REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fear, racism, and ignorant, paranoid style. Todays USA

POSTED BY: GINOBIFFARONI
UPDATED: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:33
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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 6:39 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/08/200982075754210254.html



FOCUS: OPINION
Fear, racism at town hall meetings
By Rob Reynolds, senior Washington correspondent

Barney Frank, a Democratic congressman, took part in a health care reform "town hall debate" during which protesters held up placards depicting Barack Obama as Hitler [AFP]

August is the steamiest of months and normally a somnolent time in the US.

Vacations, county fairs, trips to the beach, days by the lake, grilling hot dogs on a stick - these are the happy trifles that Americans have come to expect at summer's end.

But this year August has been the month of rage.

In made-for-television "town hall meetings" across the country, grey-haired white men and women in t-shirts stand and hurl abuse at their Congress members and senators, snarling and shouting - their eyes popping apoplectically and choking with anger.

Moustached Obama

People have waved signs depicting Barack Obama, the US president, as Adolf Hitler with a toothbrush moustache, or with a hammer and sickle on his forehead.

"Protesters assert the health plan is merely the thin edge of the wedge for a socialistic overhaul of American society"
Placards denounce Obama as a fascist or a communist, or, in a proud display of historical and political ignorance, both at once.

Lately, men have begun showing up outside Obama events carrying weapons - strutting around like Doc Holliday, an iconic figure from 19th century literature of the Wild West, with six-gun pistols in holsters or, as in Arizona this week, with an assault rifle slung over shoulders.

One person in New Hampshire, with a loaded gun strapped to his leg, held a sign saying: "It's time to water the tree of liberty" - a phrase taken from Thomas Jefferson, an 18th century American revolutionary and third US president, who wrote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

The clear implication was made even plainer by a man at a meeting in Hagerstown, Maryland who held up a piece of cardboard upon which he had scrawled: "Death to Obama, death to Michelle and her two stupid kids."

Outpouring of hatred

Congress members have been hearing voters' views on proposed health care reform [AFP]
Ostensibly, this outpouring of hatred is all about Obama's health care reform proposal, which would restrict predatory practises by insurance companies and make it easier for the 47 million uninsured Americans to get health care coverage.

The protesters assert the health plan is merely the thin edge of the wedge for a socialistic overhaul of American society, including "death panels" that will rule on whether individuals are worthy enough to keep alive.

These contemptible fantasies are avidly stoked and facilitated by Republican Party hacks and lawmakers, the big insurance companies and other moneyed interests who will fight dirty to prevent changing the lucrative for-profit health system that is bleeding the country white.

But the sheer manic intensity of the foam-flecked tirades bursting out in the town halls, so out of proportion to their proximate cause, bespeaks much deeper roots of rage.

These are some of the same people who howled "traitor!" and "kill him!" at Sarah Palin's rallies last year.

They are the ones convinced Obama is a Muslim "sleeper agent" who will destroy American values and hand the country over to Osama bin Laden.

The flip side of their rage is fear. They scream: "We want our country back!" Their country is one where white, Christian conservatives rule.

The idea of a black president and a liberal democratic majority in Congress, elected by a huge landslide margin last November, is simply impossible for them to contemplate without teeth-grinding, choleric eruptions of hatred.

Egged on by a fair number of Republican members of Congress and right-wing talk show bloviators, so-called "birthers" have seized on the idea that Obama is not actually an American - that he was secretly born in Kenya and shipped to the US as a baby.

Racism? "You betcha!"

"Racism simply compounds something that runs even deeper, this fear of the "other" is not a new phenomenon"

Therefore, they argue, Obama is ineligible to be president and the office must be handed over to the runner-up in last years election, Republican John McCain who was born - and this is not disputed by anyone - on a US military base in Panama.

There is, of course, no evidence whatsoever to back up this fantasy, but facts - like copies of Obama's Hawaii birth certificate, the birth announcement in a Honolulu newspaper, photos of Obama's mother heavily pregnant in Hawaii in 1961 and so forth - appear to be irrelevant. Their goal is to de-legitimise Obama's presidency.

Racism? Sure. Or as Palin would say: "You betcha!" That's part of it.

But racism simply compounds something that runs even deeper. This fear of the "other" is not a new phenomenon.

Centuries-old fears

It didn't start with Obama's rise to the White House.

In 1964, the great Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter unravelled what he called the "paranoid style in American politics".

Panics, conspiracy fears and militant campaigns against outsiders began almost as soon as the republic was founded, Hofstadter writes.

In the 1790s, ultra-conservative elements, particularly in New England, became obsessed with the supposed conspiracies of the Society of the Illuminati (a Bavarian Freemason group) to subvert established religions and overturn all the world's governments.

More anti-Mason scares followed in the 1820s and 30s.

In the middle of the 19th century, when hundreds of thousands of Irish and German Catholics began migrating to the US, anti-Catholic hysteria bloomed like a fetid rose.

Jesuits and other priests, and Protestants, were creeping around every corner of the US, determined to enslave the US and carry out a war of extermination against heretics on the orders of the Pope in Rome.

