REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

State Of The Union Speech

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 3, 2010 09:26
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Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:50 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Care to retract your post ? Just a simple acknowledgement that you were wrong will do.


I reviewed the mentions of prior cases. Even Roosevelt showed tremendous respect for the Court while being critical of their rulings and seeking to undermine them by packing the court.

Each of the nine prior State of the Union speeches with sections addressing legal decisions had in common a respectful addressing of the issue that Obama lacked. Frankly...there is no precedent for calling the Court out like that.

That he was dead wrong on the law only made it worse. Obama did not simply take the other side, such as Reagan did with Roe...he took neither of the argued sides or issues and simply got the ruling wrong...wrong on the scope, wrong on the issue, wrong on the remedy, wrong on the precedent. Had that been his analysis for a law class, he'd have failed the exam for answering the wrong question and getting his wrong answer wrong (noting for the record that in lawschool if you give the right answer to the wrong question, you can still pass...Obama missed on both levels).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:57 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Hero: We ended Iraq in victory? Really? Wow, I missed that—I thought it was still in process, and from what I hear, still having bombings, government unstable, etc., etc. I’m sure glad to hear it’s a “victory”!


By the time Bush left office the surge had completely succeeded and the govt was in firm control, a situation that remains today.

That does not mean the the announced withdrawl of our troops wont lead Al Queda to reopen a new Iraqi campaign in the coming year.
Quote:


As to “39 Senate Votes”, I believe it was 40? You must have missed recent discussions; if 40 Senators inform the rest of a “procedural filibuster”, then NOTHING can be done without a 60-vote majority.


Obama was seeking to blame Republicans for the failure to pass his legislation. Republicans had 39 votes last year...they could not fillibuster if they wanted to.

In effect Obama blamed them for all voting against him, when in fact his opposition was bi-partisan in both houses.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:01 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
And the stupid Repub's response (let me count the ways) was the most obvious form of puppet theater I've ever seen that didn't include actual puppets.... or did it?
(I apologize to the Fabricated American community.)


I note for the record that I would have loved to see actual puppets giving the response...maybe the muppets with Kermit the Frog sitting on the FOX News panel...

They could have used Rigel from Farscape to do the speech and filled the hall with all the other muppets...including those two old guys that used to make fun of the Muppet Show...

That would have been cool.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 1:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
noting for the record that in lawschool if you give the right answer to the wrong question, you can still pass...


Oh goddamn, that's just too easy, and there's plenty more to work with...

Your ball, Mikey.

-F

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Monday, February 1, 2010 2:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
noting for the record that in lawschool if you give the right answer to the wrong question, you can still pass...


Oh goddamn, that's just too easy, and there's plenty more to work with...

Your ball, Mikey.


Exams in lawschool test both knowledge and analysis. Recognizing and understanding the question is only one part of the answer. If you get that wrong but give a proper analysis to the question you thought was being asked, you will likely pass.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 3:49 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
JS, do you think the way the response was done might have been an effort to present themselves as this brand spanking new party with galvanized newbies? Sure was a contrast to Bobby Jindal’s flop.


Maybe that was the intention, but it didn't come off that way. It was too pre-planned. Seems to me that if the "response" was going to mean something, it should have been in response to Obama's words, not just a bunch of talking points written before Obama even spoke.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 8:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by "Hero":


10. He wont "quit". I found this very disappointing.




Did you have him mixed up with Sarah Palin? Did you EXPECT him to quit? Is quitting a family value now?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 1, 2010 9:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
noting for the record that in lawschool if you give the right answer to the wrong question, you can still pass...


Oh goddamn, that's just too easy, and there's plenty more to work with...

Your ball, Mikey.

-F




Hell, "Hero" himself just says it all, doesn't he? After all, how many times has he given the wrong answer to the wrong question, the wrong answer to the right question, or just no answer at all?

Now all he's got to resort to is "...But OBAMA!" "But Obama wasn't respectful enough to his massa! How dare he speak directly to a white person!"

