Yes, it's been discussed here before. But this is something I truly, truly don't understand. What I saw in Afghanistan (where they call it the Chadri) h..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Opinion: Why I'm proud to wear the burqa

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, February 6, 2010 07:40
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1989
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, it's been discussed here before. But this is something I truly, truly don't understand. What I saw in Afghanistan (where they call it the Chadri) horrified me and I couldn't imagine anyone actually WANTING to live that way. For whatever reason, apparently some do, however:



Quote:

Oumkheyr is a French Muslim woman in her 40s. Of Algerian origin, she is divorced and has a daughter. She tells CNN why she's proud to wear the burqa, also known as the niqab or full veil, and what she thinks of the law proposed by the French government to ban the burqa. A French parliament report has called for a ban on the burqa in schools, hospitals, government offices and public transport.

(CNN) -- I wear the burqa for the simple reason that I am a Muslim and the Koran says that I must wear the full veil in order to be modest.

I am proud of my Muslim faith and my modesty. I am proud to follow God's law.

Nobody ever forced me to wear the full veil and I have been wearing it for around 10 years now.

In fact, very few of my friends actually wear one. There are, of course, situations in which some men force their wives or daughters to wear the burqa but, believe me, these cases are a very, very small minority.

For those of us who are believers, we just want to do God's will and live by the sacred text, so what any man says has nothing to do with that.

I am testament to that as I don't have a husband and I practice my religion freely, that's why I'm always shocked when people say it's the husband who forces his wife to wear a burqa.

It is actually the case that a lot of men in France do not wish their wives to wear the full veil because when they go out, they are insulted or attacked and their husbands don't want them to be put in that situation.

I first started wearing the full veil when I was a teenager but I stopped for a while because when you're young, you don't want to be set apart, you want to look like everyone else.

But later after seeing what was happening with terrorist attacks involving Muslims all over the world, I decided to become more conscious and find out more about my faith.

In the process, I found myself becoming more spiritual and decided to start wearing the burqa.

Now, my liberty is being threatened with this law proposed by the French government. If this law is passed, it will be a great injustice. It is very unfair that they are even considering this law.

Perhaps the French authorities are terrified that women will start dressing like this, despite evidence to the contrary.

Why am I, as a Muslim woman, targeted unfairly, when there are less than 2,000 of us in France who wear the burqa? Where is my freedom of clothing or expression?

France prides itself as a country that upholds the rights of man but where are my rights? Why am I not free to wear what I want?

Many cite security reasons because they can't tell who is under the veil. But myself and a lot of women who wear the burqa are always happy to identify ourselves when asked.

In the past, I have taken off my veil when it is asked of me -- as long as it's a woman who does it. My religion demands that I cover my face in front of any man who is not either my brother, father or husband.

I have been wearing the veil in France for years and it has never been a problem, I use public transport like everyone else and I've never had any problems.

Although, it can be quite strange when I'm on a bus for example and people say to me: 'You poor thing, we feel sorry for you.' And I wonder exactly why they feel sorry for me.

I'm very happy wearing the veil and it makes me spiritually fulfilled as I'm practicing my religion, so I don't really see it as anything to pity me for.

I really believe that France is scared of Muslims, which is the motivation for this law, but people shouldn't generalize as not all Muslims are the same.

Yes, some have done terrible things, but it is done in the name of man, never in the name of God. I, as a French Muslim woman, have nothing but love in my heart towards all people.

And whatever the outcome, if France succeeds in banning the veil on its streets, I will never take mine off. My freedom means a lot to me and if this law is passed, I would rather move to another country where I can worship in peace.

I obey the laws of God not the laws of man.

In Afghanistan, they wear a slightly different type, with mesh covering eyes and nose:

This is obviously a wedding chadri; imagine wearing this whenever you had to step outside, from the age of 13 on:





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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:08 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


what? You dont approve of another culture?!!

Say it ain't so!

Well, I guess... its only ok if its something YOU approve of...

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Think so, Frem? Think there's nothing religious about it in reality? Embracing abuse, is that what you mean? How incredibly sad...

