REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Russian help sought in Afghanistan

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Sunday, December 20, 2009 23:00
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Friday, December 18, 2009 2:47 PM

DREAMTROVE



was followed by this headline
NATO Fails to Get Russian Commitment for Afghan War
and also this
Been Three, Done That, Got the T-Shirt



In other news, someone rolled out the Fe-Line Units:



All yer bayz iz Blong to us


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Friday, December 18, 2009 3:17 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I for one like the Russian response,

Help you. yes we are on your side in common cause...

Send Troops... no I don't think so

Send Helicopters, well maybe down the road we can talk price on some used ones

Send Logistics across Russia, well no, we really couldn't guarantee the security of your goods, lots of folk who don't like you guys live in areas you would need to cross sorry

All that bullshit with Georgia is coming to roost now




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, December 18, 2009 3:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Gee, I can't imagine WHY the Russians wouldn't want to send troops to Afghanistan, can you?


I suppose we should probably consider ourselves lucky that they aren't arming and training the mujahideen... ;)

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Friday, December 18, 2009 3:24 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:



I suppose we should probably consider ourselves lucky that they aren't arming and training the mujahideen... ;)



But the US is doing such a good job of it

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/12/missing.afghan.weapons
/index.html






Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, December 18, 2009 3:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I suppose we should probably consider ourselves lucky that they aren't arming and training the mujahideen... ;)


Yeaaahh, like they're NOT doing that, while giggling up their sleeves at the fact that we're bungling it even worse than they ever did.

-F

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Friday, December 18, 2009 4:00 PM

DREAMTROVE


I gotta side with Mike on this one: *we* are arming the mujahideen. Not intentionally, well, intentionally, but it's not a plan:

1. We get some cell to work with us.
2. We bomb some civilians they know and tick them off
3. They take the weapons we gave them and turn on us.

The Russians appear to be arming the Taliban instead.

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Friday, December 18, 2009 4:48 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I suppose we should probably consider ourselves lucky that they aren't arming and training the mujahideen... ;)


Yeaaahh, like they're NOT doing that, while giggling up their sleeves at the fact that we're bungling it even worse than they ever did.

-F



Russia, hell China, India, Iran, Pakistan... does anyone think the Afghans have any neighbors who really wants the US to succeed ?

Nothing says love, like sending guns to the people somebody else is trying to subjugate






Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, December 18, 2009 7:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Sheesh... Nobody gets subtlety these days.

OF COURSE they're arming and training the "mujahideen" - that being anyone who is interested in (a) fighting, and (b) helping the US to waste its time and resources.

Anyone in the world who has the slightest interest in seeing the US lose any amount of power and/or influence is helping anyone on EITHER side to prolong this fight, keep us bogged down, and squander whatever alleged national wealth we might still have.

And if they're really, really smart, they're also helping the poppy farmers and the drug lords to get their product into the US to further weaken us; more American addicts means more wasted American dollars on the "War on (some) Drugs", crime prevention, incarceration, and rehabilitation efforts, as well as probation and parole enforcement.

So yes, I fully expect that the Russians are arming and aiding not only those fighting against us in the area, but also those fighting WITH us in the area, because you really don't want either side to gain a real advantage, because that might end things sooner rather than later.

But you're nuts if you think the Rooskies are going to send any "above the board" help our way. It's insulting and stupid to even ask, as it can only have a profoundly NEGATIVE effect on us in Afghanistan. After all, do you really want to be seen as allying with the people who committed such atrocities upon the Afghan people in such recent, living memory? How on Earth is that supposed to give us any kind of perceived legitimacy in the area?

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Friday, December 18, 2009 8:16 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sheesh... Nobody gets subtlety these days.

OF COURSE they're arming and training the "mujahideen" - that being anyone who is interested in (a) fighting, and (b) helping the US to waste its time and resources.

Anyone in the world who has the slightest interest in seeing the US lose any amount of power and/or influence is helping anyone on EITHER side to prolong this fight, keep us bogged down, and squander whatever alleged national wealth we might still have.

And if they're really, really smart, they're also helping the poppy farmers and the drug lords to get their product into the US to further weaken us; more American addicts means more wasted American dollars on the "War on (some) Drugs", crime prevention, incarceration, and rehabilitation efforts, as well as probation and parole enforcement.

So yes, I fully expect that the Russians are arming and aiding not only those fighting against us in the area, but also those fighting WITH us in the area, because you really don't want either side to gain a real advantage, because that might end things sooner rather than later.

