REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It's not rocket science!

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, October 18, 2009 07:26
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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


If the government dumps trillions into the military-industrial complex, it will do well. If the government dumps trillions into the financial sector and the stock market, they will do well. Stocks are up. CEOs are fat and happy. Meanwhile, Jane Average is having a hard time paying her medical bills, Joe Average just lost his job, their house lost 30% of its value and their credit card interest rate is at 30%.

If the US government had put its *ss behind Jane and Joe, they would be doing better despite whatever the happened to stock markets and CEO bonuses. It's not friggin' rocket science, it's all about priorites, and anyone who tells you it's too complicated to understand ... or that Jane and Joe somehow "depend" on the stock market and lavish CEO payouts... is blowing smoke. Because they're trying to obscure the fact that this really is us v. them.

Now, as to why current policy is unsound: The meltdown was caused by the BIGGEST wealth discrepancy since the Great Depression. (Yeah, funny how that happens, huh? Wealth discrepancy= economic depressions. ) The top 1% own as much as the bottom 95% combined. And since money does NOT "trickle down", injecting money AT THE TOP will only make things worse, not better. There will be a flurry of speculation as the ultra-wealthy try to figure out "where to put their (excess) money" (I'm thinking gold). Meanwhile, since there is no demand for goods (folks are too strapped for cash) no jobs will be created and infrastructure will not be revitalized in a way that makes us more productive/ efficient. Our productive and manufacturing base will shrink even further.



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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:52 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
... Joe Average just lost his job, their house lost 30% of its value and their credit card interest rate is at 30%.


What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


There are many Dems who are NOT on the side of fat-cats- unlike Repubs, who universally are. But there are far too many bought-and-paid-for Dems whose only loyalty is to their contributors. Max Baucus and Ben Nelson, for example, are actually voting AGAINST their constituency's voiced interest and in favor of big insurance.

Ya can't get more blatant that that!

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
... Joe Average just lost his job, their house lost 30% of its value and their credit card interest rate is at 30%.


What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.



Republicans would've come up with a mandatory insurance health care reform bill as well. Health care reform was in demand for the election. It's been a buzz word for a year now, even McCain had an idea for a bill, because the public was demanding one.

Any effort at drafting a bill, Republican or Democrat, would have ended up with a mandatory insurance provision because of lobbyist interests.

Both parties are running the economy into the ground, with help from corporations, because who it hurts is small business competitors. ESPECIALLY when the big companies are getting free hand-outs so they can stay afloat while everyone else goes under.

What we are seeing is the result of a liaison between government and corporate America. The results are not pretty.


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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


But you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Feingold, for instance, has been outstanding. Kaptur is a gem. There are many Dems who at least do more good than harm. And outside of the Dem party there are good folks as well.

But a lot of politicians need some serious *ss-kicking. Preferably right out of office, starting with Max Baucus and Ben Nelson and (one hopes) the rest of the "blue dog" Dems (in the House) and "conservative" Dems (in the Senate). Given that Max and Nelson are actually voting against what their constituency wants, they should be vulnerable in the upcoming election by being branded as sellouts.

Oh, and BTW- Tell Harry Reid that we want the public option!

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/po_senreid/?r=4924&id=6318-766721-
FZUUZvx

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:47 AM

SOCKPUPPET


A liaison dangeroux?

Speaking of? Wonder what percentage of that 30% interest is another tax?

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


You mean the 30% credit card interest rate??? Very little, if anything. Tell me... how much in corporate taxes do you think MasterCard really pays??? That 30% is just sheer out-and-out gouging.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"The meltdown was caused by the BIGGEST wealth discrepancy since the Great Depression."

Hello,

As someone who manned the front lines of the meltdown, let me put in my two cents.

The banks got cheap money from the government.

Banks make money by using money. This takes the form of investment, and one of their primary investments is loans.

With large quantities of available cheap money, they made large quantities of loans at inexpensive introductory rates.

The people got (temporarily) cheap money from the banks.

