Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. May I respectfully request that the one about the culture ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

War in Afghanistan

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, April 15, 2021 16:10
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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Al Qaeda would be best qualified as a charity. It's an international communication network for the distribution of goods and services by charitable donors to recipients. Like Hezbollah, upon which it was modeled, by Osama bin Laden, it supports military resistance fighters as well as hospitals, schools and other projects throughout the muslim world.



Thanks for pointing that out. Far too many people tend to miss that small detail.

Al Qaeda is, in a sense, what the U.S. government is. They provide schooling, support, welfare, health care, help, defense, law enforcement, and general order to some, and they wage war on others. *WE* (the West, I mean) call them terrorists, but that's not what they call themselves. In their own eyes, they are freedom fighters, guerillas engaged in a fight for the survival of their way of life, their culture, and they see *US* as the terrorists.

The sad part is, both sides have valid points.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:20 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem

Good points, all.

The rapid switching of sides is often a matter of:
(depending on who you are)
1. Who is making the best pitch that they are standing up for us
2. Who's paying this week
3. Who might actually win
4. Who can I play for an angle

But they ain't the only ones planting IEDs while fighting for us: We've planted a large number of those IEDs ourself by clusterbombing with landmines. What our thinking on that one was is up to plenty of speculation.

It's important to remember that when we're talking about organized groups like the Mujahideen, Al Qaeda, the Taliban or the Northern Alliance, we're talking about really small organizations. No one there represents even 1% of the total fighting force opposing the US in any region, which means that when we fight, for example, "Taliban" we're either fighting with a) people who have elected to side with the taliban or b) people who we have elected to call taliban, but probably precious few actual taliban.

Those people who joined the taliban to fight against us, once we buy out the taliban and get them on our side, those "allied militias" will then go and join some other group, and probably continue to oppose us.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:12 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Hillary Clinton: We'll Still Be In Afghanistan in 50 or 60 Years
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/12/hillary-clinton-well-sti
ll-be-in.html


Billary Clinton Blythe Rockefeller genocided 500,000 children in the nonstop 20-year Iraq War:



Quote:

Department of Veterans Affairs Reports 76,000 U.S. Gulf War Deaths

Historical Gulf War Veterans Information System (GWVIS) Reports (2007 is last report)
http://www.vba.va.gov/REPORTS/gwvis/historical/index.asp
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf

Total number of VA disability claims filed: 1,620,906

Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%

www.opednews.com/articles/genera_clive_bo_070921_department_of_vetera.
htm


My wife is one of the disabled vets in that report.

Obama orders troops get face transplants in time for Christmas
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41241


Obama's Christmas tree graced by Chairman Mao, transvestite, Obama on Mount Rushmore
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=119800

Obama worships Satan as a racist Freemason, which does not bode well for soldiers...



Quote:

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"
-Kosher General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, page 321 (indicted for treason as a British agent and cannibalism in the US Civil War)

"When a mason learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy."
-Manly P. Hall,33°, The Lost Key of Freemasonry, p.48

"The Blue Degrees are but the court of portico (porch) of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally mislead by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adept, the Princes of Masonry."
-General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite

"If your wife child, or friend should ask you anything about your invitation - as for instance, if your clothes were taken off, if you were blind folded, if you had a rope tied around you neck, etc, you must conceal. Hence of course you must deliberately lie about it. It is part of your obligation."
-General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, p. 74

"In willful violation whereof may I incur the fearful penalty of having my eyeballs pierced to thru center with a three edged blade, my feet flayed and forced to walk the hot sands upon the sterile shores of the red sea until the flaming Sun shall strike with a livid plague, and my Allah the god of Arab, Moslem and Mohammedan, the god of our fathers, support me to the entire fulfillment of the same."
-oath of obligation, Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine ("Shriners")

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirit will from that moment be without a compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
-Albert Pike, on a plan for world conquest, written in a letter to Mazzini dated August 15, 1871

