REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Pirates Attack Wrong Ship!

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Saturday, October 10, 2009 22:22
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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 4:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Whoopsie - looks like that could've gone better...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091007/wl_africa_afp/somaliapiracyshippi
ngfrance_20091007151820


Quote:

NAIROBI (AFP) – Somali pirates attempted to storm the French navy's 18,000 tonne flagship in the Indian Ocean after mistaking it for a cargo vessel, the French military said on Wednesday.
The crew of La Somme, a 160-metre (525-foot) command vessel and fuel tanker, easily saw off the brazen night-time assault by lightly armed fighters on two lightweight skiffs and captured five pirates, a spokesman said.
"The pirates, who because of the darkness took the French ship for a commercial vessel, were on board two vessels and opened fire with Kalashnikovs," Admiral Christophe Prazuck said in Paris.
La Somme is the French command vessel in the Indian Ocean, overseeing French air, sea and land forces fighting Somali pirates and hunting terrorists under the banner of the US-led Operation Enduring Freedom.



Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams


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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This demonstrates the correct technique to deter pirates in the short term-

Outfit merchant vessels as Q-ships and sail them up and down the coast. Then when the pirates attack, pop the .50 cal and 20mm guns and rake em. They won't be able to trust that any ship isn't a deathtrap, and may abandon the endeavor.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:12 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

This demonstrates the correct technique to deter pirates in the short term-

Outfit merchant vessels as Q-ships and sail them up and down the coast. Then when the pirates attack, pop the .50 cal and 20mm guns and rake em. They won't be able to trust that any ship isn't a deathtrap, and may abandon the endeavor.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner




Perhaps the long term solution should deal with this:


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1644219/somalia_piracy_its_th
e_pollution_not.html


http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/268581/somalia_used_as_
toxic_dumping_ground.html



while one does not justify the other, the inaction of the international community to do anything about the dumping of waste in Africa, as well as the overfishing by foreign trawlers in the area is a real problem.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.h
tml


boarding of ALL suspect vessels in the area would be justified, and if there is a question of who gets people doing this...

give them to the pirates




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 12:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA



You know what the difference between a pirate and a customs inspector is ?

Perceived legitimacy.

And yes, the international community DID to some degree provoke this by not respecting that countries waters - as such, those "pirates" could legitmately be called the Somali Naval Forces if you looked at it that way.

I did see this newsclip a couple days back, and my only response to it was to laugh - if a pack of pirates is stupid enough to jump an armed naval vessel, that's just the free market in action, innit now ?

Although that's not HALF as funny as the ones who got OUTRUN by a damn cruise liner, the M/S Nautica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Nautica

Were I the captain, once I was sure we were losin em, I would have handed off the con to the first officer and gone to the stern to flip em the bird personally as we sailed away.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 2:22 AM

JONGSSTRAW


These pirates are just youngsters with no education and no hope. They have few options for survival. I doubt anyone in their situation would do differently.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
the inaction of the international community to do anything about the dumping of waste in Africa, as well as the overfishing by foreign trawlers in the area is a real problem.


I believe Jefferson made the same argument.

Your saying they have a legitimate beef and that the attacks are somehow justified. If that is so, then this is not piracy...its war. Perhaps we need to start treating these conficts in the fashion you describe...war, total and complete.

The world has seen America fighting for nearly eight years, and at various times throughout the past fifty...perhaps they need to see America go to war, thats not been seen since the surrender of Japan in 1945.

Clearly fighting alone does not seem to get the job done, but we have a pretty solid record when it comes to war.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:16 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
These pirates are just youngsters with no education and no hope. They have few options for survival. I doubt anyone in their situation would do differently.


Piracy has been around a long time. So has farming, fishing, hunting, gathering, working, building, and the rule of law.

History proves you wrong. Most people have in the situation these folks are in have chosen another path. Piracy, like any other form of violent crime, is far easier and requires less imagination then legitimate work.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:21 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
These pirates are just youngsters with no education and no hope. They have few options for survival. I doubt anyone in their situation would do differently.