Xenophobia

Reputable men, like SFB Morse, the inventor of the telegraph, entertained baroque and bloody fantasies involving Papist plots to install a Hapsburg as Emperor of America.

Populist, "Free Silver" anti-Semitic demagogues of the late 19th and early 20th century posited a vast conspiracy by European Jewish bankers and Wall Street speculators to oppress freedom-loving rural Americans.

Obama aims to make it easier for the 47 million uninsured Americans to get treatment[AFP]
The movement's greatest orator, William Jennings Bryan, was the Democratic nominee for president on three separate occasions.

Bryan drove crowds wild with his thundering speeches, proclaiming, in typically paranoid style: "You shall not press down upon the brow of labour this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."

By the time of World War One, intense fears of a Bolshevik conspiracy gripped the country.

The federal government arbitrarily arrested thousands of left-wing foreign residents in the US and shipped them back to Europe.

Anti-communist hysteria grew in the 1950s to the national obscenity that has become known as McCarthyism, which ruined countless careers and lives with trumped-up charges and headline-grabbing congressional investigations.

At the same time, the foundations of the modern conservative "movement" that has now taken over the Republican Party were being laid in the ultra-right wing John Birch Society and other conspiracy-minded groups convinced that communist agents had infiltrated the highest levels of the US government.

Another gifted demagogue, Ronald Reagan, broadened the definition of the "enemy" to include the entire federal government.

'Big government'

Millions of people now firmly believe that "big government" is evil, that they should not be forced to pay taxes for any public services and that the true-blue American (white, of course) "goes it alone", with his grit and his guns, instead of relying on and participating in a wider community.

Of course, these people can realise their dream of living in a no-taxes, no-government, guns-for-all society simply by moving to Somalia.


"Of course, these people can realise their dream of living in a no-taxes, no-government, guns-for-all society simply by moving to Somalia"
So, when you see these town-hall hatemongers, gun-toting "patriots" and whacked-out conspiracy theorists on your TV, remember that they are not merely common, garden variety lunatics, but heirs to a rich and time-honoured American tradition.

The last word here must go to the irrepressible representative Barney Frank, the overweight, gay, Jewish Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, who is perhaps the smartest man currently holding public office in America.

Frank was confronted by a woman at a town hall meeting brandishing a poster of Obama-as-Hitler, who took the microphone and demanded: "Why do you continue to support a Nazi policy as Obama has expressly supported this policy? Why are you supporting it?"

Frank responded: "I am going to revert to my ethnic heritage and answer your question with a question. On what planet do you spend most of your time?"

The woman kept talking, unaware that she had just been verbally body-slammed by a master.

Frank observed: "Ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table."

That's the way to deal with the ignorant, paranoid style.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:53 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Of course your own people running loose, armed and confused doesn't stop you from trying to force others to do as you want, and not as they wish


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8174057.stm


Honduras officials lose US visas
Manuel Zelaya talks to supporters in Nicaragua on

The US has revoked the visas of four members of the interim Honduran government as it presses for the return of ousted president Manuel Zelaya.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Hmmm. Isn't this kinda like painting all Muslims as terrorists because of the actions of a few?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 3:41 AM

BYTEMITE


That is the longest bit of trope, partisan, oversimplifying propaganda that I've ever had the privilege to stop reading.

And I even support the public option.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Of course, these people can realise their dream of living in a no-taxes, no-government, guns-for-all society simply by moving to Somalia."

Hello,

I remember when opponents of Bush were told to move elsewhere. I remember how angry they got, because it was wrong to tell them to move elsewhere when they clearly cared about fixing the mismanagement here, where they lived now.

It is also dismaying that the writer of the article assumes that if someone doesn't want his version of government, they want no government.

It is dismaying also that the writer has done no research whatsoever on Somalia. A wikipedia article would have sufficed to dislodge some of his false preconceptions about the place.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

One last thing to add: Nothing new is happening. There is nothing truly remarkable going on with 'today's USA' or 'Obama protesters.'





Well, maybe one remarkable thing is happening...

People feel safe strapping one on in protest to Obama, and that much is a good thing.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:04 AM

HKCAVALIER


I am confused.

Bytemite, where's the "partisan propaganda?" Seems the gist of the article is that paranoid dust-ups, rather than being limited to what folk would like to call the "lunatic fringe," have been part and parcel of mainstream American politics from the get go. Seems to me he's got a point. What's your problem with it?

And Anthony, as a dues paying member of the Grand Old Anarchist Confederation, I'm not fond of the "Want no gov'ment, try Somalia--har har, hardy har har" meme, but I certainly know a joke, however lame it may be, when I see one.

When Bush's critics were told to leave the country, it was in earnest, it was a threat--"If you're not with us, you're against us." I knew plenty of folk who took it seriously, and contemplated leaving the country. This suggestion that folk who want a "no-taxes, no-government, guns-for-all-society" move to Somalia is plainly meant as satire, which clearly distinguishes it from the jingoism of a few years back. I promise you, no one is thinking of taking this writer up on his suggestion. "C'mon, Mother, pack up the kids, we're headed out Somali' way, where a man at least can breath free!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Cavalier,

It's the second time in a week I've seen someone make this joke.

Some jokes don't make me laugh.

