Okay, so I LIKE it...while I wouldn't mind them splitting the Repubs enough for the Dems to get a supermajority, or at least not lose many seats (!), I'd..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fractures emerge as Tea Party convenes

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, February 4, 2010 13:55
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VIEWED: 655
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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, so I LIKE it...while I wouldn't mind them splitting the Repubs enough for the Dems to get a supermajority, or at least not lose many seats (!), I'd love to see more centrist Repubs with the power, not these nutwings:
Quote:

As the Tea Party's first national convention gets under way, members are united in their anger but divided over the future of the movement.

The convention is marketed as an opportunity to bring Tea Party leaders from across the country together to network and support the movement's goals. But some see the high-ticket convention, organized by a for-profit organization, as contradictory to the group's bottom-up, grass-roots beginnings.

Tennessee Rep. Marsha Blackburn and Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann were supposed to speak at the convention, but both dropped out, citing problems with the for-profit status of the Tea Party Nation, the group behind the event. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is the convention's keynote speaker.

The Tea Party developed last year in protest to what its supporters saw as overspending in Washington -- by both Republicans and Democrats -- following the stimulus bill, the bank bailouts and President Obama's budget.

The anger over alleged fiscal irresponsibility in Washington was shared by a wider spectrum of voters, including independents, said John Avlon, author of "Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe is Hijacking America."

Over the year, the Tea Party grew from dozens to hundreds of loosely linked groups around the country.



Video: Tea party trouble

Video: Tea Party showdown in Florida But as it expanded, the protests became more partisan in nature, and the Tea Party established itself as an uprising to the right of the Republican Party. While independent voters were reacting against the polarization of the two major parties, the Tea Partiers wanted Republicans and Democrats to become more polarized, Avlon said.

"What happened over the course of the summer as the town hall [meetings] got hijacked, you started to see a new kind of activist taking over the Tea Party movement," Avlon said. "As the fringe has blurred with the base, you've seen more unhinged attacks proliferate, and there still hasn't been a transition to a positive agenda."

Some Tea Party members began directing their anger at Obama, calling him a socialist and carrying posters with his face altered to resemble Hitler or The Joker.

Special coverage: Welcome to the Tea Party

While the more radical activists made headlines, the voices of frustrated voters -- inside and outside the Tea Party -- were being heard across the country. The White House said Republican Scott Brown's win in last month's Massachusetts Senate election was "a wake-up call." While Brown captured the support of the Tea Party, he also won over the state's independent voters.

In November, Tea Party groups received credit for affecting the outcome of a special election for New York's 23rd Congressional District. Local Republican leaders backed state Assemblywoman Dede Scozzafava because they thought she would appeal to centrists and independents. But more conservative party members revolted and instead backed Doug Hoffman, who ran on the Conservative Party line.

Scozzafava dropped out days before the race and endorsed Bill Owens, the Democratic candidate and eventual winner. The split among Republicans contributed to Owens' win.

Curtis Gans, director of the Committee for the Study of the American Electorate at American University, pointed to that election as an example of how the Tea Party's support for more conservative candidates could hurt Republicans in the upcoming elections.

"If the 'birthers' [those who say Obama wasn't born in the U.S.] and the Tea Party people win most of the primaries in the Republican Party, that may not yield as much of a Republican victory in the general election as if their more moderate elements win," he said.

As the primary season begins, Tea Partiers disagree about where the movement is heading. Rival factions are battling over who will carry the Tea Party banner. Some members worry powerful groups are "astroturfing" what they think should remain a grass-roots group.

"I don't think the Tea Party knows what's happening to the Tea Party," Sacramento party activist Jim Knapp said. "I don't think there's any question the GOP has their tentacles into the Tea Party."

Mark Meckler and Jenny Beth Martin, founders of the Tea Party Patriots, say they are proud of what the movement has accomplished, but they are frustrated that other Tea Party groups are being run by Republican political consultants forking over lots of cash for recruitment.

The Tea Party Express, a conservative bus tour that crisscrossed the country last year, was run from inside a Republican political consulting firm.

This week's convention has also been dogged by infighting, with some protesting its $549 entrance fee and its hierarchical organization.

Meckler and Martin are not going to attend. "It wasn't the kind of grass-roots organization that we are, so we declined to participate," Meckler said.

Avlon said the concerns over the proceeds have undercut the event's attempt to be a rallying point.

"They like to compare themselves to the founding fathers. Well, imagine if John Hancock was trying to make a buck off the constitutional convention," he said.

Right now, Avlon said, the Tea Party groups are trying to flex their muscle and move the Republican Party further to the right.

But the unanswered questions are where that takes the Tea Party and how it affects the GOP in the long term.

"If it helps focus the Republican Party on a core message of a return to fiscal conservatism, which it abandoned when it had unified control of Congress ... then I think that can help strengthen the party's commitment to that core unifying issue," Avlon said.

"But if it just empowers the extremes in the party, then I think when extremes control parties, when wingnuts hijack a political party -- ultimately, they take it off a cliff."

Damn straight!





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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Keep wishing.


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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nonsensical response. If you've nothing of value to add to the discussion, find something where you DO. Or not...