"Thirty-third degree Freemason Albert Pike (1809-1891), the man destined to develop the Luciferian Doctrine for the Masonic hierarchy, could not accept the Lucifer and Satan were the same personality. While teaching his beliefs to a select few in the Supreme Council, Pike became the most powerful Mason in the world. Although an obscure general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, he was hardly inconspicuous in Freemasonry. From 1859 until his death in 1891, Pike occupied simultaneously the positions of Grand Master of the Central Directory at Washington, D.C., Grand Commander of the Supreme Council at Charleston, S.C., and Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry. He was an honorary member of almost every Supreme Council in the world, personally receiving 130 Masonic degrees. Pike also was one of the most physically and morally repulsive individuals in American history. Weighing well over three hundred pounds, his sexual proclivity was to sit naked astride a phallic throne in the woods, accompanied by a gang of prostitutes. To these orgies he would bring one or more wagon loads of food and liquor, most of which he would consume over a period of two days until he passed into a stupor. In his adopted state of Arkansas, Pike was well known as a practitioner of Satanism, Portraits of his later years show him wearing a symbol of the Baphomet around his neck."
-Scarlet and the Beast, John Daniel, vol 1

"Masonry gives rogues and evil-minded characters an opportunity of visiting upon their devoted victim, all the ills attending combined power, when exerted to accomplish destruction. It works unseen, at all silent hours, and secret times and places; and, like death when summoning his diseases, pounces upon its devoted subject, and lays him prostrate in the dust. Like the great enemy of man, it has shown its cloven foot, and put the public upon its guard against its secret machinations."
-CAPT. WM. MORGAN'S ILLUSTRATIONS OF MASONRY, 1827 (Capt Morgan was kidnapped and ritually murdered by Freemasons)

"Membership of secret societies such as freemasonry can raise suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is therefore important the public know the facts. I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a secret society but a society with secrets. I think it is widely accepted that one secret they should not be keeping is who their members are in the criminal justice system."
-Home Secretary Jack Straw, 1997 Home Affairs Committee England

"The Oath of Fealty I bind my blood in Satan's hands, All this that lieth betwixt my hands To thee, the Beast, and thy control, I pledge me; body, mind, and soul. Pledge I swear to work my Work abhorred, Careless of all but one reward, The pleasure of the Devil our Lord."
—Aleister "The Beast 666" Crowley 33° Grand Inspector General Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and Frater Superior Baphomet XI°, SATANIC EXTRACTS
http://the7thfire.com/new_world_order/Freemasonry/aliester_crowley_33_
degree_Mason_knew_about_human_sacrifice.htm


"But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is the best. For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim."
—Aleister Crowley, MAGICK in Theory and Practice

GEORGE W BUSH IS GRANDSON OF SATANIST ALEISTER CROWLEY
http://www.rense.com/general77/acrow.htm

"The true name of Satan is, the Kallaists say, is that of Yahweh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism and Idoltry. For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good; but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument for Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythological and horned form of the God Pan; hence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpant, and the Light-Bearer, or Phosphor of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend."
-General Albert Pike (Masonic pope), "Morals and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry", page 102
http://www.srmason-sj.org

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the 19th Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"
-General Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry", Masonic bible "Morals and Dogma", page 321
http://www.srmason-sj.org

"There is in nature a one most potent force, by means whereof a single man, who could posses himself of it, and should know how to direct it, could revolutionize and change the face of the world. It is a universal agent, whose supreme law is equilibrium; and whereby, if science can but learn how to control it, it can be possible to change the order of the seasons, to produce in night the phenomenon of day, to send a thought in an instant around the world, to heal or slay at a distance, to give our words universal success, and made them reverberate everywhere. The Gnostics held that it was adorned in the secret rites of the Sabbat or the Temple, under the hieroglyphic figure of the Baphomet or the hermaphroditic goat of Mendes."
-General Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry", page 734

