It's early yet, but I was struck by what usually strikes me: there are nine threads active so far today, six of them PN's. Higher than his usual count. ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Seven of Nine

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:14
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2272
PAGE 1 of 2

Monday, December 21, 2009 7:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's early yet, but I was struck by what usually strikes me: there are nine threads active so far today, six of them PN's. Higher than his usual count. Someone on my website posted this:
Quote:

Human argumentation is at the center of recent (and less recent) psychological work. We are learning a lot about our ability to argue. But the motivation behind human arguing is less well known. What makes us want to argue back at other people, even when we know they won't be convinced ? Internet Trolls know a few answers to that question.

A few weeks ago, the web was all abuzz about with one of those stories people are so fond of discussing online. A Canadian woman, who couldn't work because of a depression, lost her sick-leave benefits over a few photographs that were displayed on Facebook. She was smiling on the photographs. The anecdote provoked widespread outrage and rekindled the endless debate over Internet privacy.

But the story in itself did not interest Steve that much. Where other people see a scandal, Steve sees an opportunity for fun. That night, he logged himself on a forum devoted to discussing the condition and problems of depressive people - one among a dozen medical forums where Steve, under a variety of aliases, is a regular. He quickly spotted the thread where the Facebook scandal was being discussed, licked his lips, and began typing something like this:

"It serves her right, if you ask me. You can't defraud insurance companies and think of yourself as a responsible person. It's not the victimless crime it appears to be. Depression is not a real disease anyways."

He clicked 'Send', and waited for the angry reactions to pour in. He did not wait long: people rarely refrain from biting on Steve's baits. He relished every minute of the argument, every insult, every pathetic attempt at counter-arguing - and shared it all with friends over Skype. When the outrage abated, Steve poked the conversation back into existence with a few nasty comments about lazy depressed jobless people funding their parasitic lifestyle with taxpayers' money. It did not take long before the fun was back. When Steve grew bored with infuriating depressed websurfers, he might have gone nagging at a forum of semi-literate teenage girls, heaping trash on Twilight 2, with similar success. Or perhaps he just discussed the night's achievements with a couple of appreciative colleagues.

Steve and thousands like him look for trouble on the Internet. Every night, many hours a night, Steve haunts forums - and he spoils discussion after discussion. His arguments span all the range of conversational perversion: from childish insult to intricate accusation, from in-your-face provocation to subtle insinuation, from blatant non sequitur to elaborate sophistry. For Steve is a conversation hacker, or, as they are better known, a Troll.

PN doesn't fit this pattern, in that he posts insane, incindiary threads from the very start, rather than interrupting a conversation (tho' he does that sometimes too). Nonetheless, it fits.

Whatever his motivation, and some have said they know it conclusively, I wish there were a way to stop him from slathering the topic list with idiocy...obviously the answer is to ignore his "creations" and for more people to post actual, real-world topics. But that doesn't seem to happen. Are we lazy? Do we have little else to talk about? Do we enjoy joining PN's idiotic discussions? If he bothers us so, why do we participate? I don't know the answers; I just wish I could come here and glance through the list of whatever people have posted today without having to skip all the offensive, ridiculous crap he throws up on us.

That's just a vent...it got to me this morning. No response necessary; I don't want to start a whole thread on the subject, as many are devoted to it on a regular basis as it is. Maybe I just wanted to put up something that wasn't a PN raving, to more even the score of threads. Dunno, just got pissed I guess.










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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


PN sometimes gets it right.

His posts can be off the wall, but every so often he nails it.

See the postings about the DC snowball fight, or the Israeli use of white phosphorus.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Fine, if he'd post a few times a day. My major complaint is that he floods the list with so many deranged ravings. And it would be nice if they weren't so brutishly racist and ugly, but that's probably too much to wish.




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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:14 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
www.whale.to/m/disin.html

#26 Post photos of puppies. Everybody loves puppies. This will give you the appearance of being human. (evil laff)

Robot Psyops Make Human Liars Obsolete
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/18/military_robot_psyops

UNited States Air Force Cyber Command
http://www.afcyber.af.mil




www.september911surprise.com
www.myspace.com/countercoup

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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


He's up to eight out of fifteen so far today. One person. Mostly bullshit. Need I say more? No.




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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"And it would be nice if they weren't so brutishly racist and ugly..."

Sweetie, what world do you live in?

Things ARE brutishly racist and ugly.

The point is to fight that.

But, NOT by giving power to those who would control us. It might be naieve to say this, but I think MOST people just want to live and let live.

However, when you try to force control on people...


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Monday, December 21, 2009 8:23 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Niki2: So you're admitting you have nothing intelligent to say about anything in the Real World, thus cannot start your own RWED threads?

That's pretty lame.

You have no comments on Brittany's death by flu meds, robot psyops, cops and courts run amok, punching politicians?

Do you really want to pay a global income tax to a global government that trumps all national governments, for "global warming" when the Earth has been cooling for 10 years? BTW paying a TAX to a BANKER does nothing about "global warming". How about a national income tax paid to private insurance companies, so executives can pay themselves $200,000 PER WEEK PER PERSON?





I love those drag racin bubblegum cards.


http://www.bigdaddyroth.com

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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Responding to change title back to it's original form. Nobody's trying to "force" anything. I vented my feelings of disgust.

But I see all it's sufficed to do is give a further platform to PN and his cronies (and yes, Wulf, you're often not far behind being called a troll yourself, in my opinion). I live in the real world, which is not entirely brutish and ugly; you live in your own world filled with violence, pseudo-heroes and fantasies.

I've started numerous threads on thoughtful topics. I won't waste any more time defending myself against jackass comments to people who are lacking in any decency...So I won't participate further.




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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki,

THIS response is what I get for being gentle with you?

