REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It’s over: MPs say the special relationship with US is dead

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 6, 2010 06:23
SHORT URL:
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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:38 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


KPO

I'm still waiting for you to explain how all those deaths were not the fault of the US - either practically or as a matter of law.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KPO, I also cited Costa Rica, Brazil, Peru, Cuba etc. I was just trying to cite examples that dunderheads might be familiar with.

Some of our wars/ invasions/ incursions (three or four, possibly) had a positive outcomes for those involved. I would cite Europe (WWII, not WWI. The punitive measures we took after WWI merely set the stage for WWII), the former Yugoslavia (somewhat), and maybe Korea (although it's a little hard to tell what would have happened).

That's, what... 1%? Not exactly a ringing success, and evidence of our REAL motivations for virtually all of our military actions.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.





So don't bitch when the issue turns around to exert its influence on you

what goes around, comes around

you might have heard the cliche

birds coming home to roost and all that



You completely ignored what I posted. Figures.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.





So don't bitch when the issue turns around to exert its influence on you

what goes around, comes around

you might have heard the cliche

birds coming home to roost and all that



You completely ignored what I posted. Figures.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As I told Gino elsewhere, most people here agree with him about America. But violence is not the answer anywhere.

I agree with most everything said, except for the call to violence, but I also think a lot of good is ignored here out of, who knows, maybe guilt? America's done a lot of bad, but also a lot of good, and I agree that, if we were taken out of the equation, nobody can say how many would have died, been persecuted, raped, etc.

Not excusing America for its faults, just saying we're one nation out of many, and nobody's perfect. Thank you, KPO, for the perspective. Beyond that, I won't get into this; I know this is an anti-authoritarian-figure bunch--maybe it goes back to Firefly, I dunno. But I do know that there are many who disagree--and I don't mean just the "America, great nation" idjits who can see no wrong.

I'm a middle-of-the-roader on this one; I hate what we've done, but I don't see us as the Evil Empire. All empires are evil, we're just one of many and because of technology and it being a global village, our empire has had more reach. Another will no doubt come along, maybe in our lifetime, for people to hate equally.





And still you offer no realistic idea to stop your countrys ugly ways ?

you don't like violence, sure

do you want things to remain as there are then ?

offer an alternative

because the status quo doesn't work anymore, and if others are made to suffer for Americas interests... then why shouldn't America suffer equally


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you




We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.

Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.

We're one of the last true beacons of hope for the world. Even with our mistakes and screw ups. Far better us adding our influence than others. But you seem to think, naively as possible, that if we left well enough alone, then there'd be no troubles, anywhere, what so ever.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you




We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.

Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.

We're one of the last true beacons of hope for the world. Even with our mistakes and screw ups. Far better us adding our influence than others. But you seem to think, naively as possible, that if we left well enough alone, then there'd be no troubles, anywhere, what so ever.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."




That may be the way you see it

but those being influenced by you disagree rather strongly.. that makes you the bully

If someone else was the bully and asked you for help, that may change the dynamic of the situation... but that is not reality

and that is what you are missing

China, Iran, Cuba, etc have been on the side of the angels the last twenty year compared to the US forcing its opinions on damn near everyone else

Yankee go home, stay there unless invited back for a visit

Better for all concerned


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I wonder if anyones opinion would change, if they knew some of the folks who did die as "collateral damage", from american bombs.

I did, you see - each of those numbers, those were PEOPLE, folks with hopes and dreams, lives beyond the scope of those dry numbers, human beings who were as flawed and yet proud, as any one of us, wiped from existence in an instant, all that they were, all that they believed, all the good and ill they might have done, whatever future potential they had, and gone, just that quick.

One of those people, was a RAWA translator, one of the few who spoke pretty good english, and something of a friend, who did a beautiful pencil sketch for me when words failed her at how much she valued even *acknowledgement* of their plight by an american, a lady I knew little about, but honored for her devotion to a seemingly hopeless cause in the same general direction as mine.

And then.. gone.

Those are PEOPLE, curse your eyes, and I want you to acknowledge it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

We're not the bully.
Of course we are. Not the ONLY bully, but definitely the one who commits THE MOST resources to bullying! (More than all the other bullies combined, and that's saying something.)
Quote:

That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.
Yeah, maybe people could actually elect their own governments!
Quote:

Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.
Because OUR dictators are so much better?

