Is it possible that the Republicans actually WANT some kind of violent revolution? Are they that stupid, to think they could benefit from it? I think it..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is Political Violence Part Of The Plan?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 08:35
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1189
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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Is it possible that the Republicans actually WANT some kind of violent revolution? Are they that stupid, to think they could benefit from it? I think it was stupid of Pelosi to speak up, knowing the right would now have an excuse to blame HER if there's violence, but it still boggles my mind how they are doing everything they can to increase the rhetoric of hate.

Quote:

Nancy Pelosi made some very sobering comments yesterday about the potential for political violence inside America….

"I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because I saw this myself in the late '70s in San Francisco, this king of rhetoric. … It created a climate in which violence took place. … I wish we would all curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements and understand that some of the ears that it is falling on are not as balanced as the person making the statements may assume."

Naturally, Republicans disagree with Pelosi. Pete Sessions (R-TX), head of the National Republican Congressional Committee responded to Pelosi's comments…..

“Speaker Pelosi is right that the American people are upset, but it is her own words that continue to fuel voter frustration in America," Sessions said in a statement sent to POLITICO. "No longer content with criticizing concerned citizens for being ‘un-American,’ the Speaker is now likening genuine opposition to assassination. Such insulting rhetoric not only undermines the credibility of her office, but it underscores the desperate attempt by her party to divert attention away from a failing agenda."

Abortion doctor George Tiller experienced firsthand the "genuine opposition" Sessions refers to here. Tiller was assassinated while attending church. Tiller was murdered by a man genuinely opposed to legal abortion rights for women. Scott Roeder, the assassin, I'm sure, was frustrated that America elected a president who favors keeping abortion legal in the U.S. The assassination came after 4 months of heated and wildly irrational rhetoric from extreme conservatives over all things Obama.

Yet the Republican response from Sessions to Pelosi's honest and emotional assessment of today's thuggishly heated rhetoric aimed at all things Obama….is to blame the Speaker, herself, and the words she speaks as the reason for conservatives' "frustration." Sessions is saying that if there is any heated rhetoric, Nancy Pelosi fueled that rhetoric by the words she spoke.

What words? Pelosi and Steny Hoyer (D-MD) co-wrote these words in USA Today in August….

"These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades,"

Pete Sessions, as most Republicans are prone to do now, describes Pelosi's, "Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American"…as…"No longer content with criticizing concerned citizens for being ‘un-American,’ the Speaker is now likening genuine opposition to assassination."

Numerous examples of planned conservative disruptions at town halls, with all the ugliness, intimidation and hatred displayed there, are translated by Republicans, like Sessions, as only "concerned citizens", who, if angry and frustrated, were made that way by what Nancy Pelosi says.

Those "concerned citizens" very purpose in attending primarily Democratic town hall meetings was to "drown out opposing views." Many buster-uppers followed a shared playbook explaining how to bust-up a town hall. Many buster-uppers who traveled to Democratic representative's town halls came from other voting districts. The plan from the beginning was to raise hell and disrupt. To Sessions, that's what "concerned citizens" do. Everyone has seen the town hall videos…..there's no question that drowning others out, intimidating and disrupting was the "concerned citizens" goal from the beginning.

For Pelosi to recall the 1970's when domestic political violence seemed like a weekly occurrence….and for Pelosi to warn that 70's violence was also accompanied with heated and hateful rhetoric…simply a fact,…. is to Republicans like Sessions "likening genuine opposition to assassination."

Nancy Pelosi did not accuse the people using the heated rhetoric of being assassins themselves. She said…."some of the ears that it is falling on are not as balanced as the person making the statements may assume." Like Scott Roeder, or the guy who killed three cops in Pittsburgh because he'd heard that Obama was coming for his guns, or the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum.

Perhaps….THAT'S the goal of people like Pete Sessions. Perhaps, Republicans want unhinged, hateful, lying rhetoric-spewing buster-uppers to be heard by citizens who are "not as balanced" as those spewing the rhetoric or throwing a tantrum.

Perhaps Republicans, conservatives….while never stating so explicitly….want national breakouts of political violence by dangerous lone-wolf, conservative nutcases.

All this time I've been thinking that the nonsense I've been hearing and seeing from conservatives since Obama's inauguration were all just attempts to "grab" those headlines, those teevee video bytes.