And you whinge about me being "brutish".

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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:25 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hi Niki,

I appreciate how thoughtful you are in your every post. You always seem to post with some concept that you're trying to work out and looking for collaboration in that process.

A few issues come to mind in response to your questioning here. Why do folk continue to engage with people or arguments they ostensibly do not wish to, or worse, know they cannot possibly influence or win? I'd say the top 3 culprits are: weak boundaries, low self-esteem and entitlement. Weaknesses in our own boundaries lead to compulsive responses to the comments of other people as if they were part of our own process. Where our boundaries are weakest we let the thoughts and comments of others determine our own. We can't seem to let the other person's comments, their nasty opinions just sit there as the inert array of information that they are. We feel a need to balance some scale, we need to "set the record straight." If someone posts brutish, antisemitic rants, we somehow feel that we are required to "fix" this somehow. Why do we feel that need when the outcome is so obviously out of our hands?

Prolly boils down to issues we have with our own self-worth, the compulsion to repeat an unsatisfactory relationship, rather than grieve our ancient losses and find new, more satisfying engagements. We feel disempowered by the other's nasty thoughts, we feel it as an attack that must be defended, even though the real battle has long ago been lost. Are we really so shocked by the troll's ugly thoughts? Do we really think we can reach the unreachable, connect with the unavailable?

It's pretty common adult behavior to try to win the battles we lost long ago as children, to finally get "them" to admit that they are evil, evil, evil and we are right, right, right! It's an eternal battle for dominance that children will always lose, so when we grow up, we spend our lives seeking revenge and vindication.

(Tragically, for so many folk, the only such battles for dominance we can really "win" are with our own children...and so the cycle repeats itself.)

When you get right down to it, we somehow feel entitled to a world where no one can remind us of our ungrieved wounds, no one can remind us that the world is broken, imperfect, the damage is done. We feel entitled to a RWED without any PN's to muck it up and remind us how little power we really have over other human beings. THE ONLY REASON PN WILL EVER STOP POSTING IS IF HE DECIDES NOT TO. How are you contributing to that decision, helping him to reach it? And if you're not contributing to that outcome, the outcome you claim to desire, why then do you persist?

Ultimately, I think folk are a lot more alike than we're different. Just as PN is shadow boxing with ancient wrongs he's suffered as a child, projecting them onto all and sundry to satisfy his quixotic thirst for revenge, so too, his detractors on this board are locked in an ancient unwinnable struggle with the cruelty and contempt we've all suffered.

Let it go. Let PN go. Recognize that there is room in the world for all of us and focus your energies on the battles you truly can win, and on the connections that truly can be made.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:38 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

If someone posts brutish, antisemitic rants, we somehow feel that we are required to "fix" this somehow.



Do you support the Neverending Wars against Arabs by Obama/Bush? Why do you love genocide of 2.6-million Arab Semites? Especially when it bankrupts your own nation and kills 10,000s of US troops?

If so that makes one an antisemite, as defined in all dictionaries.

I fight antisemitism by fighting the bogus Wars On Semites in Iraq etc. For that I'm accused by illiterates as "antisemtic".

Thy Jedi mindfraks won't work on me.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:40 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I vented my feelings of disgust.



Why do you love genocide of 2.6-million Arab Semites? Do you love killing babies, children and wedding parties full of Semites?


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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I will respond to you, Wulf:
Quote:

I live in the real world, which is not entirely brutish and ugly; you live in your own world filled with violence, pseudo-heroes and fantasies.
I spoke nothing but the truth as I have observed it. It has nothing to do with your remarks to me, except insofar as you telling me I don't live in the "real world". I saw no "gentleness".

Cavalier...sigh...
Quote:

We feel a need to balance some scale, we need to "set the record straight." If someone posts brutish, antisemitic rants, we somehow feel that we are required to "fix" this somehow. Why do we feel that need when the outcome is so obviously out of our hands?

It's pretty common adult behavior to try to win the battles we lost long ago as children, to finally get "them" to admit that they are evil, evil, evil and we are right, right, right! It's an eternal battle for dominance that children will always lose, so when we grow up, we spend our lives seeking revenge and vindication.

Ouch. Unfortunately, "right on". I don't think it's about my self-worth, but I can easily see still fighting battles I lost as a child, and you nailed that. I was going to joke after reading that first sentence "yeah, I'm a Libra...while I disagree with a lot of astrology, I was surprised to see myself in that one"...but you're right, it goes deeper. My mother infected me in so many ways, and that's one of them. I've fought hard for some 45 years to overcome her indoctrination and messages, once I saw them, but maybe with some maybe we can never win the battle.

I usually don't respond to PN and am only irritated by his slathering the thread list and his ugly racism, but I certainly do respond to others out of exactly what you pointed out. Something I keep trying to overcome, but seems to be a hard-wired pattern.

As to PN, as usual I didn't read your comments; when it comes to anything you have to say, well...it's always predictable, so if I bother,




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Monday, December 21, 2009 10:04 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I've started numerous threads on thoughtful topics. I won't waste any more time defending myself against jackass comments to people who are lacking in any decency...So I won't participate fuhrer.




Is that a promise ? Pretty please ?

'Cause this one of yours wasn't very thoughtful , and certainly wasn't at all 'decent' :

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.




http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41153

Permaybehaps Niki may wish to 'rant' and 'rave' less , offer less in the way of 'opinions' , and dig up an occasional fact...

Though 'your vessel' is full , your 'fire' remains unlit...

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Monday, December 21, 2009 10:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I clearly said I TRY, and fail more than I succeed. But your statement in that thread DID have nothing to do with reality, and WAS nasty:
Quote:

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?
Sometimes I give as I get, and you posted my reply; it speaks for itself.

