Individual, Personal, Self Defense. by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Individual, Personal, Self Defense.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 16:42
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VIEWED: 3582
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Monday, August 24, 2009 11:51 AM

Quote:

While fighting, one pulled out a boxcutter. She cut the other from her temple down to her chin. Her flesh peeled from her face, and hung there swinging.

Something similar happened to me. It's the sort of thing that makes you scoff at people who "oh no, I can't stand the pain, Eek!" and the whole euthanasia crowd. Who was it who wrote the poem in which I think it's a squirrel says to a hunter "can't you see I'm doing everything I can to stay *in* my mysery?"

My pain record is pretty high, I suspect Frem's takes the cake on this one. Having your face ripped off is painfull, ditto for knees, teeth, and guts, been through a lot, I might make 2nd place. I do know a guy who was shot in the head twice in Iraq though, once was actually a bomb. Ow.

Frem,

See something you like?

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Monday, August 24, 2009 12:01 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Agent, I didnt mean it like that.

Violence might beget violence... but that is not necessarily a BAD thing.

Someone tries to hurt me or mine, I will fuck their shit up. No doubt, no question.

Someone who lived behind the golden gates? In the happy world of the "normals"? (90210 springs to mind for some reason)

Their family and friends are prey.

ETA: My point is that people, normal people, NEED to see that bad things can happen. They need to "man up", learn to fight... something!

Its not ok to just walk through life, whistleing a happy tune, and think that nothing could ever happen. You MUST be ready. Because if the worst happens, I dont want you guys to be unprepared.

I've seen good people, INNOCENT people, hurt... far and away when I couldn't do anything for them. And part of it was that they WERE innocent. They ignored/missed/didn't believe that horror could visit them.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 12:27 PM

HKCAVALIER

In before Frem comes with the verbal smack down.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Maybe. Like I said, I could be wrong.

But it seems to me, that the folks who proclaim that "violence only begets violence".... have never been punched in the face. And, maybe, they should be.

The appropriate use of violence, in defense of ones self or others, is NEVER wrong.

But Wulf, our own buddy Frem has told you as much in every thread you've argued the contrary, you hand him a shamefaced "Yes, teacher" reply and then here you are again, saying that if we all knew violence like you've known we'd all be as bloodthirsty as you. So is Frem right, or do you just like to b.s. your allies? I've seen you do this too many times now. You nod and say you "respect" Frem's insights and then when Frem ain't lookin' you pick another poster (always female, btw) to bully with how you have no choice and yet are not a victim.

I'm sorry you had a shitty therapist. It's a very common experience of chronic abuse survivors. I was wildly lucky to only have 2 therapists in my life and both were extraordinary men. You might look into the concept of "introjection." It's been a major issue for me in life. It's hard, when you've seen as much violence as you have to really get out of it, even when people try to help. I know it was excruciatingly hard for me. Took me years of "wasted" therapy before I understood what it meant to really trust another living human being.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 12:33 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Lol

Wow.

"You hand him a shamefaced "Yes, teacher" reply"

Ok... this is obviously an attempt to get under my skin. Sorry HK, Im not biting today.

AND while I do respect Frems opinions, I think even he will admit he doenst know everything....

In any case.... not going to freak out today. Sorry.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 2:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf,

HK doesn't play whackamole, so you can't dodge this bullet, but I'm also going to beat Frem to the smackdown on this one. There's some folk on the forum who've been through a Rambo level of hell, and so if you want to lay down your cards, we can talk, but if you're just going to play the victim card, I don't think anyone is interest.