Small government people should move to Somalia. Hee!

Black people should move to Africa. Ha!

Jewish people should move to Israel. Ho Ho Ho!

It's all in good fun, as long as you wink, eh?

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I remember when opponents of Bush were told to move elsewhere. I remember how angry they got, because it was wrong to tell them to move elsewhere when they clearly cared about fixing the mismanagement here, where they lived now.



Yup, it's wrong on both sides--any side--and shows a very closed mind. I didn't read all of that article, either, it's a waste, obvious from the beginning. But what's happening is undeniably dangerous, to me; our country has a long history of shooting at politicians which isn't healthy and is disheartening.

It's human mentality, unfortunately, to be tempted to live in the black and white, to take a side and dehumanize the other when feelings run hot. Sad little species, we are.

But what's happening right now is especially sick; imagining what would have happened to those of us who disagreed with Bush in comparison shows something I both admire and abhor about Dems--they don't clamp down like tyrants, but they also need to grow a pair to fight the very effective games of the right.

The article obviously doesn't reflect the realities of the world insofar as it's almost as slanted as some of the shit I see on the internet from the right. I wish people could be more decent when it comes to politics, and religion, but we all know those are really polarizing topics, so it's not all that surprising that people go to extremes. I'm glad they're in the minority, tho' from the way the media portrays it, you wouldn't think so.

It's sicker still to me that these people are being played for fools and used as pawns by well-financed groups representing healthcare companies. People just don't take the time to think for themselves sometimes, on any side of something as contentious as government, and that's sad. And angering.

I disagree that
Quote:

This suggestion that folk who want a "no-taxes, no-government, guns-for-all-society" move to Somalia is plainly meant as satire, which clearly distinguishes it from the jingoism of a few years back.


People are saying it now in perfect seriousness, just as they did critics of the Bush administration. It may be couched as a joke here, but elsewhere it definitely isn't. To me it's all a result of the McCain/Palin tactics during the campaign, which riled up the base and haven't even slowed down since Obama took office. It IS, to me, a result of fearing new, different, "other", and for many people racism fired up into giving people the feeling they're right in what they do and say. Bad human species, bad species!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:19 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Awwwwwww

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Now THAT is truly pathetic, and just proves my point. Lack of anything intelligent to say on an issue shows exactly the sadness of which I spoke.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Bytemite, where's the "partisan propaganda?"

Hello,

It may feel partisan because the author reached into the way-back machine to find vehement foamy-mouthed ugly protesters.

When he only needed to reach back to the last presidential cycle. "Indeed," the author might have said, "nothing new is happening, because we tried our best to do this very thing a short time ago."

The credit is that these maniacs are given more freedom to voice their vitriol than previously, and that does please me. I would not want to see that change, even when these idjits offend my sensibilities.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:26 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Hmmm. Isn't this kinda like painting all Muslims as terrorists because of the actions of a few?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




True, but this has been such of focus of media attention it has derailed the healthcare debate.

I am sure such people are a minority, but they are currently swinging influence far exceeding their numbers and by covering in the way they have the media is making the US look like a country of gun swinging idiots.

Calling someone a Socialist Nazi... lol


and meanwhile the US gov is trying to find ways to penalize Honduras because their Supreme court kicked out THEIR president and called an ELECTION when they caught him trying to play fast and lose with their constitution,


I blame the media for giving idiots more attention than they deserve, and the government for looking creating problems overseas and not dealing with problems at home.




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:38 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Bytemite, where's the "partisan propaganda?"

Hello,

It may feel partisan because the author reached into the way-back machine to find vehement foamy-mouthed ugly protesters.

When he only needed to reach back to the last presidential cycle. "Indeed," the author might have said, "nothing new is happening, because we tried our best to do this very thing a short time ago."

The credit is that these maniacs are given more freedom to voice their vitriol than previously, and that does please me. I would not want to see that change, even when these idjits offend my sensibilities.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner




I think it is deeper than that....


can US politics survive without having some enemy to rail against?

has there been a time where there wasn't some threat to force unity?

would things all come apart without that forced common cause ?

external conflicts like the Cold war, the war on terror, the war on drugs, etc have been propagandized and exaggerated far beyond reality, the same with many internal conflicts




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I think it's also pissin folk off that those with valid, articulate concerns are not only getting drowned out by this shit, but also getting dismissed with it.

Which of course pisses them off even more, which feeds the cycle of rage.

Me, I'm done talkin, well, not so much, but while makin my point on one hand, I am sure as bloody hell dumping fistfulls of sand in the gears with the other.

You wanna bend a politician, you need *more* than a loud mouth, you need more than the will of the people cause it's obvious they don't much care - you need LEVERAGE.

How you get it, how you use it, we call that politics, folks.

-F

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:58 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Cavalier,

It's the second time in a week I've seen someone make this joke.

Some jokes don't make me laugh.

Small government people should move to Somalia. Hee!

Black people should move to Africa. Ha!

Jewish people should move to Israel. Ho Ho Ho!

It's all in good fun, as long as you wink, eh?

