California, home of nutcases, is once again on the cutting edge. I like this idea; for one thing, it might highlight puppy mills and make them lose thei..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Should Animal Abusers, like Sex Offenders, Be Registered?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, March 5, 2010 13:18
SHORT URL:
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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


California, home of nutcases, is once again on the cutting edge. I like this idea; for one thing, it might highlight puppy mills and make them lose their licenses.

As I said, we're home of the nutcases, and SF reflects it. Proud of it's ancestry fighting animal cruelty (named for St. Francis and being the first SPCA in the West), it passed an ordiniance a few years back that pets were no longer to be spoken of as "owned", but as "guardians":
Quote:

San Francisco recently joined a growing number of cities that think of their animal-owning population also as pet guardians. The first city to change its ordinance was Boulder, Colo., followed by Berkeley and West Hollywood in California; Sherwood, Ariz.; Amherst, Mass.; Menomonee Falls, Wis.; and the state of Rhode Island.

"Animals need to be regarded as more than the material property of an owner," Dr. Elliot Katz, president of In Defense of Animals, said in January 2003 after the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted 8-3 in favor of the measure.

But city councils and state legislatures aren't rushing to adopt the new language. It took more than three years for San Francisco to make the change."

"There is an underlying goal here, and that is to attain standing at court," Dr. Flemming explained, while noting that animal rights groups have so far been unsuccessful in their attempts to sue for the interest of an animal.

"You have to do that outside the property laws," Dr. Flemming continued. "So if you can get the language changed from 'owner' to 'guardian,' then you've got a greater chance at getting one of these cases before a court and (arguing) that it's the interests of the animal that need to be protected, not the interest of the owner."

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/mar03/030301d.asp

Okay, so we're nuts, but we're not alone. I'm proud to hear about the efforts to rehabilitate abused dogs; most notably, the 500 dogs rescued from Michael Vicks' dog fighting enterprise. A group I strongly recommend who took and rehabilitated the worst cases is DogTown, an organization whose work in rehabbing and rehoming dogs is amazing.

So, tho' I have questions about this new measure, I find it an effort at a step forward in what is a needed change in how people treat their pets:
Quote:

Cruelty to animals, it is said, is often a precursor to graver crimes. So would there not be some usefulness to a registry of individuals convicted of felony animal abuse? Legislators in California want the Golden State to be the first to establish such a record — just as California was the first in the nation to create a registry of sex offenders

The goal of the registry, which would list crimes against both pets and farm animals, is to make it easier for shelters and animal-adoption groups to identify people who shouldn't be allowed access to animals. It would also be a boon to law enforcement because animal abuse, the bill's authors' say, often escalates to violence against people. Abuses covered in the bill would include the malicious and intentional maiming, mutilation, torture, wounding or killing of a living animal. It would also target pet hoarders and operators of animal-fighting rings (such as dog-baiting and cockfighting) who have felony convictions.

I'll avoid photos of abused animals, but here are a few included of attack dogs that were rehabilitated:


Ladybug, left, was pregnant with ten pups; Dharma had her mutilated leg amputated


Aubrey, left, was dehydrated and full of parasites; Sherman's ears were crudely razored off for fighting.


With scars from bite wounds on her face and forelegs, Layla, left, probably survived several prolonged fights. Although she is full of eager affection for her handlers, they have to carefully choreograph her entrances and exits from the kennel so that she does not encounter a fellow fighting dog. Winston demands nonstop belly rubs.


At the start, Daisy, was too scared to leave her pen. Sly's neck was inflamed from her tight collar.


Bob, left, was found at the end of a 30-lb. logging chain. Big Red scrambles into any available lap.
Quote:

"We think California is primed for this kind of a bill," says state senate majority leader Dean Florez, who introduced the bill in late February. "We've progressed to the point where we as a legislature are moving in a direction of this bill, which is ultimately, How do we in essence prevent repeat offenses when it comes to cruelty to animals in the state of California?" It is an issue that, Florez says, Californians care for deeply. About 60% of California residents own pets, he says; add in farm animals, and 80% of the population has some kind of ownership of animals.

