Interested to see what others think of this.[quote]It's the most effective and economical way to prepare troops for counterinsurgency operations. Traini..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Let India Train the Afghan Army

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, February 22, 2010 03:08
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1755
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, February 19, 2010 1:12 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interested to see what others think of this.
Quote:

It's the most effective and economical way to prepare troops for counterinsurgency operations.

Training the Afghan army is "the most critical part" of America's "long-term strategy" in the country, U.S. special envoy Richard Holbrooke said Monday. Pakistan agrees, and has suggested it can help, too. Yet the best candidate for the task is the Indian Army.

This million-strong force has had close to 60 years' of intense counterinsurgency experience in a variety of terrains. Indian troops have successfully carried out campaigns in jungles in India's northeast, at high altitudes in Jammu and Kashmir and in the plains in the Punjab. Its officers and enlisted men have counterinsurgency experience in both urban and rural environments.

India already has the capacity to impart this knowledge to friendly forces. The country boasts one of the world's largest military training establishments, with the ability to train officers and men for varying combat duties. Educational facilities include a major counterinsurgency training base—the Counterinsurgency and Jungle Warfare School—and a school focused on urban warfare in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, the site of an ongoing insurgency. Both can simulate a variety of combat situations and provide the Afghan Army with training relevant to the terrain and physical conditions that its troops are likely to encounter upon deployment. India's counterinsurgency schools also come complete with firing ranges, obstacle courses and training areas for the detection and handling of improvised explosive devices.

Beyond such infrastructure, however, the Indian Army has at its command significant accumulated knowledge of counterinsurgency operations and techniques. Its substantial cadre of instructors have ample field experience and routinely train India's forces in counterinsurgency operations. The Indian military has formulated a viable, codified doctrine to fight counterinsurgency. This doctrine calls for important restraints on the use of force, highlights the significance of not alienating civilian populations, insists upon respect for local customs and emphasizes the importance of an eventual political solution to all insurgencies. These principles are routinely stressed in the curricula of the counterinsurgency schools and applied to the best extent possible in field operations. There is little reason to believe that within a specified span of time they could not be inculcated into the Afghan Army too.

Finally, thanks to some setbacks over the years, most notably in its operations in Sri Lanka and subsequently in Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Army has taken heed of and learned a great deal from its past errors. Its leadership has undertaken a number of organizational innovations to best cope with counterinsurgency operations. Since 1990, for instance, India has fielded a contingent called the Rashtriya Rifles (literally "National Rifles"), forces with an optimal "teeth to tail" ratio, specifically trained in counterinsurgency operations. These units, drawn from the regular Indian Army, have proven especially effective when deployed in Jammu and Kashmir and have managed to restore more than a modicum of order in the state.

The Indian Army has other advantages, too. Thanks to its cheap labor costs, it can train Afghan forces at a fraction of the costs of training them in similar duties almost anywhere in the United States or Western Europe. Rank and file Afghan soldiers would feel much more at ease in India than in most other parts of the world. India has cultural bonds with Afghanistan of very long standing and Afghans have over centuries traveled to various parts of northern India. Finally, critics of the Indian Army's counterinsurgency operations notwithstanding, its forces have learned to operate within the scope of the rule of law. Many officers who have exceeded their brief have been subject to court-martial and charges of human-rights violations are not swept under the carpet.

If training the Afghan Army is as important as the U.S.-led coalition says it is, then why not accelerate training in the place that's best served to do it? Not turning to India would amount to a grave strategic error.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704804204575068981162639
698.html?mod=asia_opinion





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Friday, February 19, 2010 3:18 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


My guess is that Pakistan would *seriously* dislike this. And that Pakistan is too important and fragile a strategic ally to upset in this way.

India probably has an interest in a stable Afghanistan but will be more than happy to leave it to NATO. And our unwilling-to-fight but otherwise very professional NATO allies (Germany, France etc.) are probably being put to good use already here.

I like the idea of future co-operation and partnership with India though, as I was telling my Nepalese friend recently. They could be the new Japan.

Heads should roll

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Friday, February 19, 2010 3:46 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Also, the ISI were training quite a few Pashtun to fight for them in Kashmir against India...

Some in Afghanistan may well welcome India, but it would only serve to further alienate the Southern tribal areas... as well as other parts of the country.