Piracy has been around a long time. So has farming, fishing, hunting, gathering, working, building, and the rule of law.

History proves you wrong. Most people have in the situation these folks are in have chosen another path. Piracy, like any other form of violent crime, is far easier and requires less imagination then legitimate work.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.


What work? This is the horn of Africa. I suppose they could bury the dead all day. That would keep them busy. History never proves anything except to document the past. Everything changes in an ever-evolving world. These a'int the Barbary Pirates.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:46 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
the inaction of the international community to do anything about the dumping of waste in Africa, as well as the overfishing by foreign trawlers in the area is a real problem.


I believe Jefferson made the same argument.

Your saying they have a legitimate beef and that the attacks are somehow justified. If that is so, then this is not piracy...its war. Perhaps we need to start treating these conficts in the fashion you describe...war, total and complete.

The world has seen America fighting for nearly eight years, and at various times throughout the past fifty...perhaps they need to see America go to war, thats not been seen since the surrender of Japan in 1945.

Clearly fighting alone does not seem to get the job done, but we have a pretty solid record when it comes to war.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.




No, I did state one act does not justify the other


But, as you are a lawyer I am surprised you missed my point.


Many of these little conflicts could be handled before they become conflicts if the mechanisms of international law were effective, and usable by some of these smaller or unpopular nations.

The problems of toxic waste dumping were presented at the UN as early as 1998? ( I think, I'd have to go hunting for the cite if you want it ) and nothing was done.

The EU has taken some action on a few very blatant abuses, be they don't seem to want to step in ( and the dumping here is largely from their membership )

The first gulf war and the issue of Kuwaiti cross border drilling.... all may have been avoided with an effective legal process

I'm sure many other conflicts could, and probably should have been headed off before military action was necessary...

maybe save lives, money, etc



" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:00 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What work? This is the horn of Africa.


Are you saying there is nothing that needs done in Africa or that they are simply incapable of doing anything besides piracy or simply rolling over and dying.

Seems if they have a boat, they can figure out how to fish. Lots of jobs. Somebody to make nets, somebody to fish, somebody to maintain the boat, somebody to unload the fish, somebody to sell the fish...seems to me that with a little imagination and some microeconomics, they have the makings of an industry.

Or they can use guns to steal.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:23 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What work? This is the horn of Africa.


Are you saying there is nothing that needs done in Africa or that they are simply incapable of doing anything besides piracy or simply rolling over and dying.

Seems if they have a boat, they can figure out how to fish. Lots of jobs. Somebody to make nets, somebody to fish, somebody to maintain the boat, somebody to unload the fish, somebody to sell the fish...seems to me that with a little imagination and some microeconomics, they have the makings of an industry.

Or they can use guns to steal.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.




Until the only fish you bring in have three eyes




I also read a story about foreign fishing trawlers running down the local fishing boats...



" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What work? This is the horn of Africa.


Are you saying there is nothing that needs done in Africa or that they are simply incapable of doing anything besides piracy or simply rolling over and dying.

Seems if they have a boat, they can figure out how to fish. Lots of jobs. Somebody to make nets, somebody to fish, somebody to maintain the boat, somebody to unload the fish, somebody to sell the fish...seems to me that with a little imagination and some microeconomics, they have the makings of an industry.

Or they can use guns to steal.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.



But the stealing is so much more lucrative - sounds like you have a burgeoning "free-market capitalist" economy in development there. Geezer should be so proud... They're living the American Dream!

