REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Smile or Die

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, January 17, 2010 18:04
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VIEWED: 2607
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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This sounds too true.
Quote:

Barbara Ehrenreich’s study of American optimism at its most delusional is fascinating, often very funny, and wholly convincing... [America is] a babbling neurotic on the couch, popping pills and whining about its self-esteem. What went wrong?

Ehrenreich’s antidote is the time-honoured wisdom of “realism, to the point of defensive pessimism”. Studies show that a certain level of buoyancy is synonymous with good mental health, for sure; but this means more “existential courage”, she says, than “positive thinking”. And a long, hard stare into the face of truth can be distinctly bracing, like a cold shower, a good black joke, or one of Churchill’s speeches from 1940 promising nothing but blood, toil, tears and sweat. This was hardly accentuating the positive. But it worked.

Americans, in order to have a nice day, every day, have to consume two-thirds of the world’s antidepressants, along with all those burgers and that horrible “cheese”. And as well as gobbling Prozac, they have to lie to themselves a great deal. Life coaches counsel them to look in the mirror every morning and “make affirmations” such as “I am successful! I am beautiful! I love myself!” ...

More valuable still is health... She even heard fellow sufferers claim to love their cancer. “If I had to do it over, would I want breast cancer? Absolutely,” said one. “I am happier now than I have ever been in my life,” said another. To Ehrenreich, this was accentuating the positive to the point of insanity....

... Another pseudo-religion is the “prosperity gospel”: God wants you to be rich. .. Meanwhile, leading CEOs were going on shamanic healing journeys. “In a candlelit room thick with a haze of incense, 17 blindfolded captains of industry lay on towels, breathed deeply, and delved into the ‘lower world’ to the sound of a lone tribal drum.” Their guru was an urban shaman who had been to Harvard Business School, purveying a wisdom that was the bastard offspring of management-speak and hippie-think.

“American corporate culture had long ago abandoned the dreary rationality of professional management for the emotional thrills of mysticism, charisma and sudden intuitions,” explains Ehrenreich. Joe Gregory, former president of Lehman Brothers, was proud to describe himself as a “Feeler”. Often he’d do the exact opposite of what the analysts advised, on a “hunch”. “Anyone who voiced negativity was thrown out,” recalls one (non-Lehman) analyst, Steve Eisman.

... “Within the United States, any talk of intractable problems like poverty could be dismissed as a denial of America’s greatness.”

America is uniquely blessed by God. How can it possibly fail? But just as an unpleasantly boastful individual is often hiding deep insecurity, so is America....


http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/book
s/non-fiction/article6970699.ece




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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:05 AM

BYTEMITE


...Um...

Trying to reconcile "CEO" and "tribal drums" and it just ain't happening.

Personally, I think this is all a product of our consumer culture. All of these insecurities have been carefully cultivated so it induces people to spend more. It's Dove Soap's double-edged sword, beautiful photograph and television models to sell not only their product, but body image, and then their laughable program to improve the self-esteem of young girls.

Now pile our unrealistic expectations on what it takes to be attractive (as in attract a mate) with a 30% obesity rate, and suddenly not only are we making our own problems, but we're desperately trying to buy our way out of it.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I think imma need that in captain dummy talk, cause it completely lost me, maybe I need to chew on it a while, although one of Justins favorite snarks at me comes in response to your thread title.
Quote:

Every time you smile, I am reminded that in some cultures, the baring of teeth is a sign of aggression...

I think he's exaggerating, those donuts weren't exactly innocent.

-F

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:51 PM

BYTEMITE


Sig's post is about how Americans are over-medicated compared to other nations, more depressed, and more insecure, and the author was quite rightly belittling that the way Americans seem to cope with it is to want coddling and pills. And also more comfort food.

All of which I really think makes us more depressed, for the reasons I gave above. Also because it's an unfulfilling lifestyle, and because by insulating ourselves from anything we could use to improve ourselves in the interests of making ourselves feel good/better about ourselves, we only become selfish immature adults, incapable of positive self growth or awareness.

Dunno if that's much clearer, actually. Anyone else want a stab at it?

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Personally, I think this is all a product of our consumer culture. All of these insecurities have been carefully cultivated so it induces people to spend more. It's Dove Soap's double-edged sword, beautiful photograph and television models to sell not only their product, but body image, and then their laughable program to improve the self-esteem of young girls.

Yup, in spades.