"All religions issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the dreams of the illuminati is borrow from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and Symbols. The Kabalah alone consecrates the allegiance of the Universal Reason and Devine Word. The Bible, with all the allegories it contains, expresses, in an incomplete and veiled manner only, the religious science of the Hebrews. Thus was a second Bible born, unknown to, or rather uncomprehended by, the Christians; a collection, they say, of monstrous absurdities; a monument, the adept says, wherein everything that the genius of philosophy and that of religion have ever formed or imagined of the sublime; a treasure surrounded by thorns; a diamond concelaed in a rough dark stone. One is filled with admiration, on penetrating into the Sancuary of the Kabalah, at seeing doctrine so logical, so simple, and at the same time so absolute. The Absolute Deity, with the Kabalists, has no name. The terms applied to Him are the Most Simple Light. For then there was no space or vacant place, but all was infinite Light."
-General Albert Pike, Jewish pope of Masonic Mafia, "Morals and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry", page 744-5
http://www.srmason-sj.org

General Albert Pike was the Jewish pope of the Masonic Mafia, court martialed for treason for the British Empire during US Civil War, indicted for warcrimes and cannibalism, founder of KKK, president of Tennessee Bar Assn.

Initiation rituals of Freemasonry:
"I will obey all signs and summons handed to me by a chapter of Masons. I will assist a Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty whether he be right or wrong. I promise and swear to forever conceal and never reveal any of the secrets of Masons or Masonry under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across from ear to ear, my tongue plucked out by the roots; my heart taken from under my left breast; my body cut across, my bowels taken out; my body dissected into four equal parts to hang and remain a terror to all those who shall presume to violate the sacred obligation of a Mason."
-President John Quincy Adams, founder of Anti-Masonic Party, "Letters on Freemasonry"
http://texemarrs.com

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."
-Ronayne Handbook of Masonry, page 183

"Freemasons have long been accused of Satanic practices as seen in the illustration of the Baphomet from Leo Taxil's The Mysteries of Freemasonry, 1897. Source: Archives of the Supreme Council, S.J., 33°"
-Scottish Rite Journal, "I Was Called a Satanist Today," Feb 2002
http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/journal-files/Issues/Feb02/moss.htm



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Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Al Qaeda is, in a sense, what the U.S. government is. They provide schooling, support, welfare, health care, help, defense, law enforcement, and general order to some, and they wage war on others. *WE* (the West, I mean) call them terrorists, but that's not what they call themselves. In their own eyes, they are freedom fighters, guerillas engaged in a fight for the survival of their way of life, their culture, and they see *US* as the terrorists.
What you left out, Mike, is that Al Qaeda is also bent on expanding its doctrines world-wide, and attacking those who do not believe as they do. It IS all those things, tho’ “welfare” and “health care” I would question, but there’s far more to it than that. To call them a “charity” is a huge stretch, from what I’ve researched and know.

DT: With your second-to-the-last most recent post, I disagree. Please back up your opinions
Quote:

We've planted a large number of those IEDs ourself by clusterbombing with landmines
I reject your theory, unless you can provide backup to prove your opinion. Aside from that one line, I agree with your most recent post.




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Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

I reject your theory, unless you can provide backup to prove your opinion.


Nik, read your own words here. This sort of loaded language is what ticks me and probably others off, It's propagandistic.

As for the cluster mines, this has been in the news numerous times, it's not mine, it's not a theory, Israel even tried to take action against the US over this issue, the Pentagon released an official report that stated that as many as 95% of landmines the US vehicles struck were in fact our own cluster munitions. The details of when we replaced "Katys" with small land mines for cluster bombing is also well recorded, and can be found anywhere.

The topic has been discussed at length on this forum in several threads. No one ever called it a theory, attributed it to me, or doubted anything about the idea, which is, btw, the official pentagon position and has been for several years now.

As for the history of Al Qaeda, anyone can find and read that. Osama Bin Laden wrote quite a bit about it. Again, there was no speculation there. Anyone in the muslim world can tell you this. No one in the CIA even uses the term "Al Qaeda" with any seriousness to refer to a specific terrorist organization.

Finally, I have no vested interest in arguing or convincing anyone. Feel free to disagree, but please don't direct your disagreements asking for a response from me if you're not talking to me, as you seem only to be trying to shoot down my credibility as I answer the questions of others to the best of my abilities, which is also manipulative and propagandistic. It's not appreciated. Someone asked the question. Feel free to disagree, but don't ask to debate the topic. I do not have time, and simply don't care about the result.

