so I'll let you guys.

What I CAN speak to, as usual, is Wulf's absurd statements about hippies. I never knew a hippie who wouldn't vaccinate their child, or take them to the doctor for any good reason. Given your inexplicable hatred of them, it's not surprising, but in reality you should look to Scientologists (who are definitely anti-medicine.
John Travolta's chronically ill son Jett's death could have been avoided had his Scientology practising parents decided not to follow their religion's anti-medicine theories) and Jehovah's Witnesses (An early leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses, C. J. Woodworth, maintained a continuing opposition to vaccinations. He seems to have believed that vaccination caused animal blood cells to be injected into humans. This he regarded as equivalent to eating blood, an activity that is forbidden in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). The group banned their members from having vaccinations from 1931 to 1952. An unknown number of Witnesses were disfellowshipped because they disobeyed their leaders on this matter) and conspiracy theorists (whose views on immunization are that there are metals in them and they cause autism--which has been debunked time and time again).

Now THOSE groups might avoid vaccinations, but you'd rather think it was hippies and illegals, obviously. By the way, in CA at least, immunizations are provided by clinics to illegal aliens' children, and believe me, they want them.

So your hatreds are specific and any excuse to blame them is convenient, nothing more. You most definitely do not hate everyone and everything; you reserve your outbursts for very specific groups of people, despite the fact that those groups are individuals with different beliefs and despite the fact that, as in this case, you just wail out and blame those you hate who have nothing to do with the issue in reality.

Don’t blame the internet, either; the internet, for you, is a way of both lashing out irresponsibly and getting attention, nothing more. Well, maybe additionally being able to be as you are on the internet with impunity because of the fuckwad theory...would be interesting to see how you are in IRL. My bet would be that you’re more afraid of alienating people than you are here and understand that behaving as you do here has consequences in the real world.

I understand the difference between government or anyone else forcing people to immunize and feeling anger that some stupid/biased people DON'T. There is nothing wrong with expressing our anger at something over which we have no power. In that I understand and concur. In that you AIM your anger at people here and at vague groups of people about whom you know nothing makes you an idiot and an ass.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

conspiracy theorists (whose views on immunization are that there are metals in them and they cause autism--which has been debunked time and time again).


Half right. A number of vaccines certainly include aluminum salts as an adjuvant... The aluminum salts are generally regarded as safe, but of course there are always questions and concerns.

In the past, some viral vaccines have included a trace amount of mercury solution (thimerosol) as a preservative, to prevent contamination of or spoiling of the vaccine with fungus or bacteria. This is where most of the autism causing fears comes from.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I liked the part where Wulfie went on his little rant about the "hippies and their illegitimate children", as if that were solely the province of "the hippies".

Guess ol' Bristol Palin is a hippie lib, eh, Wulfie? How'd her momma fail so badly if her own daughter is a hippie liberal with a bastard baby? On wonders if that kid's even had its vaccinations...


Wulfie... You were illegitimate, weren't you? Was your mom a hippie? Was your dad not around? I've never heard you mention him; did you come from a broken home? Is that why you blame the world for your failure?


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:01 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:


Hmm, I see Malachite posted something that's possibly a good point about what people can afford, I'm going to read that now.

EDIT: @ Malachite. The question I have, of course, is how much a vaccine reduces those impacts, and a suspicion that vaccines sometimes MAKE people sick.

Also, more crazy conspiracy theorist minded, wondering why vaccination programs tend to be targeted towards the poor.



Yes, of course, resistant strains can be found in hospitals (perhaps this is because the sickest people with the most resistant strains go there in the first place, so yes they will be there. But, I'm not going to argue that transmission of these strains couldn't also be because of poor sterilization techniques and inappropriate handwashing leading to the transfer of disease from patient to patient by health care workers).

As far as whether vaccinations are helpful, I think the fact that we have nearly eradicated certain diseases (smallpox, polio, etc) is a testament to this but this is just off the top of my head(I'll let someone else google "do vaccines reduce disease"). I think I have even heard there is an upsurge in certain diseases that were once nearly eradicated because people stopped getting vaccinated, but I don't have a source for that.

