REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

FDA Criminalizes Honest Food Production By Subsistence Farmers

POSTED BY: OUT2THEBLACK
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 15:11
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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:55 AM

OUT2THEBLACK




FDA Invades Non-Commercial Amish Farm in PA


February 8, 2010
By Deborah Stockton
NICFA

Kinzers, PA – At 9:40 a.m. Thursday, February 4, only a few miles from the scene of the Nickel Mines Amish massacre of 2006, another drama against the Amish began as agents of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) came onto the property of Amish farmer Dan Allgyer, without permission, claiming to be conducting an investigation.

Agents Joshua Schafer and Deborah Haney, from the Delaware FDA office, drove past Allgyer’s “No Trespassing” signs and up his driveway almost to his barn, where Allgyer happened to be outside. Allgyer approached the car, the agents got out and Allgyer asked them why they were there. They produced a piece of paper, asked Allgyer if he was Dan Allgyer, which Allgyer confirmed, asked him his middle initial and phone number, entered the information on the paper, told Allgyer they were there to do an inspection and started reading the paper to him, saying it gave them jurisdiction to be there.

The agents – Schafer did most of the talking – said they had a right to be there because “you produce food for human consumption.” Dan asked why they believed that and they said, “Well, you have cows. You cannot be consuming all the milk you produce.” They further stated, “If you get a milk truck in to move all this milk you sell milk to the public, therefore we have jurisdiction.”

Dan said, “This is a private farm, I do not sell anything to the public.”

As they continued to harass him about doing an inspection, Allgyer said, “You can sit in your car. I will call my lawyer.”

The agents remained standing.

Allgyer called his attorney who advised him to have the agents call him. When Allgyer told them to call his attorney Schafer replied, “You are the owner and you have to speak for yourself.”

They pressed him to talk and Schafer asked, “Are you refusing us an investigation? Allgyer replied, “That’s not what I’m saying.”

They kept repeating, “Are you refusing an investigation?”

Allgyer kept saying, “Call this guy” – meaning his attorney.

Allgyer said they must have asked him six times.


One of them said, “Even if you do not say so, you are still refusing an investigation.”

Eventually Schafer said, “If you refuse an investigation will you answer some questions?”

Allgyer said, “I’d rather not.”

When the agents continued to push him Dan said, “Is that a question?

Sheepishly, they said. ‘Yes.”

Allgyer said, “What did I say about questions?’

They replied, “Well we’re going to write this up as a refusal to have an investigation and give it to our higher officials.”

Dan felt they were threatening him at this point.

After that, they got in their car, drove out the driveway and parked on the neighbor’s property watching Allgyer.

A visitor, Ivan, who had been on the farm, though not part of the conversation, left in his truck soon after, and the FDA agents proceeded to follow him in their car, even when he stopped at a convenience store to use the facilities. After forty or fifty miles, Ivan called 911 and told the police he was being followed.

The state police – in two cruisers – pulled the agents over. Ivan pulled over as well.

Ivan said the police told him that the agents explained they were FDA agents and they had the right to follow him because they were conducting an investigation on the farm he left. They thought he had product and they wanted samples of the product.

Ivan responded by opening the back of the truck and revealing it was empty. The agents photographed the inside of the empty truck and gave Ivan a paper, claiming they had a right to inspect his truck. He told them they were harassing him. The state trooper said they had a right to follow and pull him over but they were in an unmarked car so Ivan would not have had to pull over.

As with Allgyer, the agents asked Ivan some information which they wrote on the paper they produced, then handed it to him.

Ivan asked them, “Why are you writing up a paper on me when you have no cause?”

They said, “We have a cause, because you left the farm.”

They claimed he had a load off the farm and they wanted samples.

Ivan said, “I didn’t know who you were.”

An agent replied, “You saw us at the farm.”

Ivan said. “That doesn’t make any difference, I didn’t know who you were.”

Ivan pointed out that he was at the farm but did not hear what they said. He was twenty feet or more away from them and was not involved in their conversation.

Ivan said the police told him they would record that the agents had been following him.

A spokeswoman for the FDA (reached at the phone number on the paper the FDA agents gave to Allgyer) said the FDA has no comment at this time because it is an ongoing investigation.

Dan Allgyer will meet with his county sheriff in the near future to apprise him of this incident.

We will update this story as needed.

http://www.knowthelies.com/?q=node/5249

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:00 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


WTF ?


why hassle the Amish ?


by definition, they want to be left alone right ?






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:17 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
WTF ?


why hassle the Amish ?


by definition, they want to be left alone right ?




Yes.

This has much to do with the implementation of Codex Alimentarius in the United States...

Food shortages are in store for the United States , and rules are in place to outlaw 'hoarding'. As with ammo , virtually any amount will be considered a hoard...

Branch Davidians just wanted to be left alone , also...

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:47 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


My wife puts it another way


They are not allowed to hassle drug corporations anymore so they need to justify their jobs by hassling someone else instead...





