REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Israeli cruise ships dock at Haiti to enjoy empty beaches after earthquake

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Sunday, January 24, 2010 15:23
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Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:05 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Cathy O'brien wrote that Royal Caribbean picks up dope in Haiti

Luxury liners are still docking at private beaches near Haiti's devastated earthquake zone for holidaymakers to enjoy the water
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/cruise-ships-haiti-earthqu
ake


Quote:

Sixty miles from Haiti's devastated earthquake zone, luxury liners dock at private beaches where passengers enjoy jetski rides, parasailing and rum cocktails delivered to their hammocks.

The 4,370-berth Independence of the Seas, owned by Royal Caribbean International, disembarked at the heavily guarded resort of Labadee on the north coast on Friday; a second cruise ship, the 3,100-passenger Navigator of the Seas is due to dock.

The decision to go ahead with the visit has divided passengers. The ships carry some food aid, and the cruise line has pledged to donate all proceeds from the visit to help stricken Haitians. But many passengers will stay aboard when they dock; one said he was "sickened".

"I just can't see myself sunning on the beach, playing in the water, eating a barbecue, and enjoying a cocktail while [in Port-au-Prince] there are tens of thousands of dead people being piled up on the streets, with the survivors stunned and looking for food and water," one passenger wrote on the Cruise Critic internet forum.

"It was hard enough to sit and eat a picnic lunch at Labadee before the quake, knowing how many Haitians were starving," said another. "I can't imagine having to choke down a burger there now.''



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Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Where does the "Jew" thing work into this, PN?

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Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:03 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Where does the "Jew" thing work into this, PN?


Its a cruise ship...all cruise ships are Jewish, just like all beaches, Haitians, earthquakes, Tennessee State Highway Patrol, Nazis, and J-Lo.

His next post will be about the phony Haitian-Nazi-Jew Holocaust to justify the theft of Palistinian lands for new Jewish Her Majesty's housing developments.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm reminded the words of a li'l ditty by Nine Inch Nails...

Quote:

God money's not looking for the cure.
God money's not concerned with the sick among the pure.
God money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised.
God money's not one to choose
No you can't take it
No you can't take it
No you can't take that away from me
No you can't take it
No you can't take it
No you can't take that away from me
Head like a hole.
Black as your soul.
I'd rather die than give you control.
Head like a hole.
Black as your soul.
I'd rather die than give you control.
Bow down before the one you serve.
You're going to get what you deserve.





Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:10 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Don't have the patience to read thru PN's crap, but it is a fact that all the seaside resorts are open and thriving in the Dominican Republic, not all that far away from the devastation around Port AuPrince. That seems a tad surreal to me; tourists lounging around in pampered luxury while millions are in desperate condition just a few clicks away.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"tourists lounging around in pampered luxury while millions are in desperate condition just a few clicks away."

5-star hotels on the Beach in Santa Monica keep their back (beach side) doors locked from the inside after sunset - to keep the homeless out.

The homeless push their shopping carts through nice touristy downtown Chicago and sleep in Grant Park.


I don't see the difference, except in scale.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"tourists lounging around in pampered luxury while millions are in desperate condition just a few clicks away."

5-star hotels on the Beach in Santa Monica keep their back (beach side) doors locked from the inside after sunset - to keep the homeless out.

The homeless push their shopping carts through nice touristy downtown Chicago and sleep in Grant Park.


I don't see the difference, except in scale.



That doesn't surprise me.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Then tell me what the difference is.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Then tell me what the difference is.



Ask the U.N., or the Red Cross, or Doctors Without Borders, or President Obama, or Hillary, or Bill Clinton. They're all much smarter than I am, and I'm sure they can give you an answer to your sincere question.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:48 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


I read that the cruise ships were going to stop operations, but both the DM and Haiti govs asked them to keep going as they needed to maintain the port fees...