But I think that's not "all", it goes deeper than that. Long before our society got so fucked up, the boastful sense of better than existed. Americans seem to have had that "Wild West" mentality right from the get-go; "we're different, we rock the boat, we've got this vast, rich land, so we're better than anyone else" or somesuch. The ego of America has long seemed to me just what Sig said: "just as an unpleasantly boastful individual is often hiding deep insecurity". Yup. We've had it good compared to the rest of the world, but we've had a bad sense of self-worth from the get-go; we've got no history, no ruins, no battles on our own soil, so we've got both insecurity and we consciously mask it with a "better than thou" mentality.

Comes along the industrial revolution, and everything Byte said contributes, and you get a society that can't bear to face the realities of the world, one who means well but with a skewed perspective. That's what I see.



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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:22 PM

BYTEMITE


Actually, I think we've had an abundance of battles on our soil, and most of them have been against technologically inferior foes, which has given us a superiority complex. I see a Woo Hoo Violence aspect to Americans. Every generation there's a war, and kids sign up saying Woo hoo, we're gonna get those Yankees/Rebels/Spanish/Germans/Nazis/Vietcong/Turbanheads (their words, not mine), and it takes a few battles and seeing people die to realize, hey, this isn't like playing cowboys/cops and robbers at home.

If we feel insecure in regards to other countries, it's because we're paranoid that we might be conquered or overtaken economically. We think it's the worst thing in the world that could happen to us.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Americans are, I think, extremely propagandized. And so, we run on faith b/c we must.

The system works. If you're not seeing the benefits now, just remember, in the long run this will all be for the best. This is just like nature intended. This is the greatest place on earth.

We will do anything, think anything, pretend anything in order to deny failure. Failure of our ideas, failure of our systems, failure of our national ego.

I think the seeds were planted in the 1950's. There was a certain dystopia to our utopia - is that all there is ? THIS is heaven on earth ? That's when valium was king, psychoanalysis got cache, the discontent of the middle class was fodder for authors. Rather than examine the country - hey ! WE won the war, WE are the best, WE are special (and anyone who disagrees is a commie) - we decided that the problem was our indvidual pathologies. Anything else was unthinkable. Or, at least due to the propaganda ministers, unpeakable.

Nothing was wrong with the system.

Throw the Age of Aquarius on top of that and you get a whole nation of magical thinkers. If you just believe hard enough you can fly. And we can ALL be rich.

Viola. Mass craziness.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I've been interested in self-esteem, depression, hypomania, delusion etc. ever since I read a study about 10 years ago that people who would be classified as "mildly depressed" by today's psychological standards were actually more realistic predicting outcomes that people who would be assessed at the ideal mental state. The author went on to say that in today's culture, people are expected to be hypomanic... just this side of manic. And so you have an economic system that tends to chew up peeps and spit them out, and on the other hand exhorts people to think positive. (!) I read this just yesterday

Youth now have more mental health issues
By MARTHA IRVINE
Monday, January 11, 2010

Quote:

CHICAGO -- A new study has found that five times as many high school and college students are dealing with anxiety and other mental health issues as youth of the same age who were studied in the Great Depression era.

The findings, culled from responses to a popular psychological questionnaire [MMPI] used as far back as 1938, confirm what counselors on campuses nationwide have long suspected as more students struggle with the stresses of school and life in general.

"It's another piece of the puzzle - that yes, this does seem to be a problem, that there are more young people who report anxiety and depression," says Jean Twenge, a San Diego State University psychology professor and the study's lead author. "The next question is: What do we do about it?"

Though the study, released Monday, does not provide a definitive correlation, Twenge and mental health professionals speculate that a popular culture increasingly focused on the external - from wealth to looks and status - has contributed to the uptick in mental health issues.



www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/11/AR20100111002
61_pf.html


Well, there's that. But there's also television- which has a depressive effect, no matter what the content. There's also the Progressive Atomization of Society- people now have fewer close friends than ever before. (Except the wealthy, who always hobnob with their kind.) Loss of family ties. I can think of LOTS of reason to be depressed, but it's all at the societal level, and can't be solved by the individual.

Except, of course, by taking a pill.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:49 PM

BYTEMITE


Pills aren't the solution. There's really not a whole lot of use for anti-depressants that actually make people more anxious or suicidal, or becoming so dependent upon a medication that if you miss one time during a day you completely lose control of your emotional state, rationality, or even experience psychosis. I only support pill use if they're necessary to keep someone stable while they work other things out.