People tend to use money either A) to improve their living situation or B) to invest for returns.

One of the primary investments in both cases is real estate. People either upgraded their homes, bought second homes, or purchased investment properties.

The demand for real estate caused prices to rise.

Properties were now worth more, proving them as a good investment. The additional equity also meant that more money could be borrowed.

The low initial cost of loans also meant that people who normally could not afford loans were now able to afford loans.

Many people who could now afford loans were also plagued with varying credit difficulties.

Banks, anxious to tap this ready market, loosened loan standards. The banks with the loosest standards were able to make the most loans.

With ever-increasing real estate demand in the form of home purchases, home upgrades, second homes, and investment properties, real estate prices continued to escalate. Even people who should never have gotten a home loan were not in a position to default. They could sell their home for a profit and spin the wheel of fortune again, perhaps on a more luxurient property. Perhaps more than one.

A surprising number of ordinary citizens went into the real estate business. Flipping houses threatened to become a national pasttime, with Cable TV documenting the action. For a time, it seemed almost inevitable that even the most unlearned, unmonied buffoon could get a house, make token improvements, and sell it for profit.

As the real estate market continued to boom, the real estate loans themselves became a prized investment. Loans were bundled into groups, but the individual loans in the bundle were not adequately scrutinized. With the business booming, and profit almost inevitable, they seemed on the surface to be brilliant investments. Bundles of loans began to be traded like any speculative resource in the world. As a resource in sudden demand, the bundles escalated in price, multiplying their demand.

The economy was seemingly roaring along. Inevitably, interest rates were increased.

Money became more expensive. Loans became more expensive. Demand for loans began to wane. Home purchases began a moderate decline.

ARMS, the loans with low introductory rates, began to adjust. The increasing interest rates made previously affordable loans unaffordable.

Meanwhile, construction firms and other real estate investment schemes continued to crank out housing at incredible rates, due to their previous status as can't-lose-investment-material.

Suddenly, people were defaulting everywhere. People stopped buying houses. Massive amounts of real estate became unwanted.

The real estate loan bundles, previously thought to be incredibly sound investments, started filling with holes.

The downward spiral began.

This is what I saw. I was there. Issuing loans from my job at the bank. Buying a house. Watching vast tracks of Phoenix begin conversion into new housing that suddenly no one wanted. Watching my ARM reset as my home value plummeted. Watching the bank re-claim my home. Moving out under threat of eviction.

People were greedy and were playing with imaginary money- from the richest international investment magnate to the lowest ghetto home buyer. The only people who won the game were the intolerably few people who were smart enough to recognize the problem AND posessing of enough wisdom to get out while the getting was good.

The banks were key to everything, betting on an impossible scheme of ever-increasing property values while assuring everyone who wanted a loan that the terms didn't matter. Can't afford the ARM reset? Why, you won't have to. You can either refinance after proving your credit worthiness for a year or two, or sell at a profit. You CAN'T LOSE! And everyone wanted to believe it. Almost everyone bought into it. And almost everyone lost. Because the central condition under which the system could persist was an unsustainable condition: Home prices would have had to increase forever.

This is it. The problem, in concrete terms. Not some ambiguous "The rich are too rich" explanation. These are the actual hard mechanics of our downfall.

And I'm not at all sure that we aren't about to do it all again. The important players have been so shielded and rewarded for their part in this disaster, that I don't think anyone in positions of financial power will take away any good, long-term lessons from this. Already, I am hearing the telltale whispers of doom in my industry: "How can we start issuing more loans?"

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig:
Quote:

But a lot of politicians need some serious *ss-kicking. Preferably right out of office, starting with Max Baucus and Ben Nelson and (one hopes) the rest of the "blue dog" Dems (in the House) and "conservative" Dems (in the Senate). Given that Max and Nelson are actually voting against what their constituency wants, they should be vulnerable in the upcoming election by being branded as sellouts.

Oh, and BTW- Tell Harry Reid that we want the public option!

Word.