The bill's biggest stumbling block may be the funding it would require. Created with the assistance of the Animal Legal Defense Fund, the bill would raise the approximately $500,000 to $1 million necessary for its launch through a 2- or 3-cent tax per pound of pet food, says Florez, a Democrat who is chairman of the Food and Agriculture Committee. He estimated that after it's launch, the project could cost between $300,000 to $400,000 a year to maintain. Yet even that relatively small amount has some organizations, including a national pet-product trade group and even the Humane Society, raising concerns. Jennifer Fearing, California senior state director and chief economist for the U.S. Humane Society, supports the measure's aims but worries about whether it can get passed. Says Fearing: "I would be shocked if this legislature is prepared to enact any tax this year, much less one levied on pet owners who are struggling to care for their animals, when many of them are dropping them off at shelters."

More at http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1969346,00.html?hpt=T2


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Probably. Though I think Frem would jump in here to say that that's only a quick fix and maybe would we should do is fix whatever it is that makes people abuse other living things (and people) in the first place.

I'm on kind of a Frem kick today.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


While I think that argument is the answer, the one flaw in it is that it's impossible to change that fix won't work. Not on our species, sadly.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Abusers should be given the choice to be gelded or put to sleep.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Now is that anything for someone on the boddhisatva path to say? A bit grumpy today, is we?

Not that I don't agree with you on a viseral level, and I could think of many more equivalent responses...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:33 AM

MINCINGBEAST


absolutely not.

far be it from me to defend sex offenders, or people who are cruel to animals, but our sex offender registry laws are absolutely broken, needlessly punitive, and not necessarily effective in protecting the public. a comparable registry system is uncalled for.

those who abuse animals, who are totally reliant upon us and have no choice in the matter, are the lowest of the low, but creating a black list that will prevent them from finding housing or employment does nothing to help animals. moreover, the definition of animal abuse is actually rather fluid.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:35 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Abusers should be given the choice to be gelded or put to sleep.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010



instead they get NFL contracts


Still Pissed is all


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"creating a black list that will prevent them from finding housing or employment" Actually, I don't think that would come into the situation...landlords and employers wouldn't check such a list, as landlords and parents might check the child-abuser list to be sure their neighbors are safe.

My main point is that I think it would go a long ways toward stopping puppy mills. I recognize it's not perfect and there are arguments against it, but in my heart of hearts, I like it.

By the way, I think people who abuse children might be just one rung lower, or at least at the same level...tho' I love animals much more than most people, I do recognize that.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh c'mon, not an "all humans are evil" argument. You're better than that.

"Humans are evil" is just yet another justification allowing people to mistreat other people. Humans are NOT evil and I'm tired of hearing people argue that.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
A bit grumpy today, is we?


I just can't stop laughing at Gino's hamster comment...

Seriously, no, I don't think it'd help. But making abuse a crime as serious as, oh, littering on the highway ($25,000 fine where I live), would be a start.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:


"Humans are evil" is just yet another justification allowing people to mistreat other people. Humans are NOT evil and I'm tired of hearing people argue that.

I agree.
They're stupid, not evil.

Sorry, couldn't resist, heh heh


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Torturing animals should be a felony conviction.

What does a registry do that a prior felony conviction doesn't, in terms of identifying potential sociopaths/ sadists?

The current sex offender registry (which is indeed broken) precludes living in certain areas, of getting certain jobs, etc. I can see some of these restrictions being useful (eg, not a good idea to hire a convicted pedophile as a teacher) but some other restrictions are bogus.

The proposed animal abuser registry (which includes animal hoarders, who are operating from different motivations than sadists, who are operating from different motivations than animal-fighting promoters and puppy-mill owners) would do... what? All it would do is prevent animals from being sold to those on the registry. But surely committed sadists will obtain targets in other way, and hoarders and entreprenuers could be discouraged or redirected differently.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:50 AM

BYTEMITE


Chris: Nah, I'm behind you there. Humans could definitely be a lot smarter and cultivate a little more foresight.