Anthony, you're an enormously discerning person, don't you see a fundamental difference between the Somalia comment and the Africa and Israel comments you compare it to? I'm kinda bowled over that you would make this kind of equivocating argument. Americans really have wanted to send the Africans back to Africa, as well as Jews to Israel--and they've killed Africans and Jews to get their point across.

Whereas, there is NO actual movement to send right-wingers to Somalia! No right-winger has been lynched or burned or even had their windows spray-painted with "get out." "Get out" wouldn't even make sense. Get out of what? The house? The county? And who could my fictional right-winger imagine did the deed? His neighbor who wanted his land?

Whereas, if you paint "get out" on a black man's window or a Jew's, well, they'd have a pretty good idea what was meant by it, now wouldn't they?

Apples meet oranges! The Somalia joke is absurd, the threats against Blacks and Jews, not so much. Sure, there is intolerance, a lot o' lefties would just as soon the right go away somewhere, but there is no movement to relocate right-wingers. And there is a huge difference between a loony carrying a sign and the President of the United States himself making threats against anyone who is "against" him. There's a difference between a bad joke and a bad joke backed up with brutality and guns.

Still confused.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

And there is a huge difference between a loony carrying a sign and the President of the United States himself making threats against anyone who is "against" him. There's a difference between a bad joke and a bad joke backed up with brutality and guns.


Word.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Cavalier,

It is my experience that when people say, "If you don't like it, then get out," they are in fact not making a joke. Oh, they may smile, and they may even want a laugh, but it's not really all in good fun. The conservative who says it to the Liberal probably does wish the Liberal would move to Canada or France or some place far away where his rediculous ideas won't contaminate the country. The Liberal who says it to the conservative may not in fact actually wish the person in question to relocate to Somalia. But they probably do wish they'd either go away (some ambiguous not here place) or shut up.

It means, in short, "Your opinion doesn't belong here," and by extension, "you don't belong here."

I've been listening to it for eight years, almost nine now. "If you don't like it, then leave." "Why don't you move to France and join the cheese eating surrender monkeys?" Now it's two barrels firing over the fence. "If you like socialism, move to Canada, or England, or-" Or wherever. And now "If you don't like government, move to Somalia."

And hey, so sorry if it doesn't sound very different from, "If you like the Quran so much, move to Iran."

I can see the thin side of the wedge, and I know what happens when you hammer it in. So do you, apparently. But what you don't see, is that horrible things don't begin with a claymore in your chest. Jewish people did not manifest into the world as fully hated and stereotyped personalities. Socialism was not born into the 20th century as a dirty word. Those congressional hearings to weed out and blacklist members of the communist party did not start the weekend after Marx wrote an optimistic book about everyone getting what they need.

Nothing starts as a gaping wound from a giant sword.

It all starts with a tiny little prick.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:32 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

One last thing to add: Nothing new is happening. There is nothing truly remarkable going on with 'today's USA' or 'Obama protesters.'



Sure there is - Obama isn't corralling them into "Free speech zones" or having them arrested for protesting.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Well," Anthony said at the conclusion of his post, "maybe one remarkable thing is happening...

People feel safe strapping one on in protest to Obama, and that much is a good thing."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:52 AM

HKCAVALIER


Well, when Obama's jackboots bang on Ted Nugent's door and ship him off to Somalia, I won't blame you for saying, "I told you so."

Sorry, T, I just don't see it happening. It strikes me that your line of argument actually supports the author's contention that Americans are a paranoid people. I'll admit that the prospect of President Palin had me pretty worried, actually. To me her presidency would have signaled a profound failure of the American system and it might have sent me over the border to the north, but I'm a great believer in human nature and in the Constitution of this country. And with the decisive victory of Barrack Obama, I feel vindicated in my belief. I see things getting out of wack, but not too out of wack before things'll swing back the other way. On balance we have a remarkable system in this country. With the kind of corporate domination we have in this country, things could be much, much worse (a joke occures to me, directed at no one here--you like corporations so much, why don'tcha move to China! Hardy har har).

Y'know, there is something deeply precarious about this American experiment. I need go no further for evidence than our National Anthem. That song is an ode to the "iffy" nature of our American sovereignty. It asks, after all the smoke has cleared, when the battle's lost and won, is our flag still there? Is it? Is it really? Kind of amazing to me that this genuinely desperate question to this day rings throughout the land in every school room, and on every playing field.

And further, our country's mad dash toward totalitarianism after 9/11 attests to the fragility of American calm.

Less confused.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Cavalier,

I encourage people to be very suspicious. Paranoia suggests some level of rationality has been lost, and I hope I don't fall that far.

When people start stereotyping other people, and then suggesting in any way that they are not as valid, as equal, or as entitled to live as they please, I get darn suspicious. And you're right, it probably won't happen that either liberals or conservatives are rounded up and exported. Or numbered. Or segregated. Or slain. It probably won't happen.

But it's a lot easier to nudge a missile at the beginning of its trajectory than at its end. I'll be crying foul as often as I see and recognize it. And if it wasn't going anywhere? Well, it still won't go anywhere. And if it was?

What if that's the one? The one I didn't shout about? What if that's the one that gets the dirty deed done?