Dear gawd, Wulfie, find something else to do with yourself. Today you are nothing but a waste of everyone's time.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


No really, explain why YOU don't like the burka.

"While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others."

Btw... anyone else notice this? lol Free speech, can't stop the signal.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Happily, thanks for finally contributing something on point: It separates a woman from everyone around her, just as a simple matter. It de-personalizes to an incredible degree, which is one way the Mullah's kept women from being treated as humans. It takes away a woman's enjoyment in clothing, stifles their independence, individuality and creativity.

But far more basic than that; it's hot and horribly dusty in Summer--remember 140-degree heat and a desert; it's heavy and horribly unweildy in Winter--remember heavy snowfall and a rainy season. It's cumbersome at the very least, drags in the dirt and wet, and once wet, aside from being heavy, sticks to the legs and makes walking difficult. It makes it hard to breathe, talk, see, reach out for or carry anything, catches on everything, and makes one's head sweat.

That enough for you? I lived among them, remember? I wore one a couple of times, but couldn't take it for long.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


There is many things in many religions I do not understand at all...

But I don't need to, religion, when it comes down to it is a leap of faith

If women choose to wear the burqa, it is their choice,

but where I draw the line is if they decide to leave their faith, they must be allowed to do so.

same with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc

you can't be forced into a leap of faith, no matter how hard all religions try to make you.


edit to add

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/world/europe/27briefs-Vatican.html

The Vatican: Book Says John Paul Flagellated Himself

By REUTERS
Published: January 26, 2010

Pope John Paul II flagellated himself regularly to imitate Christ’s suffering, according to a book published Tuesday by the Vatican official in charge of the process that could lead to the pope’s sainthood. The book says that John Paul, who died in 2005, engaged in a practice known as mortification, the self-infliction of pain in order to feel closer to God, whipping himself with a belt that he kept in his closet. The book also said that when he was a bishop, he often slept on the bare floor so he could practice self-denial and asceticism.






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 11:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Happily, thanks for finally contributing something on point: It separates a woman from everyone around her, just as a simple matter. It de-personalizes to an incredible degree, which is one way the Mullah's kept women from being treated as humans. It takes away a woman's enjoyment in clothing, stifles their independence, individuality and creativity.

But far more basic than that; it's hot and horribly dusty in Summer--remember 140-degree heat and a desert; it's heavy and horribly unweildy in Winter--remember heavy snowfall and a rainy season. It's cumbersome at the very least, drags in the dirt and wet, and once wet, aside from being heavy, sticks to the legs and makes walking difficult. It makes it hard to breathe, talk, see, reach out for or carry anything, catches on everything, and makes one's head sweat.

That enough for you? I lived among them, remember? I wore one a couple of times, but couldn't take it for long."

Who are you to judge that they shouldn't wear it?

I mean, according to somee, you are disrespectful to yourself and to your family by keeping your hair uncovered...

But hey.

Its only an issue if its something YOU dont agree with.

Same thing with the "cutting of the rose".

ITS NOT OUR PLACE TO JUDGE.

Why is that so hard for you to get?

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 11:14 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


But hey, I guess judging everyone based on their culture, creed, religion... ect is something that liberals are the only ones qualified for.

Cus you know... they are so omnipotent.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 11:31 AM

BYTEMITE


We can only help the people who ask us for help. "Cutting the rose," "burqas," maybe it's a little barbaric, maybe some women are forced into it, and that's horrible. But some women choose this.

So if you pass a law, how do you enforce it? If you pass a law, how do you prevent practices becoming more strict and savage in defiance to the law?

Change has to be a choice of the population subject to it, or it will be resisted and even set back the well-meaning intentions or "help."