Money coming in is also a priority




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:55 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Don't have the patience to read thru PN's crap, but it is a fact that all the seaside resorts are open and thriving in the Dominican Republic, not all that far away from the devastation around Port AuPrince. That seems a tad surreal to me; tourists lounging around in pampered luxury while millions are in desperate condition just a few clicks away."

My question had nothing to do with the quake per se, and neither did your comment. And neither did the article. It had to do with people ignoring the life and death need of others just a short distance away while living and dining in opulence.

So, my question remains - what is the difference except scale ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:21 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
My question had nothing to do with the quake per se, and neither did your comment. And neither did the article. It had to do with people ignoring the life and death need of others just a short distance away while living and dining in opulence.

So, my question remains - what is the difference except scale ?


Scale & Severity ARE the difference. It's just human nature I suppose. We all have our own tipping points on things. Why do people trample others to death to get into Walmart to buy a stupid Tv set? We all tend to ignore the bad things we see every day in our own towns, but when the scale & severity of a Haiti arises, we feel horrible all of a sudden, and we want to help. I work in Ft Lauderdale, a beautiful city that has a large population of homeless and other transient beggars. I give them money from time to time, but I also know there are other resources for them to sustain their life, such as it is. There's none of that in Haiti without the combined efforts of people and nations.

So if I was at your West coast resort and saw some homeless out there, I don't think I'd be all that upset. If I happened to be vacationing 50 miles from Haiti, I believe it would feel very wrong to me. Not sure if that explains it well enough for you, but that's my answer.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I accept your explanation, if not your conclusion.

THANKS ! for taking the time to detail a rationale of your impressions, information and conclusions !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
My question had nothing to do with the quake per se, and neither did your comment. And neither did the article. It had to do with people ignoring the life and death need of others just a short distance away while living and dining in opulence.

So, my question remains - what is the difference except scale ?


Scale & Severity ARE the difference. It's just human nature I suppose. We all have our own tipping points on things. Why do people trample others to death to get into Walmart to buy a stupid Tv set? We all tend to ignore the bad things we see every day in our own towns, but when the scale & severity of a Haiti arises, we feel horrible all of a sudden, and we want to help. I work in Ft Lauderdale, a beautiful city that has a large population of homeless and other transient beggars. I give them money from time to time, but I also know there are other resources for them to sustain their life, such as it is. There's none of that in Haiti without the combined efforts of people and nations.

So if I was at your West coast resort and saw some homeless out there, I don't think I'd be all that upset. If I happened to be vacationing 50 miles from Haiti, I believe it would feel very wrong to me. Not sure if that explains it well enough for you, but that's my answer.



I hear ya, and I get that. Trust me, I really do.

And yes, there is a very angry part of me that wants to send sniper rifles and ammo to Haiti, along with maps and instructions, and an explanation. "Dear people of Haiti: These people have money. Lots of money. And food, all you can eat buffets. And they are laughing at your pain, and enjoying themselves in your misery. And they can be found HERE every Tuesday and Thursday. Happy Hunting!"


But that would be wrong, so I choke down those emotions and send money instead.

But I get what you're saying about the scale of the horror making the snorkeling and sunbathing just feel so wrong. Hell, I'm surprised they aren't snorkeling in the bay at Port Au Prince, just swimming around the bodies still floating in the water...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I have my grandmother's food ethic from the old country. If someone comes to your house, you offer them food. If you are in the company of others and you are eating and they have nothing, you offer them some of yours.

I have always been uncomforable in the presence of the homeless and hungry - not b/c I think they are bad people but b/c I know I have so much more than they.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Not sure if it's West Virginia hospitality* or some part of my euro-mongrel ancestry, but that's actually my second instinct towards other people, to feed them.

I think it's rooted in the better part of human nature, too, cause it's the very essence of trust and bonding at the most primitive level, the sharing of food.
(not to mention it makes a pretty good bribe or set-up to put someone in a receptive mood to asking a favor, hee hee)

Seriously though, that instinct is one of the things that started to convince me human nature wasn't as bad as made out to be, that we're TAUGHT to ignore it.