I invite you to join me, if not in paranoia, at least with some healthy suspicion. Whenever someone says that 'they' oughta go 'there' it's worth it to say nay. To hold up the stink and invite them to smell it. Right up front, right away, right now.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

It is my experience that when people say, "If you don't like it, then get out," they are in fact not making a joke.



Just to be sure - you aren't talking about my response to your US gov changes wish list are you?

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm afraid I don't remember what response that was (the swiss manufactured my brain in a cheese factory and exported it to Hialeah Hospital for final assembly in the USA.)

However, I think I remember that there was a comparison in that thread made between changing jobs, changing products usage, and changing government, with the difficulties of each compared and contrasted based on varying points of view.

I don't remember anyone opining that I should Move to X. But if you did, then :-P.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

People feel safe strapping one on in protest to Obama, and that much is a good thing
I couldn't disagree more. I find that rationale dangerous, short-sighted and unreasonable. JMHO

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:24 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I'm afraid I don't remember what response that was (the swiss manufactured my brain in a cheese factory and exported it to Hialeah Hospital for final assembly in the USA.)

However, I think I remember that there was a comparison in that thread made between changing jobs, changing products usage, and changing government, with the difficulties of each compared and contrasted based on varying points of view.

I don't remember anyone opining that I should Move to X. But if you did, then :-P.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Well, I am comforted by your selective memory - fwiw, I did say I thought you would be missed.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

People feel safe strapping one on in protest to Obama, and that much is a good thing
I couldn't disagree more. I find that rationale dangerous, short-sighted and unreasonable. JMHO



It seems incredibly selfish at a time like this doesn't it? Something I'm afraid my fellow Americans excel at.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

The alternative to feeling safe doing so would be to believe that the government would accost you for doing something that they don't like.

This was the reality I perceived under the last president. I do not think he would have respected the rights of armed americans protesting his actions. He frequently enough seemed to make trouble for unarmed americans who did so.

The fact that these people feel safe strapping one on suggests to me that they actually believe the country is freer than it was before, regardless of statements to the contrary. You do not feel safe protesting in a tyrannical regime, most especially not with firearms.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:54 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The fact that these people feel safe strapping one on suggests to me that they actually believe the country is freer than it was before, regardless of statements to the contrary. You do not feel safe protesting in a tyrannical regime, most especially not with firearms.

--Anthony




Hi Anthony - Where's the other Anthony? The one that has been so even in his take on most political issues, but especially evenhanded and insightful on simple human issues?
This one posting recently seems measurable levels of more pissed and more detached.
You are *respectfully* out of your mind if you think theses folk are celebrating this administration and it's new freeness - or if you want us to buy that that's what you really think. I think once again that you are just having an odd kind of fun.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Pizmo,

I think you are missing my point, or my point is missing its mark.

These people are obviously angry at the administration in general and possibly Obama in particular. They are protesting changes that they aren't comfortable with. However, their actions are not consistent with a belief that the government has become more tyrannical. Their actions are consistent with a belief that the government is LESS tyrannical.

If I may use an example...

A person living in Iran would not feel safe holding up a sign that says "Muhammad Sux." Nor would a person in Nazi Germany feel safe holding up a sign that said "Hitler is a Jerk" at a Hitler speech. Now, I suppose a person might still hold up such a sign in the hopes that their death or lengthy incarceration would make a political point. But he wouldn't feel safe. He would know that at any given moment, a lynching or murder of his person was imminent.

I honestly don't think a person would have felt safe, under the last administration, in holding up a "Bush is the Disease, Death is the Cure" sign at a Bush speech with an AR-15 slung over one shoulder. I feel that the last administration was hardly tolerant of the regular kind of free speech, much less the kind of free speech that puts a rifle on a protester's person at a presidential appearance.

I don't think any of these people would feel safe doing these things, do you?

But there are people strapping on firearms, holding up signs suggesting governmental overthrow and the death of presiding tyrants. These people appear to be doing this with the general expectation that they will NOT be shot, NOT be sent to jail, and NOT be accosted. Whatever sentiments they are trying to express, their actions communicate very loudly what their actual beliefs are. They may not like Obama, but they don't really think he's Hitler. If they did, they wouldn't expect to stand out there safely. They'd expect to be killed.

I read a book recently which was highly biased, but managed to make a few sound points amidst its tragically skewed point of view. It was called Empire of Trust, and it tried to present the old Roman Republic as an Empire which people generally expected to behave itself. Minor nations of little power would frequently send representatives to appear in the senate, rail against the actions of the Romans, and expect that rep to walk out again. Moreover, they actually believed their grievences would be listened to and responded to. Shockingly, they frequently were. Whatever their grievences, even when the Romans of the time misbehaved, other nations generally believed that the Romans could be trusted to make things right again. This is a rather singular and unexpected amongst nations of the day.

So, if the pisspot nobodies of southeast nowhereland came to the senate, called the Romans bloodthirsty monsters, and asked them to redress grievences, you KNEW right away that they believed no such thing. Bloodthirsty monsters don't listen to grievences and respond to them. There is little point in even making the attempt, since it might provoke further hostility. If pisspot nobodies of southeasst nowhereland are coming to you and complaining, then they probably feel safe doing so.