I think people have to learn how to fix themselves, mental health wise and physically. It's definitely possible, but not by taking the easy way out, and not by relying on the old bullshit psychoanalysis crap where a psychiatrist helps you find other people to blame for your problems. And what problems you can't fix, you have to learn to live with.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh - uh - - - that was irony.

"I think people have to learn how to fix themselves, mental health wise and physically."

Well, yes, given that no one that I know of has grown up in a healthy family we all have our things that need fixing. And you're right - if we can.

BUT - you gotta' look at society too and say - this is crap I'm being put through. It's not always in your head. And it's not just your head that needs fixing.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Indeed. I don't think people need "fixing" I think society does, because it's society that's breaking people.

OTOH, sometimes the only way to continue putting one foot in front of another is antidepressants. And, if that leads someone to running for office or pushing for reform, so much the better....

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, true.

But for me, at least, most if not all of it is in my head, and it was a battle (and still is sometimes) to conquer it.

I think that there are people out there like me who were stuck in a kind of self-pity mode, not seeing the impact they're having on the people around them. And it's selfish, and they need to work on shifting their mindset, changing their lifestyle, whatever it takes to stop the damage. I have no idea if my depression was chemical or psychological, but I was able to fix it this way, and then in response a shift came in my personality, in my understanding and being able to relate to other people.

But if you're reliant on drugs, you don't see what changes need to be made. So you get stuck in a kind of drug depression limbo.

Technically I'm still suicidal, though that's mostly work and stress related, and not depression anymore. And I can tell the difference too, because the depression just permeates everything, and couldn't stop, and it made me want to die. Work related stress and suicidal thoughts are easy to deal with and aren't all the time.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:30 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I think that there are people out there like me who were stuck in a kind of self-pity mode ..."

The thought behind that - but what about ME ??? Generally comes about b/c one realizes that inclusion is being withheld. Family exclusion is extremly painful. I have a pretty good neurological study that even shows where in the brain the pain of social exclusion comes from. Just b/c a person isn't being hit doesn't mean they aren't exepriencing severe pain.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh... that.

I saw that for what it was when I was like, maybe ten, and it's a long list and combination of causes, an intricate and complex bit of social machinery I've been dumping sand in the gears of since I knew it existed - I just hadn't seen it put in those terms before.

Dunno much about solving it from that end, but I do know a lot about screwing with structures and systems bent on causing it *deliberately*...

When a problem is so much bigger than you are, it's generally best to concentrate on fixing what portion of it you understand well enough to have a chance at, is all.

ETA: I found my salvation from that in embracing the "crazy", Byte - frankly I would not WANT to be "sane" by the standards of this so-called society, and if being a little bit on the mad hatter side is what it takes to live with oneself, that's much better than twisting yourself into a mold someone without your best intentions in mind has cast for you - same thing as the whole body image issue, just on a mental scale.

-F

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:49 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. Well, in that case, I don't recommend my methods, because I don't think it would work for anyone else, because I had to accept not being included. It works for me because I've never had the same attachment ability as other people, and because I have no interest in romantic attachments.

My self discovery was learning that I'm not the center of the universe, or the smartest or best at anything, that hard work would not achieve that for me, so I should do work that I enjoy and that helps others. And in the process, I was finally able to appreciate the natural world and see the rest of the people on it as not being so bad, and I stopped being such a dick. I could see things from their perspective now, and I was able to respect and tolerate their opinions. In doing so, this freed me from feeling like I needed to fit in. This allows me to think and act outside of the box, and not be entirely sane, which is also a relief. I know who I am, and I've accepted myself, both virtues and faults.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:53 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Then you've achieved a lot.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just as an FYI, as a child I suffered from acute depression. Had nothing to do with my upbringing, as I felt loved, and I loved in return. It was all chemical, as far as I can tell, and runs (deeply) in the family. I climbed out without the help of meds... that was back in the stone age, before there were any such things as antidepressants. The changes I made were not YOUR changes, BYTE... I wish they had been, I would have learned a lot!... but I did learn some valuable lessons.

Depression didn't come back into my life until I was struggling, more or less simulatneously, with a MIL dying a cancer (in hospice care in our home), a husband with prostate cancer and Meniere's disease (and a scary temper to boot, from steriods), and a young daughter who was sinking into mutism and dementia bc of uncontrolled seizures.

