REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Arizona Law Challenged

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 01:33
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1410
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Friday, June 18, 2010 10:59 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/18/us.arizona.immigration.law/index.html
?hpt=T1


Hello,

A new precedent on State rights versus Federal power is on the horizon. While I'm glad to see the law challenged, I'm not happy at the avenue of attack. They're making it about usurping Federal authority, and not about protecting the citizenry.

Which means it's just two bad dogs deciding who is alpha. Is this what it might look like when a victory isn't a victory?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 11:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 11:25 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"While I'm glad to see the law challenged, I'm not happy at the avenue of attack. They're making it about usurping Federal authority, and not about protecting the citizenry."

And you are surprised?

At this point, the Federal government needs to be disolved. Period.

The purpose of the Fed gov was to be a loose alighnment of the states. A way of rallying all of us when things got bad.

Now? They want to be kings.

Ooops. They've stepped and squatted over the people long enough.

Btw, its called the "Battle Hymn of the REPUBLIC" for a reason.

But sure... ignore me. Say I'm a "teabagger". Refuse to see the clouds of revolution and war gathering on the horizon.

In the first Civil War, the elitists gathered on the hillside above the first battle.

They soon realized the mistake of their picnic site.




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Friday, June 18, 2010 11:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This is nice. Two days away from the internet seems to have clicked in a new mentality. I only read about the first sentence of Wulfwind or Crappy before I skip past looking for things that are really worth reading. That'll save me SO much time!

Anthony, like all lawyers, they'll find whatever law they can to achieve their ends. In this case, I don't care WHAT they find, as long as the result works.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 12:21 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Nope... not going to sink to their level this time. Shocking, I know.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 12:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Which means it's just two bad dogs deciding who is alpha. Is this what it might look like when a victory isn't a victory?


Somethin like that, kind of how Lincoln used other excuses to eviscerate the whole idea of consent of the governed.

Best bet is to mire em down and get them to grind each other up, then finish off the "winner" - but of course, that'd presume a closer match, the Feds will have their way in the end, by virtue of nearly limitless resources, and if needs be will bankrupt Arizona and then take charge using financial/economic excuses, since they own the presses to print the money, rememeber, and thus have a limitless supply via stealing the value of ours.

Ergo, the bloody fools hoping and begging for a chance to shoot at Gov't jackboots are outta luck regardless, not that they'd last five minutes anyways since JUST LIKE the folks behind the Feds, they're oh so willing to send you out to die, but not so very willing to risk their own necks.

Not that any of it means anything, since racist dickheads are gonna be racist dickheads no matter what the letter of the law says, and the idea that a law of any kind can change that is somewhat ridiculous - thus, it's all a waste of time and penis waving anyways.

-Frem

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Friday, June 18, 2010 12:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Anthony, like all lawyers, they'll find whatever law they can to achieve their ends. In this case, I don't care WHAT they find, as long as the result works."

Hello Niki,

If a Black Man robs me, I want him going to jail because he robbed me, not because he's a Black Man. Sometimes, the ends don't justify the means, and so the process that reverses this bad law is important to me. The same arguments that get this law overturned may set a precedent that diminishes State power in a way that will cause me pain down the line.

"Not that any of it means anything, since racist dickheads are gonna be racist dickheads no matter what the letter of the law says, and the idea that a law of any kind can change that is somewhat ridiculous"

Frem,

A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:10 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.



Right! How about the LAW 460,000 illegals are breaking in AZ right now?


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Right! How about the LAW 460,000 illegals are breaking in AZ right now?"

Hello,

How about it? People have equated the Arizona law with illegal immigrants, but to me it's not a law about illegal immigrants. It's a law about citizens. And it will continue to be a law about citizens for as long as citizens are required to have proof of citizenship on their person at all times, just in case.

This is the part of the law that has always irked me. The part that has the potential to impinge on the rights of citizens. Citizens like me and my family. Citizens who look different or talk different, and can be disproportionately targeted.

If you want to eliminate illegals, don't do it by making a law about citizens.

I was watching the Hunt for Red October the other day. There's a part where the Captain of the Red October is talking to his XO, and they are dreaming of their lives after they defect to the U.S. and become citizens. The XO says, "I want to go all over America. Is it true, you can go anywhere you want, no papers?"

The Captain nods, "No papers."