To answer your question directly: a resounding YES

Castro and Chavez have done far more for their people than "our" dictators have.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:27 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I wonder if anyones opinion would change, if they knew some of the folks who did die as "collateral damage", from american bombs.

I did, you see - each of those numbers, those were PEOPLE, folks with hopes and dreams, lives beyond the scope of those dry numbers, human beings who were as flawed and yet proud, as any one of us, wiped from existence in an instant, all that they were, all that they believed, all the good and ill they might have done, whatever future potential they had, and gone, just that quick.

One of those people, was a RAWA translator, one of the few who spoke pretty good english, and something of a friend, who did a beautiful pencil sketch for me when words failed her at how much she valued even *acknowledgement* of their plight by an american, a lady I knew little about, but honored for her devotion to a seemingly hopeless cause in the same general direction as mine.

And then.. gone.

Those are PEOPLE, curse your eyes, and I want you to acknowledge it.

-Frem




me Frem ?

hell I totally agree on that point


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


RAPPY- Let me explain this in terms you might understand
Quote:

We're not the bully
Yeah???

If we're such "good guys", rescuing poor benighted countries from the tyranny of.. whatever... why does everyone hate us so much?

And I'm not talking about Russia and and China, with whom we might contend for spheres of influence. I'm talking about Joe and Jane Average, in East Timor, or (pick any nation south of the border), the Philippines, most of the Mideast, and a lot of Africa.

Why does YANKEE GO HOME! strike such a chord with average people, everywhere around the world?

Shit, man, if we were such good guys you'd think we've be welcomed with open arms, instead of feared and reviled.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Castro and Chavez have done far more for their people than "our" dictators have.




If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:42 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Castro and Chavez have done far more for their people than "our" dictators have.




If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."




Are you trying to claim the US hasn't been heavily involved in silencing, killing and oppressing " any opposition to its handpicked tyrants ?


BWHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa


Next thing you know you will be trying to sell me a ticket to the Gay Nazi Ball


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:46 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Fast Forward Twenty Years into the future...





No wait, the US doesn't have a space program anymore... shut down for bully money

maybe India will be welcomed lol




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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you




We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.



That doesn't make us "not the bully". Pointing out that if we didn't bully other people, someone else would, is not the same as your claiming that we're no bully.

Quote:


Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.



Would we get REAL healthcare reform then?

Quote:


We're one of the last true beacons of hope for the world. Even with our mistakes and screw ups. Far better us adding our influence than others. But you seem to think, naively as possible, that if we left well enough alone, then there'd be no troubles, anywhere, what so ever.



And you seem to think, naively as possible, that everything we do is for the best, that we're always for "freedom", despite mountains of evidence laid at your feet. The U.S. is ALWAYS out only for what's best for the U.S.; we don't give a fuck about the rest of the world, except as it impacts our business interests.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.
You poor, deluded, ignoramus. If you'd pull your head out of your ass once in a while you'd know that WE taught torture techniques to the worst dictators in the world, that WE set up Pinochet and Saddam (YEP) and the Shah of Iran and a host of other dictators who far exceeded... in terms of brutality and death.... anything that Castro or Chavez has ever done.

The people worked over with hand drills, high voltage, hungry rats, beatings, hot oil, child rape, suffocation, acids and caustics? All done by "our" dictators. That's on us.

WE set up Savak. "Chief CIA Iran analyst Jesse Leaf in an interview on 6th Jan. 1979 stated that the CIA teaches Nazi torture techniques to SAVAK". Torture methods: electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

The tens of thousand of desparacidos (disappeareds) in Argentina, Colombia, Honduras, etc"? That's on us.

The hundred thousand East Timorese gunned down, beaten, and tortured? On us.

Jeez, Rappy, why the FUCK do you think that people really, REALLY hate us? It's not because we're so nice!

Yanno, if you really think that we SHOULD be influencing the world, the least you can do is accept responsibility for the outcome, you moronic dickwad.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:20 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.
You poor, deluded, ignoramus. If you'd pull your head out of your ass once in a while you'd know that WE taught torture techniques to the worst dictators in the world, that WE set up Pinochet and Saddam (YEP) and the Shah of Iran and a host of other dictators who far exceeded... in terms of brutality and death.... anything that Castro or Chavez has ever done.

The people worked over with hand drills, high voltage, hungry rats, beatings, hot oil, child rape, suffocation, acids and caustics? All done by "our" dictators. That's on us.