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:03 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Guess the peanut gallery is waiting to reply until they know I wont be here... you know... the nuts always come out at night. lol

Btw,

Good response Byte.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Once again, you are unclear on what I tried to post. You obviously don't get it, Wulf. In Afghanistan, all the younger women and some of the older ones HATE the chadri. They are forced into it because of the culture, by the Mullahs, by the men. Do you really think most women would wear one by choice? If they CHOOSE to, I have no complaint...I said in the beginning it mystified me that this woman chose to. But that's neither here nor there; while accepting her decision--tho' mystified--my statements were about the chadri itself and how amazing I found it that a woman would choose to wear it.

It's a hideous thing, and wearing on in France or any Western country is a LONG cry from doing so in Afghanistan. I have little doubt this woman lives a far cry from the way the Afghan women do, and she has the CHOICE whether to wear a chadri or not...in Afghanistan, from age 13 forward, it is forbidden to be seen, as she said, by any male other than close family. She walks paved streets and a relatively mild climate, from what she wrote she has no concept of what it is to live in a chadri in the land where it is required.

I'm not disrespectful of the culture; I'm hateful of the fact that the Taliban has reinstated the chadri, which HAD been lifted, and that the women of Afghanistan are again FORCED (and yes, by husbands because the husbands would suffer if their wives were allowed to walk freely) into that horrible slavery.

It's not at all that I don't agree with it, or that I'm judging; it is how the younger generation of Afghan WOMEN feel. I speak for them, not for this woman, who is free to do as she pleases.

Why is that so hard for YOU to get?



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Wulf, you're the one who wants to force freedom on people at the point of a gun... or at least you have said so in the past. So, what's the diff?

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:32 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


And no, if by "peanut gallery" you mean me, I've been busy composing a post about the Bamyan Buddhas and their destruction, which someone else mentioned. I'm not locked into this thread, but I would get back here eventually.

Gawd, you are pathetic; you hurl the same invectives over and over and over again, the same invectives which have nothing to do with anything, the same judgments of what you misunderstood from the very start. Get some new material, Wulf!



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

ITS NOT OUR PLACE TO JUDGE.

Why is that so hard for you to get?




Even the "fags", as you call them?

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:43 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki,

"it is how the younger generation of Afghan WOMEN feel. I speak for them, not for this woman, who is free to do as she pleases"

You... do... not... have... the... right... to... speak.. for .... them.

How would you feel if some Afghan woman were to say to you... "I think its terrible that you walk around uncovered, and use your mouth to speak to a man in any way other than respectfully"...

Of course you wouldn't like it... being raised in the 'West" you feel it is your right to say whatever you want. No matter how foolish, ill-advised, unwanted, or unjustified tho it may be.

But YET, you presume to force YOUR beliefs on another culture and people... by laying your "judgment" on them.

Again, the hypocrisy of liberals and hippies is apparent and mind-numbing.


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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:47 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Look, idjit, I LIVED THERE, remember? I KNEW AFGHANS and I STILL HAVE AFGHAN FRIENDS! I can tell you quite plainly, tho' you seem determined not to hear, that the majority of Afghan women, and almost every YOUNG Afghan woman, hated the chadri and were quite happy to say so to us when we lived there, and the people I know now are quite forthright that they HATE that the chadri has been reinstated.

I know you didn't pay attention to it, but I've posted about how my mother was instrumental in helping when the shah at that time worked to remove the damned thing. She got two pattern companies from America to send sewing machines, patterns, etc., and she gave sewing lessons, at the end of which (despite death threats from the Mullahs) they were tickled to hold a fashion show.

GET IT??? I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! Shees...

And I DO have the right to speak for them, asshole: http://www.rawa.org/help.htm URGES ME TO! Ask Frem, he knows even more about them than I do, but one of the things on the first page of their website is, among other things:
Quote:

You can --

* uaise awareness on the plight of Afghan women.

* urge different institutions in your area to invite RAWA representative to speak on the situation of Afghan women and RAWA efforts, to inform people about women’s rights tragedy in Afghanistan.

* give coverage to reports on Afghanistan and Taliban crimes in your publications, or somehow make people in your community aware of them. Write articles and letters to major media of your town and country.

* urge celebrated personalities of your country to raise their voice in support of RAWA and Afghan women and urge their government not to support the Taliban or any other fundamentalist group in Afghanistan.