Is it possible that what's really going on with all the hateful language, all the displays of firearms, all the Obama-is-Hitler posters, all the thuggish intimidation,…..is a dog-whistle call to the "not as balanced" in the hope that random political acts of violence,….if nothing else works,….will bring down Obama's presidency?



http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/blog_mass_destruction/2009/09/18/is-politi
cal-violence-part-of-the-plan/ID=7977/comment-page-1
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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:11 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


You make the mistake of blaming the "right".

YOU are the one who speaks of the pendulum swinging left and right. YOU taught me that this is the truth. That politics rely on the pendulum ONLY swinging from from right to left...

I, for myself, think its time for the pendulum to come off its track.

Its time for their to be no more pendulum, right and left.

Its time for something new... and old.

Its time we realize the truth that our forefathers taught us. We MUST go back to the idea of small government. We must fall back to the idea that a person, is real and whole and able to choose his/her own destiny WITHOUT some overreaching CONTROL.

If it takes an explosion to blow the pendulum off its tracks, count me in.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:14 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


And yes. Without remorse, without fear of observance, I DO call for revolution against tyranny.


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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


And, while I respect you Niki... and I understand how you feel.

Sometimes, not often, but sometimes, you have to be willing to fight.

Because one day, all of us here on this board will be dead. And we must leave to those that come after, a world filled with true hope and promise. Free from tyranny, both outside and in.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I got a better idea - encourage the damned extremists to slaughter each other.

Good riddance to em, and the rest of the world learns a lesson about where that leads, consider well that the horrific examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are FOREVER engraved into the public consciousness, despite evil pricks chomping at the bit to visit that upon those that disagree with em.

Were it not for the innocents who'd suffer in the collateral effects, I'd be damned HAPPY to see anyone willing to violently force their beliefs on others dead.

Because of that, I'll not encourage it - but also because of that, I will not lift one finger, dispense one iota, of effort to prevent it neither.

It's where I've drawn MY line.

-F

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Revolution is not the answer. It's never really worked the way you want; someone always fills the void, and usually it only makes matters worse.

When asked what you would do to change things to the way you thought they should be, you said reasonable things, I remember that. But apparently under that reasonable facade you DO advocate violent overthrow of the government.

I tell you right now: It won't improve things. However bad Democracy might be/get, it's still better than anything with which a revolution would replace it. And the cost to the country would be enormous, not only in lives but in chaos and money.

Yes, the pendulum swings...but I repeat; never in my lifetime have I seen either side advocate the kind of unrepentant hatred, on such a huge scale, was what I see now. It's reprehensible, and I fear they will regret it down the line.

Wulf, you may think it's wrong and not want it, but the fact is that throughout human history, the pendulum DOES swing...often once it's swung too far to one side (as Bush represented), it swings too far to the other (Obama), and then settles more in the middle. But there will always be demigogs who push it too far in one direction, and the result is like a rubber band pulled to tight; for every action there is an equal reaction.

You have some good ideas; but how we go about getting there...your ideas are totally wrong. IMO.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:33 AM

HKCAVALIER


Well Niki,

The righties are gonna blame the left for all their violence whether Pelosi speaks her mind or not. Don't make the mistake of justifying silence--that's their comfort zone, not yours.

I have a different theory. Every time a Jimmy Carter says it all boils down to racism, or a Pelosi says we need to be mindful that violent rhetoric can lead to violent action--any time we stop and name the abuse, even if we're inaccurate, it engages the rational mind and decreases the momentum of the violent escalation, however briefly.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:34 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I got a better idea - encourage the damned extremists to slaughter each other."

I would remind you Frem, "Extremism in the Defense of Liberty Is No Vice".

And also, you should know this, from what you've posted.

Death comes to us all. We may not chose how, but we can choose WHY.

And, we can also chose WHAT we leave to those after.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


How do you accomplish that, Frem? If the vast majority of extemists at present are on the right, how do you get them to attack one another, rather than the government they're being encouraged to hate and want to destroy? If the majority of the extremists on the right, how do you get them to attack the extremists on the left, without creating chaos?

No, that's not the answer, either, IMO. Violence is NOT an answer to much of anything, except tyrannical governments where there is no option. And we're FAR from that now, if we ever get there. I don't think Democracy is built for tyranny--the closest we've come in a long time WAS Bush, and that attempt self-destructed pretty well. It just left so much hate, fear and racism behind, which the right has fanned to swell, that we have to ride out the other end of the pendulum. I'm just afraid of what will happen to us before it's over.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


HK, well said:
Quote:

The righties are gonna blame the left for all their violence whether Pelosi speaks her mind or not. Don't make the mistake of justifying silence--that's their comfort zone, not yours.