And yes, I have posted numerous topics, some on Afghanistan, others on different issues. Ask anyone who's been paying attention and they'll tell you. I'll try to post more stuff that might be of interest; maybe if I'm sick of PN's slathering and suggest others post other things, I should start by doing it more myself.

I just saw the rest of your reply; perhaps those who speak of other's lack of civility should try some themselves, eh wot? I "rant and rave" far less than many here, attempt to offer facts and links as much as I can, and don't get involved in the personal battles as much as some, and yes, my view is colored by certain people's past postings, yours among them. Expectation can cloud one's vision of things, but I have to say, you rarely surprise me.




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Monday, December 21, 2009 10:43 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I clearly said I TRY, and fail more than I succeed. But your statement in that thread DID have nothing to do with reality, and WAS nasty:
Quote:

For Folk permaybehaps wondering about the motive for this present war in AFbamaScam , check out this google search result :

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cheney+pipeline+Afghanistan&sourceid=ie
7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8


Interesting reading , should hold Folk for a few ticks...Poly-ticks...Many bloodsuckers...

Sometimes I give as I get, and you posted my reply; it speaks for itself.




Nothing 'nasty' about discussing the REALITY of Cheney/KBR's/Halliburton's/Unocal's pipeline in AfBamaScam , but this was your response :

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.




Then you came in with this :


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?
Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.




Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I just saw the rest of your reply; perhaps those who speak of other's lack of civility should try some themselves, eh wot? I "rant and rave" far less than many here, attempt to offer facts and links as much as I can, and don't get involved in the personal battles as much as some...




Indeed , DO TRY some of your much-vaunted civility , as you DO indulge in the personal attack...

And , you're in way over your head...

Take your medicine .

You're digging the hole ever deeper...And , you're a liar , a NASTY Liar...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41153






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Monday, December 21, 2009 11:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You're beginning to behave like a troll, and I'm quitting after this.

You know precisely which post I was responding to. Not your link; as I responded to that, most people (at least HERE) know the reasons we're in Afghanistan. Was a response to your remark that people wondering about the motive. You THEN responded with the snark about why I was asking questions if I knew the answers...and given I'd asked no questions and it was a nasty crack, I responded as I did.

I'm not taking the bait again. Changing what I quoted directly above is the lie to make it seem I was nasty in response to your initial post, and is sadly obvious. The back and forth in the actual thread, which shows the chronological exchange and that my initial reply wasn't nasty at all, speaks for itself.

Very trollish; have fun and goodbye.




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Monday, December 21, 2009 11:06 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
You're beginning to behave like a troll, and I'm quitting after this.

You know precisely which post I was responding to. Not your link; as I responded to that, most people (at least HERE) know the reasons we're in Afghanistan. Was a response to your remark that people wondering about the motive. You THEN responded with the snark about why I was asking questions if I knew the answers...and given I'd asked no questions and it was a nasty crack, I responded as I did.

I'm not taking the bait again. Changing what I quoted directly above is the lie to make it seem I was nasty in response to your initial post, and is sadly obvious. The back and forth in the actual thread, which shows the chronological exchange and that my initial reply wasn't nasty at all, speaks for itself.

Very trollish; have fun and goodbye.




Well , we've got that in WRITING , is it a Promise this time ? Good Riddance , too...

So , NOW you've gone on to being Slanderous , in addition to a plain old NASTY Liar ?

All I did was post a search for Facts about the motive for being in Afghanistan , but you just dissed and dismissed it...Even a LOT of the boys and girls spilling blood there don't know why , but you just want to pass on by that , and insist that MOST folk know all that already ?

Like I said , the facts and the posts speak for themselves , but you don't wanna discuss FACTS , you just want to spam the board with your irrelevancies...

You can't quit now...First you have to get out of your hole...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41153

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Monday, December 21, 2009 2:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Bah, just ignore em when they're being petty little children, is all.

When one of em posts something worth comment, rare that it is, is about the only time I'd bother.

It does disgust me as well, however, watching these pissants show their GIFT for all to see.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

Whinin to themselves don't bug me, deliberately wrecking actual discussion does.

-F

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Monday, December 21, 2009 2:35 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Bah, just ignore em when they're being petty little children, is all.

When one of em posts something worth comment, rare that it is, is about the only time I'd bother.

...Whinin to themselves don't bug me, deliberately wrecking actual discussion does.

-F



Points taken...Folk know she came here carping about Folk on another board not playin' nice...

What's this , 1 of 3 threads she's started lately about the Afghan/Pak theater ? If one don't go her way , she beats her noggin' against another wall...

No wonder they won't let poor Niki join in the reindeer games ; initially she took a higher road , but when it became apparent that P-N and some others weren't her cuppa , she joined right in with what she supposedly deplored elsewhere...

Karma's a bitch...

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Monday, December 21, 2009 2:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Out2B: Maybe if you little pissants didn't junk up threads with your bile, we could have an actual discussion.

So far we got three avenues of conversation, which are three seperate topics, Afghan culture, our presence and the war there, and the wider and more global effects of such intervention within the international community, all good and useful topics, which are best addressed at least semi-seperately.

And I've been nice, so far - but this personal attack bullshit is over the line, it contributes utterly nothing, and makes the few decent points you have offered useless because you've demeaned yourself to where even if you got a point, it's lost in folks very rightful and correct viewpoint of you as a nasty little pissant with naught to contribute but slime.

You wanna discuss, discuss, you wanna throw shit, go find somewhere more appropriate to do it.

-F

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Monday, December 21, 2009 2:52 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hee, hee, hee, Frem...I liked that so much I gotta post it(thank you for my best chortle of the day). It's just too right on!
Quote:

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

First given a name by the boys at Penny Arcade, it is a theory that seeks to illuminate why people seem to degenerate into antisocial jerks online, when many are only mildly unpleasant in-person.