I could post about the animosity between Muslims and the majority Hindi / Sikh Indian army if you like... Much worse than the Sunni / Shia divide. Moving India in would make any negotiated peace in Afghanistan even more difficult and likely result in a change of government in Pakistan and an end to whatever co-operation they are giving NATO now... ie forget moving any supplies through Pakistan.

In addition the writer in question is a card carrying member of the CFR, and than alone I feel makes his opinion questionable, as they are the crowd that started all these messes to begin with, perhaps such a move is designed to make an NATO / India invasion of Pakistan justifiable... I wouldn't put anything past these people.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/61731/sumit-ganguly/will-kashmi
r-stop-indias-rise







Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, February 19, 2010 5:09 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Perhaps this is why the CFR have a hard on for India


For the Arms Industry, India Is a Hot Market

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1966605,00.html#ixzz0g2f
8Hgoj






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


(Don't tell anyone, but I posted it mostly because of how idiotic the idea is. But you guys caught on...damn!)



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Saturday, February 20, 2010 11:52 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
(Don't tell anyone, but I posted it mostly because of how idiotic the idea is. But you guys caught on...damn!)




I notice that many of your posts are like that--idiotic !

You can count on many of us to consistently notice , and see the fallacious 'logic' at work in the core of your posts...

Thanks for noticing that many Folk are smarter than you...It gives us hope that you are not completely brain-blown...

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:50 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I notice that many of your posts are like that--idiotic !


Hmm. Meow.

Niki, when did you acquire a 13 year old boy enemy?

Heads should roll

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

You can count on many of us to consistently notice , and see the fallacious 'logic' at work in the core of your posts...


Overreact much, O2?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:42 PM

TRAVELER


I often play devils advocate. It gets ideas and blood flowing. It would be nice if some of the other Islamic nations gave a hand. It is their region of the world after all.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 3:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
I often play devils advocate. It gets ideas and blood flowing. It would be nice if some of the other Islamic nations gave a hand. It is their region of the world after all.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler



Probably not doing so in order to avoid the uprisings that would occur amongst their own people...

Do you think the average guy on the street in Egypt, or Syria, or Lebanon, or Saudi have any love for the US and its foreign policy?

The governments in those countrys say one thing, but the people do have their own opinions




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 3:20 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Another thing to note


Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Kuwait, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Syria,and the United Arab Emirates participated in the first Gulf War...

I have read that it was with the understanding that the war was to get Iraq out of Kuwait, and that was it. There would be no occupation of Iraq... and this was the real reason behind the lack of attacks into Iraq at that time.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 3:58 PM

TRAVELER


I know these nations supported the first war on Iraq. Iraq actually entered Saudi Arabia.
I just wish we would keep out of their affairs. This includes Israel. Israel keeps pushing more settlements into the weat bank and finally had to admit to the phosphorus attack in Gaza. And let the UN deal with Iran if they don't want them to have nukes. You can't stop the whole world from getting them. The knowledge is out there.
I understand our war on Al-Qaeda since the 9/11 attacks and that the Taliban allowed them to have training camps so they needed to be delt with.
I see the reason for this "surge" to remove the last hold the Taliban has on Afganistan and then I would like us out of there. We are suppose to be getting out of Iraq and I hope the will soon be the case in Afganistan.
So that leaves our support for Israel. I would like us to get togh on their policy of creating settlements on the west bank. In truth I don't know if Hamas or any of the other countless factions there will make peace with Israel if they change this policy.

Trying to get to spelling of all these Islamic factions and nations sure keeps me checking in Wiki alot.

Maybe what I am saying makes little sense because our involvment makes so little sense to me. It always seems to lead back to oil.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 4:19 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


My biggest problem with our involvement in Afghanistan is that after 911, the US demanded they hand OBL over, then the Taliban said hold on a second here, we need to either hold an extradition treaty, or have one held by a neutral third party. You come present your evidence of his guilt, and we will turn him over to someone who will give a fair trial ( maybe the ICC )

The US response was invasion.

Every time we ignore the diplomatic road, and allow the only international law be might is right we lose opportunity to moderate the world, let reason decide issues and not backroom deals.

Besides which, I would love to see the evidence presented.

This also interests me about the Khalid Sheik Mohammed trial...