As far as whether vaccines make people sick. The answer is that sometimes for some individuals they do. Sometimes people are allergic to the medium the vaccine is placed in. Sometimes,the vaccine itself makes a person sick. When making a vaccine, they have to find an acceptable balance between finding something that will activate a person's immune response enough to trigger antibody formation and future immunity without making them acquire the illness itself. There are certainly risks to taking a vaccine, but for the majority of people the benefits of taking the vaccine outweigh the risks.

Your other question about vaccines targeting the poor. Well, as far as I know, pediatric guidelines recommend vaccinating everyone who consents and their isn't a glaring contraindication for, regardless of socioeconomic status. Why the seeming emphasis on vaccinating the poor? Probably because the rich already got theirs because they have good access to healthcare. The poor don't, so it requires more effort to get the word out and get them into clinics for starters. If the poor are minorities, they may be suspicious of the majority, so may require extra education/effort to get vaccinated.

That's a start, anyway.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


ANNNND..... boom.

Here we have Kwick taking it to a far more personal level than (even) I have ever done.

Good job.

For all your talk, when the "masks" come off... you are a far worse person than I.

Amazing isn't it?

I speak in generalities. I argue for the simple freedoms that we should all have. I argue against stupidity and for true equality.

You?

You try and take it personal, to somehow demean a point you can't stand.

Do I place at the dirty feet of hippies much of the things that have gone wrong over the past 30-40 years? Oh you better believe it.

Do I argue that they *could have* done the right things and reversed much of what was wrong in the 50s. I do that too.

But no. You want to make it personal, because you cannot fathom that the Spoiled Generation (tm) did anything but good.

When in point of fact they really didn't.

They were a bunch of spoiled brats, who hated Daddy, and have now "gown up" to be the soccer Moms, burn-outs of today.

A whole COUPLE of generations have had to raise themselves, on their own, because of that useless group.

And now? They are the ones whinging for Big Daddy government to take over their lives because THEY are such failures.


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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh, I didn't mean to ask whether vaccines reduce disease. I was asking if vaccines really do reduce the impacts of people getting sick, you know, the economics of it you mentioned. Probably, but I don't know for sure.

Quote:

Your other question about vaccines targeting the poor. Well, as far as I know, pediatric guidelines recommend vaccinating everyone who consents and their isn't a glaring contraindication for, regardless of socioeconomic status. Why the seeming emphasis on vaccinating the poor? Probably because the rich already go theirs because they have good access to healthcare. The poor don't, so it requires more effort to get the word out and get them into clinics for starters. If the poor are minorities, they may be suspicious of the majority, so may require extra education/effort to get vaccinated.


That's the surface explanation. But there might be deeper ones that are less benevolent.

(I'm a conspiracy theorist myself, in case you couldn't tell, though I try to be reasonable about it. I might see sinister things in some places you might find ridiculous. :) )

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:12 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oh, I didn't mean to ask whether vaccines reduce disease. I was asking if vaccines really do reduce the impacts of people getting sick, you know, the economics of it you mentioned. Probably, but I don't know for sure.

Quote:

Your other question about vaccines targeting the poor. Well, as far as I know, pediatric guidelines recommend vaccinating everyone who consents and their isn't a glaring contraindication for, regardless of socioeconomic status. Why the seeming emphasis on vaccinating the poor? Probably because the rich already go theirs because they have good access to healthcare. The poor don't, so it requires more effort to get the word out and get them into clinics for starters. If the poor are minorities, they may be suspicious of the majority, so may require extra education/effort to get vaccinated.


That's the surface explanation. But there might be deeper ones that are less benevolent.

(I'm a conspiracy theorist myself, in case you couldn't tell, though I try to be reasonable about it. I might see sinister things in some places you might find ridiculous. :) )



Well, if that were the case, why are so many of the rich majority still pushed to get vaccines as soon as their baby comes out of the womb? What's the conspiracy? If there is one, I don't think it is solely against the poor...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:19 AM

WHOZIT


Add Don Imus to the list, he's been bitching about "Thimerosal" for years, making alot of people afraid to get there kids shots.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
ANNNND..... boom.

Here we have Kwick taking it to a far more personal level than (even) I have ever done.

Good job.

For all your talk, when the "masks" come off... you are a far worse person than I.