I have a different theory. Every time a Jimmy Carter says it all boils down to racism, or a Pelosi says we need to be mindful that violent rhetoric can lead to violent action--any time we stop and name the abuse, even if we're inaccurate, it engages the rational mind and decreases the momentum of the violent escalation, however briefly.

I recognize the former, all too well lately--tho' it hasn't QUITE gotten to the point where it still doesn't shock me--and I firmly believe in the latter. I just hope enough rational minds are out there who are willing to speak up, 'cuz I don't think the IRrational minds even hear it.

I've heard a few on the right "name the abuse", and I know far more oppose it quietly...but how do you get THEM to speak up, because it's those voices to which the extremists will listen, and no others, I fear.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"You have some good ideas; but how we go about getting there...your ideas are totally wrong. IMO."

My ideas of how to get there, not withstanding, I appreciate your advice.

However, let me ask you then... what is your answer to how we get there?

Without change, true change, we will never reach it. And even should we reach Nirvana, we must defend against losing it.

So, by my blood, by the sanctity of my own life I say this.. If the cause comes to me, to fight for liberty, for freedom for all people, for hope and safety... I will gladly lay my life on the line.

Because I know that one day, win or lose, I will die. But, I'll be damned if I leave this world changed, NOT for the better.

ETA: Even against my own government.




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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:57 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg



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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

However, let me ask you then... what is your answer to how we get there?
You said it yourself in the thread about YOUR ideas of change when I asked you that question:
Quote:

Voting? I do. Right to the papers, and to my reps, do that to. Organize with others, trying to.
So are you saying now that you DON'T believe in those things? Confusing...
Quote:

Without change, true change, we will never reach it. And even should we reach Nirvana, we must defend against losing it.
That's where you fail in your view of reality. "We will never reach it". There IS no perfect society/government, and never will be. Too much difference in humans--and their philosophies. We buddhists never expect to reach Nirvana--far as we know, only Buddha himself did. It's the GETTING THERE, the process, which is important.

Same for Democracy...it's the evolution, the growth, the process with which we need to be involved. Perfect government will never exist--it never has for any length of time. But violence isn't the answer to anything, certainly not democracy!
Quote:

to fight for liberty, for freedom for all people, for hope and safety... I will gladly lay my life on the line.
That's, again, the crux of it for you, I believe. You imagine some perfect system, some perfect government, and see doing something DRAMATIC to accomplish it. The videos you choose to put up point to it over and over again...Hollywoodized stories of liberty, freedom, etc., etc., which are dramatized but don't show the realities.

I think you've got an impossible dream of how things should be, and really believe that, with violence or otherwise, we can attain it. You speak in absolutes--even when they are contradictory--and dramatic phrases. I wonder if you've ever looked at the real world, how it works, and are even aware that what "heroes" there are, are just human beings making a small dent in what's wrong...perhaps emboldening others to follow their path, but not changing things into something perfect, nothing ever is. I prefer to live in the real world, where only so much is attainable.

I get that these videos are important to you, but they're not REAL...and I wish you wouldn't post them in multiple threads; they don't SAY anything.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Only so much is attainable....

We are given a short time on this earth, before we must pass it on to those that come after.

I refuse to believe that only a little dent is attainable.

Yes. I speak in absolutes. There is no retreat from the ideas of liberty and hope.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Yes. I speak in absolutes. There is no retreat from the ideas of liberty and hope.
Okay, I'm finally getting it I think. You ARE stuck in some kind of world where absolutes rule, and you somehow think the absolutes you believe in can be made to happen, by some 'hero' or something, and that making small changes isn't acceptable, only big, dramatic ones.

That explains virtually everything you post; I don't know why I didn't catch on before. The videos should have told me long ago, but I wasn't paying attention--I rarely actually click on videos, I want to hear what people have to say for themselves. But it was obvious yours were all from movies about heroes and righting the wrongs of the world, etc.

That's where you live, isn't it? In a world where absolutes rule, even if contradictory--because much of what you write IS contradictory from one day to the next or one thread to the next. It's a shame; the real world is wonderful in its own way, and our country, our government are pretty wonderful in their own, flawed ways, too.

