REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Voters steer Europe to the right

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Friday, June 26, 2009 07:01
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 16358
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Monday, June 8, 2009 3:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Centre-right parties have done well in elections to the European Parliament at the expense of the left.

Far-right and anti-immigration parties also made gains, as turnout figures plunged to 43% - the lowest since direct elections began 30 years ago.

The UK Labour Party, Germany's Social Democrats and France's Socialist Party were heading for historic defeats.

The centre-right European People's Party (EPP) looks set to continue to hold power in the parliament.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8088309.stm

Be interesting to see the analysis of this - as to why Europeans are rejecting the socialist platform.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 8, 2009 6:01 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I think in tough economic times people generally move to the extremes, and since marxism is no longer a credible solution people are being drawn more to the far-right (putting blame on immigrants etc.).

That's the case in the UK anyway, I'd say - the centre-right conservative party didn't make any substantial gains, but we have our first fascist MEPs now. Yay.

Heads should roll

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Monday, June 8, 2009 6:02 AM

CITIZEN


Labour is probably Centre-Right if anything.

I wouldn't be expecting a loss of socialist programs like healthcare though, they work far too well.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 7:01 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
(putting blame on immigrants etc.).

I recall in Saarland Germany in the 90's there existed extreme predjuce against near easterners, most specifically Turks. If you went into a McDonalds in Saarbruken, you'd see anglos manning the front counter and Turks cooking in the back, placed specifically out of sight. I remember thinking it felt the same way mexicans are sometimes treated stateside, doing the dirty work nobody wants and doing it out of sight.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 10:24 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Far more intriguing however is this result http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/06/08/swedish_pirate_party/index.h
tml?source=rss&aim=/tech/htww
Swedish Pirate Party FTW!

David

'Begone, sugar-free candy antichrist!' - Nathan Rabin.

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Monday, June 8, 2009 11:28 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Far more intriguing however is this result http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/06/08/swedish_pirate_party/index.h
tml?source=rss&aim=/tech/htww
Swedish Pirate Party FTW!

David

'Begone, sugar-free candy antichrist!' - Nathan Rabin.

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

Pirate Party! That'll make Pirate News happy!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 3:58 AM

FIVVER


Quote:

I wouldn't be expecting a loss of socialist programs like healthcare though, they work far too well.



Quote:

A stroke patient has died after an ambulance driver allegedly refused to work beyond his shift and clocked off part-way through a 999 journey.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5468213/Stroke-patient-di
es-after-ambulance-driver-clocks-off.html


Far too well indeed.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:06 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:
Quote:

I wouldn't be expecting a loss of socialist programs like healthcare though, they work far too well.



Quote:

A stroke patient has died after an ambulance driver allegedly refused to work beyond his shift and clocked off part-way through a 999 journey.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5468213/Stroke-patient-di
es-after-ambulance-driver-clocks-off.html


Far too well indeed.


A single anecdote disputes that Public healthcare systems far outperform private only? Nope.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:15 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:35 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.


Well sure, if you live in the American far rights imagination, for everyone else in the real world that's still no where near the truth.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:17 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.


Well sure, if you live in the American far rights imagination, for everyone else in the real world that's still no where near the truth.


Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment. People from all over the world go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota for the finest care. The examples are endless, but of course you live in a world of denial of reality. You must be just enomored with your British ducts. Ducts for everything. Ducts, ducts, and more ducts. British Parliamentarians rail against their broken and inferior socialized health system, and warn America to stay away from it. All the top professionals leave Europe and come to America. Some stay to fix your ducts of course. How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit. Damn good whistlers though.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:38 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Only a pathetic, grumpy ostrich like you could make that statement.


It's funny how when people lose the argument they start becoming personally insulting.
Quote:

The examples are endless, but of course you live in a world of denial of reality.

Ahh, the rubber-glue defence.
Quote:


British Parliamentarians rail against their broken and inferior socialized health system, and warn America to stay away from it.


Talking of denial and delusion, Jong you've got both in spades.
Quote:

Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment.

Because some people don't get it the first time around:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
A single anecdote disputes that Public healthcare systems far outperform private only? Nope.



Quote:

You must be just enomored with your British ducts. Ducts for everything. Ducts, ducts, and more ducts.

You must be too enamoured with your American softly softly eugenics. Poor, racial minority? Then Jongs wants you to die.
Quote:

How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit.

Hows the mental health service over there? Clearly not very good since instead of giving those poor people treatment, they keep coming and posting here...

The 'superior' US healthcare system at work:
Quote:

Everyone "in the know" knows that if they, or a loved one, gets diagnosed with Cancer, that it's time to get their Passport out of the safety deposit box, and start checking with those who keep track, to find out just exactly where to go, right now, for the best Cancer cure. For, if you stay in the US, and take the conventional variety of Cancer treatment, your chances of survival are slim to none.

The conventional US Cancer community is a murderous rip-off that generates shiploads of money. It provides the most horrible death imaginable, with the most suffering, the least hope, and the highest price paid. Europe, Asia, Mexico, the Islands, Central America all offer solutions that work.

In most of the US, all that's available of any real use is "underground," provided by practitioners under constant threat of law enforcement raid, for plying those things that work.


http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article065.htm

Quote:

The United States healthcare system just received another failing grade. In a Commonwealth Fund study released Jan.8, researchers ranked the U.S. healthcare system as the worst among 19 industrialized countries.