Will they allow evidence obtained through torture, paid off witnesses, and crooked expert witnesses as they did in the lockerbie bomber trial. Or will they convict him honestly, or maybe not if they try some shenanigans and get caught at it.


As for Israel, to settle that will require more than just a freeze on settlements... It will take major concessions to end that one, ones the Israelis won't make lightly. Mind you given the resources being pissed away every year because of that issue... It would be cheaper to end that problem, that let it continue on and on ( not to mention the suffering it is causing )



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 4:45 PM

TRAVELER


It has been so bad and for such a long time in Israel that I wonder if any course will settle their mutual hatred. It has been some time since I saw the footage, but one news agency filmed an Israelie firing indiscriminately into a group of Palestinians that were just going about their daily lives. No demonstrations or riots going on. Actions like that and the treatment in Gaza tells me Israel has a long way to go. This goes back decades, so we are talking generations of hate.

But I am not telling you nothing new. I am just letting off some steam.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:13 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
It has been so bad and for such a long time in Israel that I wonder if any course will settle their mutual hatred. It has been some time since I saw the footage, but one news agency filmed an Israelie firing indiscriminately into a group of Palestinians that were just going about their daily lives. No demonstrations or riots going on. Actions like that and the treatment in Gaza tells me Israel has a long way to go. This goes back decades, so we are talking generations of hate.

But I am not telling you nothing new. I am just letting off some steam.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler



Part of getting over hate is hope,

I think massive aid to build a viable independent secure Palestinian state would be required.

Also a cooling off period is needed,

the west could help in this

if we go with the 1967 borders, and east Jerusalem as a capital, the Palestinians would agree to almost anything else...

Prisoner release, perhaps with a bone to the Israelis that the ICC won't go after their guys if a hearing process sprung everybody who doesn't need to be in a Israeli jail.

Then Palestine is set up as a UN protectorate, with a UN chief of state ( with a sundown clause ) in agreement to accept all the aid to rebuild, they take a UN appointee to run the country for five years.

During this time, a three brigade force under the UN ( no US troops ) step in to provide security. Not policing, while providing support to police the militarys main role is to 1. Block any Israeli incursions, 2. Make the people in Palestine feel that no incursions will happen. ( cypress style peacekeeping ) 3. Aid reconstruction.

Rebuild the country, let the political groups ( such as Hamas) demilitarize themselves, and participate in the rebuilding. Then grassroots elections, mayors, city councils, etc.

Maybe 3 years in, elect a federal parliament to advise the UN chief. Education and Healthcare will be the big part of the aid at this time, hopefully by now moderates will separate from extremists in political debate... The trick is to involve as many groups as you can without infighting taking over ( why an outside boss is necessary, and with the money coming in to rebuild it would be a reasonable trade )

At this point too, officer selection for a Palestinian Military will begin, they will go to participating country's for training ( ie Britain, France, Canada, etc )

Five years in, in a process approved by the elected parliament ( whom has had several elections at this point, weeding out the chaff of bad candidates ) a president is elected, and foreign aid slows down, as the Palestinians are able to take over their own defense, they do so. Foreign troops begin a phased withdrawal.

Without the support Israel currently gets from the US, I feel after 5 years or so, they will lose the ability to do what they do with their neighbors...

With the limited size of the Palestinian economy, they will not have the power to start anything either.

Besides, with the rebuilding process being where it would be at the end of five years, they would have alot more to lose than they have now.
Training their military will also encourage this, as they will come away with a western view of the results of conflict, and may well be the voice of reason in the future.


I know I am dreaming, but dreaming keeps me sane






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 6:08 PM

TRAVELER


Hope and dreams are where great things start. So don't count your ideas out. It makes more sense then that wall they're building.
Some sane people have to start seeing reality.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Hmm Gino, in your calmer moments you seem to support a 2-state solution, and trust the UN to not just be an instrument of US foreign policy.

I'm not so sure of Hamas etc. being so willing to demilitarise, allow foreign troops to provide security (Turkish or other muslim troops maybe... if we're being optimistic) and generally call an end to their jihad to wipe Israel off the map. Even after a fair peace deal is agreed and implemented the middle-east's radical Islamist streak (the Palestinian people's biggest tragedy) will continue to pose a threat to Israel's security for generations to come. This is just the reality - Israel does a lot to anger the muslim world but right at the heart of this anger I think is muslim irritation at Israel's mere existence.