And that's not to say that humans don't do bad things, but there's generally psychological reasons WHY.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:51 AM

MINCINGBEAST


registry laws are all about expressing our moral disgust at a certain conduct--they do little to remedy the harms caused by the conduct. they do, however, create a fair bit of bureaucracy, and in my opinion, social harms. not that the sex registry and mean-to-fido registry would be necesarily equivalent in severity.

also, note that people are evil, and stupid. see, we can have it both ways. but then again, i believe that all living things are, with the exception of my bunny rabbits and maybe obama.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow, you guys move fast!

If the remark about "humans being evil" was directed at me, that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that there will ALWAYS be a certain percentage of humans who are unable to recognize animals--or other humans!--as creatures with rights and feelings. I believe that--whatever creates them, and I don't believe ANY human is inherently evil, what they DO is evil, and they exist and I believe always will, unless we evolve...still waiting...

Oh Gino, me too, big time! Dogtown is a Nat Geo series, and it always assuages some of my anger when I watch it. It's run by Best Friends Animal Society ( http://www.bestfriends.org/atthesanctuary/angelcanyon/visitorfaq.cfm). Located out in the wilds of Nevada, in a place so aptly named "Angel Canyon", it's an enormous sanctuary serving all sorts of animals, but mainly dogs, and works miracles in rehabbing and rehoming animals.

I'd encourage you to visit their website (or catch them on TV if you get Nat. Geo), which is a balm to the anger we feel at the way pets are abused. There's some MARVELOUS stories there of animals who've been saved and given permanent homes. They do wonders medically and in rehabilitation of "problem dogs" and always take the worst cases which were tagged for death.

Want a quick fix for that anger? Go here: http://news.bestfriends.org/sanctuarystories/ Will make you feel good, I promise!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:56 AM

CHRISISALL


I think THE hardest thing to swallow for most peeps is, that if WE had been subjected to the neglect, abuse or straight-up horrors that so-called "evil" people had seen in their formative years, WE might have ended up just as "twisted."
The "No, I could never..." thing is just another extension of "Us V Them."


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


All living things are evil? Are you serious, or teasing? Wow.

You have bunnies??? How many, what kind?? Love bumping into another bunny lover; I have three dwarf rabbits, a Mini Rex, Hotot cross and, tiniest of all rabbits, a Netherland Dwarf. She's the biggest bitch of the three, except to me.

Had another Hotot and a Portugese Dwarf, but my husky, when younger, "played" with them and caused their demise. The first was his best bud, and got wrapped up in his legs; the second was my husband's fault for leaving the door open.

Tho' that was a play mistake, since he's grown he's proven to be "great white hunter"--brings dead rats in now and again, and last week, up at the Divide, flushed a mole--big one--and ATE IT! Ahhh, the wolf remnants of huskies...

We keep the bunnies, obviously, VERY safe from him now!

What kind, what are they like, what are their names, any photos? I realize this is thread-jacking, and apologize, but I can't resist!

Sig, I agree. If we could make animal abuse a SERIOUS crime, I wouldn't want a registry either. That doesn't look to happen any times soon, tho'...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Chris, agreed. Now you're back on buddhist track; good boy! I don't believe in "evil" people, none of them, even Hitler, even the worst of the worst (even CHENEY!). I believe in people who do evil THINGS, but as you said and Byte mentioned, there's always something behind it.

There may well be, however, people who are born with some kind of genetic brain synaptic problem rather than just abuse or something else, I admit that possibility.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:05 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

There may well be, however, people who are born with some kind of genetic brain synaptic problem rather than just abuse or something else



An absolute lack of empathetic capacity.

The Bad Seed!

I guess in some cases, still, not a reason to hate.

If you truly hate someone, a part of you hates yourself.


The polar Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, also like that disorder of children who weren't loved or paid any attention to--orphans in Russia, etc. Can't remember the name of the disorder, but it's pretty awful. Complete lack of empathy.