A remake would now need to add, "Well, not unless you go to Arizona. Then you better have your citizenship papers, just in case."

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.



Right! How about the LAW 460,000 illegals are breaking in AZ right now?





I've never understood this line of reasoning. "They're breaking the law, so we can disregard any pretense of the rule of law as well!"

By this reasoning, you also get to torture people if you feel like it, because others do so.

I thought at some point America was supposed to stand for some ideal of a better way, a respect for all. Until we don't feel like it, I guess...

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:41 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Growl,

This is properly a matter of federal authority, not morality. "Protecting the citizenry" is all well and good, but more a moral sentiment than legal argument.

We all know that Federal law trumps conflicting state law. Moreover, it is reasonably clear that the Federal government has achieved "field pre-emption" in the matter of immigration. Meaning, the Feds have occupied the field, did not intend to for state law to supplement with their own asinine immigration laws, etc...

This is a forecful, legally significant challenge to the Arizona law, that even conservative folk must credit. Hence, its the best argument against the law, and why it will be struck down--not because it offends the sensibilities of the cuddly and doe-eyed.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:49 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
At this point, the Federal government needs to be disolved. Period.

The purpose of the Fed gov was to be a loose alighnment of the states. A way of rallying all of us when things got bad.

Now? They want to be kings.

Ooops. They've stepped and squatted over the people long enough.

Btw, its called the "Battle Hymn of the REPUBLIC" for a reason.

But sure... ignore me. Say I'm a "teabagger". Refuse to see the clouds of revolution and war gathering on the horizon.



No need to call you a teabagger--you're more properly labeled an anachronism and anti-Federalist.

You must really loathe Federalism, right? You're arguing a point that was decided, quite firmly, hundreds of years ago. The window for winning that argument has long since shut. Adapat to Federalism and the glorious vision of Hamilton!

EDIT: The system you advocate is as impotent as the UN, and we already tried it out with the Articles of Confederation--which failed and sucked and so forth. The US needs a strong, brutal, handsome federal government...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"The US needs a strong, brutal, handsome federal government..."

Hello,

I could do without 'brutal' and quite a bit more thought for the cuddly and doe-eyed. *preens*

Seriously, though, I'd have actually preferred this law to be struck down after evidence of racial profiling surfaced, because that is the concern I have. I honestly do not care if Arizona wants to make supplemental laws about illegal immigrants, just so long as those laws don't violate people's rights, or encourage people to do so.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:30 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Anthony,

Disagreeable as I am, I agree with you. My goal is to see the law struck down and buried as quickly as possible. Federalism is the means to to this end. Its a strong argument, and to oppose it is to argue in favor of something decidely un-American.

Racial profiling/privacy arguments are far more complicated and controversial. What legal theory would you advance? A denial of equal protection rights, under the 14th? You'd have to show discriminatory intent (very hard to do in this case I'd suspect) and effect...and the alienage issue...yuck

I do care about Federalism and so forth...if Arizona wants to make supplemental immigration laws, well, there's really not much to supplement, is there? As a general rule, its best that the 50 states have a unified immigration policy, don't you think?

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:41 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"As a general rule, its best that the 50 states have a unified immigration policy, don't you think?"

Hello,

As a general rule, I agree with you, too. I peel off on some specifics, though. I was (and continue to be) in favor of the state cracking down on employers who hire illegals, because it seems to me that's the way to solve 70% of the problem. I also had no problem with the police department checking the immigration status of people who were actually arrested for a crime. These things seemed perfectly reasonable. I felt the recent law just took things a step too far.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:43 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony: What you said. Precisely.
Quote:

How about it? People have equated the Arizona law with illegal immigrants, but to me it's not a law about illegal immigrants. It's a law about citizens. And it will continue to be a law about citizens for as long as citizens are required to have proof of citizenship on their person at all times, just in case.

This is the part of the law that has always irked me. The part that has the potential to impinge on the rights of citizens. Citizens like me and my family. Citizens who look different or talk different, and can be disproportionately targeted.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:17 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.



Right! How about the LAW 460,000 illegals are breaking in AZ right now?





I've never understood this line of reasoning. "They're breaking the law, so we can disregard any pretense of the rule of law as well!"

By this reasoning, you also get to torture people if you feel like it, because others do so.

I thought at some point America was supposed to stand for some ideal of a better way, a respect for all. Until we don't feel like it, I guess...