But you're nuts if you think the Rooskies are going to send any "above the board" help our way. It's insulting and stupid to even ask, as it can only have a profoundly NEGATIVE effect on us in Afghanistan. After all, do you really want to be seen as allying with the people who committed such atrocities upon the Afghan people in such recent, living memory? How on Earth is that supposed to give us any kind of perceived legitimacy in the area?



http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/12/2009121613586231111.h
tml


They want Russia to supply a unsaid number of helicopters...

I think Russia will... count up their supply of used POS helicopters that they can give a quick paint job to and give the US a smoking used car lot deal, scoring as high a price as possible.

Don't look at me... Reagan taught them capitalism






Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, December 18, 2009 8:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, Russia will rip us off on the helicopters (which, if they're the Mi-24 "Hind" gunships, will REALLY piss off some Afghans), and then they'll turn around and sell the other side either OUR Stinger missiles, which were used by the mujahideen to such devastating effect against the Hind in Afghanistan, or they'll sell them knockoffs of their own design.

Either way, this should really work out amazingly well, as long as you're not us. :)

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:29 AM

DREAMTROVE


Mike, interesting theory: Help us... destroy ourselves. And here I was afraid this was going to turn into another cute kitten thread.

"It's insulting and stupid to even ask..."

Ohhh, in so many ways...

Russia, remember Afghanistan, that was fun right, how your empire collapsed? Oh, and remember all the things we've done for you over the years, like threaten you with nukes, and send "healthcare workers" to intentionally spread HIV throughout your country, and most recently fund a war against you...


Gino, NATO actually asked them for troops, not just equipment


But, I mean imagine if they actually *do* decide to "help" us. The number of underhanded ways they could undermine us.



Actually, wait, that might be helpful ;)

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:10 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
...OF COURSE they're arming and training the "mujahideen" - that being anyone who is interested in (a) fighting, and (b) helping the US to waste its time and resources.

Anyone in the world who has the slightest interest in seeing the US lose any amount of power and/or influence is helping anyone on EITHER side to prolong this fight, keep us bogged down, and squander whatever alleged national wealth we might still have.

And if they're really, really smart, they're also helping the poppy farmers and the drug lords to get their product into the US to further weaken us; more American addicts means more wasted American dollars on the "War on (some) Drugs", crime prevention, incarceration, and rehabilitation efforts, as well as probation and parole enforcement.




Those ex-ComBloc helos have been operational in theater for a while already , most of them were Mi-8's out of Poland engaged in ops of a blackish color , this just makes the Russkie 'contribution' more of an 'open secret'.


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Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:49 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike, interesting theory: Help us... destroy ourselves. And here I was afraid this was going to turn into another cute kitten thread.

"It's insulting and stupid to even ask..."

Ohhh, in so many ways...

Russia, remember Afghanistan, that was fun right, how your empire collapsed? Oh, and remember all the things we've done for you over the years, like threaten you with nukes, and send "healthcare workers" to intentionally spread HIV throughout your country, and most recently fund a war against you...


Gino, NATO actually asked them for troops, not just equipment


But, I mean imagine if they actually *do* decide to "help" us. The number of underhanded ways they could undermine us.



Actually, wait, that might be helpful ;)



I know, and they were turned down flat


the helicopter were the part of the conversation where they said they'd consider it


and why not use this to hurt the US, the US caused the Russians to invade Afghanistan in the 80's, and their emipire came apart as a result.

Poetic turnout





Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:59 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


This interview is interesting

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,668055,00.html

SPIEGEL: With all due respect, we are not talking about individual decisions, but the principle. Can and should ISAF soldiers intentionally kill Taliban, even when they do not pose a direct threat, that is, are not involved in belligerent actions?

Rasmussen: We have a mandate from the United Nations. We support the Afghan government, so that Afghanistan does not become a place, once again, that poses a threat to us. The operational decisions on how this goal is to be met are made by commanders in the field.

SPIEGEL: Just to be clear: Your response to this direct question is neither yes nor no. Are we conducting a war in Afghanistan, or what is it?

Rasmussen: It is quite clear that our troops are fighting under warlike conditions in certain areas of Afghanistan. But I think the rest of it is semantics.

SPIEGEL: You could end this debate by saying: "Yes, of course, we are at war there." Why do you not have the courage to say this?

Rasmussen: What I'm saying is that there are warlike conditions in some areas.




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 12:53 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
and why not use this to hurt the US, the US caused the Russians to invade Afghanistan in the 80's, and their emipire came apart as a result.