Yup, "Hero" is proof positive, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the wrong answer can still get you a passing grade in "liar" school, as well as in the Republican party.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 1, 2010 9:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

By the time Bush left office the surge had completely succeeded and the govt was in firm control, a situation that remains today.




So we actually WON the Iraq War, and did so while Bush was in office?

Hell, you'd've thought they'd have a banner for something like that... ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 1, 2010 10:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So we actually WON the Iraq War, and did so while Bush was in office?

Hell, you'd've thought they'd have a banner for something like that... ;)


or fireworks?

or a parade?

or a special color section newspaper pullout?

or a new Monday holiday?

or a new Fox action series?

or a Lady Ga Ga music special with John McCain on the funkmaker machine?

Something! Anything!? I guess they just decided to leave it up to each of us to celebrate in our way. So, the War is Won, and I am safe from Saddaam's WMD's! Now I'll finally be able to get a good night's sleep.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 10:47 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


It all depends on how you define victory


If you wanted a broken country on the edge of a etho-religious civil war.... you won

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/02/2010219555454789.
html



Wouldn't surprise me at all if that were the case




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 1, 2010 10:55 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Did you have him mixed up with Sarah Palin? Did you EXPECT him to quit? Is quitting a family value now?


Nothing like that...I never expected him to quit, but it was kinda disappointing for him to come right out and say it.

Lets face it, he took a hell of a pounding in Round 1 from a much weaker opponant, I hope he's going to change tactics, take the Clinton approach. But I just reviewed the budget and its clear that we're going to have to spend the next 11 months kicking his ass...and somehow that's kinda sad.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 11:01 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Been sick a couple of days, just catching up. Interesting discussion...man, you guys move fast!

I’m like you JS, I like to see how they tear it apart, almost more than the speech itself, since they usually use clips (so I can judge for myself, not take what they say verbatim). I did find a difference in MSNBC’s review than you did; I heard a lot more negative for Obama than you appear to have. Quite a bit about “show us the money” I need to sit down and watch the speech (and the other one since then) to get the whole thing, but I hate watching Presidential speeches, and I’m sick at present, so that’ll have to wait. I didn’t catch the “grades” they gave him, only what I heard…and none of it beforehand, so I’ll take your word for that.

In general, I give him an “A” any time he speaks…whatever may be true of his actions, leadership, etc., the man can talk. I know Edwards ended up being a flop (a HUGE one!), but I voted for him in the primary largely because when he spoke, he talked straight—and did so on almost all of the issues that everyone ELSE is talking about now, and with mostly the same conclusions as Obama has come to. What Obama says, however, has shown itself to be little connected to what he DOES or how he leads, so I’m still waiting. I DO thoroughly enjoy his saying it like it is so often, tho’, that’s refreshing.

Bingo Gino:
Quote:

So far he has shown himself to be a nice guy who works through the mainstream part of the system, and while that sounds nice it has made him a tool of the special interest groups and power wielding advisors that have had too much control for too long now.
That was my fear of him from the very start, that he’s not strong enough to handle Washington and, despite having good ideas and I believe being an honest man who really wants to accomplish things, isn’t a strong enough leader or savvy enough to accomplish them.






Niki, I think the US needs something Britain and Canada has had since the beginning

we have what we call " question period " in the house of commons, where the opposition party(s) directly ask policy question to the Prime Minister.

If the US had this

1. Obama would need to be very clear on policy, his answers would be direct to media, remember this is not a speech so it will not only seem more honest, but follow up questions will force any ambiguous answers away.

2. The Repubs would have to use this to resolve their questions ( or at least pose those questions in a forum where they get answered immediately ) this would limit if not stop the more unfair sniping, because the question is answered right then. " death panel " comments are dealt with immediately, and if off base enough serve to harm the questioner more than the answerer.

3. Media questioning doesn't really cut it as the media has become partisan, Fox will cut Obama down, MSNBC will support him, etc. This process is as much about the guy asking the question, as it is about the guy answering it... The media doesn't answer for what the say in that way... For example, if Palin ( if she was in the position ) directly questioned Obama about " Death Panels " she would immediately, and publicly look and sound like a meth head.