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:18 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Somalia: Piracy vs. Blind Western Justice


http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2009/379/41.shtml


By Dalmar Kahin
Somali teenagers, of course, remain potential pirates—a menace to society. So to thwart chaos in high seas, the “civilized” and “enlightened” Western world needs to not only freeze the pirates’ assets—the fish—but also obliterate their dens. For they [pirates] pose a threat to shipping lanes; or more precisely, they create a formidable obstacle to illegal fishing incursion into Somalia’s coast—a condoned theft.
The same European countries that stormed the coast of Somalia under false pretext of fighting off piracy not only pillaged Somalia’s rich marine resources but also poisoned Somali generations. For instance, both French and Spanish fishing vessels looted Somali fish at will.
During dinner, for many Europeans in London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Anthem and other cities, while they devour a lavish buffet of looted Somali fish, remain horrified to watch video clips of starving Somalis—perhaps form coastal communities—on TV.
As captive audiences, the European viewers blame the pirates just as the Media feeds viewers with the usual undiluted dozes of disinformation.
The ignorance towards the root cause of Somali piracy is amplified by the insipid response from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to piracy. She states, "These pirates are criminals…they are armed gangs on the sea, and those plotting attacks must be stopped and those carrying them out must be brought to justice." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/16/2544018.htm
But what the Media and Hillary Clinton conveniently avoid informing their ever gullible audiences as well as TV worshipers of North Americans is: Somali piracy stems from the unabated European and Asian illegal fishing expeditions and toxic dumping into Somalia’s waters. Portraying pirates as savage criminals while putting a lipstick smudge on the vicious vultures pillaging Somalia’s fish and dumping nuclear waste into its waters is a testimony of how the scheme is rarely mentioned much less condemned.
Italian and Swedish companies, among others, dumped tones of toxic waste into Somalia crystal clear waters. After the tsunami much of their deadly poisons were exposed. See the CBC report: http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/internationalus/pirates_of_somal
ia.html

Yet, the Europeans audaciously expect pirates to abase their heads once they encounter European flagged ships. Don’t forget the illegal fishing vessels, the ships that dump toxic waste into Somalia’s waters, the Western civilian ships, and NATO navy ships carry the same flags. Yet the West expresses shock and dismay when pirates attack randomly.
Separating truths from lies
• Somalia loses $300 to $500 dollars worth of fish per year to foreign intruders
• Somali pirates get $30 to $50 million dollars per year for ransom—10% of what Somalia loses to foreign trawlers
• Toxic waste dumped into Somalia’s waters killed over 300 people. Somali coastal communities suffer from cancer, skin diseases, gum bleeding, and miscarriages
• Europeans waste management companies calculated: poisoning Somalis is far more inexpensive than storing their [European] toxic waste in Europe. To dump a container of toxic waste into Somalia’ waters costs less than $2.50. Not even hazardous warning signs are required. On the other hand, the same container costs over $1000 to store it in Europe. Again, Europeans are saving millions of dollars while poisoning millions of Somali children. Brazenly, the Italian and Swedish companies argue that Somali leaders—factional warlords that never controlled more than few blocks in Mogadishu—signed the agreement to dump the toxic into Somalia
• Pirates have never killed, tortured or poisoned any of their captives
• U.S., EU, NATO and Asian forces plan to attack pirate bases. From air, however, pirates, fishers, and civilians look the same. But the West doesn't understand why pirates cannot distinguish civilian ships from fishing vessels. Forced to abandon fishing, a Somali pirate who perhaps has his mother dying from cancer caused by toxic waste could not care less whether he hijacks a fish trawler or a civilian yacht. He fails to distinguish ships from one another for the same reasons that multinational trespassers fail to tell a pirate from a civilian. Nor does he acknowledge the plight of his captives for the same reasons that the world turns a blind eye to his family’s ordeal.
Rapping Africa never loses steam, however; reasons change. Through the eyes of some European leeches, just as they argue millions of Africans slaves were sold by none other than their African tribal chiefs, today the Europeans insist that tones of toxic waste dumped into Africa are approved by small Africa gangs, so how dare you blame the “noble” people of Europe.
As for piracy, of course it is illegal; more illegal, immoral and lethal is dumping toxic waste into Somalia’s waters. The $30 to $ 50 millions paid fro ransom to pirates is a theft, however; the $300 to $500 millions worth of tuna-fish looted from Somalia’s waters, as well as the millions of dollars saved through cheap waste-disposal system in Somalia remains “the” bigger theft—a condoned gang rape.
No doubt, piracy curbed illegal fishing in Somalia’s waters, however; European and Asian fishing fleets still enjoy scooping out Somalia’s rich marine resources under the watchful eye of multinational forces. And by the time the blind Western justice is restored to its 20/20 vision, much of Somalia will be a wasteland—nothing to salvage.
Although Somalia remains one of the most raped and brutalized nation on earth, much of the blame lies within the Somalis failure to set their differences aside, guard their land and its resource. Put down the gun; pick up the pen.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"History never proves anything except to document the past."