-Frem
*Ah yes, good ole West Virginia hospitality, feed them stuffed, pass around the mason jar, and out come the cards, don't they - that's if you're lucky, if you're not, you're likely to find yourself axe in hand, splittin half a cord of wood and wondering how exactly you got talked into that...
*snicker*

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:18 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
My question had nothing to do with the quake per se, and neither did your comment. And neither did the article. It had to do with people ignoring the life and death need of others just a short distance away while living and dining in opulence.

So, my question remains - what is the difference except scale ?


Scale & Severity ARE the difference. It's just human nature I suppose. We all have our own tipping points on things. Why do people trample others to death to get into Walmart to buy a stupid Tv set? We all tend to ignore the bad things we see every day in our own towns, but when the scale & severity of a Haiti arises, we feel horrible all of a sudden, and we want to help. I work in Ft Lauderdale, a beautiful city that has a large population of homeless and other transient beggars. I give them money from time to time, but I also know there are other resources for them to sustain their life, such as it is. There's none of that in Haiti without the combined efforts of people and nations.

So if I was at your West coast resort and saw some homeless out there, I don't think I'd be all that upset. If I happened to be vacationing 50 miles from Haiti, I believe it would feel very wrong to me. Not sure if that explains it well enough for you, but that's my answer.



I hear ya, and I get that. Trust me, I really do.

And yes, there is a very angry part of me that wants to send sniper rifles and ammo to Haiti, along with maps and instructions, and an explanation. "Dear people of Haiti: These people have money. Lots of money. And food, all you can eat buffets. And they are laughing at your pain, and enjoying themselves in your misery. And they can be found HERE every Tuesday and Thursday. Happy Hunting!"


But that would be wrong, so I choke down those emotions and send money instead.

But I get what you're saying about the scale of the horror making the snorkeling and sunbathing just feel so wrong. Hell, I'm surprised they aren't snorkeling in the bay at Port Au Prince, just swimming around the bodies still floating in the water...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde





Read this then answer again :


http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/01/18/consumer-cruise-ships-hait
i.html



Haiti, Dominican Republic juggle ethics of tourism after quake
Cruise ship docked 100 km from Haitian capital devastated by earthquake




The Dominican Republic is urging tourists not to cancel holiday bookings despite a devastating earthquake in neighbouring Haiti, where people are debating whether it is appropriate for cruise ships to keep making scheduled stops at the country's private beach resorts.

The Dominican Republic's tourism industry is urging vacationers not to cancel bookings to the country, saying tourist dollars are needed now more than ever since a 7.0-magnitude earthquake on Jan. 12 devastated Haiti.

In Haiti itself, there are questions as to whether it was appropriate for a cruise ship to make a scheduled stop three days after the quake at a private beach resort 100 km from the flattened capital, Port-au-Prince, which took the brunt of the disaster.

The two countries occupy one island, with the Dominican Republic making up a larger eastern portion that remained relatively untouched by the strong earthquake and Haiti the remaining western part.

"There was no damage to the natural environment [in Dominican Republic]," said Vanessa Welter, the public relations officer for the Dominican Republic's Ministry of Tourism

"All the infrastructure, hotels — everything is fine. Some people said they felt a little dizzy, but they didn't' realize until after they heard on the news that there was an earthquake that that might have been why they were dizzy."

Dominican holiday hotspot Punta Cana is separated from Port-au-Prince by more than 400 kilometres of mountainous and dense jungle terrain, but tourism dollars spent there and elsewhere in the country could actually help Haiti, Welter said.

"Because in a small way, that does strengthen the country. And actually, because [the Dominican] is a strong country, they're able to help their neighbours," she said.

The Dominican Republic is a top travel destination for Canadians, who in 2008, booked about 500,000 vacations booked to the country, according to Statistics Canada.