Frem, where are you when we need you?

Additionally: If any woman of any culture were to say what you suggested to me, I'd happily tell her that's my culture's ways, and no, I wouldn't be offended at all; she's' entitled to her opinion, but I'm free to do as I please. Afghan women ARE NOT! Anyone's opinion is their right, but I'm not expressing an opinion, I'm stating FACT.

Stop throwing your fucking judgments around unless you fucking know what the fuck you're talking about! There now; I've let your ignorance get to me. Time to let you fume on your own, tho' I'm sure you'll never apologize and will no doubt now run away.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 2:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Guess the peanut gallery is waiting to reply until they know I wont be here... you know... the nuts always come out at night. lol





Yeah, some of us have actual jobs that we have to go to, and can't get to the computer at certain times of the day... Call me nuts for wanting to keep working, crazy ol' me!

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 2:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Niki,

"it is how the younger generation of Afghan WOMEN feel. I speak for them, not for this woman, who is free to do as she pleases"

You... do... not... have... the... right... to... speak.. for .... them.





I get that your mind is completely numb, Wulfboy, but why is it that you think YOU have the right to speak for anybody? You claim to be doing what you do for OUR benefit, but who the fuck asked ya? Where do you get off trying to speak for ANY of us?

Quote:


How would you feel if some Afghan woman were to say to you... "I think its terrible that you walk around uncovered, and use your mouth to speak to a man in any way other than respectfully"...

Of course you wouldn't like it... being raised in the 'West" you feel it is your right to say whatever you want. No matter how foolish, ill-advised, unwanted, or unjustified tho it may be.



So now you're speaking for Niki, and telling her how she should act and feel? Speaking of foolish, ill-advised, and unwanted... that pretty much covers your whole act, doesn't it?

Quote:

But YET, you presume to force YOUR beliefs on another culture and people... by laying your "judgment" on them.


As do you. Or do you find "Don't ask, don't tell" to NOT be judgmental? You love having the right to ask others to keep their lives secreted away, so you don't have to deal with the icky things you don't approve of, don't you? What about that attitude is NOT "laying your judgment on them"?

Quote:


Again, the hypocrisy of liberals and hippies is apparent and mind-numbing.



Yes, we've already established that your mind is very numb, and incapable of absorbing new facts. It's your hypocrisy that's on display here. Niki said she didn't see how these women wear their burqas and chadris, and that she couldn't do it. I didn't see her anywhere saying they shouldn't be allowed to do so, or that they should be outlawed. Did you read the same post I was reading, or were you going off one of those batshit-crazy voices you hear in your head when you're not busy sitting in the corner eating your own knees?




Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 2:43 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Niki said she didn't see how these women wear their burqas and chadris, and that she couldn't do it. I didn't see her anywhere saying they shouldn't be allowed to do so, or that they should be outlawed. Did you read the same post I was reading, or were you going off one of those batshit-crazy voices you hear in your head when you're not busy sitting in the corner eating your own knees?


That's... A really good point, now that I think about it, Niki didn't say she didn't think they should be allowed, just that she was surprised people are willing to wear them.

It's a tricky thorny issue. Where do we draw the line into people rights to practice beliefs when beliefs can be abusive? How can we enforce anything?

Also, I have to admit, I did laugh at the knees eating thing, then I felt bad imagining some fluffy woodland creature caught in a bear trap gnawing off it's own leg.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 3:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Also, I have to admit, I did laugh at the knees eating thing, then I felt bad imagining some fluffy woodland creature caught in a bear trap gnawing off it's own leg.



Byte, if you laughed, I succeeded. But I think you misunderstood my imagery; I meant Wulfie would be cowering in a corner of his bedroom, kneeled down in the corner, almost in a fetal position, chattering teeth leaving little white crescent-shaped indentations in his shaking knees.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 3:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Man if they wanna wear that thing, up to them, but pushin it on those who don't at the point of a gun is just bullshit.