Just as these yahoos with .45's and Obama hitler signs clearly don't REALLY believe Obama is hitler. They believe he's reasonable enough to tolerate their armed dissent. So they may be angry, and they certainly aren't celebrating the freedom they feel... Not intentionally, anyway.

But each and every one of them is a monument to a freer country, no matter what point they intended to make.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:53 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
True, but this has been such of focus of media attention it has derailed the healthcare debate.


The healthcare debate ended when Sen. Kennedy died. The effort to make the healthcare bill a memorial to him has already started, and opposing it will be hard. The most opponents can expect is to limit it a bit.

Quote:

and meanwhile the US gov is trying to find ways to penalize Honduras...

But not very hard. I believe that the US is mostly trying to pay lip service to the OAS, and isn't applying but a fraction of the leverage it could. I suspect the US Gov't is really pretty happy not to have another Chavez-in-training in Latin America.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:20 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I think you are missing my point, or my point is missing its mark.

These people are obviously angry at the administration in general and possibly Obama in particular. They are protesting changes that they aren't comfortable with. However, their actions are not consistent with a belief that the government has become more tyrannical. Their actions are consistent with a belief that the government is LESS tyrannical.

If I may use an example...

A person living in Iran would not feel safe holding up a sign that says "Muhammad Sux." Nor would a person in Nazi Germany feel safe holding up a sign that said "Hitler is a Jerk" at a Hitler speech. Now, I suppose a person might still hold up such a sign in the hopes that their death or lengthy incarceration would make a political point. But he wouldn't feel safe. He would know that at any given moment, a lynching or murder of his person was imminent.

I honestly don't think a person would have felt safe, under the last administration, in holding up a "Bush is the Disease, Death is the Cure" sign at a Bush speech with an AR-15 slung over one shoulder. I feel that the last administration was hardly tolerant of the regular kind of free speech, much less the kind of free speech that puts a rifle on a protester's person at a presidential appearance.

I don't think any of these people would feel safe doing these things, do you?



Hi Anthony - thanks for the explanation, but again I respectfully beg to differ on several points.

You say they are "possibly" unhappy with Obama? They have left no other option - "Death to Obama, to Michelle and Her Two Stupid Kids" doesn't leave much room.

These people do not feel safer, they feel emboldened by a complete lack of respect for Obama and encouraged by their MSM to show open contempt, as if to say, "he's not MY president."

More irony? For all their aggressive threat displays, the inability to say, ok, "show me what you got," is just simple weakness.

You are right to assume that this behavior would not have been tolerated by the last Bush, that fact - given his contrived gun happy, good ole boy image - is the definition of irony.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Just as these yahoos with .45's and Obama hitler signs clearly don't REALLY believe Obama is hitler. They believe he's reasonable enough to tolerate their armed dissent. So they may be angry, and they certainly aren't celebrating the freedom they feel... Not intentionally, anyway.

But each and every one of them is a monument to a freer country, no matter what point they intended to make.


Thank you very much Anthony, for making a point I would not have known how to put in words other folk could understand.

These folk are dipshits, but as you say, their actions actually reflect in opposition to their intended point - an irony not at all lost on me.

Geeze ?
Quote:

I suspect the US Gov't is really pretty happy not to have another Chavez-in-training in Latin America.

As opposed to another Pinochet-in-training ?

You look under all the phony outrage* you'll find that the State Depts REAL problem with these guys is that they're not on our payroll, not what they DO.

-Frem

*PS: Yes, I am well aware that there's some pretty damned valid criticism of Chavez and his actions, I've ventured some myself, just sayin that the State Dept only seems to have a problem with it when it's not some dickhead we propped up doin it.

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Thursday, August 27, 2009 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

These people do not feel safer, they feel emboldened by a complete lack of respect for Obama and encouraged by their MSM to show open contempt, as if to say, "he's not MY president."


I think that's a valid point. I think it's also a valid point that they feel free to express themselves because the administration IS more open and tolerant.

The two put together make for both good and bad, unfortunately, and it's definitely ironic that they call Obama Hitler, etc., without realizing that this administration IS more tolerant and allows them to be so extreme without retribution.

I also think there's no contradiction between Bush's "good old boy" gun totin' image and the acceptance to his tyrany. He was "one of them", so no reason to demonstrate against them. A lot of this fear is fear that Democrats will tighten the gun laws and "take our guns away"...that's been propagated along with the so-called "fiscal conservatism", "family values" and "moral superiority" with respect to the Republican party for ages. It's another good tool to fire up their base, IMHO.

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Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:50 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Wait for the fallout if the secret service finds it necessary to drop one of these whack a doodles




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I see the propaganda machine is back.

Always 'on-message', eh Geezer ?


"The healthcare debate ended when Sen. Kennedy died. The effort to make the healthcare bill a memorial to him has already started, and opposing it will be hard. The most opponents can expect is to limit it a bit."


"Conservatives Invoke Wellstone Memorial Smear In Predicting Politicization Of Kennedy's Death"

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I see the propaganda machine is back.

Always 'on-message', eh Geezer ?


"The healthcare debate ended when Sen. Kennedy died. The effort to make the healthcare bill a memorial to him has already started, and opposing it will be hard. The most opponents can expect is to limit it a bit."