The law being observed is the same law that applies equally to all nationalities from all countries - that's torture? Please, just a little more hyperbole.

Over 500,000+ people, human beings of all colors and from all countries and all religious backgrounds become LEGAL citizens of the US every year. Every year. They start their relationship with their new country with respect and respect - the blind kind that govs only can show - is generally returned. At least as much respect as the rest of us US Citizen sorry asses are given.

So yeah, when you say, "I've never understood this line of reasoning. "They're breaking the law, so we can disregard any pretense of the rule of law as well!" I agree, I don't understand that line of reasoning either.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Arizona is right.

The Feds are undeniably wrong here.



No inconvenience, what so ever. As I said, I got no use for..... private messaging some.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Arizona border fence challenged by 50-million illegal aliens

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:30 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
How about it? People have equated the Arizona law with illegal immigrants, but to me it's not a law about illegal immigrants. It's a law about citizens. And it will continue to be a law about citizens for as long as citizens are required to have proof of citizenship on their person at all times, just in case.



"To me..." well, it's not about you is it? It's about an overwhelmed state, with no Federal assistance - wait, I mean 1200 National Guard! - trying to do whatever they can to stop illegal immigration. Face it Anthony, you are way to close to be objective.

You use the word "citizen" with great import - ironically it means nothing to people who would steal it.


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:32 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I sure wish you'd stop changing titles, PN. You don't "own" other people's threads, much as you'd like to, and it's wrong to change things into "PN Speak" just 'cuz you want to be heard.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Was it Piratenews? Well, I should have known.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:49 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, thank you Anthony. I posted that just so I could go in and put the title back, then forgot to! Duhhhh...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 4:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Frem,

A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.


Haven't been to Gary, Indiana lately, I take it...

The problem is when the law is not equally applied, when some are immune and some are punished more harshly, or it's administration is so slapdash-sledgehammer that it instead becomes a lottery, a gambling game, and for those not subject to it, the ultimate in win-win scams, which causes those who are to consider the law itself, and the social order that created it, unworthy of respect or acknowledgement - we're seein that here in Detroit, but we're ALSO seeing that even in a dearth of official law, even in some cases contrary to it, people choose to be humane and decent, more often than the reverse.

Without the law, you must appeal to people themselves, and as I have firmly maintained, we're not the evil beasts restrained only by words on paper that we're taught humans are - we're human, humane, most of us, and conversely, without the protection and sanction OF those laws, once respect has fallen away from them, the predators hiding behind them have no power over us.

Not to say they don't have their place, but either viewpoint comes out the same, ALL or NONE, anything else is a tyranny.

-Frem

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Friday, June 18, 2010 4:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


A law is an announcement about the official stance of things, and the official tolerance of situations. It gives people some kind of recourse to some kind of authority. Without the law, who do you appeal to? Fight guerilla tactics the rest of your life in an unbalanced war? With a law, you can pursue justice within a system. Laws may not matter as much as I'd like, but they do matter enough to make some kind of difference. I haven't seen a colored water fountain in a long while.



Right! How about the LAW 460,000 illegals are breaking in AZ right now?





I've never understood this line of reasoning. "They're breaking the law, so we can disregard any pretense of the rule of law as well!"

By this reasoning, you also get to torture people if you feel like it, because others do so.

I thought at some point America was supposed to stand for some ideal of a better way, a respect for all. Until we don't feel like it, I guess...



The law being observed is the same law that applies equally to all nationalities from all countries - that's torture? Please, just a little more hyperbole.

Over 500,000+ people, human beings of all colors and from all countries and all religious backgrounds become LEGAL citizens of the US every year. Every year. They start their relationship with their new country with respect and respect - the blind kind that govs only can show - is generally returned. At least as much respect as the rest of us US Citizen sorry asses are given.

So yeah, when you say, "I've never understood this line of reasoning. "They're breaking the law, so we can disregard any pretense of the rule of law as well!" I agree, I don't understand that line of reasoning either.




You are claiming that because "they" are breaking the law, that we can simply enact illegal, immoral, unconstitutional "laws" to deal with them. You'd just as quickly break the law as "they" would, it seems.

Your logic is the exact same logic used by Rappy and Hero, and Dubya, to justify torturing people we don't like very much, for no other reason but that we don't like them very much. Sorry you couldn't figure that out; I'd hoped you were smart enough to get it.