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA



You think that's nuts ?

The Unlikely Orchid Smuggler: A Case Study in Overcriminalization
http://www.heritage.org/research/legalissues/lm0044.cfm

Also Highly Reccommended.
Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556

Just more evidence that the real source of crime, misery and terrorism is our so-called "protectors", who wind up more brutal and less efficient than a mafia protection racket, whether it be the legalized extortion of "insurance", or the legalized terrorism of "law enforcement", it's really all the same...

What are your chances, personally, of ever MEETING, much less being aggressed upon, by a foreign terrorist ?
About Jack Shit.

What are your chances, personally, of ever meeting or being agressed upon by one of those so-called protectors ?
100%

So, when you think about it in terms of threat assessment, we oughta be bombing Langley and Quantico, yes ?

-F

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:35 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You think that's nuts ?

The Unlikely Orchid Smuggler: A Case Study in Overcriminalization
http://www.heritage.org/research/legalissues/lm0044.cfm

Also Highly Reccommended.
Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556

Just more evidence that the real source of crime, misery and terrorism is our so-called "protectors", who wind up more brutal and less efficient than a mafia protection racket, whether it be the legalized extortion of "insurance", or the legalized terrorism of "law enforcement", it's really all the same...

What are your chances, personally, of ever MEETING, much less being aggressed upon, by a foreign terrorist ?
About Jack Shit.

What are your chances, personally, of ever meeting or being agressed upon by one of those so-called protectors ?
100%

So, when you think about it in terms of threat assessment, we oughta be bombing Langley and Quantico, yes ?

-F



I was familiar with the 'Orchid Smuggler' travesty...

All your points are well-considered , above...

Here's more history from the farmfront :

Everything I Want to Do Is Illegal
JOEL SALATIN

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm

'Indeed, official policy views all these minority production and marketing systems that have been shown faithful over the centuries to be instead things that threaten everyone and everything. As a teepee dwelling, herb healing, home educating, people loving, compost building retail farmer, I represent the real answers, but real answers must be eradicated by those who seek to build their power and fortunes on a lie — the lie being that genetic integrity can be maintained when corporate scientists begin splicing DNA. The lie that, as Charles Walters says, toxic rescue chemistry is better than a balanced biological bath. The lie that farms are disease-prone, unfriendly, inhumane places and should be zoned away from people.'

http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Want-Do-Illegal-Stories/dp/0963810952

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:36 AM

STORYMARK


The Amish have phones?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:39 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The Amish have phones?




Some do...Doesn't necessarily make them part of the 'English' world...There are various levels of tolerance for some minor tech items among the Amish and Mennonite communities.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:42 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The Amish have phones?




Some do...Doesn't necessarily make them part of the 'English' world...There are various levels of tolerance for some minor tech items among the Amish and Mennonite communities.



I imagine it is view as a reasonable compromise for safety...

The ability to phone for medical help, etc

If they didn't the child welfare folks might be after them.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:30 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
My wife puts it another way


They are not allowed to hassle drug corporations anymore so they need to justify their jobs by hassling someone else instead...




Indeed.

'...Each FDA Failure Is Used to Augment the Agency's Powers

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has requested a $4.03 billion budget for Fiscal Year 2011--a 23 percent increase over the current year. A new report from the Independent Institute--"Medical Disasters and the Growth of the FDA," by historian Ronald Hamowy--traces the rise of the agency during the past century. Remarkably, the reforms that passed after the three health scares that were most crucial to the agency's growth would have not prevented those crises from occurring, according to Hamowy.

Each of these crises enabled the FDA to strengthen its grip on pharmaceutical companies and other medical innovators, "even though it likely meant that fewer new drugs would be developed," writes Hamowy.

Although the FDA was consistently ineffective at averting disaster, local authorities and private companies were immediately responsive to each situation, Hamowy argues. By revealing the agency's preoccupation with its own self-interest, Hamowy suggests that the FDA may be too mired in bureaucratic inefficiency and the distractions of politicking to reliably ensure the safety and quality of the products that it has sought to monitor.'

Press Release : http://www.independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID=142

"Medical Disasters and the Growth of the FDA," by Ronald Hamowy (2/10/10) http://www.independent.org/publications/policy_reports/detail.asp?type
=full&id=38


FDAReview.org: Economic studies of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, edited by Daniel B. Klein and Alexander Tabarrok.

http://www.fdareview.org/

Hazardous to Our Health? FDA Regulation of Health Care Products, edited by Robert Higgs

http://www.independent.org/store/book_detail.asp?bookID=41

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Branch Davidians just wanted to be left alone , also...



And once they set themselves on fire, they WERE left alone.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:42 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And now that little bit of Tourette's in me comes out - with an old joke: build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life ....


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The Amish have phones?