Revolution, violence in the pursuit of perfection is wrong; in pursuit of "better", we in America don't need revolution; it got us here, from here on out is up to US. WITHIN the framework we were given, not tearing it down to rebuild it.

There ARE no "absolutes", love, only reality. "Freedom" isn't an absolute; "liberty" isn't an absolute, "government" isn't an absolute. I hope someday you get it, maybe that will lessen your anger.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:44 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Except the framework has become a cage.

ETA: Btw. You know there are now bailouts planned for the press, right?

Freedom of speech, is now the voice of the government.

ANd as youve pointed out... the pendulum swings both ways.... although, if you are for this, then I guess you wouldn't mind if Bush was the one controlling the speech. Bush, Cheaney, Palin... Huckabee.... or wait, would you?




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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


LIFE is a cage; it's up to US how we live it. The EARTH is a cage; we have to find ways to get along without destroying it. Whatever small world we individually live in is a cage; we have to find ways to survive within it. The universe is a cage; our little green ball is so far the only thing that keeps us going.

There is no ideal "freedom". Everything is a cage. It's how we live within our cages that determines the quality of our lives. Humans can't be trusted to act morally, we're not built that way, so you can't leave it open to each person taking responsibility; the only responsibility possible is for each of us to take our own, not force our beliefs on others.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


No. Im tired of cages. Im tired of metaphorical cages or real ones. And Im tired of people lining up for either.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Humans can't be trusted to act morally, we're not built that way, so you can't leave it open to each person taking responsibility; the only responsibility possible is for each of us to take our own, not force our beliefs on others."

and with that... I will leave you with this.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

-- Thomas Jefferson

Even if (for me), it cost half the lives of the people on this planet.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 11:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You are very confused.
Quote:

if you are for this, then I guess you wouldn't mind if Bush was the one controlling the speech. Bush, Cheaney, Palin... Huckabee.... or wait, would you?

I stated the way things ARE, not that I'm in favor of it. It's history, from the beginning of time. That doesn't mean I wish it was that way, only that I recognize it.

I think you're either unable or unwilling to hear what I'm saying; I've blown too much of a day and my computer is hanging up, gotta reboot and do something with the rest of the day. See 'ya...

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Monday, September 21, 2009 1:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The Righties don't actually want a "revolution", Niki - they just want Obama dead. Oh, they'll claim they don't, but their actions and words give the real truth behind them.

And they really don't understand how that's seen as a "bad thing".

That's the saddest part of it, really.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 21, 2009 1:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:







Oh, GOODIE! Wulfie's found a new video by his favorite coward, and he just can't wait to post it every-fucking-where!

He hides his face because, like you, Wulfie, he's a coward. He's all talk and no action, the exact opposite of what you SAY in your tag-line.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 21, 2009 1:21 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No. Im tired of cages. Im tired of metaphorical cages or real ones. And Im tired of people lining up for either.






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Monday, September 21, 2009 1:40 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:




You really don't buy what this doof is selling do you? He's got nothing but cliches and a gym membership - come on dude. Use your BRAIN.

Do you have any health insurance btw?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Monday, September 21, 2009 1:41 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No. Im tired of cages. Im tired of metaphorical cages or real ones. And Im tired of people lining up for either.



How do you feel about marriage?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Monday, September 21, 2009 3:17 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Obama, abortionists, cops, prosecutors and media mafia mute on abortion protester’s shooting
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53931

Pelosi: We'll ‘Squeeze’ Medicare to Pay for Health Care Bill
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53845

Obama Won’t Give Federal Insurance Benefits to Illegal Aliens, He’ll Make Them Legal First
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53814

Obama Health Experts Call Obesity A Threat to National Security
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53804

Obama and Planned Parenthood Agree: Health Care Bill Funds Abortion
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53857


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Monday, September 21, 2009 3:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
How do you accomplish that, Frem? If the vast majority of extemists at present are on the right, how do you get them to attack one another, rather than the government they're being encouraged to hate and want to destroy?


Oh man, that, M'lady, is almost too EASY, just take any one of the various schisms and amp it, watch the results.

Wulfies issue is that he's got a lot of passion, a lot of feelings, but little in the way of plans or strategy - might be a good idea to help him along on that front rather than kickin him in the shin for it over it, other than of course pointing out the consequences of rash action without thinkin it through.