"Overwhelmed"? Talk about hyperbole! Violent crime is DOWN in Arizona. Phoenix is in the TOP FOUR cities in the nation for having the LOWEST violent crime rates. They certainly don't seem to be "overwhelmed", by any stretch of the imagination. Illegals taken into custody have fallen off dramatically since Bush crashed the economy, from over a hundred thousand a few years ago, to fewer than 10,000 last year. "Overwhelmed"? I think the only one overwhelmed here is you, by the crap you're buying into and repeating here as if it were true.

By the way, that "law being observed" is NOT the same law that applies to all nationalities and countries. You're wrong about that, and you should damned well know it. We cut special deals for certain groups, nationalities, and countries all the time. Cuba is the most prevalent. Vietnam got a sweetheart deal once we ruined their country and lost it to the communists for them. (By the way, more Americans were against allowing the Vietnamese into the U.S. than support this idiotic Arizona law!)

To say that the same law applies to everybody is disingenuous at best, and idiotic, misinformed, or outright lying at worst.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 5:53 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

"Overwhelmed"? Talk about hyperbole! Violent crime is DOWN in Arizona. Phoenix is in the TOP FOUR cities in the nation for having the LOWEST violent crime rates. They certainly don't seem to be "overwhelmed", by any stretch of the imagination. Illegals taken into custody have fallen off dramatically since Bush crashed the economy, from over a hundred thousand a few years ago, to fewer than 10,000 last year. "Overwhelmed"? I think the only one overwhelmed here is you, by the crap you're buying into and repeating here as if it were true.



Hah! Shit, "Illegals taken into custody have fallen off dramatically... only 10,000 last year." Do you read what you type?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, that "law being observed" is NOT the same law that applies to all nationalities and countries. You're wrong about that, and you should damned well know it. We cut special deals for certain groups, nationalities, and countries all the time. Cuba is the most prevalent. Vietnam got a sweetheart deal once we ruined their country and lost it to the communists for them.



Complete bullshit. When you go to get your citizenship there's no box for "sweetheart deal." Have you gone through the process? No? So who's talking out of their ass?
Hero and AU and others can't possibly be right about ANYTHING? Because they have such closed minds right? And isn't that statement just dripping with irony. ReTHINK, and do it without the emotion.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, June 18, 2010 6:21 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Prince William County in Virginia passed an illegal immigration law similar to Arizona's in 2007. Here's a study done by the University of Virginia on it's implementation.

http://www.virginia.edu/surveys/Projects/2009/PWC09_Immigration/Interi
m%20report%20summary.ppt


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, June 18, 2010 8:27 PM

ANTIMASON


i just want to voice my opinion: GO ARIZONA!! do your thing..

when America was established, the 13 colonies joined the union as SOVEREIGN entities. they have every right to defend their citizenry from an invasion of foreign wellfare/entitlement recipients.. since the federal government forced most of these entitlements on the states to begin with. this is entirely an economic problem, created by government. in a truly free society, this wouldnt matter! but since we live in a collectivist society, this becomes an issue. and the bottom line is, a legal citizen has no obligation to subsidize a foreign national, period.

unfettered immigration wasnt a problem before the wellfare state. now, IT IS A PROBLEM! you collectivists and progressives out there cannot have it both ways- if you want this pervasive entitlement safety net, you cant allow anyone for whatever reason, to just up and settle in the country, without requiring citizenship(and the burdensome taxation that comes with it). otherwise, we will be subsidizing the lives of any 3rd world person who can make it onto our property! its unsustainable!

i want a society that thrives on economice freedom and the liberty to travel and trade and settle wherever. but that doesnt exist today- we have a government that sticks its nose in EVERYTHING, and over-regulates and controls so much of the economy that the private sector is insufficient to meet its demands! and remember, the government is funded by the people- government gets its money from the private sector! thats why we have a deficit, because we cant support the government we've created!

Arizona is just the first one to stand up to the federal government. the liberal, collectivist run states like CA and NY are going bankrupt, and we have many states, particualarly in the south and midwest states reaffirming their 10th amendment rights

nothing is sustainable under this current system. return to freemarkets and limited government, and we solve the problem overnight. that, and repeal the drug laws- finally let people be responsible for themselves! its symbolic. so long as i dont harm another person, government cant and will never be able to protect me from myself- without stealing my liberties(and yours) in the process. give it up!

we have to change our view of government

until then, Arizona has to play politics. and personally, im hoping Colorado follows suit

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Friday, June 18, 2010 8:29 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Arizona border fence challenged by 100-million illegal aliens

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I sure wish you'd stop changing titles, PN. You don't "own" other people's threads, much as you'd like to, and it's wrong to change things into "PN Speak" just 'cuz you want to be heard.