Kelowna, B.C., resident Lydia Bohna was among those weighing whether or not to cancel a two-week vacation to the Dominican Republic she'd booked earlier this month.

"The concern is, 'Is it safe to go?'" said Bohna. "A friend of mine is cancelling. She doesn't want to go. She said, 'I got a bad feeling about it. I'm cancelling.' So, she's going to lose all her money."
Cruise ships to continue docking at Haitian ports

Tourism-related questions began popping up in Haiti itself soon after the disaster hit when Florida-based cruise ship line Royal Caribbean International decided it would not cancel its scheduled stops at a private resort in Labadee, less than 100 km from Port-au-Prince.

Royal Caribbean leases five beaches from Haiti's government. Last Friday, three days after the earthquake struck, the Independence of the Seas pulled into a private dock in Labadee. Not all passengers felt it was appropriate to enjoy the stop with such misery nearby, according to comments posted on a message board hosted by Cruisecritic.com and quoted in the British newspaper The Guardian.

"It was hard enough to sit and eat a picnic lunch at Labadee before the earthquake knowing how many Haitians were starving. I can't imagine having to choke down a burger there now," wrote one contributor under the name Bakincakes.

Other commenters on the message board disagreed.

"I do not think it will be the same level of a party there, but more of a visit with a determination and purpose," wrote temple1. "By tipping workers, purchasing from vendors and other activities, cruisers will be helping the locals in Cap Haïtien and the relief efforts in Port-au-Prince."

Two other Royal Caribbean cruise ships are scheduled to pull in to Labadee this week, although cruise officials pointed out the ships will be carrying food supplies that will be distributed to the needy.

Richard Fain, the CEO of Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. defended the decision to continue to stop at Labadee.

"The effect of the earthquake on Haiti has been catastrophic, leaving the country in need of not only immediate support but assistance in their long-term recovery," said Fain in a news release Friday.

"Royal Caribbean wants to do its part to help out not only the general response but also our hundreds of Haitian employees and their families through this disaster," he said.

The decision has the support of Haiti's United Nations envoy.

"Given the terrible economic and social challenges we now face in Haiti, we welcome the continuation of the positive economic benefits that the cruise ship calls to Labadee contribute to our country," said Leslie Voltaire, Haiti's special envoy to the UN.

Royal Caribbean Cruises has also announced it will provide at least $1 million in humanitarian relief to Haiti.





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:26 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Where does the "Jew" thing work into this, PN?



Royal Caribbean is an Israeli company. Only jews are allowed to be citizens of Israel. Never mind that 95% of jews are Commie atheists and have no DNA from Semites.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:33 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


I'm disappointed that enterprising travel companies don't offer tours of disaster zones, where you actually get to HELP save people. Some folks find that fun.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

That seems a tad surreal to me; tourists lounging around in pampered luxury while millions are in desperate condition just a few clicks away.



That's true about all cruise ships that port in 3rd world nations.

Really weird to tour the "beautiful" temples in Mexico where 10,000 slaves were cannibalized daily.





Weird that Christians use a torture device as their official logo, and pay for jewish tours of the Holy Land where Christianity is a felony and jews massacre Arabs and Christians daily today.



"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."
-George W Bush, convicted drunk driver, Gridiron Dinner, March 2001

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:43 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And yes, there is a very angry part of me that wants to send sniper rifles and ammo to Haiti, along with maps and instructions, and an explanation. "Dear people of Haiti: These people have money. Lots of money. And food, all you can eat buffets. And they are laughing at your pain, and enjoying themselves in your misery. And they can be found HERE every Tuesday and Thursday. Happy Hunting!"

But that would be wrong, so I choke down those emotions and send money instead.



"I find your argument both disturbing and intriguing."
-Rick Castle

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:47 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Ask the U.N., or the Red Cross, or Doctors Without Borders, or President Obama, or Hillary, or Bill Clinton. They're all much smarter than I am, and I'm sure they can give you an answer to your sincere question.