The dude is struggling against his own upbringing, experiences and prejudices, but one must credit him for the struggle, I think, even if he doesn't always do a good job of it, cause I do believe his heart to be in the right place even if his head seems to be up his rear on occasion.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 21, 2009 4:52 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem

I agree with the idea, of non-intervention, but not the course: the people in these movements are pawns. All pawns are always best aligned together against the govt. regardless of the agenda or whose in power. It is the only check on govt'l power. Congress and the Supreme court are a joke. There are no checks and balances, only the fear of revolution. If we set people to kill each other, it's the followers, not the leaders, who die. If we set them against each other to lock in struggle, than govt. runs away with unchecked power, which is always bad.

Obama should rule a govt. which feels the will of the people, even if it's a wacko will, not the pressures and pulls of the special interests.

I kept hoping that the right and left anti-bush could drop their partisan bickering over the handfed issues like abortion and join forces on issues they could agree on and just oppose Bush.

All resistance is good, it makes Obama think about what the people want. Yeah, sure, most of these people are pawns of some lobby, but without them, the interests of the insurance companies and drug companies and the MIC and FED are all that will decide the agenda...

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Monday, September 21, 2009 6:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


DT, what makes you think I don't do it to the powers that be as well as their followers ?

Simple logic that, yes ?

Although depriving them of the troops to fulfill their agendas has ALWAYS been my primary strategy, of course.

-F

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Monday, September 21, 2009 7:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No. Im tired of cages.
I invite you to seek the ultimate freedom. Freedom from having to breathe, to drink, to eat.

Fly and be free...

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


All resistance is good, it makes Obama think about what the people want. Yeah, sure, most of these people are pawns of some lobby, but without them, the interests of the insurance companies and drug companies and the MIC and FED are all that will decide the agenda...



The problem with that argument is that you're saying that by being pawns of the special interests, we're stopping the special interests from setting the agenda. And you seem to be arguing IN FAVOR of being pawns, since all opposition is good opposition.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it seems like you're trying to put those who say "I'm against Obama's policies on torture and warrantless searches" in the same camp as those who say "I'm against Obama's healthcare ideas", until all you get is a group who seems to be saying one thing: "I'm against Obama!"

That's not a recipe for a push back - that's a recipe for stagnation. If all anyone sees is "I'm against Obama!", then he becomes afraid to move on ANY issue, and becomes utterly ineffectual. Is that what you really want, a President that does nothing at all, who moves us neither forward or backward?

Truth be told, I *AM* against Obama's healthcare plans - but only because they don't go far enough! That's a far, far cry from being out there hollering "Socialist! Communist! Nazi!" with the booboise.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:53 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And yes. Without remorse, without fear of observance, I DO call for revolution against tyranny.


I note for the record that you are both alive and not in jail.

If this be tyranny...its really not working very well.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:08 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Voting? I do. Right to the papers, and to my reps, do that to. Organize with others, trying to.

So are you saying now that you DON'T believe in those things? Confusing...



On the voting and the writing, of course not. All elections, votes, and decisions in politics and government are manipulated to the point of practically being predetermined.

You can vote, you can write in, but you're Sisyphus rolling a stone up a hill against people with far more resources, far more greed, and far scarier ideas. The only reason to do either is to leave no option unexplored.

Organization is also something I'm trying to do. I've been talking to Dream, getting some good advice on that front. My main problem is I don't have any contacts I can use in the community I want to help to organize them, no idea how to meet any contacts, and no more time than three days.

But I have some ideas for unilateral action... It seems the best real life cases of an average person stalling, fighting, causing change seem to be the most effective and easy to pull off.

For example, locally, we had an auction for oil leases about a year ago that the Bush administration pushed through in it's last hours. One brave citizen stood up, went to the auction, and "outbid" the oil companies on every property. Didn't have the money, just wanted to hold the process up. Guess what? Aside from him being jailed, it worked spectacularly, and now either the lands are being considered for removal for leasing, or Obama has already forbid their leasing (I forget which it is). The only price the guy has to pay is a nice close brush up with the criminal justice system, but the prosecutor can barely prosecute him because the guy's a goddamn hero now, in highly non-environmentally sensitive Utah, just 'cause he was willing to stand up for his beliefs.