So, you think you had it rough? Fire away, but don't hide behind some mask claiming you had it rougher than the rest of us, cause that ain't gonna fly too well. I've seen a picture of you, and last I checked you were all in one piece, happily married. Childhood trauma? Yeah, I believe in it. A friend of mine was locked in a room for 10 years, dinner slid under the door. Three friend who were used as slave labor until they were 18, I know ten more. I know some people who didn't come through their childhood in one piece, and way to many who didn't come through it at all. I know some people who've been through the war, and then the next one, I have friends who spent their childhood in an actual war, people who raised their families by themselves. So yeah, I have seen my share, more than my share, and I have no shortage of scars to show for it. And, yeah, I know you were beat up by some G's, who wasn't? You think that was the worst thing to ever happen. Emotional scars, check this one out, my best friend killed himself on my 16th birthday. Sweet, huh? That's one, I got 100 more. You want to play the victim card, go ahead. But don't assume that the non-violent among us haven't seen their share, and then some.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 2:09 PM

HKCAVALIER

Not looking for you to freakout, Wulf, maybe just sober up. I'm tired of you bullying people on the grounds that they haven't been in a knife fight. I'm tired of you invalidating the opinions of other posters because you think your suffering makes you superior. I'm tired of you changing your tune depending on how vulnerable the other person is.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 2:34 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

My point was not to play the victim card, just to show that this kind of stuff is out there. Its there, no matter what you see on t.v. Or what propaganda you hear.

And to warn you that you can't just wish it away. You have to be ready for it. You have to look for it.

I hope that is clearer.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 4:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf

Hope you got my point.

For the record, I never had a TV. I didn't go to school, most people know that. I'm a rural farmer. But I travel a lot, and sometimes I find myself in a war zone, even a target. I've had to flee fascist militias in a war zone by hook or by crook, and I voluntarily put myself in these situations, and will again in the not too distant future. And I'm the first to admit, I'm a rank amateur. That's why I listen to people on the board with more experience and knowledge then myself. That information may save my life. What I care to believe is irrelevant.

I've known gangstas, friend and foe, and had friends mowed down by them. Fucking dumb ass way to go. These are people whose world is so small that they think they control 153rd street or whatever. Not just who cares, but no they don't, they're all pawns.

A friend is coming to visit me tomorrow. He was in the yugoslav war. Lost a battle there, 15,000 men women and children were slaughtered. I know people like that. I know a guy who buried his village, the neighboring villages, and almost his entire race. Ever meet anyone from Rwanda, and sit down and talk to them about what went on there?

You don't see me acting tough here, because I'm not tough. I'm not the one who had to walk through the fire, scars aside. I wasn't there digging mass graves for 10,000 people a day.

So yeah, It's out there, and if you're lucky, more than you will ever know. Last time I was out there, I spent 9 hours with a loaded machine gun pointed at my head, and a guy who spoke no English at all with his finger on the trigger. 9 hours to convince him not to kill me. I really need to learn me some more languages.

But I do have a good idea of what's out there. It's a sad commentary on our world view that the statistically most likely reason to have a gun to your head in this country is that the hand holding that weapon is your own.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 5:00 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The greatest lesson I learned from my years in Kung Fu school was that the more I learned, the less likely I was to need violence to solve my problems.
My Kung Fu training was like a major boost to my immune system against violence.

HK, were we friends, in another life, back in China in the Shaolin Temple?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, August 24, 2009 5:05 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Last time I was out there, I spent 9 hours with a loaded machine gun pointed at my head, and a guy who spoke no English at all with his finger on the trigger. 9 hours to convince him not to kill me.

Really? I mean, seriously?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, August 24, 2009 6:09 PM

DREAMTROVE

Yeah, Chris, really. And there's a long list of stories I don't tell...

But it's true. The things that people i've worked with have seen are so bone chilling that nothing I've been through can compare, exceptin' maybe being ripped in half. But hell, Frem's war story list is far longer i'm sure. Under that cute tough guy facade is a fuzzy lil kitten, and under that fuzzy little kitten is a history so harsh that is really trying not to laugh at the rest of us so hard it ain't funny.

One of the guys in Yugoslavia, Alesh, told me that he burried his comrades by the truckload.. literally. You had to dig a huge ditch and scoop the bodies in because you had to be ready for son of bitch slobodan milosevic on the next round.

I know guys who fought on all sides of that one, who can sit down at a table and talk out their differences, and not say "you motherfuckers killed my family" and that's very real. Imagine the situation. No whining, no mulling over their poor tortured past, just sitting down with their unresolved conflicts. All water, blood, under the bridge.