Now, in any CARING society I might have had support... but there I was, struggling with a demanding full-time job; strung out on about 4 hours of sleep a night; busting my butt on a experimental treatment for our daughter which was only partially working; listening to scary harangues from hubby; and watching my MIL circle the drain... and the only help I got was from Rue. (THANK YOU, RUE! BTW, if anyone doubts that Rue knows how to deal with children.. especially heartbreaking children... well, you just don't know Rue! That is when we got to know each other really well.)

S'wenyways... even after the situation became less dire I found myself daydreaming about getting in a car accident (Because I could rest in a hospital bed, you see!) and struggling just to do simple simple stuff like dishwashing... a sympathetic doctor figured out I was depressed, and put me on meds- praise Jeebus!- which I still need from time to time, just to keep going in this effed up society. I think I have a pretty clear-headed view of depression, and I know that in a lot of cases it's exogenous.

There IS an evolutionary advantage to depression BTW. Because if you've banged your head against a wall for a number of months, and nothing you do seems to help... sometimes the best answer really IS to crawl into a hole and wait for things to get better. Those people might survive longer than others who keep expending energy in a hopeless situation. And that is why depression survives as a psychological trait to this very day.

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Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:53 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Awwww shucks ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:00 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Americans are, I think, extremely propagandized. And so, we run on faith b/c we must.

The system works. If you're not seeing the benefits now, just remember, in the long run this will all be for the best. This is just like nature intended. This is the greatest place on earth.

We will do anything, think anything, pretend anything in order to deny failure. Failure of our ideas, failure of our systems, failure of our national ego.

I think the seeds were planted in the 1950's. There was a certain dystopia to our utopia - is that all there is ? THIS is heaven on earth ? That's when valium was king, psychoanalysis got cache, the discontent of the middle class was fodder for authors. Rather than examine the country - hey ! WE won the war, WE are the best, WE are special (and anyone who disagrees is a commie) - we decided that the problem was our indvidual pathologies. Anything else was unthinkable. Or, at least due to the propaganda ministers, unpeakable.

Nothing was wrong with the system.

Throw the Age of Aquarius on top of that and you get a whole nation of magical thinkers. If you just believe hard enough you can fly. And we can ALL be rich.

Viola. Mass craziness.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Matsu (while eating his own legs):
"I must stay and try to enjoy myself."
Dollhouse - "The Attic"


--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Drugs are a tricky question. First off: their over-use has me righteously pissed off, and I'm a bear for saying on the mental health sites that "drugs are only one step; self-education and striving for self-awareness are just as important".

But there are those of us in the bipolar community--and I have no doubt in the schizophrenic as well, who NEED drugs to function. I firmly believe we can get to the point to where we either don't need them or can get them down to a bare minimum, but I've seen too many horror stories of people who went off their meds to believe otherwise. Nice people, smart people, GOOD people.

And I disagree that meds keep us from growing. It was NOT being on meds that kept me from seeing myself and doing any changing; once ON meds, I didn't have to deal with all the shit and could do a lot of work that helped me change. It's an argument we have and always will in the mental health community. Nobody there WANTS to be on meds, but for some of us it's a necessity, hopefully as only the first step...

I've gotten mine down to a bare minimum, but don't think I'd try to do without completely...what I had before meds was NOT something I want to go back to!

On the other hand, over-prescription of things like ritalin and ALL the benzodiazipines, is something I abhor, and any doctor who KEEPS patients on them long-term (unless there's absolutely NO choice), well...



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Sunday, January 17, 2010 12:23 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:


If we feel insecure in regards to other countries, it's because we're paranoid that we might be conquered or overtaken economically. We think it's the worst thing in the world that could happen to us.



I thought it was more likely a guilty conscience



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 2:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Americans for the most part don't have a guilty conscience. Too arrogant. Most people in the government are almost certain that they're doing the right thing, and damn the ethical dilemmas.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Americans are, I think, extremely propagandized. And so, we run on faith b/c we must.

The system works. If you're not seeing the benefits now, just remember, in the long run this will all be for the best. This is just like nature intended. This is the greatest place on earth.

We will do anything, think anything, pretend anything in order to deny failure. Failure of our ideas, failure of our systems, failure of our national ego.

I think the seeds were planted in the 1950's. There was a certain dystopia to our utopia - is that all there is ? THIS is heaven on earth ? That's when valium was king, psychoanalysis got cache, the discontent of the middle class was fodder for authors. Rather than examine the country - hey ! WE won the war, WE are the best, WE are special (and anyone who disagrees is a commie) - we decided that the problem was our indvidual pathologies. Anything else was unthinkable. Or, at least due to the propaganda ministers, unpeakable.