Course, I am doin my part to scare the everliving crap out of em about it - that imam I freaked out by exploiting his blind spot says I have "troubled his dreams for all eternity" cause NOW he wonders just who might be under one, what they might be up to, and it's workin his nerves real bad.

Which was my ENTIRE point of it, given that you can hide a veritable arsenal of recording equipment, or even less nice things, under one, and there's no guarantee that's even a girl under there, is it now ?

That's kinda my plan for the moment, to put them bastards in a position where they either have to give up on the notion of forcing it on the women, or never feel safe EVER again.

If you WANT to wear something like that, *shrug*, I think it odd, but you shouldn't HAVE to, oh hell no.

-F

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 4:00 PM

FREELANCERTEX


This is really late in the conversation, but I figured since it was related to the topic, I'd share for those who wish to read it:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/a/3171/?utm_source=Ode+Newsletters&utm_
campaign=bf9ca7274b-daily-rss&utm_medium=email





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Thursday, February 4, 2010 7:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
But hey, I guess judging everyone based on their culture, creed, religion... ect is something that liberals are the only ones qualified for.

Cus you know... they are so omnipotent.



Every time we open our mouths we make judgments, about what we think is right or wrong, what we condone and what we condemn. Why should this be any different?

Niki has her opinion, she is entitled to air it. This is Real World discussion where we give our views on things, isn't it?

I'm sure the Afghani's have plenty of judgments on our culture as well.

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Friday, February 5, 2010 8:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Excellent article; in its way, it speaks to what Wulf was trying to say, and on THAT point I agree with him. I, too, believe arrogance and racism when thinking one knows what’s best for another of a different culture is reprehensible. You might notice that I always said “many Afghan women and almost all YOUNG Afghan women”. I did so specifically; the older generation (at this point MUCH older, as the chadri was already lifted before) would be horribly uncomfortable if forced to remove the chadri. It would be a terrible thing to do to them.

Quote:

If a Muslim woman doesn’t ask you to be her voice or speak for her, don’t. If you wish to help a Muslim woman you feel is voiceless, help her get a voice. Never assume you have the right to speak on someone else’s behalf.
That’s part of why I was so pissed at Wulf. Twice I told (or thought I told) him that I knew what I was talking about from an Afghan point of view, but he kept “hearing” that I was trying to impose my values ON them.

With this I do take SOMEWHAT of an issue:
Quote:

Don’t demonize my faith or my culture or the men in my life, no matter what I say about them, no matter how bad my experiences have been or how I complain: they are my experiences to sort out, and no one else’s. Keep in mind that patriarchy is a worldwide phenomenon, and it will manifest itself differently for me than it will for others. I may experience very patriarchal forms of Islam, while my sister may not.
The “no matter how bad my experiences have been or how I complain”. I disagree with that; I think if someone asks for help, it’s reasonable to give it. Obviously if someone complains in the heat of the moment, that may not be how they feel overall, but I refuse to stand by and see someone abused if they want help.
Quote:

Help only if I ask for it. By help, I do not mean co-opting my liberation and planning it out for me; I mean helping me get where I want to go, wherever that is. If a Muslim woman wants to leave an abusive relationship, don’t tell her that marriage in Islam is (insert your opinion here), help her find a divorce lawyer and safe shelter.

Being an ally is the same as being a true friend: respecting my wishes, even if you may want something different for me; helping me when I need it, without thinking me helpless; and viewing me as an entire person.

YES!

Actually, it speaks to America’s problems with the world, especially countries we have invaded or tried to “help”. We go in knowing nothing of the culture and impose our values on them. As I said elsewhere, if ONLY we would take the time to educate ourselves about the culture, and then went in with respect, rather than the arrogance of believing they’re all “victims” and only we know what’s right for them, you’d be amazed at the different way the world thinks about us (not that we’re alone in this!) and what might have happened in Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc.

Wonderful article, Free; I wish all Americans could read it (those who give a damn, anyway).