WE set up Savak. "Chief CIA Iran analyst Jesse Leaf in an interview on 6th Jan. 1979 stated that the CIA teaches Nazi torture techniques to SAVAK". Torture methods: electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

The tens of thousand of desparacidos (disappeareds) in Argentina, Colombia, Honduras, etc"? That's on us.

The hundred thousand East Timorese gunned down, beaten, and tortured? On us.

Jeez, Rappy, why the FUCK do you think that people really, REALLY hate us? It's not because we're so nice!

Yanno, if you really think that we SHOULD be influencing the world, the least you can do is accept responsibility for the outcome, you moronic dickwad.



Don't say that to Niki, Signy... she will freak out lol


Thank You for saying it from me though

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You're welcome.

Sometimes the willful ignorance of sheeple like Rappy just makes me want to

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
me Frem ?

hell I totally agree on that point


All of us, Gino, all of us.

It's all too easy to get caught up in discussion of the larger scale and somehow forget that each and every one of those numbers was a human being.

But I want folk to know it, to acknowledge it, and realize, really realize, the true depths of horror within that knowledge.

-F

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
me Frem ?

hell I totally agree on that point


All of us, Gino, all of us.

It's all too easy to get caught up in discussion of the larger scale and somehow forget that each and every one of those numbers was a human being.

But I want folk to know it, to acknowledge it, and realize, really realize, the true depths of horror within that knowledge.

-F




Especially if they're going to keep trying to play the sympathy card with that "2974" line, as if 2974 Americans are automatically worth a thousand times more than anyone else.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:33 PM

GINOBIFFARONI





or you wind up with shit like this go unpunished

good point Frem

but this was on US TV

why wasn't this bitch lynched ?

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:49 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think you make interesting and valuable points.



uh oh watch yourself... you dont want to go against the grain around here

Quote:

Would Iran want nukes ( if they do, and I would ) if they were not being threatened daily, and already had a neighbor attacked on maybes and what ifs ?


Perhaps the best way to exert influence out into the world would be to simply say, hey we would love to trade with you... except for this little thing

free choice on everyones part

I like the idea...

I disagree that it was ever the policy of America, but that is a debate for another time...


How would you suggest the US move towards this idea ?



just as you said, just do business. president Coolidge once said "the chief business of the American people is business", something i believe at heart. we go around the world, fighting for liberty.. and we've nearly lost it here at home! our goal should be unrivaled economic and personal liberty at home. then, by influence and example we can export our ideas of liberty, at the grass roots, at the consumer level. the current Iranian revolution would be my example, but just look at Vietnam- all those years of fighting, and now we trade with them

of course the first step would have to be systematically withdrawing our military around the world. id work on withdrawing our memberships in the UN, NATO,(and trade entities like IMF WTO) and other global bodies. just make it clear to the world that we're no longer the worlds body guard. for all we do, and all our good intentions, we retain this status as oppressors and imperialists- we get little to no appreciation for it. so lets stop! allow for divine providence. let them fight their own battles, protect their own countries

then, just set up trade agreements, make it as accomodating as possible for commerce. scrap the current managed trade we have now and pursue some real honest 'free' trade. work at home to become the standard bearer of economic liberty, and then export it. as was the case with the Chinese, just the influence of capitalism alone has done more to improve the living standards of their people then any of the central economic planning the communists could devise.

thats my model.. oversimplified of course






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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
the influence of capitalism alone has done more to improve the living standards of their people then any of the central economic planning the communists could devise.


Wow. And only millions had to die for it.

You BETTER believe in reincarnation as I do, Anti.
Or else your math might just suck.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:59 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Don't say that to Niki, Signy... she will freak out lol
I've already said I agree with most of what people have written. Were it not for the
Quote:

You poor, deluded, ignoramus. If you'd pull your head out of your ass once in a while
and
Quote:

moronic dickwad
I'd probably agree with all of that quote. Nonetheless, I understand Sig's anger; that wind we have blowing through here is so busy unfurling the flag that it sometimes makes ME want to scream some obscenities.

Willful blindness isn't my problem, it's lack of perspective. I will continue to say that our "empire", like those before it, has backed evil people and done evil things. That doesn't make it any more evil than any other empire; we've just had an easy global reach. Any one of the previous empires would have done the same thing if they had, too.

Sorry I don't dwell in the black and white you want, but that doesn't mean I'm blind, either. My problem with you was your willingness to blame US, the people on this forum, advocate violent takeover and claimed I did and said things I didn't. Otherwise, we pretty much agree.