Red Cross is a GOP/CIA front that steals most of the donations. Ask 9/11 survivors and 1,000s of dead 9/11 First Responders who died years after 9/11.

Red Cross got busted for knowingly allowing HIV in its blood supply, which murdered my mother-in-law during bypass surgery.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:58 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Where does the "Jew" thing work into this, PN?



Royal Caribbean is an Israeli company. Only jews are allowed to be citizens of Israel. Never mind that 95% of jews are Commie atheists and have no DNA from Semites.



Try again, the company was Norwegian founded and is now a Norway / US based publicly traded company...



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 3:07 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I accept your explanation, if not your conclusion.

THANKS ! for taking the time to detail a rationale of your impressions, information and conclusions !



I left work yesterday just after my last post back to you, and I've been thinking about your original question since then. I have to say that you are right. There really is no difference. "Human nature" is just an excuse we use to deflect and rationalize our own shortcomings. In an academic setting, a debate on this would have found me on the losing side of the debate. Misery is misery, period. I guess it takes a Haiti for a lot of us to drop our cold, hard act for a while and feel other's pain. It's now 9 days, and we're all ready to move on to the "next story". Unfortunately for Haiti, there won't be any moving on for quite some time.

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Friday, January 22, 2010 6:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
I'm disappointed that enterprising travel companies don't offer tours of disaster zones, where you actually get to HELP save people. Some folks find that fun.


That's actually a pretty cool idea, and while not as effective as professional rescue workers, it can be quite satisfying as well as soothing to ones conscience to throw in a days worth of assistance, and really, how much skill does it take to unload trucks and break down pallet loads for distribution ?

The cruise companies make damned good point, and carrying additional relief supplies is very kind of them - why not just suggest to the passengers that they bring an extra bag (no fee) of smaller relief and comfort items to donate ?

S'funny what even small amounts of comfort/relief supplies can do - yes, food, water and medical supplies are essential, but life goes on, even in the darkest places, and trust me when I tell you some of the oddest things can restore a persons faith in humanity, we routed one shipment of maxipads and diapers to the superdome during Katrina, which was very well-received.

Choose LIFE, even in the darkest hours.

-F

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Friday, January 22, 2010 9:49 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
I'm disappointed that enterprising travel companies don't offer tours of disaster zones, where you actually get to HELP save people. Some folks find that fun.


That's actually a pretty cool idea, and while not as effective as professional rescue workers, it can be quite satisfying as well as soothing to ones conscience to throw in a days worth of assistance, and really, how much skill does it take to unload trucks and break down pallet loads for distribution ?

The cruise companies make damned good point, and carrying additional relief supplies is very kind of them - why not just suggest to the passengers that they bring an extra bag (no fee) of smaller relief and comfort items to donate ?

S'funny what even small amounts of comfort/relief supplies can do - yes, food, water and medical supplies are essential, but life goes on, even in the darkest places, and trust me when I tell you some of the oddest things can restore a persons faith in humanity, we routed one shipment of maxipads and diapers to the superdome during Katrina, which was very well-received.

Choose LIFE, even in the darkest hours.

-F




I read that the most useful thing the cruise ships are off loading is potable water... that will likely change as pumping / filtering equipment comes on line, but a few thousand litres can be the difference between life or death for many

I like your idea Frem, but I don't thing there is a manpower shortage here, more of a leadership / co-ordination shortage...

Unless you are a heavy equipment operator or some other necessary specialty... you'd likely be in the way

and if the locals were on whatever jobs they can handle, it gives them an opportunity to do something... keeping shock from setting in and being useful can keep a guy from going crazy.



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 1:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I like your idea Frem, but I don't thing there is a manpower shortage here, more of a leadership / co-ordination shortage...

Unless you are a heavy equipment operator or some other necessary specialty... you'd likely be in the way

and if the locals were on whatever jobs they can handle, it gives them an opportunity to do something... keeping shock from setting in and being useful can keep a guy from going crazy.