Didn't say I hated those with genetic flaws, or even that THEY are evil; just recognizing that category along with abuse is all. I sometimes say I "hate" someone (Cheney comes to mind), but I don't mean it in reality. I hate what people DO, but recognize there's always a reason the way they are...I TRY to be compassionate in real life, but in expressing myself, not so much!

Boy, I found one that really got you guys going, didn't I? Kewl...always looking for things that might twig your interest, should have figured something about animals/pets would getcha!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
should have figured something about animals/pets would getcha!


I'm mostly a veggiesaurus, more complex central nervous function demands a greater level of respect for sentience, IMO.
Unless, like, it's a tiger tryin' to kill ya, then all bets are off.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:25 AM

MINCINGBEAST


hi-jack: i have an english lop, by the name of petunia, and a russian lion head named buttercup. both are girls, as their names might suggest. i figured that as long as i was to have a sissy pet, i might as well go with it.

petunia is a hulking brute who specializes in stamping her feet in anger, hiding in her play tube like leviathan, and hunting raisins. buttercup is extremely friendly, maybe abnormally so. her ambition in life is to be a lap bunny, and she is also an avid dancer.

they're pretty good friends now, but when I first got buttercup, petunia wanted to kill her. now, they do the grooming and hanging out thing, but i still provide them with personal space...just in case.

note that bunnies are not food, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an enemy!

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Chris, even the tiger is just doin' what comes natural, as you know...kill 'im, yup, but I'd try to do it with compassion (once he's dead and can't hurt me, of course )

I'll have to remind Tashi of what you said, Mincing, when we're out hiking and he spots one! He did chase one up on the Divide, but they're too fast for him.

I LOVE Lionheads...they're so funny looking! My mini-rex, Mouse ('cuz she's colored just like one) is the shy baby--she was in a pet shop until she was too big to be sold, so I rescued her; too much handling and fear, so tho' she's good with me, she's shy.

Gozer (named after Ghostbusters 'cuz when he first came, he'd been stuck in a cage forever and was immediately "Gozer The Traveler") was a rescue from a yuppie family who weren't taking care of him...he's got myriad health problems, no front teeth, and is on antibiotics permanently, but he's the sweetest thing in the world.

Midi ("Midnight Therabunny) has my heart. Pure black and feisty, tho' she is the only one who gives me kisses and snuggles, long as I get down to HER level.

I love dwarfs, but they are unquestionably feistier than full-sized rabbits. Thought of getting one long ago, for lap-buddy status, but onc we got the huskies...sigh...

Okay, I'll quit thread-jacking and get back to business now...well, soon as I get off this damned computer and snuggle with Midi (I take each one into my bedroom--blocked off--while I'm on computer; Choey takes Gozer down and lets him roam her room free for hours--her lab/bloodhound cross "mothers" little beasties. I miss letting them wander out back or around the house, but try to make up for it.

THANK YOU Mincing, it was neat to imagine your guys from descriptions. Wish I could meet them, especially Petunia!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:42 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


When I visit with some family, I end up watching something called, I think, Animal Cops. And I have always been struck by the fact that an animal that's neglected - matted fur, dirty yard - seems to have more legal protection than a child. At least that seems to be true in some states.

I think we need to rethink things from a much broader perspective - we need to weigh different situations against each other, decide what is society's interest in it, and draft workable ways of dealing with it (not punishing, b/c punishing doesn't change anything).

Anyway, I think the registry is misguided. I'm not sure what it is intended to change, or if it will have a good effect.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I can't watch Animal Cops (they've got the show in a lot of different cities now, which you probably know). I can't take it. Dogtown and shows like it show me the rehabbing and rehoming, without a lot of the abuse (as in, the humans who abused).

You're right in some respects, to my way of thinking, but until we come up with that better way, I just want them stopped, punished if necessary, but stopped. Against my beliefs, I know, but sometimes I give in to visceral compulsions! This seems one way, and yes, there are ways around it, but it's a step forward. I want puppy mills outlawed, too, and there's legislation working on that, but too slowly.

