We manage to trash every place we've been- even space! by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

We manage to trash every place we've been- even space!

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, November 6, 2009 04:27
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Wednesday, November 4, 2009 7:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What IS it with us, anyway???

We see the atmosphere as a boundless entity which will sweep away our smoke, and the ocean as an endless sump for flushing our trash. Haven't we learned that everything is limited? That we have to deal with our garbage, not just throw it away? Apparently not. Here, in the 21st century, we're still thinking midden heaps... in space.

Space Junk Threatens Future Missions
www.universetoday.com/2009/11/03/space-junk-threatens-future-missions/

BTW- Byte- this is one of the reasons why I think population control is necessary, and also one of the reasons why I think it'll never happen voluntarily. As a species, we just don't think ahead very well.

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Wednesday, November 4, 2009 1:39 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You answered your own question:

Quote:
As a species, we just don't think ahead very well.

Bear in mind, since caveman days, mankind has always made a mess...when it got too big, they either moved on or burried it and built another city on top!

It's our "way". It's just that until now, we weren't numerous enough to overcome nature so effectively. We're slobs.

There's also the "I got mine, screw you" attitude. I loved the argument that "you can't stop logging, my great grandpa, grandpa and pa were loggers, what will I do to earn a living??". Given that continued logging would END logging anyway, it's a pathetically short-sighted view; and it's the view of all businesses: "If you reduce pollution, we'll lose our jobs!"

Man has never been in a position until now where Nature could clean up his messes, fish couldn't procreate fast enough to overcome overfishing, oceans weren't big enough to absorb his pollution, and on and on. Man is not going to recognize this situation for some time to come...maybe not until it's too late.

I agree with everything you said, mournfully. I also noticed your post brought little interest; politics is much more exciting to talk about, and most of us are still in denial. I haven't been for decades; Ehrlich's daughter was a fellow folkdancer, so I got educated early. Been sad ever since.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, November 4, 2009 1:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

I agree with everything you said, mournfully. I also noticed your post brought little interest; politics is much more exciting to talk about, and most of us are still in denial. I haven't been for decades; Ehrlich's daughter was a fellow folkdancer, so I got educated early. Been sad ever since.

Yup, it depresses me to think what we're doing to ourselves as a species.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, November 4, 2009 2:24 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

That's why people like stories about evil lizardmen. While I'm not denying the whole evil lizardman idea, the notion of a group of nefarious shapeshifting humanoids leading us astray isn't that different from the stories of the devil or evil spirits doing the same.

What we need is to not be led astray. I think a great reform for society, above all else, would be some common sense. The wagging dogmonkey heres the words "and no money down for six months" and say "it's free!" and they here "Neurotoxin will kill little minibugs that bite and annoy you, and will stay active in the air of your home for up to 72 hours" and we think "Mmm. Minibugs. Stop biting me. They're so annoying... Must buy..."

Or as my sister puts it, the basic human thought is "BBRRAAAIINNSS!"

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Wednesday, November 4, 2009 8:14 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Yup, it depresses me to think what we're doing to ourselves as a species.

Pretty sad isn't it?

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 12:36 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Wow, another great excuse to not go "back" to the Moon.

Funny how no robot spaceman can photograph Apollo trash on the Moon, not even from lunar orbit.

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 7:42 AM

DRAGO

We see the atmosphere and ocean that way because we want to. As you said, as a species, we don't plan ahead very well. We look up and we see this endless blue sky. Most of us accept that there is space above it, but on the whole, we don't really understand that. We simply see this endless blue thing with white stuff floating in it. There's no way in Hell human action could negatively affect all of that, right? I mean that's just a ridiculous thought, isn't it? All this infinite blue sky, so what if some smoke or dust or chemicals get up there? It's infinite. And we don't live in it - what does it matter? It's the sky, it has nothing to do with us, right?
Same with the ocean. We look at the ocean, we see endless, limitless water. So much water human minds can't even comprehend it. Miles deep water covering over half the planet. There's no way in Hell that anything us simple humans could do would negatively affect the whole thing, right? I mean, so some nuclear material gets dumped in. A few fish die. It doesn't matter, we don't live there. The state of the ocean has nothing to do with us in our daily lives, right?

That's how we see them. "We don't live there, perfect places for stuff we don't want to live with!"

Humans have not learned that everything is limited, and we won't until everything is gone. When we can't eat seafood anymore, when even in the countryside the air quality is so bad it affects plant growth and causes respiratory problems in animals and humans, this is when we will realize "Holy crap! What happened?"
That realization is not a realization. And it isn't on purpose - because even then, the majority of the human race will only just be noticing. And so we'll blame something else. Oh, the learned, the scientists and those working closely with the problems, they'll know the truth. But the human race on the whole will shunt blame for the results of our actions to something else, and/or just not think about it, just like we always have.

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 8:11 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
And so we'll blame something else. Oh, the learned, the scientists and those working closely with the problems, they'll know the truth. But the human race on the whole will shunt blame for the results of our actions to something else, and/or just not think about it, just like we always have.

Most likely it will be blamed on gays in the military, gay marriage, and flag burning. Or terrorism.

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 8:12 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Wow, another great excuse to not go "back" to the Moon.

Funny how no robot spaceman can photograph Apollo trash on the Moon, not even from lunar orbit.