No, you don't need violence. But the amount of change you'll affect is directly related to how willing you are to play by the established rules.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:16 AM

BYTEMITE


Sig, don't suggest suicide to people on the internet. Some of them go through with it.

And Wulf ain't the kind to take a bottle of pills, either. He'll find a fight he believes in, bring a gun, and go down shooting.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:42 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Well damn, Sig.... here I was thinking that we were forging a new open discourse.

Guess I was wrong.


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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hey Kwick,

How do you know that it ISN't me in those videos...

lol


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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Lord, Wulf, I hope that ISN'T you; those are so pathetic, I don't even listen past the first couple of sentences anymore. I'd really hate to think you're that pitiable! Tho' I admit what he spouts sounds an awful lot like what you do, I'd just like to think it's 'cuz you agree with it (which is bad enough), not that you're actually putting sad stuff like that out there! Not that it matters I guess.

Frem:
Quote:

Wulfies issue is that he's got a lot of passion, a lot of feelings, but little in the way of plans or strategy - might be a good idea to help him along on that front rather than kickin him in the shin for it over it, other than of course pointing out the consequences of rash action without thinkin it through.
I get that, but I'm finding his absolutes and his theatricality difficult, and I'm not sure I want to keep dealing with absolutist attitudes.

I get that he's struggling--or seems to be, at least. But I'm not wholly convinced he IS struggling, given it always comes back to the same thing. I don't know anything about his background, and I'm not sure I need to in order to discourse with anyone here. I'm not responsible for anyone's history, and I'm not into "magical thinking".

Dream:
Quote:

All pawns are always best aligned together against the govt. regardless of the agenda or whose in power
I don't go along with your concept at all. I don't believe in BEING a pawn, to begin with, or encouraging anyone else to. But given there ARE pawns, I think using them is the worst thing one can do in a democracy. Giving people the facts, encouraging them to think for themselves, to see the GREYS, is what I believe in. I think creating pawns, or driving them, only makes for an ignorant society.

Quote:

All resistance is good, it makes Obama think about what the people want. Yeah, sure, most of these people are pawns of some lobby, but without them, the interests of the insurance companies and drug companies and the MIC and FED are all that will decide the agenda...
Nor do I agree with that. If these people are pawns of a lobby, it IS the insurance companies and pharma and so forth who are in chrage of the agenda--and they're working on it right now, successfully. Mike's got my reply:
Quote:

The problem with that argument is that you're saying that by being pawns of the special interests, we're stopping the special interests from setting the agenda.


It's a two-pronged attack that's working awfully well, sadly. From the outside, they whip up the base of pawns to protest, make them look like a larger group than they are so unthinking people/politicians will THINK they represent the "will of the people", which makes them think twice about standing for what they know is right. From the INSIDE, they've got Republicans saying they want to be nonpartisan, and then working on the Democrat's desire for bipartisanship to weaken the bills, gut them essentially...then they won't vote against them anyway, so either way, they win.

Mike:
Quote:

That's not a recipe for a push back - that's a recipe for stagnation. If all anyone sees is "I'm against Obama!", then he becomes afraid to move on ANY issue, and becomes utterly ineffectual. Is that what you really want, a President that does nothing at all, who moves us neither forward or backward?

Truth be told, I *AM* against Obama's healthcare plans - but only because they don't go far enough! That's a far, far cry from being out there hollering "Socialist! Communist! Nazi!" with the booboise.

Me,too. I think you said it perfectly, and that's what I was afraid would happen to Obama. His desire for bipartisanship has become the worst stumbling block in this healthcare thing, as I see it; he's so determined to work "with" a partisan group who is determined to do nothing but work "against", no matter what, that he's let it be stalled to the point where it may be impossible.

Byte: YES! You've pegged it; using every tool at our disposal (short of violence or encouraging violence), and those who can and will, standing up and paying the price for resisting. But the kind of resistance you mentioned, non-violent resistance, DOES work, often. Demonstrations help in that they show the will of the people--hence the fake numbers of the 9/12 thing; the more people willing to show up and protest, the more their representatives will recognize it...not that it's the only thing, or even the major thing, but threats of violence and violence itself does no good in the long run.

Voting is the best; I just heard that--I forget who--was staunchly fighting healthcare reform, when it was shown that the vast majority of those he represents are for it; if it's killed, then fight like hell to get someone to oppose him and get him out. It takes time--and patience!--but it beats the heck out of violence.