Even worse, it's written by the winners. So it certainly can't be considered an unbiased record. I suspect any other solution Hero is thinking of has been tried, and simply was not documented for the reason that it wasn't a winning strategy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:14 PM

AG05


See, I'd buy the poor fisherman angle a whole lot more if it were fishing boats (or ships dumping waste) that were being attacked. but it's not. It's commercial transport vessels and passenger ships. Which seems to me that the Somalis in question are not attacking the ships and people which most directly threaten their ancient and noble profession, but the ships that can provide the most profit. The fishing thing may have had some peripheral impact on the upswing of piracy at first, but I can't imagine it took to long before even the successful fisherman decided there was more money to be made knocking off transports.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:18 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Are you saying there is nothing that needs done in Africa or that they are simply incapable of doing anything besides piracy or simply rolling over and dying.


I am forced to agree with Hero here.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The fishing thing may have had some peripheral impact on the upswing of piracy at first, but I can't imagine it took to long before even the successful fisherman decided there was more money to be made knocking off transports.

Again, repeat after me...

You know what the difference between a pirate and a customs inspector is ?

Perceived legitimacy.


You don't like the toll, don't sail in their waters.
I know that's drastically oversimplifying it, but what gives US the right to decide which other nations policies within their OWN waters are valid or not ?
Outside of em, meh - fire at will.

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:33 PM

AG05


Customs inspections usually involve less supressing fire?

Who are we (or who are they, for that matter) to dictate who's waters are whose in an endless ocean? Should the waters of our world ocean not be free for all to ply without fear of... whatever, I'm getting tired of this fuzzy bunny line of thinking. Q-ships for everybody!!!





Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:44 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


So, when I show up on your coastline and start pitching barrels overboard.....


don't you be dictating to me lmao




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:52 PM

AG05


like I said, I could understand them shooting up barrel-dumping ships. But there's no money in it, so they hit cargo ships instead.

Why don't shipping companies hire those Blackwater dudes for protection? Mercenaries vs. Pirates, that'd make some good reality TV right there. We could take bets.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:06 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


You wouldn't just hit the dumping ships, you'd hit anything wave the same damn flag...

and if you didn't see what flag it was because you have a shitty little boat and no real navy

any asshole foreigner becomes fair game





" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

The fishing thing may have had some peripheral impact on the upswing of piracy at first, but I can't imagine it took to long before even the successful fisherman decided there was more money to be made knocking off transports.

Again, repeat after me...

You know what the difference between a pirate and a customs inspector is ?

Perceived legitimacy.


You don't like the toll, don't sail in their waters.
I know that's drastically oversimplifying it, but what gives US the right to decide which other nations policies within their OWN waters are valid or not ?
Outside of em, meh - fire at will.

-F




Hello,

I was under the impression that the pirates were seizing ships in international waters and then retreating to domestic waters to avoid pursuit.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AG05:
Customs inspections usually involve less supressing fire?


Ah, you've never been to Columbia, I see.

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I was under the impression that the pirates were seizing ships in international waters and then retreating to domestic waters to avoid pursuit


Huhwha ?

That makes as much "sense" logistically as Mexican cartels supposedly coming across the border to buy shoddy, overpriced american semi-autos and then smuggling them back across the border - instead of having their suppliers chuck a couple AKs in with the kilos.