After which, by the way, you erased all your posts and disappeared. Always been curious why...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Nonetheless, I understand Sig's anger; that wind we have blowing through here is so busy unfurling the flag that it sometimes makes ME want to scream some obscenities.


Yeah, I used to say the only thing that could make me burn an American flag would be a law saying I couldn't do that. Now I think Rappy wrapping himself up in it every two minutes is just about enough...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nah, Mike, it's not worth the effort. Just the wind in the trees, muttering to itself...

If it were a person, it would pat itself on the back and think smugly what a great American it is...but it's not...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:12 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Wow. And only millions had to die for it.



the Great Leap Forward was a marxist/communist agenda wasnt it? i always attributed the millions of deaths to Maos social engineering


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Jeez, Rappy, why the FUCK do you think that people really, REALLY hate us? It's not because we're so nice!




Actually, it is because we're so nice. Tyrannical Gov'ts lie to their citizens about our way of life, and who we are, so that the locals won't get their own uppity ideas of 'freedom'. Keep the masses stupid, keep them busy and keep them under control. Worked for the Soviet Union for nearly 70 years.

" ... you're going to pass legislation that will cover 300 ( million ) American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people." - Rep. John Dingell ( D - MI )

Your fucking socialist utopia awaits!


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your fucking socialist utopia awaits!


Ya PROMISE????



The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I became so agitated talking to people who figured they had no personal responsibility for the actions of their country, I was going to write this board off and leave.

I thank Signy Again for making the same point

You seem to want the status quo, or have no idea how to effect any change at all... you seem just to not like the reality change may just be forced upon you

I disagree, the application of violence is the only means left, the only question is who does it and to what end

black and white, mass murder, letting war criminals go free... whatever

" our "empire", like those before it, has backed evil people and done evil things. That doesn't make it any more evil than any other empire; we've just had an easy global reach. Any one of the previous empires would have done the same thing if they had, too. "

but other people murder children too, why are you upset at me, would be an equivalent in my mind to what you said there... doesn't exactly sit right with me


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your fucking socialist utopia awaits!


Ya PROMISE????



The laughing Chrisisall










Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 4:47 PM

GINOBIFFARONI






Just Like




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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Actually, it is because we're so nice. Tyrannical Gov'ts lie to their citizens about our way of life, and who we are, so that the locals won't get their own uppity ideas of 'freedom'. Keep the masses stupid, keep them busy and keep them under control. Worked for the Soviet Union for nearly 70 years.
Oh yeah, everybody misunderstands us. Poor, lonesome us. We try so hard to be nice! (snicker) Again, if you would pull your head out of your ass once in a while... there are too many personal accounts of atrocities aided and abetted by US personnel, too much evidence IN OUR OWN RECORDS of the dictators we've propped up and the people we've killed to dismiss it as anti-American propaganda by "bad guys". (snicker) Jeez what a fucking moron.

YOU might be blinded by bullshit, Rappy, but the rest of the world is not.

But that's OK. Plug your ears and hum loudly. Close your eyes. Go live in your own delusional little Alliance world.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

YOU might be blinded by bullshit, Rappy, but the rest of the world is not.



And you think the E. Germans were shooting at folks trying to climb IN, not OUT, right ?

The level of voluntary ignorance on your part knows no bounds.


You ARE, the most useful idiot.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You forget that after the US defeated Iraq it was LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE to maintain peace and order in the country. Any deaths that occured are the US's fault, both in fact and by law.


Ok this. To some extent you have a point: as occupying power after the invasion the U.S is responsible for things the Iraqi state would ordinarily provide like water, sanitation, energy, etc. Also it is obligated as well to provide security - and as we saw the other things depended on this... and it failed.

The thing is the U.S has a startlingly good record of occupying countries and successfully promoting stability, freedom, democracy, prosperity. See Western European countries, S. Korea, Japan. The Neo-con mentality was to try (naively imo) and reproduce this in Iraq, and make a friendly oil-producing democracy.

The fact that Iraq descended into bloody chaos was because of forces the US struggled to control. I think you'll struggle to prove that the U.S failed its security mandate 'on purpose' - causing the chaos, and all those Iraqi civilians deaths as a matter of policy. You're lacking evidence, and motive.

Was the legal requirement for security to make more than a conscientious effort? If not how are you going to prove that it didn't make this effort?