The Hutterites are pretty cool that way, they actually make use of tech, but in a way that attempts to reduce it's dehumanizing impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite

And while pacifistic to a high degree in the soldiering/warfare sense, at least one of the communities I am aware of is armed to the freakin teeth after the El Dorado incident, since if they ever DO find themselves at loggerheads with the powers-that-be, neither cooperation nor surrender seem good ideas to them.

Really though, they're actually some seriously cool folk if you don't provoke them, and they're right damned good at agriculture, as well as some lower-tech manufacturing since they approach the job wholeheartedly with a craftsmans eye for it.

They're actually the closest thing Christianity has to an Anarchist collective, and despite me having some strong issues with that belief system, one of the few factions of such where I actually *like* the people from it.

I no longer deal with them directly since we're both aware of just HOW "corrupting" my mere presence seems to be even if I utter not a word, but they're good people.

As for the FDA - that does seem to be a case of blindly reinforcing a defeat, doesn't it ?

-F

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:43 PM

CHRISISALL


F= Federal
D= Douchbag
A= Asswipes

Paid thugs & corporate sockpuppets.

Just my opinion.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Speakin of food...

Can any of you sciency-types make heads or tails of this one for me ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big
-fat-lie.html


It all sounds good, but I don't have the related background to know if they're fulla shit or not, and frankly it reads a little more like advertisement than research, so a "bullshit percentage" would be helpful here.

Just cause I don't buy the FDAs lies about what constitutes "healthy" (based on the ravings of known lunatic Everett Koop) doesn't mean imma buy someone elses just cause they *not* the FDA, that's a friggin boobytrap if there ever was one.

-F

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 3:04 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The Amish have phones?


The Hutterites are pretty cool that way, they actually make use of tech, but in a way that attempts to reduce it's dehumanizing impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite

And while pacifistic to a high degree in the soldiering/warfare sense, at least one of the communities I am aware of is armed to the freakin teeth after the El Dorado incident, since if they ever DO find themselves at loggerheads with the powers-that-be, neither cooperation nor surrender seem good ideas to them.

Really though, they're actually some seriously cool folk if you don't provoke them, and they're right damned good at agriculture, as well as some lower-tech manufacturing since they approach the job wholeheartedly with a craftsmans eye for it.

They're actually the closest thing Christianity has to an Anarchist collective, and despite me having some strong issues with that belief system, one of the few factions of such where I actually *like* the people from it.

I no longer deal with them directly since we're both aware of just HOW "corrupting" my mere presence seems to be even if I utter not a word, but they're good people.

As for the FDA - that does seem to be a case of blindly reinforcing a defeat, doesn't it ?

-F



Pretty easy to deal with too, nice folk

I have bought all kinds of produce, eggs and chickens from them over the years

My dad and I used to peasant hunt on their land too,

case of beer and promise to shut all the gates... no problem, good luck to you


I often thought if I ever went off the reservation, and found myself on a deck of government playing cards... one of those colonys might just take me in... grow a beard, forget my name and just disappear

Always pays to have an exit strategy




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 3:28 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Dan said, “This is a private farm, I do not sell anything to the public.”


Quote:

Rainbow Acres is a small family farm located in Lancaster County. Our goal is to live in harmony with nature. This means having our animals out in the fresh air and sunshine, eating green grass.

Due to our children still being small we specialize mostly in dairy products, including butter, heavy cream, and raw milk cheese. Our herd consists of Jersey and Normande cows, seasonal production. They are 100% grassfed. We also have a limited amount of beef and eggs.

We farm organically, but are not certified. We strive for high quality products at a reasonable price. Shipping available.

Rainbow Acres, Dan Allgyer, 26 South Kinzer Road, Kinzers PA 17535. (717) 442-0132.


http://tjrecipes.com/?page_id=867

http://www.eatwellguide.org/listing/detail/28689


Just sayin'.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FREM: Most government nutrition advice us full of horse-puckies, coming from the USDA to promote the consumption of cheap "commmodity foods": corn and all of its products (HFCS, corn oil etc.), wheat, soy, milk, and cheap meat.

There was a curious notation in Protein Power (which BTW does a great job of explaining endocrinology). An epiphany came to one of the authors when visiting a small hog farm: Hog food, designed to put FAT on hogs as quickly as possible, has THE SAME composition of carbohydrates, fats, and protein as the USDA FOOD PYRAMID. And we wonder why people are getting fat???

Clearly, something is wrong!!

As a sufferer of reactive hypoglycemia, I've learned that sugar and MOST forms of flour are not my friends!

"Whole grains", the supposed "best" dietary basis, doesn't work for me, as the most commonly found whole grain is whole wheat, and I'm gluten intolerant... along with 3% of the population

Salt is a dietary necessity! And, it doesn't matter how much sodium chloride you eat, as long as you balance it out with potassium. A SINGLE serving of fruit or vegetable will lower risk of stroke 40%.

If drinking hard water (loaded with magnesium) lowers heart attack rates (and it does)... we must be incredibly deficient in magnesium. But, what does that say about our consumption of bottled water, from which all beneficial minerals have been stripped? Magnesium, BTW, is found in nuts, green leafy vegies, and whole grains.