Amazing isn't it?

I speak in generalities. I argue for the simple freedoms that we should all have. I argue against stupidity and for true equality.

You?

You try and take it personal, to somehow demean a point you can't stand.



You mean like when I rant about hating hippies and illegals, and then go on to claim that all illegals aren't hispanic, but they ARE all Mexicans? When I "demean" a point with that kind of generality? Is that what you mean?

You argue for "simple freedoms", but you have no fucking concept of what those freedoms should be, or entail. You argue for "liberty", but know nothing of it, because you'd kill all those who disagree, thus robbing them of THEIR liberty to not believe what you believe.

Quote:


Do I place at the dirty feet of hippies much of the things that have gone wrong over the past 30-40 years? Oh you better believe it.



Gosh, Wulfie, what big generalities you have...

Quote:


Do I argue that they *could have* done the right things and reversed much of what was wrong in the 50s. I do that too.



While utterly refusing to take YOUR part of the blame.

Quote:


But no. You want to make it personal, because you cannot fathom that the Spoiled Generation (tm) did anything but good.



When you blather on about "dirty hippies", "lefty libs", "lib-progs", "boomers", etc., you ARE making it personal. You're insulting ME, personally. You're trying to do it in a chickenshit, cowardly, passive-aggressive manner, but you're directing your insults at ME, and at Niki as well. You can't get much more personal than that. You're too much a coward to even face that fact, though. I have the balls to call you out personally, instead of hiding behind your gross generalizations. If I have a problem with Al Sharpton, I'll call out Al Sharpton on it, where YOU will just chalk it up to "all black people", and then run and hide from the flak.

Quote:


They were a bunch of spoiled brats, who hated Daddy, and have now "gown up" to be the soccer Moms, burn-outs of today.



While you have yet to "grow up" at all. You're still that scared, lonely little kid, mad at the whole world for what Mommy did to you.

Quote:


A whole COUPLE of generations have had to raise themselves, on their own, because of that useless group.



And some of us even pulled it off. I raised myself. I've been out on my own since I was 16.
Sounds like you're just mad because some "mannned up" and made it out, and you didn't. You hate weakness, but you ARE weak. Why do you despise yourself so much? That's what I'm trying to get to the heart of? Sorry if it hurts you to hear the questions, but if you don't start looking for the answers, you're going to tear yourself apart. I've seen it too many times.

Quote:


And now? They are the ones whinging for Big Daddy government to take over their lives because THEY are such failures.



Hey, *I* never argued for vaccination. That was YOU.


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I ain't discussin it in this, this.. shit throwin contest of a thread, but yeah, there's real concerns over adjuvants, preservatives - some vaccinations actually causing the very thing they're supposed to protect against (FluMist, some very recent stuff in Africa), being sabotaged deliberately as a eugenics device (again, Africa), contaminated with other pathogens (SV40/Polio) or far more deadly than whatever they were supposed to protect against (1976 Swine Flu/Tamiflu/Gardasil), and so on and so forth, but that for it's own thread, cause this one makes me wanna drag Wulfie out behind the woodshed and kick some sense into his little pin head, honestly.

-F

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Fuck you Jenny McCarthy.

Fuck you Mexicans.

Fuck you hippie lib bastards.



Yeah, Wulfie - you NEVER get personal. At least as long as no one here is Jenny McCarthy, Mexican, or a hippie, a liberal, or a "bastard", huh?

All you've ever had is personal insults. It's what you do.


"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."


On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:28 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oh, I didn't mean to ask whether vaccines reduce disease. I was asking if vaccines really do reduce the impacts of people getting sick, you know, the economics of it you mentioned. Probably, but I don't know for sure.



So, just using reasoning, let's start with the assumption that a vaccinated population gets sick less from a specific disease vs a non vaccinated population. If that is true, that means the vaccinated people will miss less work due to that illness (so they will earn more and their company will produce more, and they will all pay more taxes, conceivably). That also means they won't have to go to the doctor (so less strain on the healthcare system) and won't have to go to the hospital if they have some severe complication (and once someone goes to the ER or has to stay overnight in the hospital, healthcare costs start to skyrocket. And if they are covered by medicare/medicaid, that means the state/federal government are paying for it with our tax dollars or, sadly, by borrowing more from future generations. If they have insurance, well, that means the individual will pay some, the insurance company will pay some, and possibly the insurance company will raise everyones' insurance premiums to cover the ever increasing costs).

