The path by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The path

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Friday, December 11, 2009 06:10
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VIEWED: 1497
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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 5:41 PM

What motivates you. We walk through this crumbling world from day to day, and at times, there's a lot of fussing about this wrong or that, and nothing gets done. I'm just curious...

What is success? Is there a goal? Is there some victory to be won, and if so, is it possible? Or a pipe dream?

Sometiems we are working at cross purposes, and yet with a common goal, fighting amongst ourselves, wasting the energy that might be directed towards a common end. I don't know if we're a team, a loose ban of rogue allies, or characters in a death match tournament.

Still, I thought, sparing the sparring, the personal attacks, and just getting down to what is there than can be done, should be done, is actually doable and what are we actually doing? What motivates us, individually towards those ends, and what do we consider victory? are these ideas compatible at all?

It seems that partisan bickering and nitpicking over the details of a medicare reform bill is hardly a focus for our efforts.

I have some thoughts on this myself, but I'll save them and let other people post first

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 5:52 PM

CHRISISALL

The Path is for each of us to choose.
To do what good you can, while looking out for your loved ones is Path enough for most.
Victory is living a life that gives others (and ourselves) some fulfillment, some sense of meaning.
Watch Star Trek TMP for further details.
Or Blade Runner.
Or Serenity.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 6:22 PM

DREAMTROVE

Chris, interesting, and very taoist, I was thinking bigger, less personal. we are here to discuss realworld events of the powers that be, while they go out and be powers, and affect changes we don't like, and we sit here and bitch about it. I guess I'm losing my comfort level with that particular division of labor. ;)

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:59 AM

SOCKPUPPET

There is no path, we all wander aimlessly until we get hit by a bus or something

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 5:50 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
What motivates you. We walk through this crumbling world from day to day, and at times, there's a lot of fussing about this wrong or that, and nothing gets done. I'm just curious...

What is success? Is there a goal? Is there some victory to be won, and if so, is it possible? Or a pipe dream?

...

we are here to discuss realworld events of the powers that be, while they go out and be powers, and affect changes we don't like, and we sit here and bitch about it. I guess I'm losing my comfort level with that particular division of labor. ;)

Ooh. We're going to have a lot of disagreement on what the end goal should be.

For me, the end goal is restoring sanity to modern society. We've grown away from nature, both human nature and the wilderness we are adapted to. The modern world and modern cities are an unnatural lifestyle, which, while providing certain comforts and conveniences, also creates stresses that detract from quality of life.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the answer is freezing to death in the winter, or dismissing all lifesaving medical advancements, or anything of the sort. I'm not a luddite, I think some progress is good, and I have an almost religious respect for science and human ingenuity. But I think we're going the wrong way, and we're using our advancements to cement ourselves onto this path.

The answer, I think, is to go back to a more simple, natural way of living (or at least what I consider is a natural way of living), both in a sense of society and government, and in a the sense of self-sufficient sustainable living that respects the land and ecosystem.

The green revolution is good start for the later. Whatever global warming may be, the green revolution isn't a bad idea. It's creating technology that makes moving towards a more natural, sustainable lifestyle more attractive and convenient for the average citizen. New ways to manage waste without polluting, new ways to take ourselves off the grid and become self-sufficient in our homes, even homes that are using available nearby resources, and being careful about using renewable and non-damaging construction material. Now if we could just perfect some of this and then figure out a way to build without first clearing the plot we'd have a good basis. And farming within the ecosystem, in stead of in spite of it.

Work and jobs in the current system are just busy work. As I imagine it, people who are genuinely interested in a project will devote time to it on their own, i.e. gardening as a hobby lends itself well to farming. As I said, in addition to sustainable, people need to also become self-sufficient. With less time devoted to busywork, people will pay more attention to their communities, and participate in civic improvement projects and help each other more, which will strengthen important social connections.

Lastly, this ideal society wouldn't need any law beyond an understood social contract between citizens of the community. Social contracts would probably vary, but likely social contracts would consist of no murder, no theft, non-violence between members of the community, non-interference in individual livelyhood or interpersonal relationships, and respect for personal choices that don't impinge on any of the above.

The internet is an important tool here for technological advance, research, and collaboration between distant communities.

The main obstacle, as I see it, is our current socio-economic system and the powers that be, because we're already working on sustainable technologies and self-sufficiency would be easy enough to regain.

I think Frem out of all of us here does the best at resisting the powers that be and throwing wrenches in their plans, though sometimes I'm concerned some of his methods may have a bit too much collateral damage than I'm comfortable with.

The basic idea is stop supporting the bad public officials, don't participate in the system, though if you can find allies in what few public officials there are that still have a shred of integrity and decency, that appears to work well. It's unfortunate we have to work with a system that generally is destructive, but if it's the only way available to enact change, then this is necessary. For now.

The other thing to do is avoid participating in the economy, if you're self-sufficient it can be done. Keep an eye out in your community and look for groups of people who need help, it builds those very important social connections.