Grass-fed meat is superior to CAFO meat.

The combination of starch, grease, salt, and sugar is powerfully addicting. This combination is found in nearly all highly processed snack and fast-foods.

We eat way too much vegetable oil, and not enough omega-3 fatty acis (found in fish, and grass-fed animals).

I eat lots of colorful vegies with some organic meat ... for example, yesterday we had grass-fed beef with 'shrooms and purple potatoes; and red and golden chard cooked with white wine*, onion, garlic, lemon, and parmesan.

Today, its chicken grilled with yellow peppers, white wine* and rosemary; and salad with kalamta olives, balsamic vinegar and a sprinkling of blue cheese.

Learn more:
www.michaelpollan.com/

*The Smart Woman knows to cook with wine. Some of it even winds up in the food!

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:19 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


"Animal I.D." and "Premesis Registration" laws and regs already require an expensive license tag for ALL farm animals and all pets, but multinational corporate farms are exempt (since their lawyers wrote the law and bribed the politicians). States are slowly trying to enforce this bogus law, by arresting 4H kids at county fairs for not buying the license.

The kosher Green Nazis have already outlawed all private farming, under various international treaties. All that remains is enforcing the unconstitutional regulations, whether national, state, county or city police state death squads. All vitamins and herbs are banned by Codex Alimentarius, all non-multinational farms are banned, all pets are banned ("dogs have a bigger carbon footprint than 2 SUVs"). 55-million humans babies have been genocided in USA since 1973, under orders of US Supreme Court at Bohemian Grove. For every baby killed, an adult must be murdered to balance Social Security, pension funds and insurance company profits.

Enforcing a license at gunpoint to steal our Constitutional rights is required to enforce the genocide, but killing the right to travel to buy food or work or escape zombie plagues.


Amish Buggy License Plates
http://j-walkblog.com/old/2004/02/16/index.html

Quote:


Illinois enacts license law for buggies

J.D. Wright
Daily Egyptian
11/17/05

Imagine a police officer calling in that he had just pulled over a brown quarter horse leading an old black buggy with the license plate number PHH 13987.

Now this can be possible. A new state law gives local officials the ability to tax and issue license plates for anyone with a buggy.

"I've never clocked a buggy," said Tim Shadwell, a police officer from Arcola. "They don't go very fast."

One reason the law was made an option for local law enforcers is that horses that draw buggies wear a type of horseshoe that tears up roads.

Even though it contradicts their whole lifestyle, Amish farmers seem to understand fully why they are being taxed.

"The horses seem to tear up the sides of the roads," said Conrad Wentzel, a Mennonite who works for the Illinois Amish Interpretive Center located in Arcola. "But everyone in the town is all right with the tax and they understand."

This is not the only law the Amish drivers had to face. About two decades ago, the Amish had to put a reflective triangle on the back of their buggies so that passing motorists would safely see them.

Illinois is just catching the trend of this law. Some counties in Indiana are required to have licenses on the back of their buggies. But the Amish in the town of Arcola do not seem to disagree with the law.

"The Amish bishop seems to feel positive about the whole experience," Wetzel said. "I know the Amish leaders of the town do too."

But does the license plate law in Illinois contradict the Amish way of life?

The Amish do wear homemade cloths and basically make everything they use. But the Amish are allowed to use modern technology under certain circumstances. For instance, if an Amish family owns a business, it is OK for them to have a phone, but the phone has to be outside the building, and they cannot have a phone in their home.

As for a car or motorized vehicle? Not likely. That is why they ride a horse and buggy.

But the license law helps to protect the safety and well being of the Amish community. Before, if someone got into an accident, the police would not know the person in the buggy or have any way to communicate with family members. With the licenses, police could scan the license and find out who exactly the person or persons are.

"I've dealt with buggies before, but only when they get into accidents. It's always with cars," Shadwell said. "As for the licenses on the buggies, it's a great idea."

http://newshound.de.siu.edu/online/stories/storyReader$5195



Constitutionally guaranteed God-given Natural right to travel without vehicle registration
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2009/03/constitutional-right-to-trav
el-without.html


Here's what you get for your taxdollars extorted by the Police State:

Quote:


Revisiting the Amish schoolhouse massacre: Passive police first responder policy — Who does it really protect?

Homicidal and suicidal psychopaths — Not the typical criminal

Fact: When a homicidal and suicidal predator enters an occupied school carrying a weapon, their murderous plan is now in motion and the outcome has a high probability of ending very badly.

The October 2nd, 2006 Amish schoolhouse massacre in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, is a textbook example showing how quickly and efficiently killing can commence in the presence of a closely established police containment perimeter.