"Conservatives Invoke Wellstone Memorial Smear In Predicting Politicization Of Kennedy's Death"




Leaping to conclusions again, I see. I'm pretty much neutral on health care reform, as long as it doesn't mess too much with my current policy or increase taxes too much. My take on the current health care legislation being tied to Sen. Kennedy's death is based on stuff I heard on NPR while on my coast-to-coast trip. Several Democratic party leaders have talked about Sen. Kennedy's "unfinished business" relating to health care, so I suspect they'll use that to push their legislation.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 27, 2009 4:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I see the propaganda machine is back.

Always 'on-message', eh Geezer ?


"The healthcare debate ended when Sen. Kennedy died. The effort to make the healthcare bill a memorial to him has already started, and opposing it will be hard. The most opponents can expect is to limit it a bit."


"Conservatives Invoke Wellstone Memorial Smear In Predicting Politicization Of Kennedy's Death"




Leaping to conclusions again, I see. I'm pretty much neutral on health care reform, as long as it doesn't mess too much with my current policy or increase taxes too much. My take on the current health care legislation being tied to Sen. Kennedy's death is based on stuff I heard on NPR while on my coast-to-coast trip. Several Democratic party leaders have talked about Sen. Kennedy's "unfinished business" relating to health care, so I suspect they'll use that to push their legislation.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




I think it would be pretty irresponsible of the conservatives to " end " the debate for this reason... mind you I think they should be speaking out against the circus acts a little more, and try to help shape this policy.

Democracy only works when all the voices are heard

( and the whack a doodles have been heard from enough )



" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, August 28, 2009 2:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think it would be pretty irresponsible of the conservatives to " end " the debate for this reason... mind you I think they should be speaking out against the circus acts a little more, and try to help shape this policy.

Democracy only works when all the voices are heard

( and the whack a doodles have been heard from enough )



I doubt that conservatives will lay down on the issue, but they're gonna have to get used to Democrats invoking Sen. Kennedy's "un-finished business" at every turn. I suspect that they'll end up conceding more points than they normally would.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 28, 2009 4:06 AM

DREAMTROVE


There's a ton of evidence so far to indicate that the people holding up swastikas at so called healthcare protests are in fact in the pay of the pro-healthcare movement. I suspect behind this is the recipients of the handout, largely Merck. I just hope the result is that the debt will be increased to pay these guys rather than people being forced to buy the product themselves.

I don't think that it's fair to compare a policy that forces you to pay an exorbitant tax in exchange for having a child, which, once mandatory, would go up, and the value of the dollar and salaries are both projected to go down.

If someone who knows the industry better can throw a figure on it, what I found was around $2-3000/year/child. The Nazis were actually in favor of children, and gave bonuses to families that had them. I think jewish children were just killed, not taxed. I don't see a similarity at all. The policy proposed by Obama on the campaign was one of the reasons I didn't vote for him, but it has reached a point where there is no benefit to being an american citizen, I think probably we should all become illegal aliens.

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Friday, August 28, 2009 4:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Several Democratic party leaders have talked about Sen. Kennedy's "unfinished business" relating to health care ..."

And that makes it 'politicizing' his death for 'their' ends. I see.

Would you have people talk about Michael Jackson without mentioning that he was a popular dancer and singer ?

How does mentioning Kennedy's life's work mean his death is being 'politicized' ? How does mentioning the bill HE wrote right before he became ill an died 'politicize' it ? (And BTW, which republicans voted AGAINST, and who are now hypocritically saying 'if he hadn't died we would have reform today'.)



"... so I suspect they'll use that to push their legislation."

Yep. YOUR smear means of course THEY are 'politicizing' it. Strange, you're spewing just like all the other wight-wing liars. You're just a right-wing tool, ever-ready with a lie, and on-message, as always.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, August 28, 2009 10:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Several Democratic party leaders have talked about Sen. Kennedy's "unfinished business" relating to health care ..."

And that makes it 'politicizing' his death for 'their' ends.



Yep. It's a good hook to hang their campaign on. They'd be stupid if they didn't use it. I'd bet Sen. Kennedy would have wanted them to.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 28, 2009 6:18 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, just because they mention the VERY LAST THING HE DID before he became ill and died - THEY are making political hay --- and YOU'RE not with your baseless LIES ?

Slick, you got some serious ethics problems when it comes to basic honesty.

***************************************************************

Though really, I think you've been playing the game so long you don't even know what you think anymore. You are a fractured mind running on habit, because there is nothing else left of you. You kinda' remind me of the Alzheimer's patient who kept pulling his pork, even though it was a mindless habit at that point.

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Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So, just because they mention the VERY LAST THING HE DID before he became ill and died - THEY are making political hay...



Of course they are. And I don't consider it wrong.

Sen. Kennedy has been working on health care reform since at least the 70's, and after his loss of the presidential nomination in 1980 made it one of his top priorities. To think that the proponents of reform wouldn't invoke his name and legacy in support of the current legislation is just silly. I suspect that a lot of Democrats DO see getting healthcare passed as a memorial to him, and are quite willing to reverently use his name to get that done.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, I get your point. I misunderstood it, and yes, I feel the same way, in theory. In practice, it worries me. I don't want a return to Dumbya's tyranny, but I've worried for Obama ever since he was nominated, and my fears are only increased by what I see happening.