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Gino, you missed this one:






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The level of voluntary ignorance on your part knows no bounds.
I happen to be married to someone who grew up in communist Hungary, and my dad was imprisoned in a Siberian labor camp so don't give me a load of crap, sonny. I have good knowledge of both sides of the equation.

YOU? I figure you for a tool.

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The thing is the U.S has a startlingly good record
You're shitting us, right? I just posted about 100 of our "interventions" which ended in abysmal failure, and you point to three of four exceptions and call it "startling good"?

Er... the only thing startling is your assessment!

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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:24 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Gino, you missed this one:






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions




Looks too happy and there is no noose around the neck...


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Wednesday, March 31, 2010 9:33 PM

ANTIMASON


personally, i think the US is/ and will be, the most benevolent empire the world will ever see. as much as i criticize America for its intervention, IMO human nature would have compelled any other "world-power" in the same way. the world is frankly lucky that it was us on top(although its not luck- its a consequence of good policy). we are truly blessed as Americans, to have recieved the knowledge and undestanding that underpinned US law, and enabled us access to such incredible wealth. just imagine if the world super-power had been the Nazis, Stalin or Mao!? we might not even be having this discussion

and yet, inspite of all that, we still strive to achieve a balance that does not neccessitate our constant intervention. that is why we are special.. and its the libertairan way, supported by the bill of rights/constitution. in those most simple terms, we are not permitted to do anything near the scale and reach that we have been; both foreign and domesticly. so in that respect, i think we should bid adieu, and leave popular society, and the world, to its misery. IMO thats the best medicine. a consequence of that, i believe would be encouragement towards self reliance, and the accompanied spiritual growth that neccessitates survival. that can only happen by minimizing the role of government intervention. like the old saying goes, 'give a man a fish, feed him for a day. but teach a man to fish, and feed him for a lifetime'. in that same tradition, its time we finally leave the world to its own divices, and let God handle the rest.

people will call me cruel, its just my opinion

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:11 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:11 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

The thing is the U.S has a startlingly good record
You're shitting us, right? I just posted about 100 of our "interventions" which ended in abysmal failure, and you point to three of four exceptions and call it "startling good"?

Er... the only thing startling is your assessment!



I specified countries that have been occupied - not just have seen 'interventions'. If you don't truncate my quote it holds true - and you can maybe understand what the Neocons were thinking. Nobody was satisfied with the sanctions status quo.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:11 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
personally, i think the US is/ and will be, the most benevolent empire the world will ever see. as much as i criticize America for its intervention, IMO human nature would have compelled any other "world-power" in the same way. the world is frankly lucky that it was us on top(although its not luck- its a consequence of good policy). we are truly blessed as Americans, to have recieved the knowledge and undestanding that underpinned US law, and enabled us access to such incredible wealth. just imagine if the world super-power had been the Nazis, Stalin or Mao!? we might not even be having this discussion

and yet, inspite of all that, we still strive to achieve a balance that does not neccessitate our constant intervention. that is why we are special.. and its the libertairan way, supported by the bill of rights/constitution. in those most simple terms, we are not permitted to do anything near the scale and reach that we have been; both foreign and domesticly. so in that respect, i think we should bid adieu, and leave popular society, and the world, to its misery. IMO thats the best medicine. a consequence of that, i believe would be encouragement towards self reliance, and the accompanied spiritual growth that neccessitates survival. that can only happen by minimizing the role of government intervention. like the old saying goes, 'give a man a fish, feed him for a day. but teach a man to fish, and feed him for a lifetime'. in that same tradition, its time we finally leave the world to its own divices, and let God handle the rest.

people will call me cruel, its just my opinion



Picture yourself on the receiving end of that benevolence AM and tell me you feel the same way


tyrants are tyrants

murderers are murderers

why try to read more into it than that

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


To respond, Gino, for hopefully the last time:
Quote:

You seem to want the status quo, or have no idea how to effect any change at all... you seem just to not like the reality change may just be forced upon you
Aside from the option of violence, I have done everything under our system I can to effect change. I have supported and donated to candidates I feel can be effective, written, called and e-mailed on issues, marched many, many times. You want revolution, and that's the only "solution" you will accept. My car was filled with bumperstickers, I educated myself and everyone I came into contact with who was willing to listen, be they in person or on the internet.

And yes, I DID have change forced upon you; I had eight years of it and it was horrible. If we get bombed or revolt, as you so dearly want us to, I think you'll find it spills over into your country one way or another, and you'll find the price you pay for wanting violent overthrow of a government wasn't quite worth it.