The first notification of this developing massacre occurred after Roberts released everyone from the schoolhouse except ten young females. The teacher immediately ran to a neighboring farm and contacted 911. An Amish adult male from this farm, with his two large dogs, took the bold opportunity to stealthily approach the windowless back wall of the schoolhouse. Hoping for an opportunity to help the little girls, he slowly crept around one side of the wooden structure and positioned himself as an observer next to a side window. Upon reaching the double paned window, he noticed that the old-fashioned type blind was not pulled and this window was not barricaded.

Observing that the first police patrol vehicle to approach the scene was not slowing down to stop, the Amish man quickly withdrew from his strategic observational position and sprinted towards the roadway to wave down the trooper, who did a fast U-turn and parked. That would be the last successful attempt at an unnoticed move upon the building by anyone.

As unlikely as it sounds, Roberts may have been very surprised by the early arrival of police. The Amish are a passive and non-violent culture who often do not report crime or assist in criminal prosecutions. The items that this deranged individual brought into the schoolhouse were indicative that he expected to have a lengthy period of time to sexually molest these little girls.

Typical of armed school invaders, Roberts was steadily progressing towards the final chapter of his plan, mass murder then suicide. Not all patrol officers are taught that armed school invaders should immediately be considered and handled as weapons of mass destruction. The widespread use of the common descriptor "emotionally disturbed person" combined with the continued use of containment / negotiation tactics in the absence of active shooting confirms this obvious operational flaw.

More troopers arrived. A brave group of patrol officers formed-up and cautiously approached the schoolhouse. Roberts, obviously agitated, yelled for them to immediately leave or he would begin shooting. They partially complied with his demands by retreating, but not leaving. A police vehicle’s public address system was used to announce multiple pleas for him to throw out his weapons and come out with his hands up. Roberts again loudly ordered them to leave, or he would immediately shoot everyone.

Out of options

This psychopath had established full control and time was running out. The troopers on-scene sensed the tension and realized the girls’ situation was extremely precarious. Shooting could begin at any moment. SWAT takes a long time to arrive and this psychopath had shown absolutely no interest in negotiation. To make matters worse, the control of this volatile situation had seamlessly transitioned off-site command.

From this point forward any potential "window of opportunity" for resolution that could suddenly arise would need to be conveyed up the command chain for permission to react. Aggressive action against the intruder, short of hearing gunfire from within the school, would now take time and would require courage of leadership from a distant commander. Although all the troopers had been trained in "active shooter" procedures, they were not trained, authorized or equipped to conduct independent "Immediate Action Rapid Deployment" (IARD) tactics.

"Immediate Action Rapid Deployment" (IARD) is an underutilized concept in today’s policy heavy micromanaged patrol environment. This novel concept relies upon the officers on scene to use their ingenuity and courage to operate independently of off-site command and control during emergencies such as armed school invaders.

Homicidal and suicidal individuals kill fewer people while being hunted, pressured and pursued. Unable to focus full attention to the intended victims, the predators’ planned carnage is delayed by an active pursuit. When police ultimately close-in on a homicidal and suicidal individual, the predator usually rushes to commit suicide. Suicide by cop at this point sometimes occurs, but usually the ending is self-inflicted.

The longer this incident progressed, the higher up the chain of command the decision-maker was likely to be. More time was now required to make any decision, right or wrong — or worse yet, making no decision at all. The SWAT team was still a long way from Nickel Mines. Everyone but the psychopathic intruder was clearly out of options.

Before the shooting began, armed and ballistic shield equipped rescuers were mere yards away from the building. Yet they were immobilized by fear. Not the fear of being injured — these courageous troopers clearly proved when the shooting began that they had the stuff heroes are made of. The fear was traditional, institutional and political — originating at headquarters and administratively filtering down to the patrol level. Fear of failure, criticism and the potential for career damage all contribute to the establishment of passive public safety policy.

Timid command during times of crisis is easily hidden behind the fuzzy and noble label titled “officer safety concerns." Command indecision can be just as deadly as making a wrong decision. The results of making no decision offer the most political cover when a situation ends badly.

The specter of training-up and equipping patrol “cowboys” with the personal authority to run into schools with their “guns-blazing” gives heartburn to the toughest of career police administrators. Even when they know this is exactly the type of option that someday patrol may need to save innocent lives.

Everyone on scene hoped that the next wave of higher trained and better equipped officers would be arriving shortly. Although the armed and ready rescuers waiting outside were now being used as observers and conduits of information, they were still cocked and locked waiting for a command decision, or the sound of gunfire — whichever came first.

Permission denied

Suddenly and unexpectedly a child’s loud screaming was heard from within the schoolhouse. The rescuers immediately requested permission on the radio to approach the building. The answer to their urgent request came back -- permission denied.

Approximately twenty-five minutes after the first 911 call, a large anxious group of people was gathered nearby. More police personnel were arriving by the minute. In addition to the schoolhouse perimeter, troopers also manned an outer staging area to shield the already waiting medical personnel, worried friends and family from possible gunfire. County and state police dispatchers were desperately attempting to open a line of communication with Roberts to begin negotiations.