If you doubt my data, google it. As I said, nothing here is news, except to the people who haven't heard it. Nothing here is theory.

Actually, google everything else too. And not just to prove yourself right by adding words to find sources.

If you actually give a damn about the gorram truth you'd ask yourself any time someone posted something which conflicted with what you believe, if you looked at it and thought "I wonder if that's true" not "how can I shoot this down."

However, my job is not to do your ressearch for you. Right now, and for the next several years, I will be researching medicine, and care little for politics.

I would however, like to answer questions without receiving a personal attack for having done so.

Specifically, re: the use of landmine scattering through cluster munitions is currently a warcrimes claim against the US by the ICC for use during the Kosovo war. But it was acknowledged by the Pentagon to have been used in Lebanon and wide spread useage in Iraq, It's a current US military tactic, which is technically in violation of the landmine treaty, but then, the US govt. doesn't really care much for international treaties.

If anyone cares

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Monday, December 28, 2009 1:59 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


From Niki2

" What you left out, Mike, is that Al Qaeda is also bent on expanding its doctrines world-wide, and attacking those who do not believe as they do. It IS all those things, tho’ “welfare” and “health care” I would question, but there’s far more to it than that. To call them a “charity” is a huge stretch, from what I’ve researched and know. "

And the US isn't " bent on expanding its doctrines world-wide " ?

Most of the Muslim groups labeled as terrorists have brought alot of support to the populations within their sphere of influence... Hezbollah, for example helped more with the rebuilding effort, medical care and mine clearance efforts in Southern Lebanon than the Lebanese government did after Israel was pushed out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah


As for " We've planted a large number of those IEDs ourself by clusterbombing with landmines

I reject your theory, unless you can provide backup to prove your opinion. Aside from that one line, I agree with your most recent post. "


Yes and No, the use of cluster munitions do have the effects DT is talking about, well documented examples is Israel using them in Southern Lebanon, or the US using them in Bosnia, or Russia using then in Chechnya...

But if you believe the US, they haven't used cluster bombs in Afghanistan since spring 2002, I think one of the reasons why was incidents where food packets given away by Americans and cluster sub munitions were in same in color and size... leading to unfortunate incidents
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/1670891.stm

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-11.htm





Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, December 28, 2009 4:54 PM

DREAMTROVE


Gino,

1. Niki clearly misunderstood me when she used the word "planted." I apologize for skimming her posts. But, yes, you are correct, it's a side effect of a tactic, not an intentional "planting."

2. I was referring to land-mine related friendly fire casualties in Iraq, which are also pretty well documented, but now that you bring it up, the scattering and planting of land mines in Afghanistan by many parties at least dating back to the first Soviet Invasion is going to be a perennial problem for the area for a long time to come.

Now if someone strikes a landmine in Afghanistan, you really can't have any idea who planted it or when short of forensic evidence, which admittedly, you sometimes have, but also which the western press often distorts or doesn't report. (anyone remember Bush trying to hawk a bomb shell made in Wilkesbarre PA as proof of Iranian involvement?) It's never going to be in our interests to blame ourselves, and probably not China, Russia, or Afghans fighting China or Russia as a suspect in any land mine usage.

You're right about Russia and Chechnya, also I'd like to add Georgia to that.

The real problem here is that this usage violates the international land mine treaty which states that the exact coordinates of any land mine used must be recorded during any use in any conflict for post-war removal.. That's impossible when you use random scattering.


Oh, as for the designation of Al Qaeda as a charity, it's not my own, it's a technical classification, that's why I put it in such a skeptical framework, but it's a designation that our govt. has used at least as many times as it has "terrorist organization" and honestly, it's more accurate.

Charities simply ferry aid from contributors to recipients without seeking to benefit in the process, What they are charitably supporting is very often something that you wouldn't want to associate yourself with. I think that there was a misapprehension here that "charity=good," no, it's just a means of doing things.