The equation, illustrated here is basically:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad

This phenomenon has been studied in an academic setting, and by all accounts PA's satirical analysis is spot-on; normal people seem to degenerate when they think that their behavior carries no real-world consequences. Hence the number of people who think that being a Troll is funny. The academic name of the phenomenon is the Online Disinhibition Effect, but even leading researchers use GIFT outside the trade journals.

In short: the relative anonymity of the internet allows people to be complete and utter bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. An extreme real-life example (and probably a cause) of this might be the Lucifer Effect.

The idea that anonymity and lack of consequences leads to irresistible corruption was proposed by Plato in The Republic where he recounts the myth of the Ring of Gyges, making it Older Than Feudalism. Perhaps better known is the book The Invisible Man which follows a similar premise but is more recent.

However, as Soul Coughing said, correlation is not causation: it should also be noted that people who genuinely are Jerk Asses in real life are more likely to hang out on the Internet, because, y'know, nobody who knows them would want to spend any time at all with them. There's still a greater chance that even actual Jerkasses will moderate their behaviour more in face-to-face social settings rather than online, if only because there's a greater chance of someone punching them in the face if they go too far in the former setting.






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Monday, December 21, 2009 2:57 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Folk know she came here carping about Folk on another board not playin' nice...

What's this , 1 of 3 threads she's started lately about the Afghan/Pak theater ? If one don't go her way , she beats her noggin' against another wall...

No wonder they won't let poor Niki join in the reindeer games ; initially she took a higher road , but when it became apparent that P-N and some others weren't her cuppa , she joined right in with what she supposedly deplored elsewhere...

Karma's a bitch...


I'm just chimin' in here to give you some feedback. This assessment of Niki, though scathing, is completely distorted. The subject of the Afghan war certainly merits multiple threads and Niki's are all on different issues. You know that. You seem to take pleasure in her troubles, pleasure in imagining further ridiculous troubles for her. I just can't work up that level of spite for a complete stranger.

Kinda funny how so many posts in these backs and forth could simply be replaced with one or two sentences: "I don't like you!" and "I don't like you, either!"

Carry on.

(Crossposted with Frem...great minds and such...)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 21, 2009 3:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

And yes, I have posted numerous topics, some on Afghanistan, others on different issues.



Is your family CIA, or some other intel agency?

(State Dept, DEA = CIA)

All Afghan topics are welcome and educational, either way.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

First given a name by the boys at Penny Arcade, it is a theory that seeks to illuminate...



Are you Illuminati? Or just a...?


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Monday, December 21, 2009 3:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

people seem to degenerate when they think that their behavior carries no real-world consequences.

Actually that hooks up to my Kropotkinist belief and the whole concept of how Character is what you are in the dark...

I truly feel that if you really wanna take the measure of a person, you needn't hold them over a volcano a'la Shuan Yu - simply remove ALL consequence from their actions, positive *AND* negative, and then watch what they do.

It was upon exploring this theory personally in my youth that I discovered that one of the things preventing me from helping some folk I really wanted to help, was that it was unlawful to do so, and I did not wish to suffer the negative consequences of helping them - which lead me to question the law, which lead down the merry path to the Anarchist sumbitch I am today.

That's why the old stories about how power corrupts don't hold water so much with me, cause they never removed the positive consequences, which leads things invariably down that path, you see ?

You remove ALL consequence, remove reaction from effect, and then you learn the truth of a person, as I pointed out, for me a lot of simple decencies are so automatic I don't even remembr them, Wendy had to remind me about the milkshake thing cause it had completely passed beneath my notice.

Who you are is what you DO.

-F

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:00 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


So Nikovich, are you or your family employees of Mossad, CIA, "State" Dept, or any other intel agency?

Presumably you're kosher, so tell us about the jewish religions of Torah, paganism, witchcraft, atheism, fascism and Communism. What's the inside scoop on Khazaria?

How about your family's history in Eastern Europe? Should be some stories to tell. My friend from Latvia had a horrific yet exciting tale of life in the Underground, escaping the Commies and Nazis to immigrate to USA in WW2. Now his kid's a doctor (other is a stripper).

You wanted to talk about me, but you sound far more interesting.

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:43 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
...And I've been nice, so far - but this personal attack bullshit is over the line, it contributes utterly nothing...

You wanna discuss, discuss, you wanna throw shit, go find somewhere more appropriate to do it.

-F



You're gorramned right it's over the line .

You joining in on an argument that wasn't yours to begin with is also over the line . Lessee , Niki calls me an @$$hole , C-word Cit calls me the C-word ,
then you show up claiming to take the high-road , talking about throwing Sh!+ , and here you call me a 'pissant' .

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41153

Well , that reveals much about your supposed 'character'...It's even more ironic when you claim someone else to be spoiling the 'discussion' .

If you want to put out a fire , it might be best to bring something besides gasoline...

Reasonable and intelligent Folk know that , though...

" Who you are is what you DO." Indeed .

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:49 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
So Nikovich, are you or your family employees of Mossad, CIA, "State" Dept, or any other intel agency?

Presumably you're kosher, so tell us about the jewish religions of Torah, paganism, witchcraft, atheism, fascism and Communism. What's the inside scoop on Khazaria?



Nikovich is busily ConSulting the Kabbala on those issues...Nikovich will get back to you on that...

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
So Nikovich, are you or your family employees of Mossad, CIA, "State" Dept, or any other intel agency?

Presumably you're kosher, so tell us about the jewish religions of Torah, paganism, witchcraft, atheism, fascism and Communism. What's the inside scoop on Khazaria?