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


.... and if you have nothing more than some somnambulist, lefty, puppet theater wishing that there wasn't a real movement happening...

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA


.... and if you have nothing more than some knee-jerk reactive, rightwingnut, puppet theater wishing that there WAS a real movement happening...

-F

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good one, Frem. But any other ADULTS want to discuss this? I find it very interesting to have seen the progress from grassroots movement to convenient co-option by others.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Yeah, Frem... Mr "Propaganda Minister for Anarchy"

Go paint your nails black, whinge about how noone recognizes YOUR movement.. instead of joining folks who want to do something SIMILAR to what you want...

Yeah, great plan.

Good job. No really. Im sure you guys have done SOMETHING.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually it wasn't initially grass roots, it was initially astroturf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
Thing is, a lotta pissed off folk jumped on cause they thought it would give their concerns a voice, not all of whom realized quite who/what they were climbin into bed with.

And suddenly she dun look so pretty in the morning light, don't ya know...

ETA: Go hide back under your rock, Wulfie, you wanna talk that kinda shit, might try talkin it to folk who haven't accomplished anything real, and you can start with a mirror, cause platitudes accomplish not a damn thing, and frankly that's ALL you got - I showed you EXACTLY how to start making an impact in explicit step by step detail complete with common mistakes to avoid and where all that money goes, what to look for, chapter and verse - and you went off, took one look at the enormity of the task before you, and wussed out like a fuckin pansy, went and hid under a rock and prolly cried like a baby cause it was too hard and you might need allies, instead of being mister mighty hero, and your goddamn attitude has likely alienated anyone who ever mighta worked with you about it, so then you cuddled up to your treasured ignorance and tried to wish it all away, cause you couldn't fuckin hack it, and you got the nerve to throw shit at me like a public zoo monkey cause YOU ain't got no balls when the chips come down ?

PUH-Leeze, kid, grow the fuck up, or shut the fuck up.

-F

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


ooooo... struck a nerve there Fremy?

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, little tiny dick, I think he's just sick to death of you spouting off at the mouth and having nothing to actually say. It gets to some of us sometimes; it's such a waste of time to read, and gets in the way of actual discussion. It's no surprise it gets to Frem, who was your only champion and put so much effort into trying to help you. You seem to think you've struck a nerve when someone gets utterly disgusted with your childish tactics and blows up at you. Don't give yourself so much credit; most everyone gets pissed eventually at children who make irritants of themselves.

You have nothing to say, but apparently have nothing to DO in your life anyway, and right now are acting exactly like a troll. Completely eliminates any credibility you might claim.

If one cared, one might think you'd been knocked down in the last few attempts to enter a conversation, so were resorting to nothing but the name calling and idiocy you sometimes do. If one cared. Go away.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Thing is, a lotta pissed off folk jumped on cause they thought it would give their concerns a voice, not all of whom realized quite who/what they were climbin into bed with.
Yeah, I know; it's a damned shame, but they're having JUST enough influence to scare moderate Repubs, and that pisses ME off.




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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh boy howdy, what a SURPRISE.

Anyone want to place bets on which part of the "split" gets discredited? Use 'em up, toss 'em aside. Politics as usual. "Progress" marches on.

Niki, you seem to be under the impression that things that happen in politics have any bearing whatsoever in policy. Think about it, there's people genuinely unhappy here about the way things are going, people who don't think stuff like "OMG! Obama is an Aliens from MARS!" or "don't touch my medicare!" but stuff like "You're going to make us all PAY the health insurance industry for not providing a service? Uhh... Let's go with a 'no' vote on that one."

They're about to be discarded by the neocons who have been pulling the movement's strings like ragdolls.

I'm glad you caught yourself here, but that first post of yours was basically just "Yay! The Democrats might win a few seats over this!" I don't think you're an idealogue, but Niki, you GOT to shake yourself out of thinking along party lines. Parties don't help anyone but themselves, and you're just setting yourself up for attack from more partisan board members rather than setting up a discussion.

You're also setting yourself up in much the same manner as the people who joined the tea party movement, and the only way to not get the rug yanked out from under you is to not play either game.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


lol

The problem is that what I say does have clout... and echoes too.

However, it isn't what you agree with... and that is what pisses you off.

The idea of a free, armed, intelligent, awakened people... who don't take shit from anyone for anything, scares you. Cus, of course it would.

So, no. I won't go away. I won't stop fighting for the intellectual, ideological, and total freedom of people.

Free to speak, free to act, free to think and believe as they wish.

Even if it offends. ESPECIALLY if it offends.

ETA: Free to go their own way.


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Thursday, February 4, 2010 12:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
lol

The problem is that what I say does have clout... and echoes too.

However, it isn't what you agree with... and that is what pisses you off.

The idea of a free, armed, intelligent, awakened people... who don't take shit from anyone for anything, scares you. Cus, of course it would.

So, no. I won't go away. I won't stop fighting for the intellectual, ideological, and total freedom of people.

Free to speak, free to act, free to think and believe as they wish.

Even if it offends. ESPECIALLY if it offends.