I hear almost everyone here grousing about our government and bitching about what's wrong with it. But there are a lot of things RIGHT with it, and I wish we could be more aware of those, too. We HAVE the power to cause change, which many societies don't, and all in all, for all its flaws, I think it works better than it doesn't work for most of us. For me, it's a matter of taking personal responsibility to stay aware, have what input I can, and guard the good parts.

For me, part of the problem is that Americans are spoiled, we want "more", we want "better", and it's good that we keep striving for the better part, but I'm not sure the "more" part is good. We've got an awful lot--imperfect as it may be--and I'd rather see Americans educate themselves, learn to work within the system to improve it, rather than bitch and moan about what they HAVEN'T got. JMHO.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Well Niki,

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


WULF, BYTE-
Quote:

Sig, don't suggest suicide to people on the internet. Some of them go through with it.-BYTE
Well damn, Sig.... here I was thinking that we were forging a new open discourse-WULF

That was for one thread only.

But, yeah- my bad. I was very tired when I wrote than. Filters were not on "high". And actually, I DO intend to resume posting snark-free. So- sorry about that. I'll try not to let that happen again.

Still... I repeat what I said long ago in another thread far away... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS COMPLETE FREEDOM. We will always be constrained by something, if only our need to breathe, sleep, drink, and eat. And if someone is standing between you and your needs (a torturer, a boss) they have you by the balls. There many more forms of power and many more forms of coercion than the gun.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

All resistance is good, it makes Obama think about what the people want.
I want public health insurance. I guess my opinion doesn't count?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:06 AM

BYTEMITE


No problem, Sig, I know how offhand remarks can go, and heck, some snark is good and funny, but I felt the need to call you on that one because suicide is such a serious problem.

Quote:

Still... I repeat what I said long ago in another thread far away... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS COMPLETE FREEDOM. We will always be constrained by something, if only our need to breathe, sleep, drink, and eat. And if someone is standing between you and your needs (a torturer, a boss) they have you by the balls. There many more forms of power and many more forms of coercion than the gun.


I've never really argued for anything called "complete freedom." That's too arbitrary. I've only ever argued for a system that I think will best serve the needs of people, like getting them food, shelter, water, and air, while at the same time what I believe will pose the least amount of constraints on getting those needs, obtaining knowledge, becoming inspired, feeling fulfilled, and creating/producing.

I think that you're right in that in our current system, there are people who are intentionally standing in the way of people meeting their basic needs. And that is because they have the power to do so, which is wrong, because it is a form of abuse.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I want public health insurance. I guess my opinion doesn't count?
Boy, me too. I don't think it's about what Obama thinks the people want, I think it's about all the resistance to the status quo that he's up against...if it were up to him, it'd be Single Payer, I'd bet on it.

Dunno if at this point ANYTHING will get done...I just hope it doesn't turn out to be the Insurance Company Profit Protection and Reinforcement Act!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:37 AM

DREAMTROVE


I have public health insurance, and under the new plan, I could lose it. The reason: I qualify under state rules, but not federal ones, because NYS is more generous (liberal;) ) with it's healthcare.

So, I say, proceed with caution. I'd be a lot happier if this were a program to provide state aid to states that *do* provide universal healthcare plans rather than a "national healthcare plan."

In my experience, having the federal govt. run something doesn't work out too well. The one exception which comes to mind is the Post Office, but then, it's actually independently run and funded.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:39 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


... and dont forget that FeEx trumps the Post Office most times...

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
... and dont forget that FeEx trumps the Post Office most times...



When's the last time that you sent a letter via FedEx for $0.44? Seriously.

Last letter I sent via UPS was $14.70.

I guess your point is that private, for-profit industry CAN compete with the government, but it'll cost you roughly 33 times more money to do so. So if you're into paying 33 times more for your private healthcare, go for it. I'll take the cheaper government option, thanks. :bigggin:

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And yes. Without remorse, without fear of observance, I DO call for revolution against tyranny.


I note for the record that you are both alive and not in jail.

If this be tyranny...its really not working very well.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.



In an occurrence more rare than a total eclipse of the sun, Hero and I actually agree on something!

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Miss Bytemite
Quote:

No, you don't need violence. But the amount of change you'll affect is directly related to how willing you are to play by the established rules.

Again, why would I let the bad guys set the rules we play by, neh ?

So MANY folks fall for the shell game, and as such, lose the engagement before it even starts.