Scum like you should go live in Communist Israel with the other white Nazis. They've got a mandatory draft in combat for all females, even lesbians. No Section 8 for you. If you've got any Semitic DNA, the Israeli govt will kill you.

Everyone who wants 100-million illegal aliens in USA should be stripped fo their citizenship and shot on their beloved antiborder. Or just put in a ditch and bulldozed alive, as USA did in Iraq for Israel and the British Empire.


Kosher Nazi Germany invented the Jew World Odor

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 2:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Prince William County in Virginia passed an illegal immigration law similar to Arizona's in 2007. Here's a study done by the University of Virginia on it's implementation.

http://www.virginia.edu/surveys/Projects/2009/PWC09_Immigration/Interi
m%20report%20summary.ppt


"Keep the Shiny side up"



Hello,

These phrases jumped up at me from the report:

"Policy was modified by BOCS in April 2008
Changed to cover only those physically arrested."

"Revised policy somewhat easier to implement than the original."

In fact, were the policy in Arizona changed in this way, I'd have little to say about it.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 2:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Complete bullshit. When you go to get your citizenship there's no box for "sweetheart deal." Have you gone through the process? No? So who's talking out of their ass?"

Hello,

You may possibly be unaware of our wet-foot, dry-foot policy regarding Cuban immigrants. It is easier for some groups to stay here than others. In essence, if you're a Cuban, and you reach land, you're probably going to be allowed to stay.

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 4:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

These phrases jumped up at me from the report:

"Policy was modified by BOCS in April 2008
Changed to cover only those physically arrested."

"Revised policy somewhat easier to implement than the original."

In fact, were the policy in Arizona changed in this way, I'd have little to say about it.

--Anthony



I expect that that's pretty much the way it'll be enforced. There just isn't the manpower available to do much more, even though checking shouldn't be hard. The Arizona law accepts pretty much any valid State or Federal ID as proof of legal residency, and any resident aliens (18 and over) are already required by federal law (see below) to carry proof of alien registration.

Quote:

8 USC 1304(e): Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties. Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. 8 USC 1306 (a): Willful failure to register. Any alien required to apply for registration and to be fingerprinted in the United States who willfully fails or refuses to make such application or to be fingerprinted, and any parent or legal guardian required to apply for the registration of any alien who willfully fails or refuses to file application for the registration of such alien shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall, upon conviction thereof, be fined not to exceed $1,000 or be imprisoned not more than six months, or both.)



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 4:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"
I expect that that's pretty much the way it'll be enforced. There just isn't the manpower available to do much more, even though checking shouldn't be hard. The Arizona law accepts pretty much any valid State or Federal ID as proof of legal residency, and any resident aliens (18 and over) are already required by federal law (see below) to carry proof of alien registration. "

Hello,

As currently written, the law gives them the ability to bother folks for proof of legal status without an arrest, and that's my concern. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's foolish to construct a law in such a way that it has ample room for abuse or even unintentional harm to the citizenry.

The consequence of the law as written is that all citizens (not just residents or legal alien immigrants) must have ID at all times sufficient to prove legal residency status, else they may be arrested at the discretion of a law enforcement officer.

It's an unnecessary step, and one open to abuse. Other provisions about not hiring illegal immigrants are much more logical. Provisions to check people after they are already being arrested for a crime are logical. (You have to identify them anyhow.)

This? Not so much. If they change the law, I'll quit griping about it.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

As currently written, the law gives them the ability to bother folks for proof of legal status without an arrest, and that's my concern. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's foolish to construct a law in such a way that it has ample room for abuse or even unintentional harm to the citizenry.



A bit tighter than that, actually. It was modified by HB 2162 to specify when ID could be checked.