Here are some links about the economic impact of vaccination. The first is about a pneumonia vaccine and the other is about an influenza vaccine. Both make the case that it is more cost effective to give the vaccine than not to. They are a start anyway.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20092638

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16983973


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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Mmmm... It's going to be hard to establish a health link from a government org as "neutral" with me. Just FYI.

But, if your assumption is correct, then I would agree with you. Unless there were any sort of long term effects to be worried about, from vaccines.


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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Getting back to the original point of the thread....

Vaccinate your children, morons!

Just because your precious snowflake is an idiot, does NOT mean that its "scientists" fault.

I swear, the anti-vaccine people are all Juggalos in disguise.

"How do magnets work?" OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:01 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mmmm... It's going to be hard to establish a health link from a government org as "neutral" with me. Just FYI.

But, if your assumption is correct, then I would agree with you. Unless there were any sort of long term effects to be worried about, from vaccines.




For starters, I would evaluate the studies on their own merits (who actually did the studies, who paid for the studies, etc). This website collects the studies in one place, it isn't necessarily 100% US government funded and "approved" studies. Pubmed is actually a very well respected site for looking up what medical research is out there. One of the links is to an Italian study, for example. Yes, there is always the potential for bias. A lot (if not the majority) of studies are done with some form of government funding (grants). The other people who are going to pay for studies are the pharmaceutical companies, so their results will need to be taken with a grain of salt, too. Let's see, academic institutions also fund some of their own studies as well. Even if some "independent" group decided to fund a study, you would still need to be a bit skeptical because you would wonder if they have some hidden agenda. As always, though, one study does not make an irrefutable case. It is very helpful if the results of a study are independently replicated and verified by another source. And if you can get multiple independent sources coming up with the same results, that is the best.

The cochrane library is another well respected research collection site. Here is a link to some possible studies: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/mainSearch?products=all&Qu
ery5=&Query4=&FromYear=&Query3=&Query2=&Query1=economic+impact+of+vaccination&ToYear=&mode=startsearch&zones5=tables&zones4=abstract&zones3=author&zones2=article-title&zones1=%28article-title%2Cabstract%2Ckeywords%29&opt4=AND&opt3=AND&opt2=AND&unitstatus=none&opt1=OR
& The problem is, you have to login to actually see the abstracts. So, if you are truly interested, see what people say about pubmed and the cochrane library (are they biased?). You will still have to use critical reasoning when evaluating the studies, though.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I speak in generalities
Bull-fucking-shit! You get VERY personal, and your generalities are part of the problem; you BLAME in generalities (except of course for Obama), without knowing what you’re talking about, make claims that have no factual basis, and point at groups of people as if they are all identical, meanwhile making it personal, as Mike said, by knowing who on here is part of one of those groups. THEN you get even more personal, and abusive to boot!

We’ve done the hippie thing; I recognize your blindness and prejudicial hate on that issue, it’s not worth the time to bother trying to communicate how wrong you are further. But I hate to tell you, nonetheless, that my generation usually turned out to be CEOs and regular workers just like previous generations. Not that you cn even conceive of that. The ACTUAL hippie generation, mine, are in our 60s, I don’t think you hear us whining too much. By the way, I got out at 17 and made my own way, so I guess neither of us fits your sterotype...it’s the younger generations who are still living at home, y’know?

I just noticed something. NOWERE in that article does it say lack of vaccination is what is causing the epidemic. It DOES say “Health officials say whooping cough is cyclical and tends to peak every two to five years”, and "
Neither vaccine nor surviving the illness provides lifetime immunity", but no mention of lack of vaccination being the cause of this rise. So this whole thing has been in your mind from the very start, it would seem, and just a way to spew more anger. What a laugh.

Nonetheless, IN SPITE OF YOU (and Mike and me), I’m glad to see it sparked an interesting discussion on vaccinations. That’s about all you’re good for; starting something then veering off into attacks. I didn’t join the vaccination discussion because I know little or nothing about it, but I’m tickled to see others ignoring our little school-yard fight and continuing the discussion. But that it could all be that way, I’d ignore you too and join the discussion.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Vaccinate your children, morons!