The "health reform" just voted on isn't; what it is, is the "Insurance Company Profit Protection and Enhancement Act", and you can thank the Conservadems for it when you're forced to buy insurance under the "individual mandate" or pay a fine. In my opinion: No public option; no individual mandate". But the insurance companies have us by the short hairs, and have turned this whole "reform" into a free-for-all gimme that will increase their profits tenfold. I don't blame Obama; I blame the Dems for not having a pair among them to hang together, and the paid-for Conservadems for doing exactly what they're paid to do.
Quote:

You mean the 30% credit card interest rate??? Very little, if anything. Tell me... how much in corporate taxes do you think MasterCard really pays???
There's a kicker. People grouse about taxes and want tax cuts for "trickle-down", etc., when the fact is that those making the most money usually pay the least taxes--everyone seems to think they're going to get rich like them, so want tax cuts. Make the uber-rich pay THEIR FAIR SHARE of taxes and it'd be a whole other ballgame.

Anthony, in my opinion you called it, word for word. Doesn't change the fact that we DO have the biggest wealth discrepancy since the Great Depression, didn't help, but what you reiterated, point by point, is what I believe.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

This is it. The problem, in concrete terms. Not some ambiguous "The rich are too rich" explanation. These are the actual hard mechanics of our downfall.
That might be "the mechanics" but that was not "the cause".

WHY were interest rates so cheap?

Why, to boost consumption and expand the economy, of course!

And WHY did the economy have to be boosted with cheap credit?

Maybe.. jusy maybe... it's because Jane and Joe Average's paycheck simply didn't keep up with inflation. Maybe it's because their real wages were falling?

Real wages still falling
Michael Mandel on August 16, 2006
www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2006/08/real
_wages_stil.html
.
---------------
What I find interesting is that we repeated the Roaring Twenties almost step by step, without learning a thing. Back then, the bubble was stocks and real estate. This time around, it was real estate and stocks. But underlying that speculative bubble, farmers were going out of business and wages were falling. Funny how that rings a bell...

----------

The healthiest economy in recent memory was during Clinton's administration. Now, Clinton was a scumbag and sold us down the river several different ways, but he did ONE GOOD THING for the economy: He raised the minimum wage. A LOT. He injected money AT THE BOTTOM, and made working pay.

And during that time, employment was up, the economy was humming along, Federal revenues went up, and the deficit was reduced.

Like I said: It's not rocket science.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:17 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Signy,

I'm a bit confused with your conclusions.

The first lowering of interest rates occurred Two Days after Clinton left office. You have three options:

1) There was a staggering rise in inflation immediately after Clinton left the White House (within 48 hours!), resulting in an economy that needed to be boosted with cheap credit. (Because paychecks simply weren't keeping up with inflation.)

2) Inflation had been running rampant throughout the Clinton years, and/or wages had been growing increasingly insufficient. This resulted in an economy that needed to be boosted with cheap credit. (Because paychecks simply weren't keeping up with inflation.)

3) Interest rates were lowered by the new administration for reasons unrelated to inflation or paychecks.

Can you think of a fourth option? Because what you have stated thus far makes no sense to me.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Tony- The economy didn't need much "priming" under Clinton. I don't understand your question.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:08 PM

DREAMTROVE


Banks invent money. The whole system is a scam. Our economy is probably less stable than the one in Everquest, and probably has less credibility.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I am sorry if I was unclear.

The first reduction of interest rates happened 2 days after Clinton left office.

You have issued the premise that Clinton's economy was a good one and that wages were good.

You have suggested that interest rates were lowered in order to stimulate an economy which was lagging because wages were not keeping pace with inflation.

These statements are in contradiction with facts. How do you reconcile them?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Banks invent money. The whole system is a scam. Our economy is probably less stable than the one in Everquest, and probably has less credibility.



Hello,

This I can agree with wholeheartedly.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA



There's a REASON Usury is looked down upon, universally hated, and often illegal.