Let them feel safe "strapping one on". Let the Secret Service, then, remove the guns until after the event and then give them back. That takes away the threat, but allows them their freedom to carry a gun. Unfettered freedom leads to the freedom of the worst among us to create havoc. That's my belief, and I've seen nothing to contradict it yet. I see nothing wrong in removing the gun; I don't want them arrested, it's their legal right to carry arms, but neither do I want them free to carry them near our President.

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Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

There's a ton of evidence so far to indicate that the people holding up swastikas at so called healthcare protests are in fact in the pay of the pro-healthcare movement.
Ahh, don'tcha just love it? Ignore reality and turn the argument on its head.

IF what you posit were true, why aren't the Republican politicians saying it and decrying the actions of the disrupters at the town-hall meetings, instead of staying silent and encouraging it?

It's ridiculous...that there are those not who not only hate Obama enough to consider him a Hitler but are emboldened by others making the comparison is pretty obvious from OTHER signs they have held up--or are you saying all the town-hall protesters are democrat shills?

I would like to see healthcare passed, however it's done. What is the response to the fact that our costs have gone through the roof, people who HAVE health insurance are losing their homes, people without it are jamming emergency rooms, etc., etc.? What reasonable proposal has the right put up to counter the healthcare reform proposed? I'm still waiting for that one--I hear dribs and drabs of "reform", but none of them work and few of them are real reform, but nothing substantial as an alternative.

Except "kill the bill", "Obama's waterloo", etc. It's pretty obvious, and has been for quite some time, that the right only wants to bring Obama down, not represent the American people who voted them into office.

And yes, I saw McCain making his cute little "if Kennedy hadn't died..." remark, which is doubly disgusting in that he never ONCE debated healthcare with Kennedy, nor offered any reasonable alternatives.

Sometimes politics is truly pathetic...well, actually I suppose, most of the time.

I say go Kennedy...if you can achieve in death what you couldn't achieve in decades of trying while alive, more power to 'ya!
________________________
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Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:36 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


healthcare seems to be one of the places where Australia is more advanced than the US, we've had public health care since the 70s (thank you, gough). i don't understand why people are so against giving people that can't afford private health care public health care, or why people are so close-minded when i comes to having a president or prime minister that they didn't vote for and that no matter what facts you say they can't be turned around

i also doubt that the world would unite if faced with a crises, i just think that half the world would want it to happen and fight for it because it's God/Allah/Santa's will

yea, i'm just a bit of a cynic

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Sunday, August 30, 2009 2:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Niki,

The alternative to feeling safe doing so would be to believe that the government would accost you for doing something that they don't like.

This was the reality I perceived under the last president. I do not think he would have respected the rights of armed americans protesting his actions. He frequently enough seemed to make trouble for unarmed americans who did so.

The fact that these people feel safe strapping one on suggests to me that they actually believe the country is freer than it was before, regardless of statements to the contrary. You do not feel safe protesting in a tyrannical regime, most especially not with firearms.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Rather ironic, isn't it? These people will NEVER agree with you that they're more free than they were just one short year ago, but their very actions prove the point that they indeed are more free. And most ironic of all? They hate their newfound freedoms so much, they want to kill the President to gave them more freedom. Seems very... American, doesn't it?

Mike


ETA: Darn - guess that's what I get for showing up late to a thread and not reading ALL the responses before posting my own. Looks like several people already pointed out and commented on the inherent irony in this situation.

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Sunday, August 30, 2009 2:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Several Democratic party leaders have talked about Sen. Kennedy's "unfinished business" relating to health care ..."

And that makes it 'politicizing' his death for 'their' ends. I see.

Would you have people talk about Michael Jackson without mentioning that he was a popular dancer and singer ?

How does mentioning Kennedy's life's work mean his death is being 'politicized' ? How does mentioning the bill HE wrote right before he became ill an died 'politicize' it ? (And BTW, which republicans voted AGAINST, and who are now hypocritically saying 'if he hadn't died we would have reform today'.)



"... so I suspect they'll use that to push their legislation."

Yep. YOUR smear means of course THEY are 'politicizing' it. Strange, you're spewing just like all the other wight-wing liars. You're just a right-wing tool, ever-ready with a lie, and on-message, as always.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




Frankly, I have ZERO problem with politicizing Kennedy's death to push healthcare reform forward. In fact, I'm quite sure it's what Teddy would have wanted. I *HOPE* the Democrats will have the balls to invoke Teddy's name and life's work in the efforts to move forward on this issue. It worked wonders for LBJ when he was trying to get things done; all he had to do was invoke the memory of "our beloved President, John F. Kennedy."

Mike


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Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:07 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Frankly, I have ZERO problem with politicizing Kennedy's death to push healthcare reform forward. In fact, I'm quite sure it's what Teddy would have wanted.



Okay, this is officially getting wierd. Mike and I agree on two things in a single month. It's either time to buy a lottery ticket...or more ammo.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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