This is religion, at it's finest, armed by you know who, financed by you know who, and they picked the most gullible angry young men they could and got them all fired up to fight the big bad. The christian militias and mujahideen, call 'em al qaeda if you want, it's fair, but there wasn't a dime's difference between them.

So, sure, some gangster mowed down a friend of mine a while back, I posted it. But I still hold that's a fucking dumb way to go.

So you want to know why I get into it on the 2a sometimes? These guys are committing suicide. America is full of guns, I posted when that crackhead shot at me in chicago back in 07. This is America's war: Over nothing. The above mentioned guy went to challenge some drug dealer who had shorted him on a deal. Really? You're going to die because someone ripped you off and didn't give you enough self destructive substance, hell you were committing suicide by making the purchase in the first place.

Wanna know what I see? A bunch of suckers who are being talked into the same idea.

People talk as if the big bad is coming. Oh, give me a break. You want to meet the big bad? I can draw you a map.

IMHO? The best defense when it all comes down: Don't be there. Be somewhere it ain't happening, because really, it doesn't matter if you get the bear or the bear gets you, you're going to be digging that massive trench to bury your own.

Okay, maybe that wasn't a coherent argument, but you get the idea. I just try not to take people and bop them over the head and say they need a reality check, but when someone decides to pick me up and bop me over the head and tell me I need a reality check, I'm going to let 'em have it, which I don't do very often.

Wulf,

Reality check. I don't know your story, but I suggest you stop ruminating on it and move on. I was just talking to my neighbor, he fought in three wars by the time he was 20, just as a guy on the ground, with a gun, real wars. Doesn't bug him either. He doesn't really think about it much. He's pretty happy to be in America right now, where things are relatively peaceful.

None of these people I talk about will even mention this stuff in casual conversation, if you don't ask them about it, you'd never know. They're all pretty calm folk, focused on the future. They can't do anything about the past. They grew up and moved on.

Want to deal with real problems? Look at what's ahead: I met a Tutsi girl, she said when the militia came to her village, she fled into the forest, she ran for three days straight. When things calmed down, she went back to her village. Everyone was dead. That's the past. Fast forward to today. The same militias are now cutting down the forest, extincting millions of species so they can pay back the international loans they took out to get all the weapons to slaughter 8.1 million people including 7.7 million Tutsis, and also, to make sure that in the future there is nowhere for anyone to hide.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Do individuals/citizens of America, have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

Yep.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Sorry bout that, finding a fellow blackheart, much less one alive and functional kinda set off a mental meltdown.

Beyond the essentials, I am no more willing to discuss it in detail than I am my personal theology, but generally the process is thus.

Person is born with a certain set of predispositions and innate traits which combine to direct their development in a certain direction regardless of environment or stimulus.

Something during puberty triggers the complex causing a cascade failure of assumptions and radical personality evolution.

And soon thereafter, they die.

Suicide tends to claim those that violence doesn't, through a combination of what-have-I-done and realizing they will never truly be welcomed or even accepted by the society they live in - the rare few that do survive, almost without exception wind up reclusive and misanthropic.

Thirty years of research, and what we know wouldn't fill a thimble, but this much is true - the reason so many are lost to violence is cause the ONLY way to stop a Blackheart is to kill them, and that takes a measure of doing.

What set me to the meltdown though, is just how few of that amazingly tiny minority make the choice to even try to be decent and humane, most wind up like Carl Panzram, waging an all out war against a society that created, then rejected them.

I've never, not till now, met a single other that chose that route, and to even know another HAS, is a priceless gift in light of watching the few others with so much potential destroy almost inevitably destroy themselves.

As for the rest of it...

One realization I came to a bit late to do me any real good is that violence harms the person committing it as well as the one receiving it - a hammer is real good at pounding nails, but if you look close, the hammer takes damage too, although less of it.

And everyones horror is personal, it shouldn't never EVER be a pissing contest cause frankly I would rather others have never experienced it in the first place, denigriating them for not doing so is one of the basest insults to our very humanity one can commit - one reason I am sparing of details concerning some things is that there really are things in this world just the KNOWING of can hurt you, chase you screaming down the corridors of your own consciousness in the darkest hours of the night when you're all alone, the world goes quiet and all you can hear are the echos of the screams...