Actually, PN, you should APPLAUD not wasting money on something that could never, ever be done anyway. Right?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 11:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellent, Drago, you nailed it. Aside from convenience and being as we always have been, the lack of inability to CONCEPTUALIZE beyond what we can see, feel, taste and smell is a definite disadvantage in getting mankind to realize what we're doing.

This is the first time in our long history when things around us ARE finite...previously that's never been the case. Humans don't change their attitudes and beliefs quickly, much less their desire/ability to change, as can be seen all around us in every way.

I would add that deniability is as large a part as inability to extrapolate. The air? Who in an urban setting can't see the smog...in LaLaLand, you could cut it with a knife. Where I live is in the North Bay...the winds are such that when we moved here, we had no smog at all, it all got sent down to the South Bay. Now we have as much smog as they had THEN, but has it made any difference? Nope. In fact, the number of cars per capita has INCREASED and is supposed to do even more. We're forced to see the smog every clear day, but it's changed little. So even if humans experience the problem, even if they're forced to live with it and don't have to conceptualize at all, deniability and the comfort of the status quo cut in.

Quote:
I think a great reform for society, above all else, would be some common sense.

Ahh, but how much of that exists in mankind?? How much do you see around you? Man is not known for common sense; that fact impacts us in every walk of life, every apect of our lives. Ain't-a-gonna change, as I see it.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 11:52 AM

PERFESSERGEE

One of my favorite quotes (stolen from a t-short in Argentina). In the original and then translated:

Solamente cuando se ha envenenado el ultimo rio, cortado el ultimo arbol, y matado el ultimo pez, el hombre se dara cuenta que no puede comerselo el dinero

Only when the last river has been poisoned, the last tree cut, and the last fish killed, will humans realize that they can't eat money.

A bit bitter and cynical but all the evidence points to its truth.

perfessergee

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 12:20 PM

PERFESSERGEE

Niki,

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The air? Who in an urban setting can't see the smog...in LaLaLand, you could cut it with a knife.
________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

You're right that you can see the air down here in LA (I live in the San Gabriel Valley), but the air quality is actually a lot better than it was in the 70's. A friend from my grad school days (in Seattle), when he found I was taking a job at a small college down here, told me that when he was here, his parents drove him down and they got here at night. It was late November before he realized that there were mountains here, because that was the first time he could see them - and they are about a mile from campus and 10,000 feet tall. You can see 'em on the worst days now.

The reason? Government intervention (state govt, not the feds, who got into it much later), which was fiercely resisted by the auto industry. California passed the first vehicle emission standards (and required engine modifications) in the late 60's, and it worked. Now we rarely have to keep school kids inside - except during the fires that plague us every year - whereas they were kept inside frequently before. The industry argument was that it would cost too much and would cause job loss. It did neither, and we got much better air out of it to boot (though to be sure, it still doesn't meet our own air quality standards and probably never will).

There are indeed some things only governments can do. As for long-term solutions to the whole mess we are in, it's tough to be optimistic. Population control is going to have to be in the mix, though. Everyone in the world would like to have the US standard of living, as they think we're all rich (that image is probably our most popular export), but that's a physical impossibility; there simply aren't enough resources. A few years ago, some academic ecologists estimated the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet for humans, assuming a European standard of living (they use about a third of the energy and resources as Americans, but obviously aren't living in savagery). The estimate was 2 billion people, less than a third of what we already have, and about a fifth of what we are going to have by mid-century under the most optimistic scenarios. The implications are pretty scary.....................

perfessergee

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 12:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Welcome Perfes, good to hear from you. My sympathies on where you live (hey, I'm prejudiced!), but yes, I know they had improved it. And I agree about everything else you said, in spades! Excellent quote, too...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, November 5, 2009 1:38 PM

KWICKO

Ya know, I remember going through L.A. in '73, and it was just shocking. Coming into the area, you could see an enormous whiskey-colored cloud over the whole basin. And then, going through LA itself, I was astounded to see that every tree was brown and dead at about the 30-foot line. There was a solid line of death that hung (or at least that had gotten down to) about 30 feet above the road. I was 11 years old, and it had a huge impact on my view of pollution and conservation and how we actually could make so much of a difference that our environment could kill us.

I was back there in '86 for a couple weeks. It rained. Or it "somethinged". There was the drizzle-like stuff dripping from the air. It smelled like chemicals, and it burned the skin. But that said, it was much prettier in '86 than it had been in '73. And I went back for a few days in 2001, and it was very much improved. I love LA, but seemingly only in small doses, about every 15 years. :)

If I'm not mistaken, Houston now has worse air than LA. And thanks to the weather, Houston's pollution tends to become Austin's pollution. :(

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Friday, November 6, 2009 4:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"There's also the "I got mine, screw you" attitude. I loved the argument that "you can't stop logging, my great grandpa, grandpa and pa were loggers, what will I do to earn a living??". Given that continued logging would END logging anyway, it's a pathetically short-sighted view"

Hello,

I myself am not in favor of ending logging. I think wood is an excellent building material for many purposes, and is one which is thankfully renewable.

I would like to see a transition to sustainable logging, however. With new trees being grown at the same pace that old trees are cut down. The price of wood will necessarily increase as supply is limited, but that is acceptable and even desirable. The market will find a place where supply and demand meet, and wood will fetch a good price commensurate with its true value.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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