How about your family's history in Eastern Europe? Should be some stories to tell. My friend from Latvia had a horrific yet exciting tale of life in the Underground, escaping the Commies and Nazis to immigrate to USA in WW2. Now his kid's a doctor (other is a stripper).

You wanted to talk about me, but you sound far more interesting.



Aren't YOU the one that used to work for the gubmint? At least, according to YOU, you were. Remember, you were allegedly supposed to nuke Western Europe for the "USSA".

And isn't your family part of the whole corrupt regime in your pissant little burg in the backwoods of Tennessee? Seems you're much closer to the corruption and infighting inside the system, so maybe it's YOUR credentials as an operative we should be looking into, yes? Are you a Communist agent, John? You certainly ACT like a disinformationalist! Especially with all your various screen names around here, all of whom are apparently at war with one another. PirateNews, PirateCat, Piraticipant, Jayneztown, and more... they're all YOU underneath!

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


Mike,

I'm disappointed. I thought you would have nailed this one, rather than get caught up in the brawl.

A couple people here had points: Frem, yes, we are, and I'd say that a fair number of us here are completely who we are, I'm not sure that this makes us the smart ones. But I have to point out you slipped up here:
Quote:

Bah, just ignore em when they're being petty little children, is all.

you used the term children in a demeaning manner ;)
sorry, everyone is a target, right? I think some guy I know online told me that.

O2tb would be the other person here with a point: Niki is often on the personal attack. I try to be fair to her because, like PN, she has things to say, but at risk of offending both, I think they're very alike: They're primarily in the propaganda business, and post far too much content for anyone to even care to read. The goal here is (links included: remember when niki demanded everyone read a self-published book?) To bombard people with so much information that they cave under the weight and concede the argument.

The other side, is that either is capable of meaningful discussion.

Now, no one mentioned that John's links are PR pigeon bait. This is of course the underlying truth, which means that the initial personal attack of Niki's is incorrect. When John debates, he debates, when he spams, he's doing SEO off of Haken's back, and a Haken doesn't seem to care, neither should we. But there's really no reason to take any post which is a PR pigeon peck for SEO as a serious argument about anything, and yes, Frem, should be ignored.

But let's be fair, both John and Niki are in the carpetbombing business.

Now, Mike, sure, John is an ex-govt. employee, but don't insult the south, it's tacky. You'll actually find some of the govt's strongest opponents are ex-employees, including a large number of people here, and I'm not about to start naming them.

Now, finally, o2tb, and also wulf

Yeah, sure, people in the past have whacked you over the head. It happens. It's happened to all of this. When I first joined this board the first response I got was "Which asshole is this troll a sockpuppet for?" That was followed by a number of guesses, but the posters then retracted those posts with the edit feature when it became clear I was an actual new user. Nice welcome? Well, it happens from time to time, particularly when you post something that offends someone or is just fucking moronic which we all do. Small word of advice:

Get over it.

The past is the past. Sure, Niki doesn't deserve any moral high ground, probably half her threads, this one included are personal attacks. That just discredits Niki, not anyone else. Ignore it. She's called me some choice things in the past and might in response to this reply, but here's a tip, so...


Niki,

If you don't want to be classified along side PN, then stop competing for the spot. Stick to rational arguments.

Notice the amount of viceral attacks that get thrown at Kathy? Oh, that right, you don't, because there aren't any.

Rue can be opinionated, obnoxious, and sometimes out and out wrong. But she is just debating topics. She's not info-bombing, attacking, or doing anything other than being opinionated and occassionally wrong, and also occassionally insightful and really on target. So, the enemies of Rue are few and far between.

Sometimes this is you too, but sometimes, you're the text only version of PN's evil twin, or good twin, or anti-twin, or whatever, but it most definitely leaves you wide open for attack. You're almost begging for attack, which, incidentally, is what really defines a troll. Just don't engage in the PN carpet bombing, and skip the personal attacks and people will take you seriously.

Sure, there are people who never contradict you, but those are people who already agree with you. If you want to preach to the choir, go ahead.

But just ask yourself this: How many Jewish members of the forum are won over by Pirate News' arguments? Anyone come up with "Zero"?

Thought so.

Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out that this is a personal attack thread in which you're complaining about personal attacks while, personally, I can't see a lot of difference between the two of you. IMHO, Decide what you want to get in terms of responses, and rethink your methods accordingly.

Also, bear in mind that PN doesn't really care what people think of his long posts, they're done for purely technical reasons. If he wants to be heard, he makes his post very short.

Something I myself need to learn to do. We all could.

Peace out, everyone, IOW, sorry if I'm not going to be checking in to hear the follow ups on this, because I swore off personal attack threads a long time ago, I just wanted people to be aware of when they were either engaging in same, or getting caught up in it.


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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You probably won’t read this, and I know why. I’m learning. For the same reason you never responded to your assault on me revolving around one statement by me which you characterized thereafter as a personal attack and many other nasty things. When challenged, you claimed lack of time and illness, and disappeared from the thread, only to post a long rambling thread about information technology, and ever since to come back and go after me again and again in others.

Nonetheless, this is a helluvan assault post and I am going to reply. Butting in to speak your piece in such a nasty fashion then claiming you won’t return because you “swore off personal attack threads a long time ago” is an amazing thing to do. Given the length of your negative judgments to and about me, it would be a civil act to read my response. But I don't expect it.