Niki
Quote:

I get that he's struggling--or seems to be, at least. But I'm not wholly convinced he IS struggling, given it always comes back to the same thing. I don't know anything about his background, and I'm not sure I need to in order to discourse with anyone here. I'm not responsible for anyone's history, and I'm not into "magical thinking".

Patience, M'lady, patience - remember you're running up against two DECADES worth of not only believing certain things, but of intentional manipulation and indoctrination TO believe them, and you don't trump that with a two minute sound bite - goin back to that is kinda the same reflex as a stunned boxer seeking a neutral corner, and takes time to overcome.

Of course, while I doubt he'd admit it to folks who seem to enjoy kicking him so much, there's a time or two where I damn well know he's cussed his own knee jerk reflexes hisself, usually after posting something abysmally stupid and then being unable to admit it or retract it cause it would look "weak"...
But I notice he's managed to bite his tongue and not defend it neither, which constitutes progress.

Think for a bit about what it takes to stick your neck out here in the deep end of the water when to do so is going to ensure such a raking over the coals, and ponder on top of it how folk who like to TALK equality (not namin names... yet) seem to get their rocks off kicking "the other guy" when they're down, despite years of howling about it being them on the end of the boot.
Two sides of the same coin, and damned if I'd want either one in power.

I've seen all too damn much of that in the civil rights, womens rights, movements - folks who talk about equality, but what they REALLY want is revenge, and they never quite seem to realize that in the doing they've become the very type of oppressor they're supposedly railing against - I can see tendrils of it already shading this administration, and I hate those chains, eventually they'll strangle us all if not broken.

If I think someone isn't going to benefit from trying to uplift and educate em, I won't even try, I'll give em the Rappy treatment, which you weren't here for, but lets just say it ain't pretty.

As for voting, between Gerrymandering and other chicanery, it's a sham, a shell game, the trick of it isn't gettin folk to believe the pea is under a certain shell, the trick is gettin em to buy that it's under ANY of em - and it ain't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

Breaking that would be helpful, as would an IRV system rather than the exclusive either/or/none setup we have in place to ensure your vote DOESN'T count.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRV

There's also what *happens* when a fluke vote goes against the will of the powers that be, folks living in small towns will assure you, they'll just do it anyway (KY, TN are notorious for this) and to hell with what you think of it - Elmer FUD got shitcanned up here for continuing a canadian trash policy that the vote came out 94% against.

And not just small towns either, what happened to Vallandigham and Berger is quite demonstrative of what would happen if We The People didn't play along with the scam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallandigham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

Of course, that's not an incitement to act BEFORE that point, to do so reduces it to "rule of the gun" which is how the powers that be truly play, and if we wish to better the situation, climbing down into the gutters with em isn't the way to go about it - best leave that to Greymantles like me.

But once they pull the mask off and refuse in such a major way as they did with Berger - I'd say the people had cause to enforce their will in the manner they think to be most necessary and efficient.

But again, TRY REASON FIRST.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Hey Kwick,

How do you know that it ISN't me in those videos...

lol




I don't. But it doesn't matter, because neither you nor the coward in the video are willing to actually DO anything. You're both nothing but bluster, just another pair of chAirborne Rangers who talk a big game, but then fail to live up to their own hype.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I don't. But it doesn't matter, because neither you nor the coward in the video are willing to actually DO anything. You're both nothing but bluster, just another pair of chAirborne Rangers who talk a big game, but then fail to live up to their own hype."

One of those times when Im going to bite my own tongue and just say...

"I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it"

ETA: Sometimes taking the high road actually feels good.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

and dont forget that FeEx trumps the Post Office most times...
Have you actually sent or received anything by FedEx????

First of all- as Kwicko pointed out- its waaay more expensive that United States Postal Service (USPS, not to be confused with UPS). Secondly, I swear to god they have elephants stomping on the packages as part of the shipping process. We used to get a medicine from Canada, TINY pill in blister-packs, in sturdy flat boxes. The pills would arrrive, more often than not, in crushed-flat boxes, with several of the pill totally crushed and several more popped out of their blister-packs. WTF???? Hell, man, I had a HARD time popping those pills outta the blister-packs, and I had to use two metal spoons to crush 'em! How FedEx managed to do that, through a box and a bubble-pack envelope is beyond me.

So when I mail I choose USPS, thank you.


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