Poetic turnout


The problems in the USSR stem from the 60's, maybe earlier. Glasnost helped put a few more nails in that coffin, Afghanistan was barely a contributing factor.

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I respectfully disagree, Cit. I don't think the Afghanistan Adventure *directly* caused the fall of the Soviet Union, but I definitely think it had a contributory influence. Here was the USSR being shown that, might as it imagined itself to be, it was NOT infallible. The same kind of humiliation in Vietnam led the United States to start seriously rethinking a lot of its policies and ambitions, at least for a time.

Afghanistan's cruel lessons didn't crash the USSR, but they came at a time when the nation was already suffering setbacks, and they exacerbated the problems and really HIGHLIGHTED them in an even harsher light, and this helped bolster people inside the Soviet government who were already thinking (yet never saying, at least not aloud in public), "We need to find a different way."

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:46 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
and why not use this to hurt the US, the US caused the Russians to invade Afghanistan in the 80's, and their emipire came apart as a result.

Poetic turnout


The problems in the USSR stem from the 60's, maybe earlier. Glasnost helped put a few more nails in that coffin, Afghanistan was barely a contributing factor.



The economic problems yes, but they were masters at concealing things like like from the general public ( like others we could discuss )

My feeling, and others ( I could hunt for cites but this book, http://www.amazon.ca/Hidden-War-Russian-Journalists-Afghanistan/dp/080
213775X

had the same conclusion ) that Afghanistan provided a cultural break from the grandfathers who fought the great war, and lived in those hard days... the old time communists bought much of their power by using that history, some of it was true.. but nothing starts the questions faster than fighting ( and losing ) a prolonged war against a third rate power for reasons that seem very questionable even to the common people.

Afghanistan was the break in trust the communists had with the people, where the loss of faith took root.



Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:48 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I respectfully disagree, Cit.


I think you'll find the problems of Afghanistan are more to do with Glasnost than Afghanistan. The old soviet days set backs meant little, but with glasnost the media were freer to expose the issues. Many of the set backs you mention were much older than generally imagined. The problems of the Soviet State, were being felt in some areas long before they became apparent to the West. I think Afghanistan it self was fairly meaningless, it was the set backs plus the failures of the 60's reforms, plus the media being able to report the failure of Afghanistan that was the problem. Materially I think Afghanistan had very little quantifiable impact.

It was Glasnost that highlighted the failures of the USSR, Afghanistan was just another issue amongst many that Glasnost brought to light. But without Afghanistan I don't think things would have really played out any differently.
Quote:


The economic problems yes, but they were masters at concealing things like like from the general public ( like others we could discuss )


Yes, but Glasnost changed that. That's my point.

EDIT:
Point is there were many economic and social issues in the USSR that had massive material effects on the country. But they were suppressed, and the general public weren't much aware of them. Afghanistan was humiliating, but it had little real effect, until you factor in Glasnost which made the public aware, and all of a sudden there's a military coup. Ironically it was the Glasnost reforms that opened up the control of the communist party over information that did most to sound the death knoll.

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Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I think Citizen's got the right idea; we're just looking at it from different angles.

Glasnost was the lever. Afghanistan was the fulcrum against which it was applied to pry the Soviet Union apart. Both played their part, but the lever of glasnost would have found another fulcrum somewhere, eventually. Probably.

Sometimes it just takes a perfect confluence of events to set the dominoes falling.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:50 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I think Citizen's got the right idea; we're just looking at it from different angles.

Glasnost was the lever. Afghanistan was the fulcrum against which it was applied to pry the Soviet Union apart. Both played their part, but the lever of glasnost would have found another fulcrum somewhere, eventually. Probably.

Sometimes it just takes a perfect confluence of events to set the dominoes falling.


I can live with that :).

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sometimes it just takes a perfect confluence of events to set the dominoes falling.


Agreed, but you know, smart people, as in people who can see or at least LOOK past the next fiscal year or election cycle, can often set many of those pieces in advance - which frankly, isn't most of the powers that be, and happens to be why I consider Kissinger and Rumsfeld to be such dangerous sumbitches.

-F

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:59 PM

GINOBIFFARONI






Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I think that's supposed to go in the multi-cultural marriages thread, Gino! :)


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Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:00 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I think that's supposed to go in the multi-cultural marriages thread, Gino! :)





I thought we we're discussing what assistance the US might get from Russia...


I figure cheap hooch with a brilliant promotion may be the best the US might get

:)





Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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