I definitely don't think animals get more attention than kids; I think those in charge of child protection can be reeeely fucked up and underworked so things slip through the cracks, but when you put up the number of "animal cops" and other such organizations up against the population of the city, there is MUCH more care devoted to abused children.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I don't think people are BORN inherently evil, but I *DO* think that a person can BECOME completely evil, and uttery irredeemable. I don't think hug treatments and rehab were really going to help Ed Gein once he really got his hurt on.

So yeah, there's a PATH to evil, but there's definitely a destination and an end to that path, too. :)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 2:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Probably. Though I think Frem would jump in here to say that that's only a quick fix and maybe would we should do is fix whatever it is that makes people abuse other living things (and people) in the first place.

I'm on kind of a Frem kick today.






There's no shame in this...


We're making a better world.

All of them...

better worlds.



You all got on this boat for different reasons, but you all come to the same place... Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, 10, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, to get back to the topic - after thinking about it, it occurred to me that the people who torture animals who are MOST likely to progress to people start this as children.

There are several problems with our current and proposed laws especially when it comes to children. IF a registry is started, children will most likely be exempt. On top of that, it will be their parents who will be getting pets, not the children themselves. In which case the registry is moot. OTOH IF animal cruelty is made a felony and no registry is maintained, minors will often have their records expunged after reaching their majority.

Either way, the most valuable type of information, which is the progression of an early pathology to full blown adult one, will be lost.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Did someone imply that Mal likes to torture animals ?

I never knew that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Did someone imply that Mal likes to torture animals ?

I never knew that.



Meh, not so much. Might want to check out Serenity again. Mal's message seems to have escaped you.


In fact, your inability to comprehend such a basic concept appears to affect your judgement in other areas as well.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:35 PM

BYTEMITE


9_9 I wasn't saying change people's psychology.

But way to misconstrue. I really strike you as a big government authoritarian, huh? Thanks.

Oh, and considering I've been trying to keep people from piling on you out of a misguided sense of fairness.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's easy to say 'fix the bad people', as Mal knew all too well.

But what happens when its then decided that YOU need 'fixing' ?

I'm just sayin'.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:40 PM

BYTEMITE


And I said I'm not talking about psychology or bad people. Hell, I don't even believe there's any such thing as bad people.

Are you honestly trying to pull me into an argument when we AGREE?


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
And I said I'm not talking about psychology or bad people. Hell, I don't even believe there's any such thing as bad people.

Are you honestly trying to pull me into an argument when we AGREE?





Just showin' ya ( and others ) that certain things can be taken differently than intended.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:55 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Did someone imply that Mal likes to torture animals ?

I never knew that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




Do it Rue...



Do it for the Hamsters



You know you want to


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Byte

Don't feel bad. Here I have been poking holes in the idea of a registry and I get accused of being the Alliance.

Following the dictum of 'not thinking something is intentional if it can be explained by simple stupidity', I think it's a case of illiteracy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It's easy to say 'fix the bad people', as Mal knew all too well.

But what happens when its then decided that YOU need 'fixing' ?

I'm just sayin'.

Just showin' ya ( and others ) that certain things can be taken differently than intended

As if we had'nt noticed that before????

To clarify, Frem doesn't want to "fix" people. He wants to prevent them from being messed up to begin with. Unless you think that being beaten and constantly berated by parents is a good thing?



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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:35 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


There's a distinction to be made (that is probably too subtle for Rappy) here:

1) Trying to 'correct' or sanitise human nature.
2) Trying to undo/prevent psychological damage to members of the human population.

I am wholeheartedly for 2) (as much as is possible for government to have an impact). And I am very against 1) - though in some (extra-ordinary) cases I may advocate policies to temper human 'weakness' - like alcohol tax in Scandinavia or whatever.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
And I said I'm not talking about psychology or bad people. Hell, I don't even believe there's any such thing as bad people.

Are you honestly trying to pull me into an argument when we AGREE?





Just showin' ya ( and others ) that certain things can be taken differently than intended.