It would be nice if we could abandon all weighted prejudices, like that democrats bring peace, or republicans bring fiscal discipline or that socialism is about helping people or that socialism is about totalitarian control. Democrats are a political party that seeks being elected with left support, Republicans, with right, socialism is short for social engineering, at this point, I'm not too sure of much else.

Whether I'd classify either Al Qaeda or the Mujahideen as terrorist organizations is up in the air for me at the moment. Technically, this would mean that they intentionally fostered an atmosphere of fear for political gain. I'm not sure. It's possible. It's also possible that actions attributed to them are actually committed by hostile govts. such as the US or Russia. I'm just not sure.

I'd be more tempted to say that the US might be a terrorist organization, specific incidents like the bombing of Fallujah seem to serve no other purpose than to foster an environment of fear.

As for charities, The IMF is a charitable institution, as is the WHO. The IRA is a terrorist group, but they will never be as objectively despicable as the IMF or WHO.

I feel there's a constant battle of semantics in the undercurrent of any debate. It's like that nonsense of Obama being a secret muslim last year. If I understand correctly, to the Sunnis of Indonesia, there is no "ex-muslim" and so he's a rather more public muslim, but so what? It's a free country. He can be a muslim christian zionist if he wants. I think his muslim ties are an asset, but one alas he is quickly spending with this war.

At present I'm fairly ticked over the war, I thought the stop loss thing was over, and the drones were going away, Obama pledged both of those, even though he never pledged an end to the war, both of those things have stayed.

sorry [/rant] to the empty room ;)

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Monday, December 28, 2009 5:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Gino beat me to it, but yes I was gonna bring that up.

The cluster bomb controversy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2912617.stm

We not only dropped a shitload of clusterbombs and mines, but we used a munition near identical to food drops and often as not dropped em over the same areas - to date no one has proven whether that was stupidity or malice, but frankly knowing the racial and religious bents of the commanders in charge at the time I tend to lean toward deliberate malice, something which I would not say lightly, mind you.

In fact, one of my friends, a British EOD expert, died removing some unexploded allied munitions from a local Iraqis field so he could plant food for his family - I do not begrudge this, cause everyone in that job knows the clock will run out sooner or later, and it was his hope to come back in a matchbox because he "did not want to linger" if his time did come - he not only got his wish on that front, the concussive effect cleared the other munitions and the surviving trainee, who was only thrown into a wall by the blast, managed to certify it safe before being medivaced, so he got the job done even posthumously.

Another of my buds, during the Kosovo deployment, had to be airdropped to work on the antenna farm cause the area was so riddled with mines from both sides as well as some NATO forces, including ours, that it wasn't safe to walk or drive anywhere near the place.

Call me what you will for it, but being how bloody dangerous the damned things are, before the lady was killed by american bombs as a result of collateral damage, one of my contacts with RAWA helped translate instructions on how to disarm various munitions, cause we shouldn't ought to be using the damned things, and they can stay dangerous for an extremely long time.

-F

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Monday, December 28, 2009 7:57 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DT: I don't get your use of "propagandistic", especially where it relates to asking for sources, cites or something to back up what you write. You state things as fact, I and others have been asked to back up statements we have made as fact, so I saw no problem in asking the same of you. How that is "propagandistic" or even "manipulative" eludes me. Doesn't matter; I understand what you're saying; if I'm getting it right, it's that whatever you write should be checked out by someone else if they don't believe it, because what you write is what you believe to be fact. Accepted.
Quote:

please don't direct your disagreements asking for a response from me if you're not talking to me
I don't understand that sentence at all, and I'm not trying to shoot you down, I'm trying to discern the difference between what you have theorized and what has been proven.
Quote:

not just to prove yourself right by adding words to find sources
I don't understand that one either. It's no matter, I just found the sentences confusing, so I can't respond to it.
Quote:

If you actually give a damn about the gorram truth you'd ask yourself any time someone posted something which conflicted with what you believe, if you looked at it and thought "I wonder if that's true" not "how can I shoot this down."
That's not what I do; and many people provide cites for what they state, so I can read the cites and decide for myself. I'd rather decide for myself about things and do google numerous things I read, you just rarely provide them yet make many statements as flat fact. That makes it hard to discuss, not knowing what are assumptions and what are credible facts, that's all.