"Requires state and local law enforcement to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful stop, detention or arrest in the enforcement of any other local or state law or ordinance where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present, except if it may hinder or obstruct an investigation."

http://www.ncsl.org/?tabid=20263
(this is a pretty good summary of the law, BTW)

Anyway, if they had bad intent, then the 'check only on arrest' change would be no protection. They could just arrest folk, check their ID and drop charges if they were legal. If you're gonna assume that the folks who wrote the law have evil motives, it doesn't really matter what the law states, as they'll figure a way around it.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 5:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


" If you're gonna assume that the folks who wrote the law have evil motives, it doesn't really matter what the law states, as they'll figure a way around it."

Hello,

I generally assume the people who implement a law may have evil motives. That's a very good standby position.

I also know from experience that the more difficult you make it for someone to do bad things, the less bad things they're liable to do.

Property fences can't stop anyone. But they do.

Door locks can't stop anyone. But they do.

You can't stop everyone from doing bad things, but you can stop the vast majority by putting obstacles and potential consequences front and center.

Arresting everyone to check for citizenship is more foolish, because it leaves a trail of documents. It's abusable, but also more actionable, and so less likely to be abused.

'Stopping' someone on any pretense is much more abusable, because the recordkeeping for 'stops' is much different than the recordkeeping for 'arrests.'

--Anthony





Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:34 AM

DREAMTROVE


Anthony

Thanks for this angle. I hadn't thought about it this way. It had occurred to me that this was a states rights issue, but jot as one where the govt could use the problem to overreach it's authority.

I oppose the law, but bad policy is often on the right side of freedom, because enemies of freedom like to oppose bad policy in order to restrict freedom, which is what I suspect the Phelps are doing on the news.

The law is whatever the guy with the gun says the law is, and the guy without he bigger gun is bound to have more say. Ultimately, it's inescapable that the law will serve the money power exclusively, and as a small plaintiff, you are the eunuch at the table begging for the sultan not to kill you now, but to castrate you now, and kill you after dinner. It's hard to see any good in such a system. If they ever agree with you, it's likely that you just haven't realized where you went wrong and the position your defending actually has some nefarious purpose you haven't seen yet. If your lucky, you can serve that nefarious purpose without losing your own goals, but it's not that likely, I suspect the law exclusively serves the powees that be, and holds nothing for the rest of us but oppression, and govt. The same.

To me, States rights are preferable over federalism mostly because it means less govt, but also because the states are govts that actually do something other than war. The federal govt seems to be utterly devoid of merit.

I'm tempted to agree with Wulf on this



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Monday, June 21, 2010 2:38 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Your taxdollars at work in Israel





"They just float out there, sending out raper breeding parties."
-Wash, Serenity DVD
youtube.com/watch?v=NpMkqWKK7qg

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Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:33 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i just want to voice my opinion: GO ARIZONA!! do your thing..

when America was established, the 13 colonies joined the union as SOVEREIGN entities. they have every right to defend their citizenry from an invasion of foreign wellfare/entitlement recipients.. since the federal government forced most of these entitlements on the states to begin with. this is entirely an economic problem, created by government. in a truly free society, this wouldnt matter! but since we live in a collectivist society, this becomes an issue. and the bottom line is, a legal citizen has no obligation to subsidize a foreign national, period.

unfettered immigration wasnt a problem before the wellfare state. now, IT IS A PROBLEM! you collectivists and progressives out there cannot have it both ways- if you want this pervasive entitlement safety net, you cant allow anyone for whatever reason, to just up and settle in the country, without requiring citizenship(and the burdensome taxation that comes with it). otherwise, we will be subsidizing the lives of any 3rd world person who can make it onto our property! its unsustainable!

i want a society that thrives on economice freedom and the liberty to travel and trade and settle wherever. but that doesnt exist today- we have a government that sticks its nose in EVERYTHING, and over-regulates and controls so much of the economy that the private sector is insufficient to meet its demands! and remember, the government is funded by the people- government gets its money from the private sector! thats why we have a deficit, because we cant support the government we've created!

Arizona is just the first one to stand up to the federal government. the liberal, collectivist run states like CA and NY are going bankrupt, and we have many states, particualarly in the south and midwest states reaffirming their 10th amendment rights

nothing is sustainable under this current system. return to freemarkets and limited government, and we solve the problem overnight. that, and repeal the drug laws- finally let people be responsible for themselves! its symbolic. so long as i dont harm another person, government cant and will never be able to protect me from myself- without stealing my liberties(and yours) in the process. give it up!

we have to change our view of government

until then, Arizona has to play politics. and personally, im hoping Colorado follows suit



I endorse this post......spot on.

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