A Herculean effort to prevent injury or death to just one innocent sometimes results in the loss of many. This new breed of predator does not play by traditional rules. Negotiation, surrender and escape are not options. Time works in their favor.

The large "show of force” established just outside meant absolutely nothing to the psychopath in control on the inside. All that mattered to Roberts was completing his evil plan.

The massacre

The shooting began. Ten heroic troopers instantly reacted to the sound of rapid gunfire by bravely moving towards the building. Roberts, probably attempting to slow their progress, fired at least one round, and maybe more, in the direction of the rescuers.

As the first ballistic shield bearing trooper in line reached a window, the gunfire suddenly ended. The monstrous coward had predictably killed himself as these courageous troopers gained close proximity.

The final tally? All ten girls shot. Five killed instantly. One remains in a coma. And four girls, although disfigured, have thankfully fully recovered from their gunshot wounds. The prompt medical assistance and airlift capability prearranged by these selfless professionals was instrumental in saving the lives of five little girls.

Tears, awards and fear of future visitors

In the aftermath of the Amish schoolhouse massacre, state police representatives conduct seminars, reminding other law enforcement professionals that their officers heroically "did their best" and nothing more could have been done. They say it all happened way too fast. Roberts was a formidable and wily predator hell-bent on molesting and killing little girls and therefore was unstoppable. According to the rules of engagement on that fateful day, this is all true. He was unstoppable.

The massacre that occurred at the Amish schoolhouse was the fault of one deranged individual, Charles Carl Roberts, IV. Everyone else involved did their absolute best to save the lives of the schoolgirls. Heroism abounded and no one at the scene should ever be criticized for failure to perform as trained and expected. The fact that five girls survived is a testament to their efforts.

Recently, the ten troopers who had courageously approached the schoolhouse as wood splinters and bullets exploded off the exterior walls all received their department’s highest award for courage and bravery in the line of duty, the Medal of Honor.

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/tactical/ballistic-shields/ar
ticles/1290372-Revisiting-the-Amish-schoolhouse-massacre
/



ALL cops are cowards, which explains why they never arrest cops and politicians they eyewitness perping crimes.

Highlights archive cached for future generations.


www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/dial911anddie.htm

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:45 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Speakin of food...

Can any of you sciency-types make heads or tails of this one for me ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big
-fat-lie.html


It all sounds good, but I don't have the related background to know if they're fulla shit or not, and frankly it reads a little more like advertisement than research, so a "bullshit percentage" would be helpful here.

Just cause I don't buy the FDAs lies about what constitutes "healthy" (based on the ravings of known lunatic Everett Koop) doesn't mean imma buy someone elses just cause they *not* the FDA, that's a friggin boobytrap if there ever was one.

-F



Wow that's a long article. Only read the first page.

I know little to nothing about biology type stuff, but I tend to think that all of these restrictive diet plans are BS. "Eat only this and this and you'll be healthy..." Whatever. I eat what I crave, in moderation, and trust that years of evolution speak the truth. My body knows what it needs. It lets me know, I listen.

With the caveat that I tend to not trust cravings until the 2nd or 3rd pang. Years of advertising does fuck up the evolutionary wisdom, and though Taco Bell may momentarily look good on a commercial, I don't really want it.

Anyway, I think balance is key. Eat a bit of everything and exercise when you can. It really doesn't need to be more complicated. Making it more complicated fucks with the body's craving system, which I think is the basic problem for many people.

Well, that and the advertising telling us that food is happiness. That's a lie. Beer is happiness.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:46 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
F= Federal
D= Douchbag
A= Asswipes

Paid thugs & corporate sockpuppets.

Just my opinion.




Then what does BATF stand for ?

Some Folk are still misapprehending the facts on that one . Regarding the Davidian massacre at Waco in 1993 :

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And once they set themselves on fire, they WERE left alone.



'...Many people believe that David Koresh (or the Branch Davidians) were responsible for the deaths of the 74 men, women and children who died in the inferno at Waco on April 19, 1993. This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. These were law-abiding American citizens, even if they thought differently to most other folks. They trusted the U.S. Constitution to ensure their political rights, but they were murdered by agents acting under the authority of the U.S. government. Read this page if you believe otherwise. If you still have doubts, get the video Rules of Engagement for visual evidence. Or read the book Armageddon in Waco. Or see the film Waco: A New Revelation.

Waco occurred under the presidency of Bill Clinton, with Janet Reno and Wesley Clark in supporting roles. Already back in 1993 the US government demonstrated its contempt for the American people by carrying out a massacre in order to "demonstrate" (on prime time TV) its supposed "authority" (a tactic favored by fascist governments). Following the usurpation of the presidency in 2000 by the psychopath George W. Bush, and the subsequent installation of the insane John Ashcroft as Bush's Himmler, things became much worse. On 9/11 about forty times as many people were murdered as at Waco. In both cases the murderers have so far gone unpunished.