Well, it's not that they'd be useful - it'd be more a show of solidarity, a visual example that other humans care, morale is important in these things, the will to keep going.

Especially if you get em side by side WITH some of the local folks you're setting to it, what better way to forment tolerance, compassion and understanding ?

That said, it's kinda funny you mentioned heavy equipment, it's too bad I am in no physical shape for it and have a business to run, cause I was actually considering buying out someone elses cruise ticket...

One of the few *useful* things I learned from the military was how to operate heavy and all terrain MHE, which even rusty I can do with surprising efficiency and delicacy - one of the training drills was unloading a botched and scattered airdrop (hell, some of it was up there sideways in the friggin trees) in a horrendous downpour on top of what was more or less a swamp.
Stack em, rack em, pack em, get it in the trucks - most folk don't respect Quartermasters much, although now we're dreadfully missed given KBRs performance, or rather, the lack thereof, but someone has to feed the triggermen, and often enough that means operating in a forward position without much in the way of a security element (shit, most of the time me and the rough squad WERE the security element!) armed with weapons and gear that shoulda been junked years ago, and working on a pathetic minimum of actual training that was focused on physical conditioning to the exclusion of all else...

Poor bastards.

As we learned in field exercises, since almost none of em could shoot well, even if the bores of them vietnam relic M16's weren't shot out, the only way to manage effective fire was to pick one person per squad who COULD manage to shoot, and give them the best rifle, loaded with tracers, while the rest of em volleyed on full auto at wherever the tracer went - this inflicted massive casualties on the unit trying to take us in a field exercise back in the 80's - but it's a sad damn thing when you're reduced to musket line firing in a modern army.

Bit of a ramble, but it's always been a button issue with me how supply/logistics folk are left to swing without decent equipment or training while operating in a forward position in a hostile zone.

-F

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Friday, January 22, 2010 1:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well Frem, that's because the modern army actually thinks it will be in and out so fast they won't even have to worry about stopping for lunch.

And with "god" on their side, how can they go wrong? ;)

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Friday, January 22, 2010 3:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I know what you mean Frem, I was Signals, and most of our gear... particularly vehicles were on the way to the wrecking yard. Mind you, we did have alot of pride to be able to keep that shit running and to be able to do the job despite the handicap.

If I was free to go I'm sure I could find something to do too, MLVW or HLVW's aside I have experience with tractors,dozers and backhoes from the farm I grew up on... or possible my training as a Millwright ( Industrial Mechanic ) might be in demand... I can weld, rig, hoist, fix electrical or hydraulic systems...

But unless you are a part of a larger organization, I don't think the skill utilization would be there, they'd have you digging holes that likely didn't need digging in the first place just so it looked like you were doing something.





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 3:09 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well Frem, that's because the modern army actually thinks it will be in and out so fast they won't even have to worry about stopping for lunch.

And with "god" on their side, how can they go wrong? ;)



At least they aren't passing out sniper rifles to people helping them out...

(snark)



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 4:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well Frem, that's because the modern army actually thinks it will be in and out so fast they won't even have to worry about stopping for lunch.

And with "god" on their side, how can they go wrong? ;)



At least they aren't passing out sniper rifles to people helping them out...

(snark)





Ahem... It seems you missed the salient points of my post, which I'll repeat here for your edification:

Quote:


I hear ya, and I get that. Trust me, I really do.

And yes, there is a very angry part of me that wants to send sniper rifles and ammo to Haiti, along with maps and instructions, and an explanation. "Dear people of Haiti: These people have money. Lots of money. And food, all you can eat buffets. And they are laughing at your pain, and enjoying themselves in your misery. And they can be found HERE every Tuesday and Thursday. Happy Hunting!"


But that would be wrong, so I choke down those emotions and send money instead.



I said "there's a PART OF ME" that would like to arm them, BUT I KEEP IT IN CHECK AND DO THE BETTER THING.