Credibility, or at least more credibility than now

For either side, whomever had their shit together



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 1, 2010 11:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hell, you'd've thought they'd have a banner for something like that... ;)


I'm sure we can find one somewhere. All we need is a quote.

How about here:
“I believe myself that the secretary of state, secretary of defense and — you have to make your own decisions as to what the president knows — that this war is lost and the surge is not accomplishing anything as indicated by the extreme violence in Iraq.”- wait that was from BEFORE the surge...

“The president said, “Let’s send some more troops over there, and that will give the Iraqis the time to take care of themselves.” We sent other troops over there, and there are a lot of reasons the surge certainly hasn’t hurt. It’s helped. I recognize that.”- same fella, eight months later...

No wait those are Reid, not Obama.

"There is no military solution to the war in Iraq." Obama in 2007 before the surge.

"From getting rid of Saddam, to reducing violence, to stabilizing the country, to facilitating elections -- you have given Iraq the opportunity to stand on its own as a democratic country. That is an extraordinary achievement." Obama, last April...in Iraq.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 11:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


"There is no military solution to the war in Iraq." Obama in 2007 before the surge.



I take it you agree with him, since the biggest part of "the surge" - the part that made the most difference, according to all sources - was the ECONOMIC aspect of it, not the military one. Turns out if you pay people enough, they won't attack you. Seems our military is just now learning what most other gangsters have known for generations.

And people wonder why they call 'em jarheads...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 1, 2010 12:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh, by the way, "Hero" - it looks like the Iraqis started celebrating without you...

http://www.newsonair.com/news.asp?cat=international&id=IN2365

But if you want to insist that Obama won the Iraq War all on his own, I guess I won't stand in your way, even though I'm not convinced that the troubles are over or the war is won.

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Monday, February 1, 2010 1:04 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Let's just call Godwins law and leave Wulfie out of the conversation from here on out?"

How very Democratic of you, Story.

Really.

You prove my points more eloquently than even I can.



I'm sorry - were we holding a vote, becuase I coulda sworn I was merely mocking a douchebag who was rambling about Hitler.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, February 1, 2010 1:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


More good news for Obama: GDP growing at 5.7%, the highest rates of growth seen in years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/29/DI2
010012902016.html


Seems that economic stimulus that "Hero" claims didn't work, worked. And is still working. Unemployment is a trailing economic indicator, so we should be seeing job growth coming along later this year.


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Monday, February 1, 2010 3:06 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
More good news for Obama: GDP growing at 5.7%, the highest rates of growth seen in years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/29/DI2
010012902016.html


Seems that economic stimulus that "Hero" claims didn't work, worked. And is still working. Unemployment is a trailing economic indicator, so we should be seeing job growth coming along later this year.




That was before Obama man pissed off China

that could be a negative number next quarter



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 10:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Each of the nine prior State of the Union speeches with sections addressing legal decisions had in common a respectful addressing of the issue that Obama lacked. Frankly...there is no precedent for calling the Court out like that.
Just to refresh your memory on the specifics as to other Presidents’ criticism of the Supreme Court’s rulings during SOTU speeches, Hero:
Quote:

Warren G. Harding, 1922: criticized the court for putting "this problem outside the proper domain of Federal regulation until the Constitution is so amended as to give the Congress indubitable authority. I recommend the submission of such an amendment."

Reagan, 1988: The Congress opens its proceedings each day, as does the Supreme Court, with an acknowledgment of the Supreme Being. Yet we are denied the right to set aside in our schools a moment each day for those who wish to pray. I believe Congress should pass our school prayer amendment.

Reagan, 1973: And while I'm on this subject, each day your Members observe a 200-year-old tradition meant to signify America is one nation under God. I must ask: If you can begin your day with a member of the clergy standing right here leading you in prayer, then why can't freedom to acknowledge God be enjoyed again by children in every schoolroom across this land?
Bush, 2004: Activist judges, however, have begun redefining marriage by court order, without regard for the will of the people and their elected representatives. On an issue of such great consequence, the people's voice must be heard. If judges insist on forcing their arbitrary will upon the people, the only alternative left to the people would be the constitutional process. Our Nation must defend the sanctity of marriage.