And you're staring right down the barrel of it, thanks to Congressional Negligence, Corruption and with malice aforethought.

Worse, we can't even go back to a gold or silver standard cause there ain't even ENOUGH of it to cover that shitstorm of inflated fiat paper.

But one positive move would be rebacking it at a percentage, and then by cutting down the flood, increasing that percentage as things get better.

Even as a temporary* PR move, it'd still bump confidence in the currency.

-Frem

*Temporary, heheh, you can push it as that, but I am playing that one for boomerang effect cause I know damn well such an act would be as "temporary" as any tax ever is...

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:53 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

After every financial crisis, there seems to be a rush by government to restore order by convincing people that they can trust the banks. In this most recent crisis, banks who made idiotic decisions and insurance companies who made boneheaded policies were all rescued. The government lowered interest rates and issued money in droves to financial institutions with a commandment that they should start lending again. Lend more! Lend more! Extend consumer credit! For a while it was practically all I heard from day to day.

I find this all to be foolhardy.

People shouldn't trust any bank that would fail under the current crisis. Nor should they believe in any insurance company unable to meet its commitments. Nor should they trust a Federal Banking System that is asserting a remedy to a problem by invoking the identical conditions that created it to begin with. I am daily aghast and afraid. I hope that interest rates are raised rapidly and soon. I would like to see our nation evolve into one where the majority of people do not finance small purchases casually, and where large purchases are financed only with great trepidation.

The lure of Easy Money and Guaranteed Profit, even though patently and obviously false, is too great a lure. In a world where the Government does not shovel Easy Money at the Banks, (and the Banks can hence not shovel it at you) people might actually save money and die with substantial assets that aren't derived from a Life Insurance Policy.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

What I find interesting is that we repeated the Roaring Twenties almost step by step, without learning a thing. Back then, the bubble was stocks and real estate. This time around, it was real estate and stocks. But underlying that speculative bubble, farmers were going out of business and wages were falling. Funny how that rings a bell...



That's entirely by design. If you're one of the very, VERY rich, a depression is a great way to get richer. Sure, you'll take quite a hit in the short term, along with everyone else, but if you lose 50% of $85 billion, you're not going to be missing any meals. What you DO have, still, is the ability to buy up assets and grow exponentially, while the smaller fish are foundering in the shallows, just trying to stay alive for another day. Their loss is your gain.

Sure, people lose homes, businesses, jobs, livelihoods, and even their health and their lives - but what the fuck should you care, if you're one of the ultra-rich? You're making money in this economy, remember!

If you think this is odd, look up the playthings of the ultra-wealthy during the Great Depression. Deusenbergs were big, as were Bugattis. When a Model T cost $500, there were cars that cost over $20,000 - and they had a waiting list of ready buyers.

The rich will gladly grind you under as fertilizer for their dreams. Don't ever for a second think they won't.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Capitalism + "Everybody Wins" = Scam.

-F

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:36 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Capitalism + "Everybody Wins" = Scam.

-F

Uh, I'd say that would be an axiom. But truth that hurts cannot always be easily assimilated.
Wanna-be rich pinhead dopes will beg to differ, I fear.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:02 PM

DREAMTROVE


Mike, you're pretty spot on, except they don't hold stocks on the slide unless they're covered by shorts. They're looking to buy those stocks low, part of the reason for crashing them.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
But truth that hurts cannot always be easily assimilated.


And that's why man invented the sledgehammer.

Tactically, you gotta hand it to Xykon from Order of the Stick - dude knows his business.
(and man do I love this speech)

Xykon: Hey you know what really gets under my skin? Proverbially, of course? A century of wizards looking down their damn noses at me. I know people think I'm stupid. Because I'm not a wizard. Because I get bored easily. Because I have no interest in strategy or tactics or contingency planning. But see, I've learned a lot over the years since I died. A lot more than I learned during my life. And now I see planning doesn't matter. Strategy doesn't matter. Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed. For example, all I need to do is keep smacking you with Energy Drains, and eventually you won't be able to cast any of your fancy spells at all. Because yes, I am a sorcerer — and this magic is in my bones, not cribbed-off "Magic for Dummies". And I can keep casting the same friggin' spell at you until you roll over and die. You can have your finely-tuned watch -- give me the sledgehammer to the face any day.