A fair person, making such a nasty personal onslaught on someone as you took quite some time to make on me here and there, would have the decency to read the responses, but it’s becoming increasingly clear that you seem to feel it’s fair to give it out, but not be willing to even read the response, so you run.
Quote:

Niki is often on the personal attack. I try to be fair to her because, like PN, she has things to say, but at risk of offending both, I think they're very alike: They're primarily in the propaganda business, and post far too much content for anyone to even care to read. The goal here is (links included: remember when niki demanded everyone read a self-published book?) To bombard people with so much information that they cave under the weight and concede the argument.
That’s great; for one thing, I NEVER “demanded” anyone read anything; someone here suggested the book, I found it interesting, so put up a post inviting a discussion of same, which we then had. Please point out anywhere I “demanded” anything, anything at all. Putting up a post on a subject which might be an interesting discussion being interpreted as “demanding”…well, it shows your view of things.

As to posting far too much content for anyone to even care to re...wow. From the person who posts the longest posts next to PN’s (which are only longer because of the videos, etc., he inserts), that’s pretty self-damning. Yeah, you admitted you do the same, but you also put up a thread encouraging everyone to post shorter, then continued as if you’d never said it and have since posted incredibly long writings, devolving into history, religion, political theories and many other things having little to do with the topic at hand.

Quote:

But let's be fair, both John and Niki are in the carpetbombing business.
That disregards every post I’ve put up on every topic, when in reality I’ve put up posts on many topics, including as many interesting ones I can find on Australia and Canada, since we have representatives from both of those countries. I've also started threads negative to the side you so easily relegate me to. My major interest is Afghanistan, I freely admit, but show me where I have “info bombed”, if you would, because I reject that charge completely. My OPINIONS may lean to the left, but other than that, the THREADS I put up have been of varied forms.

Quote:

Sure, Niki doesn't deserve any moral high ground, probably half her threads, this one included are personal attacks. That just discredits Niki, not anyone else. Ignore it. She's called me some choice things in the past and might in response to this reply
Half my threads? That’s insane! Can you even please try to stay within the bounds of reason, or even close to them? I’ve POSTED my frustrations about PN repeatedly, but I’ve only begun two THREADS on the subject, and NO OTHER threads that I recall have been posted by me which could be considered “attacks”!

Quote:

If you don't want to be classified along side PN, then stop competing for the spot. Stick to rational arguments.
Given you consider pretty much anything I say as NOT “rational arguments’, that’s your opinion and might not be shared by others. I provide links, I discuss subjects with what I believe to be reasonable arguments, and sometimes I give as good as I get. If that were to put me in the same place as PN in your opinion, then your view is totally skewed and prejudiced. If you were to take the time to go back and check threads, you’d see that 90% of the time (or more) PN posts vicious rants, jumps to impossible conclusions, statements of things outside the realm of reality, and he slathers the threads with them. I tried ONE DAY to find things of real interest to put up for people to discuss other than his ran...otherwise, there is NO competition, PN out-posts everyone here by a huge majority.

What you call “infobombing” is suggesting topics I think might be of interest. Show us where I’ve done otherwise.

Quote:

you're the text only version of PN's evil twin, or good twin, or anti-twin, or whatever, but it most definitely leaves you wide open for attack. You're almost begging for attack, which, incidentally, is what really defines a troll. Just don't engage in the PN carpet bombing, and skip the personal attacks
Quote:

Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out that this is a personal attack thread in which you're complaining about personal attacks while, personally, I can't see a lot of difference between the two of you.


For an attack post, this does quite well. Previously I have ignored PN and some of the others, or given as good as I get, while I have tried to respond reasonably to you. I realize now this is impossible; either your view is so skewed that you have no desire to see what is real, or your prejudice is so strong that you’re not capable of it or choose to ignore reality where I’m concerned. I’m more reasonable and less personally combative than many here, and that’s a fact; I try to be respectful as much as I can, so to compare me with those who do not is infamous.

I challenge you to prove your points; cite specific examples of my “infobombing”, show where my “attacks” have been as bad as PN’s or OTB's, or that I have attempted to “compete” with PN. I hereby state that you won’t, nor that you will even read or attempt to respond in any reasonable manner to this post. You are engaging in “cut and run” tactics, and I’m seeing now that is a pattern I’d best recognize. I have CHALLENGED you on issues, you have READ my challenges in a way in which they were neither written nor intended, and chosen to judge me based on fallacies of your own perception. Prove otherwise, if you have the decency to do so.




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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Heh, damn, beaten to the punch, oh well.

I *was* planning to call him out on the "oh I'm tired and sick and don't have time to respond" whine immediately followed by pages long diatribes myself, but I see I do not need to.

It's bullshit, what it is, and I have to say, since folk have decided to be vicious about it, imma just call the whole matter down.

Yes, I CAN be nasty, damn right I can, and I guess it never occured to folk maybe why...

There's a couple folk round here, and since we're being nasty, Out2B, DT, PN among them, but not alas, alone in it - who seem to have this thing that whenever a reasonable, rational discussion occurs where coherent thought and reason prevails, they see some all fired *need* to bum rush it and try to drive the thread to hell and wreck anything resembling productive discussion.

You've NO IDEA how much that pisses me off, and I can and will get fair nasty in response to it.

That said, since mister 'strunk & white' seems bent on waxing verbose but puling and whining about actually having the common fucking respect to read anyone elses thoughts, opinions and responses, imma just gonna hafta deal with that the same way I deal with some loon shouting his supposed religious revelations at length from a street corner - just keep going and pay em no mind at all.

You wanna discuss, discuss - you wanna rant, rave and wreck other folks discussion, expect short shrift from me.

-Frem

PS. And for the record, the insult was "Petty", as I consider children to be people and the words are interchangeable, I was seeing if anyone was blind enough, stupid enough, to let their own preconceptions and misconceptions induce them to say something stupid...

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA



BTW, what book are we talkin about here, cause now y'all have got me curious...