And watch the police and other corrupt institutions, because they're propping up the system and all it's flaws. Refusing to acknowledge non-sensical or discriminatory laws is also important, and it would probably be useful to know how to defend yourself if this gets you caught up in the legal system.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually, workin on a couple projects related to that right now, and I have my own concerns about collateral damage, which is why I have left primary action in Justins hands, cause a wrecking ball is no longer the proper tool for the job at hand, although having the threat handy is useful.

That's actually part of his negotiating scheme.
"Deal with ME, or you *will* wind up dealing with HIM."

Anyhows, re-humanizing public schooling is one thing we're shoving hard at right now, and we're not the only ones, this project was brought to my attention last week and I am behind it pretty solidly.
http://www.thewaronkids.com/
Watch the on-site trailer, it nails it dead-bang.

Of course, one of the issues with that is how Teachers wind up codified by the system into drones, and how the tremendous amount of crushing debt required and the laundry list of "credential" required for such a low paying job limits the talent pool and cuts out many real educators, right ?

Well, maybe not for too much longer.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121034265
Besides, I do a lot of "education" via the socrates club, which I don't even get paid for, just because I enjoy teaching, it's kinda funny how this has evolved, each class now sends 1-2 people to learn and pass on to avoid the crowd problem, and two of the teachers have taken occasion to listen in, one of whom has used these observations to counter weaknesses in his own teaching style, and offered some right useful constructive criticism in my direction as well, so it's a mutual benefit.

That and the adaptation of the Sudbury model, which puts the focus and power in the hands of those being educated, is a reform already showing much promise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

I'm still not wholly convinced on the idea of uniforms, but I do think that if the students design them and mutually agree on them it becomes a banner of school pride and self respect instead of a refit of class based sumptuary law forced down from above - involving students in their own education, treating them as people, that goes pretty damn far towards humanising education again.

In order to keep this manageable, I won't even get into police - but reducing the number of them helps cut down the culture of corruption, and this recent piece by Mr Grigg is a well deserved slap at Portlands force.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2009/12/thin-blue-whine-pt-i-petu
lant-police.html

The end goal, is of course, a sane society - and for that you first need saner people - but it's also a step by step process, and the fact that many of these steps were or are considered "impossible", well - that ain't never got in my way before, it ain't gettin there now.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Leaving the world a better place than what I found, whether it means changing a mind, helping a friend, or kicking some politican's/ company's *ss.

As I get more time, I hope to become involved in politics because I see that nothing gets done without it.

Your mileage may vary.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:38 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Actually, workin on a couple projects related to that right now, and I have my own concerns about collateral damage, which is why I have left primary action in Justins hands, cause a wrecking ball is no longer the proper tool for the job at hand, although having the threat handy is useful.

That's actually part of his negotiating scheme.
"Deal with ME, or you *will* wind up dealing with HIM."

Ha, classic. :) And I didn't mean to imply that your methods aren't effective, clearly they are, even ones with collateral damage, but I'm glad to hear you're thinking about minimizing that. Allies are always better than unwitting sacrifices.

Good thoughts on the education, another point, the younger generation needs to be reached out to. They're being indoctrinated and they don't even realize. Free them, free the future.

I don't know if schools are ready for uniforms, though. Close knit pack mentality can be good if it's open minded, but at this point uniforms will simply be decided by one group to make another group uncomfortable. Schools are too stratified by cliques at this point in time for uniforms to give students any degree of solidarity.

Also, re: the article on Detriot teachers. I feel kind of sorry for the ones who had to get specially certified, no wonder they're resisting so much, they probably went into debt for no good reason, so they resent these newcomers coming in who didn't have to go through what they did. The sad thing is, these teachers don't seem to realize that they shouldn't have had to go into debt in the first place, and are busy resisting when they really should be trying to get their money back. Though they're probably wrong, and being certified probably will still be marketable. Still, resisting this idea is self-defeating, for themselves and for future teachers.

The Sudbury model is interesting, and would probably work very well for discovery and exploratory interests such as English and Science. How does it work for more strongly quantitative fields, like math? For me, math was like ramming my head into a wall until I got it. I was interested in it, so I kept at it, but higher math like algebra, trig, and calculus, required to understand physics, really do need in-depth explanation. Some people are naturally good at math, I'm not one of them, but I kept at it. A lot of people wouldn't, and miss out on the satisfaction of being able to solve some problems and understand some phenomena.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Leaving the world a better place than what I found, whether it means changing a mind, helping a friend, or kicking some politican's/ company's *ss.

As I get more time, I hope to become involved in politics because I see that nothing gets done without it.

Seems so. Don't get too involved, though, I think a lot of politicians are backstabbing money grubbers, and they'll roll over on you the first chance they get. Keep yourself safe, and good luck. You're well meaning, and I'm for a lot of social programs if they reduce suffering.