Heh heh.

-F

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Tony... What I heard was that Alan Greenspan thought that Bush was going to be fiscal conservative, and dropped interest rates in anticipation.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony... What I heard was that Alan Greenspan thought that Bush was going to be fiscal conservative, and dropped interest rates in anticipation.



Hello,

If your argument is that the low interest rates were the result of an Ass anticipating the actions of a Monkey, then I am in full agreement.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Annnd there goes another keyboard!
Not to mention having to clean coffee off the monitor, lol.

Also worth a laugh, have you seen this ?
http://news.aol.com/article/vampire-obama-sinks-fangs-into-halloween/7
18342

Best of all that's funny from both ends, heh.

Of course, William Marshall did it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacula
Saw that tanked on a quart of rye, back in the day, showed it to Gus recently, who was most amused.

-F

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
... Joe Average just lost his job, their house lost 30% of its value and their credit card interest rate is at 30%.


What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.


I was not sure if you were my sockpuppet before, but you seem to be dittoing my logic.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Tony - heh heh heh!

'Zactly!

Greenspan pretty much held Clinton's feet to the fire, then opened the purse strings for GWB. Not sayin' the actions of The Fed are politically- motivated, or anything...
Quote:

What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.
Unfortunately, yes. The health-care overhaul, which COULD have been a significant benefit for the average person (if taxes on the wealthy had been cranked up a few percentage points and the health insurances been smacked with actual competition) turned into a warm juicy blow-job for the insurance industry. VAT is the most regressive tax possible. Not sure about the effect of cap & trade on Jane and Joe, but as a rule I've found that C&T doesn't work, environmentally-speaking, so its a bad idea at the outset. It's all bc of the corrosive effect of MONEY on our politics.

Some of the Dems needs to grow a pair of huevos.

BTW- I got a letter back from Feinstein about the Patriot Act. "Recent arrests show the need for continued surviellance for terrorists..." She's just a Repub in drag, as far as I'm concerned, and needs to be voted out ASAP.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:41 AM

PIRATECAT


Yeh but it's not that bad I just bought a hot coffee, 2 McGriddles, and a newspaper to look for a job for just under 5 Bucks.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yeah, and I just bought an apple for 5 cents!




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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:59 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony - heh heh heh!

'Zactly!

Greenspan pretty much held Clinton's feet to the fire, then opened the purse strings for GWB. Not sayin' the actions of The Fed are politically- motivated, or anything...
Quote:

What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.
Unfortunately, yes. The health-care overhaul, which COULD have been a significant benefit for the average person (if taxes on the wealthy had been cranked up a few percentage points and the health insurances been smacked with actual competition) turned into a warm juicy blow-job for the insurance industry. VAT is the most regressive tax possible. Not sure about the effect of cap & trade on Jane and Joe, but as a rule I've found that C&T doesn't work, environmentally-speaking, so its a bad idea at the outset. It's all bc of the corrosive effect of MONEY on our politics.

Some of the Dems needs to grow a pair of huevos.

BTW- I got a letter back from Feinstein about the Patriot Act. "Recent arrests show the need for continued surviellance for terrorists..." She's just a Repub in drag, as far as I'm concerned, and needs to be voted out ASAP.


Cap & Trade tax estimates run from $500 to $2,500 per household due the the projected higher costs of electricity, gasoline, and manufactured goods. I do not believe it will be enacted, but it might. I also don't think the VAT will happen, but it might. No one knows what the final Healthcare Bill will look like, but I got a feeling its' gonna cost me something.

I risk the wrath of my political peers on this, BUT I actually support Barney Frank's idea of a "surcharge" on income tax for the wealthiest Americans....what's another 2% or 3% gonna mean to them when they're making millions? It's small potatos, but it could mean the difference between fiscal solvency or not for this country. I hope it gets enacted.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Recent arrests show the need for continued surviellance for terrorists..."