To wish that on someone, force it upon them, or even mock them for not suffering it is a vile act, unworthy of anything but the deepest scorn.

And far as guns go...

It's an object, a thing, a tool - sure, used right and well it can protect you, but it can't watch your back, carry your wounded ass to cover, reload for you - the object, the thing, isn't the force that matters, YOU are, and that between your ears, besides which, people are the best force multipliers there are, even ones some may cast scorn against for not being comfortable with violence.

Hell, my loader* was something of an abject pacifist, for which he took no END of shit, and wound up stuck on me in hopes I would either choke it out of him or my nihilistic insanity would rub off, which was wasted effort cause they didn't even know what the actual cause of it was to begin with.

So WHAT if he was unwilling to fight, he could keep the ammo comin, carried his share of it, and could dig a hasty with great alacrity - in fact, as I began to recover from what was making me crazy I started using his good sense as a brake on my own brazen rage (you'll note I don't use the word courage, cause it ain't no such damn thing) and much to the surprise and ire of command, never said a word against him.

If I got a choice between a weapon and an ally, I'll pick the ally - more useful, and an ally WITH a weapon, hooboy, that's like a second gun that wields itself, innit ?

Think beyond the tool, lest you be considered one.

-Frem

*Note: I carried a full size, crew served M-60A1 with a friggin AA barrel on it, a regular monster of a weapon which due to poor construction and metallurgy, not only required constant 'maintainence' with a roll of bailing wire and duct tape, but also had this little problem of runaway fire...

Only a stone lunatic would haul that monster around, but since the primary threat to supply units like ours in the cold war era was soviet BMPs, and the M72A2 LAW was all but useless in the field (not like we HAD any), I wanted something capable of holing the damned things before they unassed their infantry on us, much less came rampaging through with that crummy little cannon - and all we had that even might do it was that monster and half a belt of black-tip (theoretically AP) ammunition.

Given the "reliability" of the M16A1 at the time, it was a no brainer, especially since it apparently didn't much occur to the rest of the unit that right after the fair haired boys secure the zone, backwater reserve supply units are the first guys they ship in, and what happened to the 507th Maitainence company via equipment failure and the wonderful "reliability" of the M16/M4 weapons platform is a perfect demonstration of WHY I wanted something that would actually go bang when I pulled the trigger, and could stand off most threats while we sat around waiting, and waiting, and waiting, for any kind of support.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA

DT:

I see your through the mirror of time pic and raise you one of my own, furry kitten reference included.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

[Conan's Father: The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.
[Points to sword]
Conan's Father: THIS you can trust.]

Yeah, I learned right and wrong from movies, T.V. and comic books. Sue me.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Wasn't the riddle of steel that the strength was all in the hand that wields it?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 3:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA

*stares right at Wulfie*
"For who is your father if it is not me?"

He was right though, flesh *is* stronger than steel, because steel, having no will of it's own, is merely a tool.

For all that Conan venerated steel, it wasn't steel that saved his ass, it was his friends, first the old wizard Akiro, and then (even after her death) Valeria.

And yet, human will, the drive of the human spirit, is stronger than flesh OR steel, and there is no power even in the spiritual realm stronger or more unassailable than Mercy.

Conan learns this - slaughtering Dooms followers would accomplish NOTHING, but freeing them...

You can kill a man, you can break a weapon, but you can't take away a good deed, a persons love, or knowledge and mercy freely given.

-F

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:42 PM

DREAMTROVE

What? Did the IQ Faerie just boost this forum 100 points? Maybe some moron vacuum took a vacation and we suddenly woke up ;)

Frem,

Ack. I don't know how much to respond to here. I have more answers here, I can give you some of these, that I know, and tell you what I don't.

The description you give could describe myself very very well, and yet in many ways I came out very different, in many other ways very similar.

Country mouse/city mouse? I wouldn't underestimate the impact this has on the differences in result. I travel a lot also, and frequently have my assumptions challenged. I expect that to happen more in the future.

I think I better write an email on this one

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