ETA: Free to go their own way.





Why would the idea of ME scare me, exactly? I'm free, armed, and fairly intelligent, and I'm generally awake at least 18 hours a day. So what is it I'm supposed to be scared of again? YOU, Wulfie? Please. You're not even a drop of piss on the bathroom floor, not even worth a look nor a mention.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
lol

The problem is that what I say does have clout... and echoes too.

However, it isn't what you agree with... and that is what pisses you off.

The idea of a free, armed, intelligent, awakened people... who don't take shit from anyone for anything, scares you. Cus, of course it would.

So, no. I won't go away. I won't stop fighting for the intellectual, ideological, and total freedom of people.

Free to speak, free to act, free to think and believe as they wish.

Even if it offends. ESPECIALLY if it offends.

ETA: Free to go their own way.





You don't even SLIGHTLY speak "for the intellectual, ideological, and total freedom of people"--you're hysterical, Wulf!

Mike is right:



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:09 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oh boy howdy, what a SURPRISE.

Anyone want to place bets on which part of the "split" gets discredited? Use 'em up, toss 'em aside. Politics as usual. "Progress" marches on.

Niki, you seem to be under the impression that things that happen in politics have any bearing whatsoever in policy. Think about it, there's people genuinely unhappy here about the way things are going, people who don't think stuff like "OMG! Obama is an Aliens from MARS!" or "don't touch my medicare!" but stuff like "You're going to make us all PAY the health insurance industry for not providing a service? Uhh... Let's go with a 'no' vote on that one."

They're about to be discarded by the neocons who have been pulling the movement's strings like ragdolls.

I'm glad you caught yourself here, but that first post of yours was basically just "Yay! The Democrats might win a few seats over this!" I don't think you're an idealogue, but Niki, you GOT to shake yourself out of thinking along party lines. Parties don't help anyone but themselves, and you're just setting yourself up for attack from more partisan board members rather than setting up a discussion.

You're also setting yourself up in much the same manner as the people who joined the tea party movement, and the only way to not get the rug yanked out from under you is to not play either game.



If the republicans broke into two, and that resulted in the dems winning a superpower type position would be a bad thing. Unchecked power, in my experience never turns out well.

Mind you if they split, and pulled a pile of supporters out of the dems to form a party of the center...

then you would have the far right, the far left, and a new party in the middle that would have a very good chance of not only surviving, but winning too.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, as it happens I agree with you on almost every point. Right now, I'd rather see the Dems in control because I DO believe the nutwings of the Tea Party (or who's behind them) can influence policy. If they do, we're in worse shape than we were under Dumbya. That's the only single reason I'd rather see them in (more) control.

Politics has a bearing on policy; the last eight years stand as the best illustration I can think of where that's concerned. I think the Tea Partiers represent a danerous force only in that they can pull the Republicans more to the right, which I don't think we need at ALL!

I don't love the Dems and I'm not blind about them, either. Right now the hard-core far right worries me more. Period.



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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:19 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
lol

The problem is that what I say does have clout...



HA!

Quote:

and echoes too.


Thus the term echo chamber....

Quote:

However, it isn't what you agree with... and that is what pisses you off.


Nah, disagree all ya like. It's your bigoted violence mongering I despise.

Quote:

The idea of a free, armed, intelligent, awakened people... who don't take shit from anyone for anything, scares you. Cus, of course it would.


Intellegence doesn't seem to be high amongst this group, who latches onto every Fox pundit talking point regardless of validity. This has been shown many times over.

Quote:

So, no. I won't go away. I won't stop fighting for the intellectual, ideological, and total freedom of people.


You mean, white conservative people, preferably men.

Quote:

Free to speak, free to act, free to think and believe as they wish.

Even if it offends. ESPECIALLY if it offends.

ETA: Free to go their own way.




There I agree. But I doubt your honesty, since you seem to wish violence on those who don't agree with you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:34 PM

BYTEMITE


You don't think we'd have gone to war in Afghanistan or Iraq? You don't think we'd have had the Patriot Act?

Let me think, how many Senators voted against the Patriot Act? Oh right. Just one. Russ Feingold.

How many voted for The Iraq War? Let's see. Only 42% of Democrats in Congress voted against the Iraq War resolution. Only 1 Republican voted against it. Only 1 Independent voted against it (though there's not many of them in the first place).

Afghanistan? Only one person in all of Congress voted against it, Barbara Lee.

So... Hey, look! We would have gone no matter WHO was in office! The party lines didn't matter when it came down to VOTING, it only matters on election years or when both parties are trying to smear each other!

So maybe, just MAYBE, what they say and what they DO is completely different! In all likelyhood we'd still have a shitty economy if we had a democratic congress over the last eight years because we would have gone to both wars and spent trillions then too! It doesn't matter who's in office! Yay politics!

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 1:55 PM

BYTEMITE


Gino: We wouldn't have a more central party, we'd just have the same people from both parties who vote the same way on the same things dictating policy. The people who voted for the goddamn PATRIOT act. We'd have one single party... Oh wait, we already have that in all but name.

Sorry, I'm bitter and angry today.

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