Given the size, speed and quality of the boats involved in this "piracy", I find that claim extraordinarily dubious, honestly.

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:00 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm from Florida, where you can get to international waters, gamble, and return in the space of a few hours on a slow ship. Are you saying this exceeds the capabilities of the pirates?

If cruise liners are violating the sovereign waters of Somalia, I'm surprised. That would seem like an easy no-no to avoid.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:42 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


# On November 15, 2008, Somali pirates seized the supertanker MV Sirius Star, 450 miles off the coast of Kenya. The ship was carrying around $100 million worth of oil and had a 25-man crew. This marked the largest tonnage vessel ever seized by pirates.[68]

Hello,

Pulled this from wikipedia.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Thanks for the info, Anthony - although that would for damned sure take more than the rinky-dink boats we've been shown so far, and better navigation, logistics and cohesion than we've been lead to believe.

Kinda hard to portray em as rinkydink rowboat pirates in one hand, and on the other, a dreaded scourge of the seas - which is kinda what the media has been doing.

Once they're out in international waters though, they're fair game, and yeah, privateers would be a wonderful solution - keep Blackwater busy doing something other than plotting a rightwing coup.

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:52 PM

GINOBIFFARONI




it appears the majority of the boardings happened in coastal waters, most in the gulf of aden.



" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:35 PM

SOCKPUPPET


Quote:

These pirates are just youngsters with no education and no hope. They have few options for survival. I doubt anyone in their situation would do differently.


The Somali Navy explanation was closer. Many were formerly Somali Coast Guard. They are not fools. Also, pirates are cool. I find it surprising that fellow browncoats would think otherwise.

ETA: As for these specific pirates of whom the thread was about:

These are without a doubt the worst pirates I've ever heard of.


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Friday, October 9, 2009 2:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AG05:
like I said, I could understand them shooting up barrel-dumping ships. But there's no money in it, so they hit cargo ships instead.

Why don't shipping companies hire those Blackwater dudes for protection? Mercenaries vs. Pirates, that'd make some good reality TV right there. We could take bets.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.



I'd put my money on the pirates. Blackwater hasn't exactly done a stellar job, even when facing an enemy armed with such high-tech weapons as rocks and homemade pipe bombs. Put 'em up against a foe that was born and raised on the sea, and you'll have lots of nice pictures of "American contractors" stripped naked, burned, and hung from their own mast.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Friday, October 9, 2009 4:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It seems obvious to me that there is more than one group of pirates at work. Some have the organization, equipment, and sophistication needed to take big ships 450 miles offshore. Others are people who say, "Hey, I've got a boat..."

This matches the history of old-world pirates, whose equipment, sophistication, and training varied widely.

I notice from the map that a lot of attacks are happening as ships are passing through that channel of water to the north, which makes sense. It's a good bottleneck to take advantage of.

For my own part, I have a difficult time viewing these pirates as rebels with a cause. Unless that cause is 'robbing everyone within reach.' The Somalis are absolutely poor, desperate people, but that situation can't be fixed by preying on ships at sea. Piracy is, as has been said before, the easy way out.

The enemies they need to deal with are within the borders of their own nation. If the citizens are not prepared to deal with those enemies, they need to take their boats and flee to another country.

To be blunt about it: If you don't have one bullet for your own tyrants, and you don't have the balls to sail your boat to fairer waters, you best not use your bullets and boats against me. I have no pity for that bullshit.

--Abthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, October 9, 2009 5:37 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Sockpuppet:

These are without a doubt the worst pirates I've ever heard of.



But you *have* heard of them.


Quote:

AnthonyT:

I have a difficult time viewing these pirates as rebels with a cause.




Tony,

Nah, I gotta agree with Frem, the only difference between pirates and govt. is recognition. But we've been through this one before. I agree that there's a wide variety of pirates, but many have been making demands for a while re: fishing and dumping.