But apart from that our dreams on this issue are not so different. As soon as a viable, independent Palestinian state is formed, and is seen to flourish next to Israel (with international help as you say), the whole of the Islamic world can cool down and become more moderate.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:12 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Hmm Gino, in your calmer moments you seem to support a 2-state solution, and trust the UN to not just be an instrument of US foreign policy.

I'm not so sure of Hamas etc. being so willing to demilitarise, allow foreign troops to provide security (Turkish or other muslim troops maybe... if we're being optimistic) and generally call an end to their jihad to wipe Israel off the map. Even after a fair peace deal is agreed and implemented the middle-east's radical Islamist streak (the Palestinian people's biggest tragedy) will continue to pose a threat to Israel's security for generations to come. This is just the reality - Israel does a lot to anger the muslim world but right at the heart of this anger I think is muslim irritation at Israel's mere existence.

But apart from that our dreams on this issue are not so different. As soon as a viable, independent Palestinian state is formed, and is seen to flourish next to Israel (with international help as you say), the whole of the Islamic world can cool down and become more moderate.

Heads should roll



The UN is a tool of the US, but it doesn't need to be.

In other places Muslims troops have been quite accepting of British / French / Canadian troops,

note I did say no US troops, the posturing the US has had in this conflict, and what usually happens when the US gets boots on the ground would torpedo the idea almost immediately.

Turkish troops etc, would be ideal if they were there to police the Palestinian state, and may well participate in such a mission. The Western troops will point their weapons at Israel, and when the first indecent happens, whether it be a government ordered attack or a bunch of disgruntled former settlers causing shit... They will have instant credibility. Particularly if they have to kill some folk to keep the peace.

But it would take that, plus a huge economic aid package to make the two state solution work, what is going on right now will never work.

The formation of Israel was wrong ,a wrong done by the UN amongst others. That needs to be addressed before there can be peace. Israel then practiced ethnic cleansing while the world ignored it, wouldn't that piss you off ?

The reason why they refuse the acknowledge Israels existance ?

They have already had everything else taken away from them, what else do they have to negotiate with ?

My dream is just that, a dream. It will never happen.

So we are back to the one state mess, where the Palestinians will push for equal rights until they turn into a middle east South Africa .

Might take 10 -20 more years, but that is more likely than the crap going on now taking root.



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Niki, when did you acquire a 13 year old boy enemy?
What 13-year-old boy? I heard the sound of some spitting, but it resembled an overheated radiator...other than that, I didn't hear anything.

There USED to be a guy called O2B here who really disliked me, I know, but I think he vanished with the Wind...dunno.

As to Israel and all that, I'm not well versed enough to offer an opinion, except that I would like to see us back Israel less and more reasonably, and I think two separate countries is the only sensible and right thing to do. It would be nice if the US offered aid to both, but more than anything, I would like to see us cease our unilateral backing of Israel and willing blindness to their atrocities.



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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

Niki, when did you acquire a 13 year old boy enemy?
What 13-year-old boy? I heard the sound of some spitting, but it resembled an overheated radiator...other than that, I didn't hear anything.

There USED to be a guy called O2B here who really disliked me, I know, but I think he vanished with the Wind...dunno.



I think he's off teaching Australians how to work their radars. Seems they've been having a bunch of glitches with them, and O2Lunch fancies himself a bit of an expert.


As to India training the Afghan army, only one of Murdoch's rags could come up with such a ludicrous idea. As mentioned before, I don't really see the Pakistanis sitting still for this.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, that explains it. I actually agreed with him now and again, and he wasn't as virulent sometimes as that other noise; maybe he'll come back some day.

Yes, I saw the idiocy of India training the Afghans right off...it's too laugh. In part, it tickled me to see how fast it was picked up on and the well-informed reasons it was dissed.

I DID say the "well-informed" ones...



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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, in case you wanna be reminded of how fucking crazy the folks we have in charge of this shit are...

Here's Fred Reed dissecting an interview with mister Holy-War McChrystal.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed173.html

"Oh lord. Oh lord. I can’t stand it. Somebody get me a drink."

Indeed, cause that about sums up MY reaction whenever that maniac opens his mouth, too.

-F

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