As for personal attacks, I asked for backup of what you stated, and said I rejected your theory...if you prefer, read the latter as "I disagree", that's what I was saying. There were o personal attacks, just a request and a disagreement. I think it best we agree to disagree and just let things go on from there.

Gino:
Quote:

And the US isn't " bent on expanding its doctrines world-wide " ?
Oh, good gawd, of COURSE we are..especially the past few years! I never said otherwise, did I? But I believe from what they rant and rave about, that the loose non-organization of people who consider themselves part of that group are bent on "wiping out" and acting through terrorism to kill all non-Muslims and/or Westerners...I guess I should have said "religious doctrine and terrorism".

Nonetheless, I think America contributes a lot to Afghanistan by way of medical, food and other assistance; certainly one nation calls "freedom fighters" what another calls "terrorists" throughout history, we're a prime example, but I don't see calling Al Qaeda a "charity". I would more call the Tliban a charity, as they have given direct aid to the country in many ways.

I agree with what you said about land mines, and Frem as well. I knew about Kosovo, Iraq was pretty easy to surmise, but I don't believe "We've planted a large number of those IEDs ourself by clusterbombing with landmines" in AFGHANISTAN, which is what was being discussed. I could certainly be wrong, but that's not what I've gathered, At least not since, as you cited, incidents which ceased such operations. It is with that which I was disagreeing.

As to landmines in general, I would say some very unpleasant things about them being used at all by anyone; basically, it sickens me. 'Nuff said.

(who's been changing the title...again? This time it was spelled "Afgan War"...sigh...)




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Monday, December 28, 2009 8:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Niki2:

What you left out, Mike, is that Al Qaeda is also bent on expanding its doctrines world-wide, and attacking those who do not believe as they do. It IS all those things, tho’ “welfare” and “health care” I would question, but there’s far more to it than that. To call them a “charity” is a huge stretch, from what I’ve researched and know.



Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't AGREE with Al Qaeda's methods and measures. Of course, I don't necessarily agree with those of the United States, either...

What I'm saying is that they DO do charitable works, they DO provide healthcare, education, food, and shelter to some.

Of course they're bent on spreading their doctrine throughout the world. Shall we declare war on the Salvation Army or the Saddleback Church for doing the same?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, December 28, 2009 9:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Niki2 said

" As to landmines in general, I would say some very unpleasant things about them being used at all by anyone; basically, it sickens me. 'Nuff said. "

Mind you, if I was Prime Minister I would sign all the treaties limiting the use of landmines, cluster bombs, etc

But with the caveat that if we are fighting someone who hasn't signed that treaty, or is disregarding same treaty... then that treaty does not apply




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:30 AM

DREAMTROVE


Mike,

I think no one supports Al Qaeda. I was being technical, and yes, there's a lot of what we might consider "actual charity" in Al Qaeda, but it's probably more fair to say that people use the Al Qaeda network to do actual charity.

When you consider what the US considers "foreign aid" it's not really that different of a concept.

I have the same issues with the Israeli govt. as everyone else. When I say I support Israel or the Israeli people, I'm countering a position I hear too often here, and elsewhere, which is "Fuck 'em." Israelis are just people with less control over their govt. than we have, and to me they look like sacrificial victims for holocaust v. 2.0, *especially* the west bank jewish settlers. Their govt. *wants* them to be attacked so that it will have a justification for war. Our govt. did the same thing in the 19th c.

That said, you could easily make the case that our "aid" is really to arm and support terrorism, largely Israeli terrorism, govt. sponsored or not, like Rahm's dad's little operation.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mmmm, Mike, neither of those institutions do terrorist acts, nor do they propagate the "kill all nonbelievers" ideology. That's what I was talking about.

Gino, I wish every head of state would do the same; and I'd leave out the caveat. Doing as our enemies do only brings us down to their level, and a child of either side can be killed/maimed by a landmine, no matter what it's original intent was, yes?