Desperate reckless ne'erdowell bad boys who have at least a nominal nobel cause and go on very dangerous missions, and oh, have boats? They must get a lot of tail.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 6:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I'd buy the poor fisherman angle a whole lot more if it were fishing boats (or ships dumping waste) that were being attacked. but it's not. It's commercial transport vessels and passenger ships."

By that logic the high pecentage of people in the US who can't get work should be attacking store owners, factory managers and the like, rather than making and dealing drugs. But that doesn't happen.

I suspect it's because one is far more lucrative than the other.

It does give rise to an idea though: the COST of keeping people vested in the system is reliable employment for all that pays something above starvation wages. The COST of getting them back in the system, given that the alternative can be far more rewarding, is much, much higher. And the COST of dealing with the alternative economy in terms of crime and punishment is also very high.

It makes one wonder (well, it make ME wonder) WHY a sane society would NOT want to prevent large-scale alienation in the first place - with the comparatively simple and cheap preventative of full employment with decent jobs.
***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd put my money on the pirates. Blackwater hasn't exactly done a stellar job, even when facing an enemy armed with such high-tech weapons as rocks and homemade pipe bombs. Put 'em up against a foe that was born and raised on the sea, and you'll have lots of nice pictures of "American contractors" stripped naked, burned, and hung from their own mast.


You say this like it's a bad thing ?

Umm, Blackwaters operational security is good, but it ain't THAT good, and they seem to be right eagerly awaiting the "day of the rope" when they get to hang all us Librrulls, Muslims, Pagans, Gays, Ay-rabs and other 'traitors to humanity' - along with a very strong impression they'll be getting that opportunity pretty soon now, and confident enough about it to concern me.

Besides, we all know the bastards love shooting up people darker than them, so why not keep them occupied somewhere the hell OTHER THAN HERE, yes ?

I don't have a lotta sympathy for friggin pirates, mind you - just that a lot of this is kinda hypocritical and two faced when we'll drop the hammer on the pirates, and look the other way for the dumpers.

This is one of the few cases where I think neighboring nations oughta use this opportunity to expand their borders - they already have to have heavier security due to this mess, so why not push it out there a couple hundred yards at a time, absorb the population willing to become citizens of the absorbing nation, and give them a safe harbor on the new land to rebuild their homes and lives - be rough, but what the hell else to do about it, invade ?

Just a thought on the matter.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It makes one wonder (well, it make ME wonder) WHY a sane society would NOT want to prevent large-scale alienation in the first place - with the comparatively simple and cheap preventative of full employment with decent jobs.


I don't wonder at all, most of our current 'societies' - specifically including ours, are NOT sane, and are based on sociopathic principles learned as a survival and advancement trait, which become amplified as passed on to future generations, and up till recently, we even had something REAL damn close to ethnic cleansing (the hellcamps) for kids which tried to hold to their humanity despite our efforts to crush it out.

We don't HAVE sane societies - and correcting that is the primary goal of folks like me and HKCav.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 9, 2009 3:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd put my money on the pirates. Blackwater hasn't exactly done a stellar job, even when facing an enemy armed with such high-tech weapons as rocks and homemade pipe bombs. Put 'em up against a foe that was born and raised on the sea, and you'll have lots of nice pictures of "American contractors" stripped naked, burned, and hung from their own mast.


You say this like it's a bad thing ?



You must've read it wrong, then.

No, I think Blackwater is just about frakking useless, and would prove themselves so almost instantaneously if they attempted to go to sea. I've no love for them at all.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 7:15 PM

AG05


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I'd buy the poor fisherman angle a whole lot more if it were fishing boats (or ships dumping waste) that were being attacked. but it's not. It's commercial transport vessels and passenger ships."

I suspect it's because one is far more lucrative than the other.

It does give rise to an idea though: the COST of keeping people vested in the system is reliable employment for all that pays something above starvation wages. The COST of getting them back in the system, given that the alternative can be far more rewarding, is much, much higher. And the COST of dealing with the alternative economy in terms of crime and punishment is also very high.