Wulfie, you really, really, need to be shutting the fuck up now.

Let me break this down into really fucking simple terms so it gets through your thick head.

I knew Gardasil was exceptionally dangerous, I said as much, pointed out the bad science and the danger signs, from the very fucking beginning, and pointed out suspicious conduct on behalf of those marketing, only to be mocked and shouted down by pissants like you.

And then kids started dropping DEAD, or worse, contracting Guillain–Barre syndrome and then slowly dying by inches in some seriously horrific ways.

One of em was one of my nieces, you prick - their mother didn't take me seriously cause all the media and useful idiots like you cheerleading the corporate party line without a single fucking thought to the carnage that was fast becoming undeniable as the VAERS database became a catalog of horrors and the truth of how they fudged the science and outright lied about it's effectiveness started coming out.

By then it was too late - can you, just for a second, IMAGINE my horror as the girl got sick, and sicker, and sicker, and that pleading look, wishing she'd listened, wishing she could take it all back, and there's nothing I can say to it as she slowly slips away, and that branch of the family glares at ME, as if it's my goddamn fault personally, cause they can't bear to admit any part of their own in this tragedy.

The other niece, the one who's stuck in that same horrible school I used to go to, she was scheduled to get it too - and she RAN AND HID, and then had something closely approximating a nervous breakdown cause it started to dawn on her that maybe her "crazy" uncle was right, and if he was right about that, then... (cue total mental breakdown) and that meant that everyone she ever thought really cared about her... WAS LYING TO HER, about almost everything.

So maybe, Wulf, you oughta take a minute and really think about the fullisade of shit that's flowing from your pie-hole, and how your ignorant enabling of abuses affects others in real and personal ways, before you continue to spew.

Her *name* was Shannon - by the way, as if you'd fucking care, but I want you to know that, I want it to echo in your head and remind you that real people pay the price when ignorant asshats like you drown out the voices of reason, you punk.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:37 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:


I just noticed something. NOWERE in that article does it say lack of vaccination is what is causing the epidemic. It DOES say “Health officials say whooping cough is cyclical and tends to peak every two to five years”, and "
Neither vaccine nor surviving the illness provides lifetime immunity", but no mention of lack of vaccination being the cause of this rise.



Hey Niki,
Here is a link that sort of addresses that question. http://www.pkids.org/im_vs_notvac.php It is a layperson's link, so it doesn't have any cites (like links to what studies it is referring to), unfortunately, so take it for what it is worth and you may have to do extra digging to find those studies. I think that if one can agree that vaccinations do help prevent disease, it is reasonable to assume that if we stopped vaccinating, we can expect a resurgence in whatever we've been vaccinating against, though.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:42 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The key word here is "overuse" and there's one part being overlooked, the part you edited out: that there are places bacteria congregate, such as in hospitals, that are not sterilized well enough and so create breeding grounds for resistant strains.


Resistant strains come about because people don't take their full course, so some slightly more resistant organisms survive. Not enough to reinfect the person carrying it (because of their immune system is now wise to the organism) but enough to infect other people with a slightly more resistant strain, and so on. Not enough hygine in hospitals has it's own problems of course, but then so does too much in wider life...
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
EDIT: @ Malachite. The question I have, of course, is how much a vaccine reduces those impacts, and a suspicion that vaccines sometimes MAKE people sick.


Of course it does! That's the point of a vaccine! It exposes your immune system to the disease in a controlled way so that if you're exposed to it later, your immune system will be prepared.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah, you see my concerns. :) Thanks.

Yeah, I haven't known of any good "just databases" with medical studies and abstracts that don't have a selection bias. I'll definitely be checking pubmed out.

And if the government site has a range of sources, I'll check them out too, though I do still expect them to have some selection bias.

I'm actually pretty out of my element here with vaccines, as you can see. But if you've read Frem's above post, he has some very excellent and informative links involving medical studies and litigation when vaccines go wrong. If I remembered what the links were, I might have tried to bring them to play in this conversation.

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