Few Americans realize that on February 28, 1993 when BATF agents in National Guard helicopters zoomed in on the Branch Davidians' church and home, Mount Carmel Center, they did so with guns blazing, like Americans raiding a Vietnamese village in that far off war. ... It is likely FBI agents deliberately sabotaged negotiations with Davidians to prevent their exiting Mount Carmel. Their goal was to destroy the building and its damaging evidence, even if that meant the massacre of dozens of men, women and children, all witnesses to the brutal attack. — Carol Moore: Overview of Davidian Massacre

After the February raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) of David Koresh's dissident religious community at Waco, Texas, the FBI and the U.S. Army took over, mounting a 51-day siege. This included such psy-war tactics as sleep deprivation of the inhabitants of the community by means of all-night broadcasts of recordings of the screams of rabbits being slaughtered.

Finally, despite David Koresh's pledge to surrender upon completion of his written explanation of the meaning of the Seven Seals, the FBI and the Army attacked. At dawn on April 19, 1993, and throughout the morning, tanks rammed holes in the main building and pumped (in the FBI's words) "massive amounts" of CS gas into the building, despite knowing that inside were more than a dozen children. The tanks demolished parts of the compound and created tunnels for the wind to blow through. The buildings at this point were saturated with inflammable CS gas and spilled kerosene.

Around midday two U.S. military pyrotechnic devices were fired into the main building, igniting a fire which (because of the holes in the walls allowing the wind to gust through) spread rapidly through the complex of buildings and became an inferno. 74 men, women and children died — including twelve children younger than five years of age. Fire trucks were prevented by the FBI from approaching the inferno. After the compound had burned down the BATF flag was hoisted aloft to signify 'victory'. Subsequently the burned-out ruin was razed in an attempt to remove all evidence of this premeditated murder of innocent civilians by agents of the U.S. government. Thus occured an atrocity which many Americans believe could never happen in their country. A look at the evidence presented in the film Waco: Rules of Engagement (and in the BBC documentary broadcast in the U.K. on November 28, 1998) shows that it did happen.

The lawyer for one of the survivors said at one of the U.S. government 'investigations' (or rather, whitewashes): In this country when people are accused of a crime they are arrested and given a trial — that's 'due process'. If found guilty of murder then maybe they are killed. We don't just kill them first — which is what happened at Waco.'

http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html

Oscar-nominated Emmy-winning Documentary Film , in 2 parts :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1755692679103175934#

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
My dad and I used to peasant hunt on their land too



Whut?!

Hey man, we NEED those peasants, mind your bag limit!


-F

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Whatever. I eat what I crave, in moderation, and trust that years of evolution speak the truth. My body knows what it needs. It lets me know, I listen.


Yanno, that's prettymuch what I been doin for years, despite admonishments from folks who supposedly "know better", most of whom I have outlived despite taking way more personal risks...
*shrug*
So here's to fish n chips with a pint of the usual, neh ?

-F

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:20 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
My dad and I used to peasant hunt on their land too



Whut?!

Hey man, we NEED those peasants, mind your bag limit!


-F



That was back in the days the government up here operated a hatchery, and released thousands of birds into the wild every year...

Once that was cut from the budget, we actually quit shooting em, but still went out to work our pointers on them.

Now days, my dad has about 3 on his land, and some ptarmigan... I like to take my lab out, she points beautifully, and is quite good about being called back off the pheasants. I let her flush the ptarmigan, always makes me jump when they take off... even if I know they are there. Something about that sound.



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It all sounds good, but I don't have the related background to know if they're fulla shit or not ..."

Full of it. Though what THE answer is, no one knows yet.

As SignyM pointed out, the food pyramid is not drawn up by scientists and dieticians - it's drawn up by people in agriculture who have a vested interest in you eating what they produce.

People PROBABLY evolved on the seashore. And people also spent a fair bit of time going hungry as well.

Our diet was mostly greens, seaweeds, shellfish, birds eggs (in season), insects, snakes, small fish from tidal pools etc.

By definition, this is a low carbohydrate, high fiber, high protein, high fat diet. HOWEVER, the fat isn't just any kind of fat. It's rich in the omega-3 fats (found in fish) and in active fats - like hormones, phospholipids etc. These fats are unlike the typical 'storage' fats found in grain-fed animals though we crave them in just the same way. (BTW, the primary reason why a consortium of scientists decided people evolved on the seashore is the requirement for a minimum of 1 gram of omega-3 fats per day for proper brain development and function. This fat is normally not found in necessary quantities in a land-based diet - unless you eat the bone-marrow of grass-fed ruminants in large quantities.)

There was a prospective 'shootout' of three diets: the American Heart Association calorie-restricted low-fat high-carb diet, the Mediterranean calorie-restricted diet, and a calorie-non-restricted Atkins-type diet.