It makes one wonder (well, it make ME wonder) WHY a sane society would NOT want to prevent large-scale alienation in the first place - with the comparatively simple and cheap preventative of full employment with decent jobs.
***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



It may well be that the cost of full employment with decent jobs is higher than the cost of dealing with the criminal element. Most likely because, as you said, the criminal economy is far more lucrative. 10 grand a week slinging rocks or 2 grand a month digging ditches? Enough people would continue to choose the criminal route that the costs of arrest/prosecution/incarceration/rehab/reintegration would not go away.

I'd be willing to bet that piracy would continue unabated in Somalia, even if the dumping ceased and the fish population returned overnight.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 9:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Evil cause they're evil ?
Nah, I don't buy that argument, never have.

People prefer to do "honest" work for their money cause it gives them a sense of accomplishment, makes them feel like they're contributing something to the world, and feel good about themselves.

Also, for the same reason folks don't panhandle for a couple extra bucks on their lunch break - the whole self respect issue.

But when you cut off those opportunities and give em someone to maybe blame, even if that blame is inappropriate or misguided....

Remember, I deal with youths who have often enough truly been shafted by our own society and most of the time are initially quite rabid about the matter, and bent on some seriously counterproductive and misguided retaliation about it before shown a better way.

Many national policies are in essence, the flow of many personal policies, as such a psychosis like that, without any real check against it, can become national in a very short period of time, indeed it can, history shows many examples.

The Somalis feel shafted by the international community and they're quite pissed about it, they even have at least some bit of cause, HOWEVER - yes, they're acting in a counterproductive and self destructive fashion.

I've offered the only clever idea *I* could think of already though, and am open to any better ones.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 4:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd put my money on the pirates. Blackwater hasn't exactly done a stellar job, even when facing an enemy armed with such high-tech weapons as rocks and homemade pipe bombs. Put 'em up against a foe that was born and raised on the sea, and you'll have lots of nice pictures of "American contractors" stripped naked, burned, and hung from their own mast.


You say this like it's a bad thing ?



You must've read it wrong, then.

No, I think Blackwater is just about frakking useless, and would prove themselves so almost instantaneously if they attempted to go to sea. I've no love for them at all.



Hello,

While I find Blackwater/Xe to be *morally* useless, I think you might discover to your dismay that they are much better trained and equipped than your average pirate.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 7:13 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd put my money on the pirates. Blackwater hasn't exactly done a stellar job, even when facing an enemy armed with such high-tech weapons as rocks and homemade pipe bombs. Put 'em up against a foe that was born and raised on the sea, and you'll have lots of nice pictures of "American contractors" stripped naked, burned, and hung from their own mast.


You say this like it's a bad thing ?



You must've read it wrong, then.

No, I think Blackwater is just about frakking useless, and would prove themselves so almost instantaneously if they attempted to go to sea. I've no love for them at all.



Hello,

While I find Blackwater/Xe to be *morally* useless, I think you might discover to your dismay that they are much better trained and equipped than your average pirate.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Yes but that is the beauty of the idea

in typical American fashion we solve both problems

send Blackwater over there in force,

then we start shipping heavy weapons and advisors to the pirates...


Perhaps we could even somehow tax the shipping traffic in the area to pay for it all




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 7:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
While I find Blackwater/Xe to be *morally* useless, I think you might discover to your dismay that they are much better trained and equipped than your average pirate.


Yeah, and ?
Same could be said of your average vietcong, iraqi insurgent or afghan hill fighter, too.
Ain't worked out so well in them cases neither, has it now ?

Oh, and Gino ?
I shouldn't laugh, I really shouldn't, but you know I am, it's painfully true, it is.

-Frem


It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello,

While I find Blackwater/Xe to be *morally* useless, I think you might discover to your dismay that they are much better trained and equipped than your average pirate.

--Anthony



I think you might discover to your dismay that the same could be said of American soldiers in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. How'd those work out for us?

ETA: Dang it, Frem beat me to it! Guess I'll have to learn to read all the replies before jumping back in!