Just so we're all clear. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Friday, January 22, 2010 5:45 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well Frem, that's because the modern army actually thinks it will be in and out so fast they won't even have to worry about stopping for lunch.

And with "god" on their side, how can they go wrong? ;)



At least they aren't passing out sniper rifles to people helping them out...

(snark)





Ahem... It seems you missed the salient points of my post, which I'll repeat here for your edification:

Quote:


I hear ya, and I get that. Trust me, I really do.

And yes, there is a very angry part of me that wants to send sniper rifles and ammo to Haiti, along with maps and instructions, and an explanation. "Dear people of Haiti: These people have money. Lots of money. And food, all you can eat buffets. And they are laughing at your pain, and enjoying themselves in your misery. And they can be found HERE every Tuesday and Thursday. Happy Hunting!"


But that would be wrong, so I choke down those emotions and send money instead.



I said "there's a PART OF ME" that would like to arm them, BUT I KEEP IT IN CHECK AND DO THE BETTER THING.

Just so we're all clear. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde



And to be real clear

when I posted the story above showing how both the govs of Haiti and the Dominican Republic asked the cruiselines to keep running, and how the cruiseships were doing supply drops at the same time, and how by doing so they were not only keeping folk working but also raising dollars for the relief effort... I had hoped you would answer my

" Read this then answer again : "

question, with an admission you were talking out of your ass


I guess my thinking more of you than I do PN has been in error






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 5:49 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Here is a example of my point Frem,

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/01/22/calgary-helicopter-h
aiti.html


Calgary chopper pilots frustrated by Haiti chaos



Three Calgary helicopter pilots are spending a frustrating time in the Domincan Republic waiting to help with the humanitarian operation in Haiti.

Within days of the earthquake, Graydon Kowal, president of Calgary-based Guardian Helicopters, along with three colleagues and two choppers arrived in the Dominican Republic ready to help.

Kowal said the people who are supposed to be telling his team how to help are confused and unable to make decisions: "There seems to be a lack of any kind of co-ordination."

Kowal said he was scheduled to fly a UN food official over Port au-Prince Friday morning but the flight was cancelled.

"They flew her around in a caravan the day before. Somehow they didn't want to take the helicopter," he said. "I'm not sure what you could see from a caravan but that's how that operation went."

Guardian is a company that specializes in "long-lining," which means its helicopter pilots are capable of dropping loads into moving vehicles.

Kowal said his choppers could be doing effective relief work in Haiti.

Kowal was initially working with Red Cross/Save the Children to bring his helicopters to Haiti on contract, but grew frustrated when no decisions were being made. He rented a Hercules transport plane and flew his helicopters to the Dominican Republic, spending about $250,000 of his own money.



Trying to do good in a vacuum can be an exercise in frustration






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, January 22, 2010 5:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Ayep, amazing how much abuse a deuce an a half can take, innit ?

Still, mostly I am pissed at KBR, I might not care for the idea of actually having an army, but any meal those poor bastards get could be the last, and so you should strive for a basic minimum of quality, even if it is an MRE fulla beans & mutherfuckers....

Seriously, them things are hideous, I hope they phased that one out - but in a strange twist of fate despite not being visually appealing, the fruitcake in that series was actually quite palatable, go fig.

That, and watchin the aftermath of the 507th maintenance company, reading the after action reports of so many who died when they had to depend on that shitty equipment NO amount of maintenance could render anything other than junk.

All I could find that even WORKED on a regular basis was a damned M60A1 with a friggin anti-aircraft barrel on it, and even THAT required me to keep a roll of tape, bailing wire, and pocket of metal scraps to "maintain" it, but at least it would reliably go bang when I pulled the trigger - getting it to STOP however, was another problem....

-F

ETA: Oh hell, yes Gino - that was why I brought up Quartermasters in the first place, we're GOOD at that shit, organizing and prioritizing and all that rot the trigger pullers can't be bothered with!