Nothing was wrong with the system.

Throw the Age of Aquarius on top of that and you get a whole nation of magical thinkers. If you just believe hard enough you can fly. And we can ALL be rich.

Viola. Mass craziness.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Late to the game on this one, and just catching up, but Rue, I think you forgot something.

"The system works. If you're not seeing the benefits now..."

...you're just not trying hard enough!

Isn't that what we've been taught all our lives?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA



That one's all about the money, Niki.

Treatment plans cost money, long term prescriptions where you can bill follow ups at an hour-plus for ten minutes of consultation and a half hour of prideful bullshitting, that's income, don't ya know...

Proper use of meds is to mitigate symptoms while you work on the root problem, but outside of Perry's folk I've not seen that much in practice, especially when docs go using a friggin front-loaded checklist, if even that, with these Ritalin scrips (talkin about YOU, Bacharach!) when it's a known fact that proper diagnosis of a behavioral disorder takes a minimum of ninety minutes observation in a controlled environment - and most doctors wouldn't even really know what to LOOK for even then.

I've noticed a great majority of childrens so-called "issues" are in fact projected by their parents, but when they're the ones payin the bill, the folks doin the billing are less inclined to argue with em, and when it's control issues in question, wellll....

The rare few times I've hadda deal oppositionally with the supportive-but-incompetent parent of one of the kids we've helped I tell it to em straight - help me by getting the hell out of the way so I can do this, or by getting help yourself - right up front, no bullshit, which to my surprise has worked in every single case but one.

I think it's grossly negligent of a doctor to fudge his diagnosis for a patient or that patients guardian no matter WHAT the incentives are, and they oughta be held liable for it - seriously, it's practically the definition of malpractice, innit ?

-F

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 6:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Great topic and agree a lot with what posters here have been saying. Some of these issues are very close to my heart.

BTW I don't think you can call it a specifically American problem. Most of the issues you have raised are in existence in any western affluent country. It's just that you seem to be leading the way and a bit further ahead on the 'help, we've fucked up bad' scale.

As other posters have indicated, consumer culture, the cult of the individual, dare I say it, many technological advances, and an over populated resource limited planet have probably all contributed. I don't believe it's a conspiracy. No one planned for us to be so screwy, it's just that we seemed to have developed a lifestyle that doesn't suit us psychologically.

I do think that we have pathologised a lot of behaviours and emotions as being symptoms of mental illness, when they are not. I also think Americans do that a bit more than most, having read a lot from America on Learned Optimism, and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, and have done many of the screenings, I usually come off with strong indications of depression on one of my good days, and a 'seek help immediately' on a bad one. I don't, of course, because I see myself as a normally functioning person who has good and bad patches in her life and responds accordingly.

Feeling sad, unhappy, angry, despair, anxious and hopeless are all part of the rich tapestry of the human experience, albeit unpleasant when you are experiencing them, yet when we experience them, we are warned about the health hazards of these feelings, and often medicated. One of my biggest gripes is the diagnosis and medication of children for behvioural problems, which are often simply symptoms of other family dysfunction, environmental factors or unrealistic and ignorant expectations about children's behaviour. To all the early years teachers out there - most young children, especially boys, will not sit still and listen and work for any extended period of time!!!

As Niki says, some medication is useful, particularly when managing mental illnesses such as bi-polar, schizophrenia and severe depression. I've seen medication make a big difference to peoples lives.

But generally, I think we are into lazy quick fixes - unhappy - take a pill. Fat - get it cut off. Relationship problems - take some viagra.

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Mon, April 22, 2024 20:30 - 799 posts
FACTS
Mon, April 22, 2024 20:10 - 552 posts
Pardon Me? Michael Avenatti Flips, Willing To Testify On Trump's Behalf
Mon, April 22, 2024 19:16 - 8 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Mon, April 22, 2024 17:47 - 1010 posts
Case against Sidney Powell, 2020 case lawyer, is dismissed
Mon, April 22, 2024 17:13 - 5 posts
I agree with everything you said, but don't tell anyone I said that
Mon, April 22, 2024 16:15 - 16 posts
BREAKING NEWS: Taylor Swift has a lot of ex-boyfriends
Mon, April 22, 2024 12:27 - 2 posts
Dow Nearing 30K. Time For You To Jump Off?
Mon, April 22, 2024 12:22 - 107 posts
The Washington Times: Bill Maher says the silent part out loud: Abortion is murder
Mon, April 22, 2024 03:57 - 13 posts

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