-F

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It was a book called "The Authoritarians", the link was posted by someone else, and I thanked them because I found the material fascinating. I put up some of the text (it's long) and invited discussion, and we had a lively one. There was a second thread, since the first one was about authoritarian leaders, I put up a seocnd to cover authoritarian followers, and we had a lively discussion on that to. At NO time did I "demand" anyone read it, tho' I did in a couple of instances say that to avoid misinterpretation, as there was some going on, it might be best to read the pertinent parts of it.

I tried to find the thread(s), but clicking on "read archived threads" didn't work for me, sorry. But ah-hah! I found the book itself (the whole thing is on the internet) and you did ask: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6433397/The-Authoritarians

And thank you Frem, it got to me that such a long post full of accusations should be directed specifically at me and about me, yet knowing from the most recent expeience that the reply would be ignored; also the irony of saying one doesn't have interest in attacking threads after just writing one. It's good to hera I wasn't alone.




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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


My advice is: Ignore them. Trolls are looking for feedback, so don't give them any!

PN is another story. PN is genuinely, organically ("something wrong with the brain") crazy. I tried ignoring PN but that doesn't help, so I tried smacking him upside the head with facts a couple of times on the theory that schizophrenics might respond well to reality checks, just like dementia/ Alzheimer sufferers respond. I don't think that worked either, but I wasn't doing that for the board's sake, I was doing that for PNs sake. Unlike trolls and delusionals, PN doesn't make it in the normal world (at least, not to hear his stories of making a zillion court filings and representing himself pro se. Whenever he show up at court, people roll their eyes, I'm sure.)

IMHO O2B and (to a much lesser extent) DT share some of the same issues as PN. O2B has one concern, and on concern only: THE FEDERAL RESERVE. All evil springs from the Fed, and if the Fed were only gone we would all be living in utopia. And if you don't agree with O2B on that point you will be personally attacked in any thread.

OTOH, I treasure DT's persona. DT may be a little bit "out there", and the mental associations may be a little bit loose... but not so loose that DT doesn't often uncover some real understandings... things you might not think about if you looked at life in a conventional way.

Anyway, there really ARE only a few consequences that people face in virtual life: being banned, being shunted off to a side thread, being relentlessly hounded (That's fun for some!), being appreciatively included and responded to, and being ignored.

We've all pretty much agreed that we wouldn't ask for people to be banned (right?), I think we've agreed not to ask Haken to shunt PN off to the side, so I vote - as usual- for IGNORING people and responses that we don't like.

AFA why the forum is slow... I really think it's the holidays. I've been very very busy wrapping up some projects for the end of the year and getting ready for the holidays, and I imagine others are too.

So anyways, Merry Xmas to those who celebrate it, Happy Hanukka, a joyous Kwanzaa and (my personal favorite) glad tidings of Sun Return! I raise my glass to all.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:02 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
...a joyous Kwanzaa and (my personal favorite) a glad tidings of Sun Return! I raise my glass to all.



The Sun went somewhere ?

Hadn't missed it...

Hey , SignyM , what about this guy ?




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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Here ya go, Niki & Frem:

http://168.215.229.9/mthread.asp?b=18&t=39811



Told ya I have a long memory. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:22 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Signy: Well said, and I concur.

I like DT, and he does have some insightful posts. But some of his stuff is out there (and I know he thinks the same of some of my "issues", so we're in good shape there...)

Out2Lunch and PN both seem to be suffering from the same hard-right John Birch Society maladies, if you'll look on the CPAC/John Birch thread where I posted the JBS stuff. They seriously seem to match that stuff like it's a checklist.

As such, there's really no basis for having a serious discussion with either of them. PN, for instance, rants about "British Knight Sir George W Bush Knight of the British Empire" as being responsible for selling the US to the Commies/Nazis/Jews/Whoever - and then cites British Lord Monckton of the British Empire as his sole source on why climate change is a hoax. So right there he's confirmed that it's not the "British" part of Bush that he hates, or the title that goes with it; he just has to throw that in as an "insult" to Bush, but as some kind of plea to authority when it comes to Monckton.

Shoots himself in the foot, every single time.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Bernanke???

PTOOOEY!! I spit on his image. (But then, so do most peeps around here! )

"Person of the Year"???

Sheer flippin' propaganda. (That's for you, Geezer. You were not seeing it, so here's one little bitty bit of it.)

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


"What about this guy?"

Well, I can honestly say, of all the people on the face of the Earth, he's one of them.

Anything else I might say about him wouldn't be very nice. :)

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, thank you Mike, I appreciate the link. He can read it or not, as he chooses, but I was sorry I couldn't provide the thread (as I thought the discussion was every bit as interesting as the book itself!)




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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:03 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I wonder what's in it for the goons like Bernacke. It's not like he's one of the ULTRA wealthy .

OK - he's doing better than nearly all of us, but it's not as if he's one of the owners:


The chairman's financial disclosure form, released Tuesday, showed that Bernanke is a millionaire, with holdings last year in no-frills investments, including U.S. Treasury securities, mutual funds and annuities.

Bernanke, 53, took over the central bank in February 2006, succeeding longtime chairman Alan Greenspan, who also played it safe when it came to his own investments while at the Fed.

An economist who spent most of his career in academia, including teaching at Princeton, Bernanke also is receiving royalties on two textbooks he wrote. Royalty income was listed at between $50,001 and $100,000 for each textbook, the document showed.

I mean, really - what does he get for licking all those boots ?



***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Well, I can honestly say, of all the people on the face of the Earth, he's one of them.
OMG Mike, you crack me up! And, this is the FOURTH sticky keyboard you're responsible for!


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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I mean, really - what does he get for licking all those boots ?



Well, for starters, he gets to be on the cover of Time magazine! :)


And Sig, thanks for that highest compliment. Laughter might be the only thing we can still afford, but it's enough!

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Well, for starters, he gets to be on the cover of Time magazine!"