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The U.S. dead amounted to ~60k in Vietnam. The Vietnamese claim combat-soldier losses of 1.1 million.

Regardless of who 'won' the war, I know whose army I'd have preferred to be drafted into.

If a morally corrupt but high-capability mercenary group like Blackwater is dispatched into Somalia, I will feel a great swell of pity for the pirates.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 2:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:


Hello,

The U.S. dead amounted to ~60k in Vietnam. The Vietnamese claim combat-soldier losses of 1.1 million.

Regardless of who 'won' the war, I know whose army I'd have preferred to be drafted into.

If a morally corrupt but high-capability mercenary group like Blackwater is dispatched into Somalia, I will feel a great swell of pity for the pirates.

--Anthony



Tony, sorry, I just gotta shoot down a dumb post for being a dumb post, nothing personal, happens to everyone:

The kill ratio myth of Vietnam is a distortion of reality to support an american policy of blatant racism towards east asia. A lil touch of reality:

We walked into a civil war, N. Vietnam, communist, backed by China, vs. S. Vietnam, capitalist, backed by France, and then US.

But nothing changed the fact that it was a civil war.

Accurate figures are hard to come by, because the communist govt. of Vietnam is unwilling to review casualties in a fully accurate manner, but the best estimates tend around 1.7 million in losses for S. vietnam, and 1.5 million for N. Vietnam. About 1/2 of all deaths were civilian, and roughly equal numbers of vietnamese soldiers fought on both sides. The South Vietnamese always outnumbered their American support, even at the height of US involvement, but remember that height didn't last for very long. (1965-1969) After '69, American soldiers took more of a defensive conflict avoidance strategy, like the one we've been taking in Iraq. Still, a lot of people got killed.

The number of US troops on the front lines was reasonably low for most of the conflict, and never more than a fraction of the the overall fighting force. Considering that we were full throttle for 4 years of a 20 year war, and in a smaller role during 4 more, and that US soldiers were on constant rotation, the US fighting force never really topped a million men, and front line combatants seriously less than that. By comparison, the US was aiding an South Vietnamese army of 6 million. At the height of US involvement, we comprised no more than a third of the defense. A total number of combat troops for the north vietnamese I couldn't locate, estimates vary widely, but it looks like around 5-7 million.

In short: It was a civil war. More vietnamese died because both sides were vietnamese, and given that in an average year of the war, there were 500,000 americans, vs. 12 million vietnamese. Due to rotations, 8 million americans served in theory, but many never saw the war, or even vietnam, and very few were there more than a year. The major fighting took place in the last 16 years of the conflict, the combat troop casualty rate for a Vietnamese soldier was roughly the same as that of a US soldier, year for year.

Sorry, skeetshooter, had to shoot this one down. There was no kill ratio in favor of the US in Vietnam.


Also, note for future conflicts: 500,000 troops the generals kept asking for in Iraq, and now Afghanistan, that's how many it takes to really lose a war when you have help. We have precious little help in Afghanistan.

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

Hello,

You seem to believe these figures are inaccurate. It's acceptable for you to believe this, but I don't think the post is 'dumb' by any stretch of the imagination, 'skeet shooter.' I think I made a rather logical and intelligent observation based on my source.

And unless you are claiming that U.S. forces did not actually kill more than 60k enemy troops, then you are conceding that yes, the better armed, better trained force tends to kill more of the worse armed, worse trained adversary.

Afghanistan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93presen
t%29


And Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war

And the Battle of Mogadishu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29


It's pretty plain to see that the pattern holds true for our more recent conflicts. The better armed, equipped, and trained force kills far more of the adversary.

It's not really shocking or unexpected. There's more to winning a war than carpeting a foreign nation with corpses- but enduring double, quadruple, or more losses in victory than your enemies do in defeat is not exactly a happy thing.

And so my 'dumb' post stands. If Blackwater were to descend on the Somalis, I would feel a great swell of pity for the pirates.

Blackwater has the equipment and training of the military and no moral compass. It would be a slaughter.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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