You are again starting to misrepresent me; I never said because all empires do it, it's okay; I said ALL EMPIRES DO IT. Throughout history. That's called "perspective"; I do not see us as any worse and only equal to or slightly better in some cases than other empires. You seem to see us exclusively as the Evil Empire.

If we're bombed, how do you expect it not to turn into WWIII? How do you expect the entire rest of the world not to be affected, most of all the countries nearest to us? How realistic is THAT?

I live in a complex world; you live in a simple one: they do wrong, bomb them. Ergo, we have nothing to say to one another. I agree to disagree, tho' I doubt you'll let it go at that. I'd prefer not to see what I write turned into what YOU believe it is, not what it really is.

You unqualifiedly and violently hate America and Americans and want us bombed; I get it. I don't. You don't get it. End of story.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:38 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Niki,


Without people like you, the US never could have started down this road...

Nothing you have done to stop it has accomplished anything... why seek any credit for failure?

Well I tried, doesn't mean a hell of alot to the growing stacks of dead does it now


" hopefully the last time: "

perfect... don't go away mad. just go away


" You unqualifiedly and violently hate America and Americans and want us bombed "

do unto other as they do onto you, golden rule right? seems other Americans here can wrap their heads around that reality, maybe stay off these threads if reality upsets you so






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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I specified countries that have been occupied - not just have seen 'interventions'. If you don't truncate my quote it holds true - and you can maybe understand what the Neocons were thinking. Nobody was satisfied with the sanctions status quo.
So why did Iraq turn into such a clusterf*ck, compared to Germany and Japan?

MAYBE because in Germany we specifically sought to rebuild to protect ourselves from an economically-driven repeat of the WWI reparations, but in IRAQ Richard Bremmer sought to spread Iraq's legs for corporate rape and make Iraq pay for it's own invasion? (Like what was done to Germany post WWI.)

The reason why I point to our "interventions" as opposed to our "occupations" is to repeat the point that our motivations for going into a country drive the outcome. It doesn't matter whether it's a full-scale invasion and occupation, a "simple" invasion, an intelligence-directed overthrow, or covert and protracted harassment... if we're going into a nation for profits that nation will be screwed over from the get-go.... AND THAT'S OUR USUAL MO.

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:57 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would."

Gino, SignyM, Kwicko, Frem

You forget you are dealing with the only person on the board who uses both logic AND reason !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:21 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"And you think the E. Germans were shooting at folks trying to climb IN, not OUT, right ?

The level of voluntary ignorance on your part knows no bounds."

And the odd thing - when the two Germanies were united West Germany took a big business hit - and the East German standard of living went down nearly 50%.

Just shows you where the priorities lie.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


KPO

Experienced generals TOLD THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THAT IT WOULD TAKE MANY MORE TROOPS TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.

They were frozen out of the process and replaced with more malleable generals who parroted the neo-CON position that the US would be greeted with rose petals as liberators and everyone would live happily ever after.

It’s not like all the chaos happened by accident, unless you count bias, blind stupidity and arrogance IN THE FACE OF BETTER EXPERIENCE as an accident.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:29 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I specified countries that have been occupied - not just have seen 'interventions'. If you don't truncate my quote it holds true - and you can maybe understand what the Neocons were thinking. Nobody was satisfied with the sanctions status quo.
So why did Iraq turn into such a clusterf*ck, compared to Germany and Japan?

MAYBE because in Germany we specifically sought to rebuild to protect ourselves from an economically-driven repeat of the WWI reparations, but in IRAQ Richard Bremmer sought to spread Iraq's legs for corporate rape and make Iraq pay for it's own invasion? (Like what was done to Germany post WWI.)

The reason why I point to our "interventions" as opposed to our "occupations" is to repeat the point that our motivations for going into a country drive the outcome. It doesn't matter whether it's a full-scale invasion and occupation, a "simple" invasion, an intelligence-directed overthrow, or covert and protracted harassment... if we're going into a nation for profits that nation will be screwed over from the get-go.... AND THAT'S OUR USUAL MO.



I think several factors were of benefit in regards to Germany...

fear of the Soviets being the biggest one

and the acceptance that what befell them was a result of the Nazis, and I think most Germans of the day felt some responsibility over that


but yes, if what Bremmer sought had of been tried in either Germany or Japan... resistance would have started up again



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