As to Wulf’s
Quote:

But hey, I guess judging everyone based on their culture, creed, religion... ect is something that liberals are the only ones qualified for.
IF we judged others based on THEIR culture, etc., tho’ I don’t like the word “judged”—maybe “viewed” or “dealt with”—that’s what I’m talking about with America. If we even just took the time and energy to TRY and learn. . . sigh.

Anyway, as Frem can tell you, RAWA is comprised of Afghan (it’s “Afghan” love, not “Afghani”—that’s the currency! ) women who DO want help and understanding. As for those for whom the Muslim faith is a pillar and who choose to abide by even it’s strictest aspects, that is their right. It’s also my right to find a woman OUTSIDE Afghanistan who wants to, someone who’s never experienced the actual life within a poverty-ridden, restricted Muslim society where she has to deal with dust, rain, dirt, etc. and doesn’t have the option of how to live her life, I also have the right to wonder just what the chadri and Islam mean to her and what might be her subconscious, unrecognized motivation—NOT that it makes her choices any less valid, I just have the right to wonder.

Hooo, boy, now you’ve got me started on another subject to offer as education for our Western mentality. It’s coming.



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Friday, February 5, 2010 8:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But hey, I guess judging everyone based on their culture, creed, religion... ect is something that liberals are the only ones qualified for.
THIS from one of the most judgemental people here. Huh.

And you think you're fighting for intellectual freedom? What would you know about intellect, anyway?


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Friday, February 5, 2010 11:18 AM

FREELANCERTEX


Quote:

Quote:

Do not demonize my faith or my culture....may not
Originally posted by Niki2: I disagree with that; I think if someone asks for help, it’s reasonable to give it...

I read that passage differently. I read it as she was telling the audience not to make assumptions based on her complaints about 'bad' experiences. A 'bad' experience may be an annoyance, or a problem she has with a particular aspect of her culture; no one's culture/relationship/religion is perfect, and we all have complaints about our repsective situations, but Islam may be more highly targeted because of all the negative information available, which may skew one's interpretation of a complaint or gripe. It didn't sound like she was saying "don't help me even if I ask for help," but I may have misread your statement or hers or both.

However, what I think she might also be *implying* is "If you hear me talk about my experiences, don't automatically assume I'm in a terrible situation and resolve to help me. Ask me." Again, I could be completely missing what she was trying to say, but that's how it read to me.

Quote:

if ONLY we would take the time to educate ourselves about the culture
That's exactly why I took cultural anthropology, and world religions (which is the class that article came from). I think world cultures should be an integral part of primary and secondary school to increase understanding of the world outside our own and decrease preconceived, ignorant bias based on arrogance and negative ethnocentricities.


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Friday, February 5, 2010 11:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by freelancertex:
Quote:

Quote:

Do not demonize my faith or my culture....may not
Originally posted by Niki2: I disagree with that; I think if someone asks for help, it’s reasonable to give it...

I read that passage differently. I read it as she was telling the audience not to make assumptions based on her complaints about 'bad' experiences. A 'bad' experience may be an annoyance, or a problem she has with a particular aspect of her culture; no one's culture/relationship/religion is perfect, and we all have complaints about our repsective situations, but Islam may be more highly targeted because of all the negative information available, which may skew one's interpretation of a complaint or gripe. It didn't sound like she was saying "don't help me even if I ask for help," but I may have misread your statement or hers or both.

However, what I think she might also be *implying* is "If you hear me talk about my experiences, don't automatically assume I'm in a terrible situation and resolve to help me. Ask me." Again, I could be completely missing what she was trying to say, but that's how it read to me.

Quote:

if ONLY we would take the time to educate ourselves about the culture
That's exactly why I took cultural anthropology, and world religions (which is the class that article came from). I think world cultures should be an integral part of primary and secondary school to increase understanding of the world outside our own and decrease preconceived, ignorant bias based on arrogance and negative ethnocentricities.