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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:13 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Once again , despite the Vile Comments from me, the top-of-the-Go*Se, an effort is made to go back on topic...
I would never say to anyones face the sort of things I indulges in here...Not more than once , that is...Coward...I've never seen one of those 'c-word' things to which one supposes I meant to refer... Unless you count the cows I molested once. I can't spell or use English, that is...Illiterate...


Fixed that for you.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 9:18 AM

DREAMTROVE


Gino,

Agreed. But these nations are already signatories to the land mine treaty, which they are now blatantly violating, not to mention the NPT.

I don't like the idea of some large international hand to enforce treaties, but we need something, maybe a gentle-nation's agreement that all allies will back out of supporting anyone who violates international treaties.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:01 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Mmmm, Mike, neither of those institutions do terrorist acts, nor do they propagate the "kill all nonbelievers" ideology. That's what I was talking about.

Gino, I wish every head of state would do the same; and I'd leave out the caveat. Doing as our enemies do only brings us down to their level, and a child of either side can be killed/maimed by a landmine, no matter what it's original intent was, yes?






Actually I was leaving the door open for countries attacked by the US, who is in opposition to most of these treatys...

If your on the recieving end of USAF clusterbombs, and you can dole out the same them it would be wrong not to...




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:04 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Gino,

Agreed. But these nations are already signatories to the land mine treaty, which they are now blatantly violating, not to mention the NPT.

I don't like the idea of some large international hand to enforce treaties, but we need something, maybe a gentle-nation's agreement that all allies will back out of supporting anyone who violates international treaties.




I think we keep coming back to the idea of an effective UN,

without Veto problems, or handpicked security councils providing undue influences



Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:06 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Gino,

Agreed. But these nations are already signatories to the land mine treaty, which they are now blatantly violating, not to mention the NPT.

I don't like the idea of some large international hand to enforce treaties, but we need something, maybe a gentle-nation's agreement that all allies will back out of supporting anyone who violates international treaties.



Also, take a look at who hasn't signed these treatys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty#Signatories

Signatories
Main article: List of parties to the Ottawa Treaty

There were originally 855,000 signatories of the petition launched by the International Campaign to Ban Landmines in 1997; when the Convention was opened for signature, it was signed by 133 countries; as of 10 May 2009, there were 156 States Parties to the Treaty.[4] Thirty-seven countries have not signed the treaty. There is a clause in the treaty, Article 3, which permits countries to retain landmines for use in training or development of countermeasures. 64 countries have taken this option. In total 289,000 mines have been declared as retained by various countries under Article 3. A further 23 countries have not declared a figure.[citation needed]

The list of about three dozen states that have not signed the treaty includes a majority of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (People's Republic of China, the United States and Russia), India, and both Koreas, where use of landmines remain common in the Demilitarized Zone.[5]



Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, April 15, 2021 12:22 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


The Longest War in United States History

Will Biden End U.S.A's “Forever War” in Afghanistan? Trump wanted out. Now, Biden says he'll withdraw

Biden called George W. Bush before he announced his Afghanistan troop withdrawal plan - but neither said whether Bush supported it
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-called-george-w-bush-122849374.html

Father of fallen Canadian soldier of two minds on Biden’s pullout from Afghanistan
https://www.thestar.com/politics/2021/04/15/father-of-fallen-canadian-
soldier-of-two-minds-on-bidens-pullout-from-afghanistan.html


U.S.'s Blinken flies to Afghanistan in show of support after Biden's pull-out announcement
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/u-blinken-flies-afghanistan-show-121304065.h
tml


Biden’s Afghanistan pullout gets mixed reaction in Congress
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2021/04/15/bidens-afghanistan-pul
lout-gets-mixed-reaction-in-congress
/

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Thursday, April 15, 2021 4:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Well, the Libtards insisted upon and Elected a resurgent War around the world, including Afghanistan.

So now they get it.


Who would have thought that a mere 4 years without "War" being cried every couple of days would allow folks to forget about the word.

Oh, wait....Yep, the Conservatives knew this all along - the Libtards would make folk forget that War was their bread and butter.

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