Hmmm, yes. Target practice.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 1:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KNOCK IT OFF, GUYS!

I'm tired of cleaning my gorram screen!

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 1:24 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm sorry. Here, I have some wipes in my purse. Are two enough ?

It's just that it occurred to me - there might be a downside to being the well-known face of something people DEEPLY resent.

You know ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 2:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm sorry. Here, I have some wipes in my purse. Are two enough ?

It's just that it occurred to me - there might be a downside to being the well-known face of something people DEEPLY resent.

You know ?




Nahhhhhhh... What could possibly be the downside of something like that?




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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:27 PM

DREAMTROVE


Hmm

At some point while I wasn't looking I became a topic of discussion ;)

A couple points:

1. I respect o2tb, I think he has a unique perspective which he brings to the forum with an honest straight forward approach, like someone looking to discuss real problems for real solutions.

2. I respect PN because I think he's highly intelligent and a truly dedicated researcher. Sometimes he gets things wrong, but I have no problem just ignoring his issues because there is stuff there worth researching. Generally, if he posts something new, I research it independently.

3. On issues, everyone already knows I support Israel, but not blindly or dumbly, and I can't stand the govt. of Israel, just like the govt. of the US or China. I probably fall in somewhere around Geezer on this, but not 'rap who would have been "Zion or die!"

But in PN's anti-jewish christian full on-tilt dive, he's researched the subject far more than anyone else, which is why I discuss it with him, not because I agree with his conclusions.

4. Yeah, there are issues I disagree with people here on, but they're mostly standard issue issues, and ones I've changed my position on many times, even here on this forum through the influence of others. Currently, I'm anti-2a, I think the weapons we're allowed are ineffective, and they only serve to help us kill ourselves. I'm pro-RTL, pro-environment, anti-globalist, anti-war, etc. But these sorts of positions are composites arrived at by the balance of much information, as they are for anyone else, and no one could argue them alone. If anyone changes their position on one, it's because of a change in underlying positions.

5. My feeling on the Federal Reserve comes from a different place then most. I worked for a stock broker for 10 years, and have worked on and off in finance for 25. I'm a proponent of the free market, and feel that our economic regulatory system is the greatest impediment to that. In short, doing business in the US is like playing monopoly with a person who constantly deals themselves 500s out of the bank.

6. I never of course claimed to be sane. I was institutionalized for three years, and experimented on like a guinea pig by big pharm the entire time, and not without side effects. Much of my distrust of both govt. and the medical establishment came from that experience. Had I followed the advice of either, I would not be here.

I will grant one thing to govt: the ability to sue for my own release was one right that was afforded me, and with the aid of my brother, a lawyer, I was able to get free, research the field myself, find a cure, and treat myself.

Which brings me to my overall feeling on govt:

The responsibility of govt. is to protect the rights of the people. That's all. That's what the framers intended, and that's where it ends.

As for the medical industry, they would have gladly kept me forever, I was a cash cow. But, since I've never been above the poverty line, I was not a cash cow on my own dime. Without a state-supported medical system, it could never have happened.

It would work if we had free choice, and all medical treatments were reasonably priced, but we could never be forced into treatment, or charged for things we did not ask for or that were not well done (if you took your car to a mechanic to fix the brakes, and he didn't fix the breaks, but did break the CV joints, would you pay him?)

I think any addition to that, I could see subsidizing treatments that were expensive to do, or picking up the tab for those two poor to pay.

But I digress.

I don't know why I'm writing this, just thought it odd to see people actually talking about me ;)

I guess if I had one point to clear up, it's this: I leave a misconception sometimes that I support a position because I discuss a topic, whether I'm being devil's advocate, or just curious. I don't support the regime in Iran, but I respect it, and I respect Ahmadinejad for keeping his country on a road towards progress, and equally importantly, out of the war. I think the regime is too harsh on freedom of the press, and supports policies I disagree with like capital punishment, but that's really their business, and any time they don't like it, they can vote it down.

Also, sometimes I say things just to be snarky.

Curious side note: initially, I got along with Citizen, and then we had some ferocious arguments about politics, and now we don't talk about politics anymore and I get along with him fine. I assume we're politically diametrically opposed and should probably avoid the issue. I mention this because I see it in other people. Some of y'all who argue, are probably people who would get along if you just agreed that you were not politically aligned.

Overall, I'm probably in about 90% agreement with Frem, and close to that with a couple of others, majorly differing on wedge issues which I think are pretty minor. I still like discussing things with people I disagree with. So far Nik hasn't said anything that really offended me, I disagree with a lot of her positions, but not all, and she has stuff to say. More often she just posts more than I have time to read. If the post starts out real interesting, I read it.

If anyone is still reading this post ... ;)

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


As I am fond of saying, sometimes RWED is as funny as a cola truck hitting a rail car of mashmallow peeps, heh heh heh.

And yes, I remember those discussions, and the book, it was the "Self-Published" comment that threw me, cause I was thinkin they meant YOU wrote a book, which made me especially curious.

Folks mocked Larry Correia when he self-published MHI, but I thought it was a right rockin good read, and the folks at Baen Books took one look and jaws impacted the floor, that damn thing is still selling like hotcakes and now the self-published editions are friggin collectors items.

The SP version
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Hunter-International-Larry-Correia/dp/07
41444569


The Baen version
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Hunter-International-Larry-Correia/dp/14
39132852


So, uh, yeah - given that I DO know folks who write, and quite well, it wasn't out of my frame of reference if you had written one, see ?

Oh, and since we're talkin about books, Larrys book comes HIGHLY recommended from me, Mikey, Geezer and Wulfie I think would find it extraordinarily entertaining - just think Buffy by Blackwater, with a side order of Burt Gummer, and you start to get the idea.

-F

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