I told you that they were being put in the paper to support keeping the Patriot Act as-is.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Rue: Indeed. But there is NOTHING to indicate that these arrests were made as a result of the so-called Patriot Act. In fact, likely the opposite: careful, legal investigation based on warrants.

River, love.... We have an accord. YAAAAR!!!!

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:26 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Riverlove.... We have an accord. YAAAAR!!!!


To quote from David Lynch's Blue Velvet: "It's a strange world." When I see SNL skits going after Obama, when "The Nation" goes after Obama, when Dems fight Dems, when Lindsey Graham attacks Glenn Beck, or when Riverlove & SignyM agree on something; all these things have me wonderin' just what the heck is going on in this world.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I know. I very specifically searched for ANY mention of techniques, technology, sources etc that could be attributed to the USPATRIOT Act and didn't find any.

It's that implication I was mentioning. We are supposed to - in a very non-conscious way - put the items together - the USPATRIOT Act coming up for a vote + the terrorism arrests, and come down on the side of the USPATRIOT Act (oh, yeah, I guess it's a good thing). It's very subtle.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Rue: Indeed. But there is NOTHING to indicate that these arrests were made as a result of the so-called Patriot Act. In fact, likely the opposite: careful, legal investigation based on warrants.

River, love.... We have an accord. YAAAAR!!!!



Ummmm... Signy? Rue? I'd really highly suggest you lasses track down a copy of Dan Carlin's "Common Sense" podcast from last week, titled "Sshhhh!" He goes on at great length about how the Patriot Act was NEVER going to be used on us common folk (remember that?), but ONLY against terrorists (yeah, right!). And last year, the kinds of things it allows (sneak-n-peek warrants, warrantless wiretaps, etc.) were used in almost EIGHT HUNDRED criminal cases - of which a whopping THREE of them were actually connected to terrorism suspects in any way.

THIS is why they don't want to give the power back. Which is also why it should never be given them in the first place.



Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Riverlove.... We have an accord. YAAAAR!!!!


To quote from David Lynch's Blue Velvet: "It's a strange world." When I see SNL skits going after Obama, when "The Nation" goes after Obama, when Dems fight Dems, when Lindsey Graham attacks Glenn Beck, or when Riverlove & SignyM agree on something; all these things have me wonderin' just what the heck is going on in this world.



You left one out: When Lindsey Graham is outright attacked and shouted down by his own supporters at his own Town Hall meeting. Look it up. It just happened a couple days ago. I shit you not.

It's funny - Most of us come from some wildly divergent political backgrounds, but we're all in agreement on at least SOME issues. Shows ya how shitty things have gotten, eh?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:35 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Riverlove.... We have an accord. YAAAAR!!!!
To quote from David Lynch's Blue Velvet: "It's a strange world." When I see SNL skits going after Obama, when "The Nation" goes after Obama, when Dems fight Dems, when Lindsey Graham attacks Glenn Beck, or when Riverlove & SignyM agree on something; all these things have me wonderin' just what the heck is going on in this world.
----------------------------
You left one out: When Lindsey Graham is outright attacked and shouted down by his own supporters at his own Town Hall meeting. Look it up. It just happened a couple days ago. I shit you not.

It's funny - Most of us come from some wildly divergent political backgrounds, but we're all in agreement on at least SOME issues. Shows ya how shitty things have gotten, eh?




I saw that clip last night. I believe those 3 folks that raised the loudest ruckus were the executive committee for the local Church of Rattlesnake-Handling Miracle Cure Healing and Tax Return Services. My personal problem with Lindsey is that he's usually full of shit. I was also upset and a bit horrified at Mr. Graham last year when he gave a speech at the Republican Convention where he came out with his new haircut and shiny suit and he went off like Joseph Goebbels against the Dems.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:

What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.