Boy, they sure can be. Like when you posted this elsewhere about Obama:

Quote:


When my President does that..... it really pisses me off.  Another reason to loathe this glorified communitiy organizer. 

That, and of course, because he's  black.




But surely you didn't mean that the way it sounded.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:56 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Just give em their own damn TV show.

The Michael Vick Project
http://www.bet.com/OnTV/BETShows/michaelvick/default.htm





I suspect 2 30-pound pit bulls killed and ate our neighbor's 200-pound Hungarian Kuvasz last week. Or coyotes, that I've never seen. That dog was 4 times bigger than our 70-pound Australian Kelpie and 80-pound Lab. Whatever ate that dog could kill any human.



This is what was left in fur and blood, after a hell of a fight:


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Friday, March 5, 2010 2:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Just so ya know, Byte, and the rest of ya...

By leaving me nothing to say, you've really, really made my day at the end of what's been a really frustrating week.

Even though this is where I come to "play", seeing folk who really understand the *why* - it means something to me, it means a lot.

Thank You.

-Frem

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:03 AM

OPPYH


In my neighborhood dog fighting is all over. It's not unusual to see teens or young adults riding bikes with a young dog next to them. The dogs usually have a harness connected pulling a stack of bricks(my guess would be about 30 pounds) on a sweltering summer day. The poor dog I noticed had his tongue literally dragging on the cement.
I noticed this one other time and the dog had a car rim connected to the harness There were a group of young adults gathered round him in a church parking lot. He couldn't pull it well and slowed, the young men(animals) whipped him with tree branches.
Training for dog fighting can be almost as brutal as the fight itself.


The best I can do for the poor animals is call the police which I do every time. Say something to them to stop, and I will probably be shot, or at the very least jumped.



-------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, Frem, you've had some pretty good advocates speaking for you, eh?

Mike, you misunderstand. It's not about being blind to the evil people do, and it's certainly not about hug therapy or rehab. The concept is simply to recognize people who do evil are humans, might have been different if they'd had the chance, and not despise the person, but the deed.

It has nothing to do with not incarcerating them, thinking rehab will work on everyone, or somesuch. What has to be done with people who do evil things has to be DONE...the concept is to be aware of their humanity, not demonize them into something subhuman. It's in our MINDS, and more important to us than to them. Our ACTIONS should be to do what's good to keep others safe from them.

Not saying rehab doesn't work--gawd knows there are tons of people in jail would could be helped, and many who don't even NEED to be; the cause for them being in jail in the first place being wrong, etc.

Am I making sense? Dunno how to say it otherwise, but you misunderstood; not advocating EXCUSING them, just recognizing the reasons. Compassion for the person they could have been, if you will.

Rue, you may be right:
Quote:

There are several problems with our current and proposed laws especially when it comes to children. IF a registry is started, children will most likely be exempt. On top of that, it will be their parents who will be getting pets, not the children themselves. In which case the registry is moot. OTOH IF animal cruelty is made a felony and no registry is maintained, minors will often have their records expunged after reaching their majority.
But I think the parents SHOULD be the ones held to account when there is a child involved; maybe if parents suffered a punishment for letting their kids do things like that, they'd pay more attention. And I think it's pretty fair to guess that parents who had suffered because of their children's animal abuse would be pretty quick to make sure their kids didn't have pets anymore...self-interest, y'know?

Can't stop what they do to wildlife, or other people's pets if they get ahold of them, but I do think it's ONE solution which might go a ways toward helping. Not the only one, not the perfect one, but a start.

Byte, Byte, Byte; when will you learn? That noise is going to hiss and spit no matter what you try to do. I wouldn't call it a misguided sense of fairness as much as an ability to empathize and kindness...but it's wasted, dear, truly it is, and you deserve better.

KPO, I agree about your two solutions. But while I, too, would go for #2. But in real life, what would you do with those who couldn't be helped? Because I don't see any large movement yet toward TRULY making a dent in how kids are treated, so what do you do when they grow up and act on those proclivities (look it up, wind)? That's the question which deals with reality as it is now, to me. That's what the issue is trying to deal with.