The AHA diet fared not very well at all, people lost little or no weight, and didn't improve risk factors for eventual disease such as blood pressure, LDL cholesterol and glucose. On top of that it had the highest drop-out rate. Counter-intuitively considering the amount of carbs eaten, the Mediterranean diet, which features lots of whole grains, vegetables, lots of olive oil and little protein was best at reining in diabetes and pre-diabetes, and was a fair second-best at weight loss and number of people who stuck with it. The Atkins-type diet was overall best at weight loss and number of people who completed the study, and was best at controlling 'bad' lipids, again, counter-intuitively considering the amount of fats eaten.

While the Mediterranean diet has the most statistical evidence to show it's helpful in overall health and longevity, there are some things to remember about it.

Many of the benefits disappear when you factor in magnesium consumption, which comes in the whole grains. It seems that if you find another source of magnesium, you don't seem to need the whole grains. The fish-based version of the diet is superior to the land-based version. And, even if you eat animals and eggs rather than fish, you need to take into account that the animals themselves are eating a Mediterranean diet, which includes lots of greens and whole grains. That has an effect on the composition of the meat and eggs in terms of vitamins and fats.

If you are looking to lose weight (as I think you are not !) either diet is probably good.

The 'typical' American diet btw is rich in (unhealthy storage) fats, salt, and sugars (and easily digested carbs which are metabolized like sugar) - foods which have measurable effects on the 'reward' chemicals in your brain such as dopamine, serotonin and endogenous opioids. Dr David Kessler (The End of Overeating ...) makes a pretty good case that fast-foods have been empirically developed to trigger these neurochemical responses and, in effect, get you hooked on their foods.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

... the primary reason why a consortium of scientists decided people evolved on the seashore is the requirement for a minium of 1 gram of omega-3 fats per day for proper brain development and function. This fat is normally not found in necessary quantities in a land-based diet - unless you eat the bone-marrow of grass-fed ruminants in large quantities.
Really????

That's funny, bc that matches my assumptions about human evolution. I figured we learned how to use tools from smashing mussels, oysters etc with rocks... yanno, things that are slow, in an environment littered with stones... and that as we graduated inland we simply transferred our tool-using ability to smashing bones, acting in the ONE food niche (bone scavanger) that had no competition except hyenas.

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:29 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

'...Many people believe that David Koresh (or the Branch Davidians) were responsible for the deaths of the 74 men, women and children who died in the inferno at Waco on April 19, 1993. This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie.

Yeah, sadly fascism won out there.
Summary execution, big time.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
As SignyM pointed out, the food pyramid is not drawn up by scientists and dieticians - it's drawn up by people in agriculture who have a vested interest in you eating what they produce.


Yeah, that I did know, and have since the mid-80's.

And hell no on the losing weight thing, lmao, if anything I need to bulk up, been forgetting to eat lately since Alice and Wendy are out of town and there's no one to shove a plate in front of me while I'm otherwise too busy to remember.

I do appreciate the capsule explaination, which makes more sense than ten pages of gobbledegook which came across like an advert.

For whatever reason, the propaganda food pyramid didn't take with me any better than the rest of the intended programming, and I noticed over the years that my "unhealthy" diet seemed to work a hell of a lot better than their supposed "healthy" one - and then in later years learning about crap like Aspartame, MSG, HFCS, etc etc etc, kinda horrified me at what my already damaged health might have been had I been stupid enough to buy into it back then, yuck.

You really wanna hit the trifecta of death ?
Pancake syrup - basically flavored HFCS with a side order of MSG, and in a handy microwaveable plastic container to aid in leeching Bisphenol-A when you heat it... yiiiick.

Rather amuses me that the backlash has brought REAL maple syrup, in glass bottles, back onto the shelves, cause I was petty close to going out and finding a maple tree to pound a tap in myself!

-Frem
"The most redeeming quality of humankind is the ability to commit heresy."

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:26 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SignyM

The place where I read about the omega-3's in bone marrow as well as the biochemical properties of NON-depot fat is a book called 'The Fats of Life.'


Frem

OH - you're welcome.

I hope I was sufficiently clear that the people who are full of $#it are at the FDA !

I have read of three scientists who personally changed they way they eat as a result of a study they did. Once gave up HFCS (diabetes/ mercury), one gave up trans fats (stupid rats with bad memory who couldn't find their way through a maze OR remember it if their lives depended it), and the other started eating 1C of blueberries every day (rats, or mice, I forget which, that had their Alzheimer's reversed).

Ahh yes - the plastics problem. I was convinced of that many decades ago by a PhD candidate biochemist. Since then I've been using only glass and - sad to say - cans. I just recently (when you're as old as the hills as I am, that means a few years ago) learned about bisphenol A in cans. Sigh. Well one tries even if one can't always get it right.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

My dad and I used to peasant hunt on their land too,



I really, really, REALLY hope you meant PHEASANT.

Otherwise, Dick Cheney's got nothing on you.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 2:38 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

My dad and I used to peasant hunt on their land too,



I really, really, REALLY hope you meant PHEASANT.

Otherwise, Dick Cheney's got nothing on you.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde




lol I missed that......




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 17, 2010 3:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



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