I see little difference between Obama’s remarks and those of other Presidents in their SOTU speeches—especially Bush, who was pretty damned blunt! That you do see a difference, especially that they don’t define “precedent”, says more about you than the facts, in my opinion.
Quote:

By the time Bush left office the surge had completely succeeded and the govt was in firm control, a situation that remains today.
That’s an amazing statement, given the facts:
Quote:

the Sunni-led insurgency remains potent in northern Iraq. An Associated Press count recorded at least 288 Iraqi civilians and security forces killed in February 2009….The political process is full of tensions and contradictions and the situation in Iraqi will deteriorate if political progress isn't made," Sunni lawmaker Osama al-Nujaifi said. "There are still a lot of challenges ahead, including unemployment and the immigration millions of Iraqis abroad." He cited the country's budget crisis after severe cuts had to be made following the steep drop in oil prices from a high of $150 per barrel last summer to just over $50 per barrel on Thursday. "We live in a critical economic situation," he said. "There is a lot to be accomplished before we can express our optimism."( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/19/iraq-war-anniversary-viol_n_1
77115.html
).

Almost five million Iraqis remain displaced from their homes as a result of the violence and continued instability, according to the United Nations High Commissioner For Refugees. ( http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home)

About 11.3 million people have sewage services, according to AP. That leaves about 16 million people without it ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/03/iraq/main4840619.shtml)

Iraqi women continue to be targeted because of their gender, according to Amnesty International. Iraq women and girls face "systematic discrimination and violence" by men with different political agendas ( http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE14/005/2009/en).

AMERICAN CASUALTIES -- Thirty Americans have died in Iraq since the Obama inauguration, as of March 16, according to Antiwar.com ( http://antiwar.com/casualties/0 .

IRAQI CASUALTIES -- There were almost 300 war-related Iraqi casualties in February 2009, according to AP ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/03/iraq/main4840619.shtml).

Rising numbers of Iraqi women are being sold into sexual slavery every year because of the waning economy and dire security situation ( http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7017156917).

Didn’t even take long to find those. If that’s what you consider “stability”, well, there’s nothing else to say. Sure, it’s better, but it’s not STABLE,

Note Obama said: “you have given Iraq the opportunity to stand……” That don’t mean it’s DONE yet.

On the other hand, I love your idea of real puppet theater. Someone should do that, I’d love to see it!

JS, yes, I agree on everything you said about the response. There seem to be other indications the Republicans are trying to disavow their prior actions, this BIOB thing of McCain’s, the way they’re trying to but the entire economic situation on Obama—seems to me showing “outsiders” rather than the familiar faces might be another move similar to those. Heard Barney Frank note that once Brown is in office, will have have difficulty being re-elected, as by then he’ll be an “insider”? He made a crack about the Tea Party folks maybe being “serial backers of” outsiders, because once in office, everyone’s an “insider”. Made me giggle.

Gino, yes, I agree. For a long time I have regretted that we don’t have the British “vote of no confidence” (think of how long ago we’d have been rid of Dumbya??). Now I have a second thing to envy; I thought this was a great idea, and I’d love to see more of it.



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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 10:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


On the other hand, I love your idea of real puppet theater. Someone should do that, I’d love to see it!



You mean someone OTHER than FauxNews?

I note for the record that you'll never see O'Reilly drink a glass of water while Beck speaks. How far up Beck's ass IS O'Reilly's hand, anyway? Maybe if he reaches up just a li'l more, he can pull "Hero's" head out...

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Uhhh, you sure you don't mean Limbaugh? Me, I can almost see his hand, tho' I'm not sure if it's really his or what's-his-name, the guy who runs Faux Noise, the one who said they turned away from Obama's session with the Republicans because...

"We're the most trusted news organization ..."





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