Yeah, I think you've got the gyst of it, Free. My wife says that when she's complaining about things, she's NOT looking for me to solve her problems, just to let her vent a little. I take this woman's words as the same kind of indicator. I don't assume she NEEDS my help, but am happy to offer if she does. The best response would probably be something along the lines of "Can I help?" or "Is there anything I can do?", OR just lending a sympathetic ear. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone's problems is let them unload them on you, if only to take the burden off them for a bit.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Friday, February 5, 2010 1:26 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


" That's exactly why I took cultural anthropology, and world religions (which is the class that article came from). I think world cultures should be an integral part of primary and secondary school to increase understanding of the world outside our own and decrease preconceived, ignorant bias based on arrogance and negative ethnocentricities. "


While my educational background is not the same, I do believe when you consider any cultural or social problem on any scale first you need to put yourself ( even mentally ) in the shoes of the people you are talking about.


Once you see things from the other guys point of view, then its a discussion... you can find the common ground that can lead to compromises.

Unfortunately, the way its been lately... people go in and dictate to others, then back that up with threats and posturing. I think that has become a cultural norm, and an unfortunate one at that, as it does not build respect or partnership... just ill will.

My view of history, every class in it I have taken focused on know the date this happened, or who was there when... it loses the more important why did this person think or do that, what drove the situation to this point or that. Looking at this this way takes much of the luster off many historical figures, but also cuts things down into lessons which are quite applicable today.

Understand where a person is coming from, and why before interjecting yourself

Does that fit in with what you are all saying here?






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, February 5, 2010 2:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, Gino - it fits.

And it was always easier for me to remember WHEN something happened, if I first had the context for WHAT was happening, and WHY. Then the WHEN of it just becomes ingrained in the stuff you know, and you don't have to struggle to remember the dates.

But all the teachers and professors want to teach anymore is the WHEN of it, and very rarely the WHY.

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Friday, February 5, 2010 5:09 PM

FREELANCERTEX


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni: While my educational background is not the same, I do believe when you consider any cultural or social problem on any scale first you need to put yourself ( even mentally ) in the shoes of the people you are talking about.
Very true, and it's a very hard thing to do if you've never been in a similar situation, whether personally or culturally.

Kwicko: I can't disagree on any particular point, in either post :)


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Saturday, February 6, 2010 7:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Free, that's what I meant to say woth
Quote:

Obviously if someone complains in the heat of the moment, that may not be how they feel overall
Women bitch about husbands, men bitch about wives; it might be a thing of the moment.

You got it exactly right. And BIG kuddos to you for self-education; were that we were all that way.

I know it was only done by the rich, but another thing I envied Britain for was--I forget what they called it--that thing where once out of uni, young men traveled the Continent for a year or more before entering the working force. It gave them at least a TASTE of other cultures. I wish everyone had to (and could afford to!).

Tho' maybe not such a bad thing that the rich did so, since they went on to run the government. Not that it did that much good, I just like the concept...

I was incredibly lucky, I know, that I was hoisted overseas by dad's employment (which, by the way, was a move companies took which was the equivalent to "being sent to Siberia", usually once returned, they were "retired"--dad was). I was exposed to so much, and in the manner of having to LIVE there, not just as a tourist, it somehow made me never forget that other cultures deserve my respect because I can't know everything and shouldn't judge them. It was pure happenstance, but from it I have always believed that if everyone could travel to a culture very different from theirs, even for say six months, the world would be SUCH a better place!

I disagree, tho', Mike, as to asking if one can help. In those moments, a woman might well ask for the help, when at a calmer moment, she might well regret it. And one would have to be careful about "helping" as something spoken in anger could end up cutting her off from her family and entire society. Lending an ear would be my choice, and if it she seemed truly upset many times, depending on what she was upset about, THEN would I ask if I could help. It's usually pretty easy to discern what's bitching and what's a serious situation, yes?

Quote:

it loses the more important why did this person think or do that, what drove the situation to this point or that. Looking at this this way takes much of the luster off many historical figures, but also cuts things down into lessons which are quite applicable today.
Absolutely, Gino; I've long wished that were so. Human motivation and mentality can be so complex, few "heroes" are that alone, and we tend not to be taught that, or the idea of looking beyond the obvious.




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