I know the proposed idea is flawed--isn't every single on of our laws, essentially? There are ways to get around them, ways they can be misconstrued, ways they can be ignored by those in power...why is this any different?

Ow, Op, just the vision conjured up is painful. I'd get beaten up or shot, dammit, 'cuz I have trouble controlling my impulses in such situations. Where do you live? If ANYONE EVER tried that around here, THEY'd be beaten up or shot!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:43 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Where do you live? If ANYONE EVER tried that around here, THEY'd be beaten up or shot!


Grand Rapids Michigan.

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70's TV FOREVER

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Hey Frem, no worries. Been wondering where you've been at.

You've definitely made a difference in how people think here and given us some answers for why people do bad things, and what to do about it that respects human dignity and individuality.

If you feel up to it at some point, posting about your bad week would probably be a good way to vent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I know the proposed idea is flawed--isn't every single on of our laws, essentially?"

I still don't know exactly what this registry is intended to do. But if it is to generally stop different types of animal abuse - economically motivated abuse, culturally motivated abuse, and pathologically motivated abuse - the questions to ask are: 1) how big of an impact will it have, and 2) what are the negative consequences of the bill ?

My issue is that as a tool to fix a problem, it may not work very well, and may carry negative effects we don't like.

Economically motivated abuse and neglect is the group to most reasonably target, b/c they are considering both reward and cost. Make the costs high enough and the calculation changes. But a registry may not be the most effective tool - a felony law might be better.

The other groups I don't see as being amenable to being blacklisted. They WILL find a way around the restrictions, and there is no meaningful cost such as social disapproval that will be applied.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by OPPYH:
Grand Rapids Michigan.


You poor bastard, but hey, at least you get the boomstick!


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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey Frem, no worries. Been wondering where you've been at.

You've definitely made a difference in how people think here and given us some answers for why people do bad things, and what to do about it that respects human dignity and individuality.

If you feel up to it at some point, posting about your bad week would probably be a good way to vent.



True story. Frem's probably had the biggest impact on my thinking of anyone here. It's the reinforcing of the idea that you MUST keep asking yourself, "And WHY do I think that?" It's been an enlightening journey, I must say...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But I think the parents SHOULD be the ones held to account when there is a child involved; maybe if parents suffered a punishment for letting their kids do things like that, they'd pay more attention. And I think it's pretty fair to guess that parents who had suffered because of their children's animal abuse would be pretty quick to make sure their kids didn't have pets anymore...self-interest, y'know?
I lived in a townhouse complex for many years, so I had a bunch of physically close neighbors with small children. Justin, when he was just 4 y/o, took to knocking over his 2 y/o neighbor’s daughter when the moms weren’t looking. Christie would wind up on the ground crying, the moms would turn around “Justin, what happened?” and get the answer “Christie fell”. All of Justin’s small pets “died”. My daughter just LOVED to play with him, but knowing his history I kept a very close eye on her. Despite my vigilance, he managed to push her off a top bunk bed, and hit her in the head with a baseball bat. He was 7. At 10, he was “playing” with a neighborhood kid, knocked him over and broke his arm. At 12, he seduced a sad, lonely 16 y/o boy into a homosexual encounter, “exposed” him, and sent him to jail. I always suspected the dad was sexually abusive, but could never figure out when or how, since the mom doted on her son. I tried a few times to tell the mom something was wrong, but she was a devout Seventh Day Adventist (I believe) who thought that everything could be cured with wholesome food and hot and cold showers, that marriage was sacred, and she was totally in denial.

ETA: And then, OTOH, maybe its the Dark Spark. Justin's paternal grandma was schizo.

With kids who kill their pets, there seems to be a lot more pathology than just that. Pets are not the problem, and parent punishment is not the solution.

(Names changed to protect the guilty)

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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:38 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You poor bastard, but hey, at least you get the boomstick!




Yeah, it's sweet that one of the coolest movies ever has a shout out to where I live

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70's TV FOREVER

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