Of course, since the Army shovelled it off on KBR, good freakin LUCK gettin anything done without a total clusterfuck now....

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Friday, January 22, 2010 6:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I guess my thinking more of you than I do PN has been in error



I actually haven't taken the time to read the article, but since your mind's already made up, I suppose there's no need for me to do so now, since it seems we have nothing to talk about on the matter.

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Friday, January 22, 2010 7:34 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

I guess my thinking more of you than I do PN has been in error



I actually haven't taken the time to read the article, but since your mind's already made up, I suppose there's no need for me to do so now, since it seems we have nothing to talk about on the matter.



Hell, debate it if you wish...

I have changed my mind before, if there is some piece of info I am lacking


sorry if I took a hostile tone, just came back from a family dinner... and those are always so pleasant... or not





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:35 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Then tell me what the difference is.



Ask the U.N., or the Red Cross, or Doctors Without Borders, or President Obama, or Hillary, or Bill Clinton. They're all much smarter than I am, and I'm sure they can give you an answer to your sincere question.



They all belong to PN's global Jewish conspiracy


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Sunday, January 24, 2010 2:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Coming in waaaay late. Had two feelings, probably not unlike others; first aghast they would dock and enjoy the sun, then recognition of the usefulness of the cruise ships' tourist dollars, etc. Hope they do bring food and stuff, and I like the idea of each tourist bringing an extra bag. Might make 'em feel good, too.
Quote:

I have always been uncomforable in the presence of the homeless and hungry - not b/c I think they are bad people but b/c I know I have so much more than they.
Me, too. Tho' I'm not THAT uncomfortable with them after having worked in the City for years, mostly I always carried dollar bills when I had to walk anywhere, and got to know a couple of them, one I brought dog food for his dog. Gave away a coat once on a rainy day, too, long, long ago.

I guess it's a fact of life--I hate it, but it's so huge I can't conceive of making a dent in it, so I just do what crosses my path and let the rest go, side from some sponsorships and donations. Dunno what any one person can do otherwise.

PN, take your ridiculous antisemitic neuroses and shove them where the sun don't shine. I'm sick of them.



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Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:23 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Coming in waaaay late. Had two feelings, probably not unlike others; first aghast they would dock and enjoy the sun, then recognition of the usefulness of the cruise ships' tourist dollars, etc. Hope they do bring food and stuff, and I like the idea of each tourist bringing an extra bag. Might make 'em feel good, too.
Quote:

I have always been uncomforable in the presence of the homeless and hungry - not b/c I think they are bad people but b/c I know I have so much more than they.
Me, too. Tho' I'm not THAT uncomfortable with them after having worked in the City for years, mostly I always carried dollar bills when I had to walk anywhere, and got to know a couple of them, one I brought dog food for his dog. Gave away a coat once on a rainy day, too, long, long ago.

I guess it's a fact of life--I hate it, but it's so huge I can't conceive of making a dent in it, so I just do what crosses my path and let the rest go, side from some sponsorships and donations. Dunno what any one person can do otherwise.

PN, take your ridiculous antisemitic neuroses and shove them where the sun don't shine. I'm sick of them.





I think the biggest problem with the homeless, is government trys to deal with individual situations with blanket solutions

You need to break down the types of homeless people and deal with each group seperately

Working Homeless, lots of folk out there with jobs and still can't get ahead enough to come up with what they need to rent a place, I think that falls on the city govs to ensure enough permits to build a level of low income housing that their area needs, instead of how developers would work and build the most they could sell.

Mentally Ill, programs to identify and deal with folk who have mental illness in a long term capacity requires alot of resources... but I think it could be cheaper than the arrest / assess / release cycle that happens too often

Addictions, I have said before more emphasis is needed in the rehab / reform side, even at the expense of the enforcement side... How many people habitually in and out of jail is too many, and add up those costs. Relocation release after treatment is an option here...




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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