I honestly don't want to see the system collapse, I just think it may be inevitable. Help people while you can.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:23 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Do whats right.

Live for others, help everyone you can.

Protect, defend, fight for a better day.

Never give up.

Overcome.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Posted by Byte:

Ooh. We're going to have a lot of disagreement on what the end goal should be.

Which is what makes it so hard to work toward common goals; WE DON'T HAVE COMMON GOALS.

WE want to "end terrorism". But that assumes that everyone the world over shares that belief, and clearly they don't. "WE" want universal healthcare - except for the 43% of us Americans who don't. "WE" want clean air, except for the corporatists who place profit above planet.

Hard to strive towards a common goal when so many of us share so little in common, isn't it?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:50 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
The green revolution is good start for the later. Whatever global warming may be, the green revolution isn't a bad idea. It's creating technology that makes moving towards a more natural, sustainable lifestyle more attractive and convenient for the average citizen. New ways to manage waste without polluting, new ways to take ourselves off the grid and become self-sufficient in our homes, even homes that are using available nearby resources, and being careful about using renewable and non-damaging construction material. Now if we could just perfect some of this and then figure out a way to build without first clearing the plot we'd have a good basis. And farming within the ecosystem, in stead of in spite of it.

Thank you for this, Byte - I've been trying to say it that succinctly for years now. Whether you believe in global warming or not, how does trying to find better, cleaner, more efficient means of doing things HURT the planet, the country, the species, your town, or your family?

And it's not saying "tear down the economy!" to bring it up - it's saying, let's REBUILD our economy, in a better image. Let's make GREEN an INDUSTRY. Let's try, just for once in the miserable history of the human race, to have an impact on our surroundings that isn't profoundly NEGATIVE.

How does trying to do that harm your grandchildren?

We've been fighting against forces who are convinced it's all a hoax, and that all we're after is destroying "big oil". I don't give a shit if big oil makes a profit off green technology; I despise the hypocrisy of making a profit on it while denouncing it as useless, though. Make a profit - make renewable energy a viable industry. How does that hurt us?

I've been talked to death about the wars, and when it finally comes down to brass tacks, it usually gets pointed out that, like it or not, legal or illegal, justified or not, the wars will "drive the economy", so that's good enough reason for some.

So now we get to play the same game - whether you agree with global warming or not, whether you think the planet's in trouble or not, even if you just love the idea of dumping your used motor oil down the storm drain - if it drives the economy, what's not to love about a Green Revolution?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My path ON THIS BOARD is simple - it's to challenge as many errors as possible. Since they have a habit, as they are repeated without challenge, of becoming accepted truths.

And because ....

***************************************************************

... Silence is consent.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:43 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
My path ON THIS BOARD is simple - it's to challenge as many errors as possible. Since they have a habit, as they are repeated without challenge, of becoming accepted truths.

And because ....

***************************************************************

... Silence is consent.

Ayup. And when you debunk them and occasionally run off the lying liars who spread those lies, they have a nasty habit of popping back up under new usernames, with the same tired old "facts" that never panned out before.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 5:46 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike, I didn't mean we the people, I meant we the people on this forum.

Save what's left of the planet, the green areas, biodiversity. These guys don't seem to care too much what the co2 level is, so neither do I.

Save cultural diversity. I'm not hyper on human rights, save one: Everyone has the right to leave. If all societies adopted this rule, we would have better societies, ones that had to strive to keep people.

I've been gnawing over Pirate News' Molech threory. This may sound insane, but I think he has a point. I'm waiting for his post on stopping Molech.

Myself, I don't want to stop them, TPTB, I want to stop their arms from reaching our noses. My method to this madness is not going to be to pull in their arms, but to retreat our noses, or to create the illusion that they are hitting our noses, when in fact they are not. I think this will satisfy them.

To learn all that I can, and use that knowledge effectively, share it with others so that they can do the same.

To increase govt. waste, corruption and inefficiency. I think that if decadence and stupidity could just be moved up a couple notches the entire system would grind to a halt. I think that would be an improvement.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head

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Friday, December 11, 2009 6:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike said it for me, if you're talking about the path to improving the outside world:

Quote:
Do whats right.

Live for others, help everyone you can.

Protect, defend, fight for a better day.

Never give up.

It's a different story for my "internal" world, which can be summed up by "follow the buddhist path".

The environmental stuff goes for me as well as Mike, too...my path I guess is buying recycled stuff, recycling, saving gas by riding my motorcycle, combining trips, etc., contributing to causes (people causes as well as environmental ones), writing when I think it'll help, using cloth grocery bags, and everything else I can do in my everyday life to lessen my "footprint".

Politically, I'm a cynic, aside from voting I don't think anything does any good, so I'll just go on bitching! Tho' I do march, when the subject moves me, which can't hurt 'cuz it shows there are SOME of us out there who have the courage of our convictions.

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