I went off on a tangent before, sorry about that. You do have a point here.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA



*opens a vendor stall*
Pitchforks, GIT yer pitchforks, tar and feathers heeeah!
Torches by the dozen! cash n carry!
Piiitchforks, GIT yer piiitchforks HEAH!


Free enterprise, yanno ?


-F

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Aw SHIT Frem!!!!

Ya gonna sell some keyboard and monitor cleaner with that????????

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:59 AM

BYTEMITE


He's gonna make a killing.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:04 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:

What better time then for some new Dem. taxes to be dumped on us? What better time for the Government to force mandatory insurance on us? What better time for Pelosi to add VATs to our lives? What better time to initiate energy cap & trade taxes on businesses and individuals? The Dems, so-called champions of the little guy, have propped up the fatcats, and are set to squash the rest of us with additional taxes and Government. I know that I cannot wait to pay them.



I went off on a tangent before, sorry about that. You do have a point here.


I read your post & did not see it that way at all. No tangent & nothing to be sorry for. You had points to make and you made them. There are few posters left here anymore in RWED, so everyone's contribution is important.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:12 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




No, it's not rocket science, it's rocket psyence.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

*opens a vendor stall*
Pitchforks, GIT yer pitchforks, tar and feathers heeeah!
Torches by the dozen! cash n carry!
Piiitchforks, GIT yer piiitchforks HEAH!


Free enterprise, yanno ?


-F



Gawd. Dammit.

Got anything in that kiosk to clean chocolate milk off a keyboard?


And ya know, that AIN'T a bad idea at all. Open up just outside the town hall meetings and the voting locations come election time...



There really are days when I honestly think we're going to see the angry mob rise as one and dispense some rough justice. But then I see that a new reality show is coming on, and the feeling passes.


But deep down inside, part of me still would not be a bit surprised to see it happen. Imagine turning into your exclusive gated community, only to be faced with the horror of seeing your nouveau-riche neighbors' lifeless bodies hanging from the light poles lining the streets. Might make ya think about taking that multi-million-dollar "bonus" from ShittyBank, eh?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


The first reduction of interest rates happened 2 days after Clinton left office.

You have issued the premise that Clinton's economy was a good one and that wages were good.

You have suggested that interest rates were lowered in order to stimulate an economy which was lagging because wages were not keeping pace with inflation.

These statements are in contradiction with facts. How do you reconcile them?



Like this:

[Kwicko waves hands rapidly back and forth in front of Anthony's face and runs out of the room]


See?

Now what were you asking about?




Sorry, I just couldn't resist typing out the visual that that post brought to my mind... Yes, my inner 10-year-old is driving right now. Just in time for "Where the Wild Things Are" to come out this weekend!

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:49 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
There are few posters left here anymore in RWED, so everyone's contribution is important.

*Hugs all around!*

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
There are few posters left here anymore in RWED, so everyone's contribution is important.

*Hugs all around!*



Wouldn't that be somethin'...

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:22 PM

CHRISISALL


I lub you guize!
*Hulk hugs*


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And ya know, that AIN'T a bad idea at all. Open up just outside the town hall meetings and the voting locations come election time...


Umm, we already DO stuff like that.

Set up shop just outside the legal limits, or nearby on someones property with their permission in exchange for a cut of the take, and make signs to order, as well as having a wide selection of buttons, pins and bumper stickers.

If I can remember which box it's in, I still have one of those Nixon buttons.
"Don't change dicks in the middle of a screw, vote for NIXON in '72!"
Won't sell it, but I've been known to wear it to republican political events.


-F

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Y'know, I've got an old campaign button - actually, it APPEARS to be a small belt buckle - that I keep around somewhere, too. It's an old daguerreotype of Samuel Tilden, the New York governor and conservative pick in the 1876 Presidential election. Tilden won the popular vote, but the Senate gave the presidency to incumbent Rutherford B. Hayes.

I have no idea why I have that button - er, buckle - but I picked it up for a dime at a garage sale, so it stays around...




Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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