The study considered preventable deaths due to treatable conditions before age 75. The number of deaths is affected directly by improvements in health care and living conditions. In the United States, the death rate is 109.7 deaths per 100,000 people. Preventable deaths accounted for 23 percent of all deaths for men and 32 percent for women. That is 101,000 deaths each year.

The fact that 47 million people in the United States are uninsured and the vast majority of the 250 million insured are underinsured is a crime. The U.S. ruling class does not care about providing affordable, adequate health care for workers. It only wants to make a profit the working-class’s expense.


http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=144&a=4835

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Citizen is now PN in training, cukoo as an Arcturian dogbird.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:00 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.


Well sure, if you live in the American far rights imagination, for everyone else in the real world that's still no where near the truth.


Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment. People from all over the world go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota for the finest care. The examples are endless, but of course you live in a world of denial of reality. You must be just enomored with your British ducts. Ducts for everything. Ducts, ducts, and more ducts. British Parliamentarians rail against their broken and inferior socialized health system, and warn America to stay away from it. All the top professionals leave Europe and come to America. Some stay to fix your ducts of course. How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit. Damn good whistlers though.




Your example are of people who can afford American healthcare, but as I understand it most people cannot....



" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:07 AM

JONGSSTRAW


If you get a good job, you get healthcare. You get a good job by studying in school. I went to Motor Vehicles yesterday to renew my driver's license....a throwback to the 1840's, a nightmare, a glimpse at Govt-run Healthcare, or Govt-run anything. You want to be part of the lowest common denominator? Fine....Not me. You get what you pay for in this world, unless you're a Communist. Then you get next to nothing, and are grateful to get even that.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If you get a good job, you get healthcare. You get a good job by studying in school. I went to Motor Vehicles yesterday to renew my driver's license....a throwback to the 1840's, a nightmare, a glimpse at Govt. run Healthcare, or Govt-run anything. You want to be part of the lowest common denominator? Fine....Not me. You get what you pay for in this world, unless you're a Communist. Then you get next to nothing, and are grateful to get even that.



Studying in school? What school? I *KNOW* you can't be talking about public school, because by all accounts from the right, public education is a failure and just doesn't work. Ergo, no one who ever got an education at a public school can ever by considered "educated", so can never be eligible for one of those vaunted "good jobs" you seem to think are so common. Also, if anyone DID get educated in a public school, they really should be more gracious and grateful for the benefits a socialized, government-run education system granted them.

You also mention the parliamentarians allegedly ranting about socialized medicine's ills as if that proves your point. If I can point to a US congressperson ranting about the ills of a privately-run for-profit healthcare system, will you accept it as proof that our system doesn't work and should never be used for anything?

I went to my doctor a couple months ago. I had an appointment, which means I had to wait more than a week from when I called to finally get in. I have insurance, so they KNOW they are going to get paid to see me. Still, once I got there on time for my appointment (which I'd made more than a week earlier, mind you), I still had to wait over an hour.

Funny thing... even with all its "1840s" technology, that's just never happened to me at the DMV. I've never had to make an apppointment weeks in advance of renewing my license, and I've never had to wait more than an hour to do so when I just show up and drop in unannounced.

How do you suppose they can pull that off, when my doctor can't, even though I'm paying over $6000.00 per year for my insurance?

Also, for all those congresspeople who DO rant about "socialized medicine", I wonder how many of them are willing to give up their socialized coverage (we the taxpayers are paying for it, or subsidizing over 75% of the cost of it, and it's top-notch coverage, you can be sure) and go out in the "free market" and pay for their own insurance out of their own pockets like they want all of us "little people" to do.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW


In Cuba you get a free can of Russian-packed octopus when your lottery number comes up to see a doctor. Hope you like octopus.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Also, Jongs, you claim that people from all over the world are pouring into the US for healthcare. It's kinda funny, because people from all over the U.S. are pouring into India for AFFORDABLE healthcare, because they can't afford the procedures their "insurance" won't pay for here, but they can get better care for about 20% of the cost if they go to India for it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
In Cuba you get a free can of Russian-packed octopus when your lottery number comes up to see a doctor. Hope you like octopus.



In America you don't even get that.

And in Soviet Union, octopus gets YOU.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 8:10 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
In Cuba you get a free can of Russian-packed octopus when your lottery number comes up to see a doctor. Hope you like octopus.



In America you don't even get that.

And in Soviet Union, octopus gets YOU.


Wash is the funny one.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 8:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Far too well indeed.
Because ours works so well....

WAITING ROOM DEATHS
Quote:

NEW YORK - A man rushed to a Brooklyn hospital in diabetic shock died when he was ignored for seven hours in the emergency room, his furious family claims in a lawsuit. Todd Johnson, 42, twice tried to leave Interfaith Hospital to get help elsewhere, only to collapse outside and be carried back to the ER by security guards, his relatives say.

http://nuttynewswire.com/?va=10192
Quote:

KINGS COUNTY (WABC) -- New York City hospital officials promised reforms at a Brooklyn psychiatric ward where surveillance footage captured a woman falling from her chair, writhing on the floor and dying as workers watched without helping for an hour. Esmin Green, 49, had been waiting in the emergency room at the city-owned Kings County Hospital Center for nearly 24 hours when she toppled from her seat at 5:32 a.m. on June 19, falling face down on the floor.
She was dead by 6:35, when someone on the medical staff, flagged down by a person in the waiting room, finally approached, nudged Green with her foot, and gently prodded her shoulder, as if to wake her. The staffer then left and returned with someone wearing a white lab coat who examined her and summoned help.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6237821

PATIENT DUMPING
Quote:

The Los Angeles city attorney's office filed false-imprisonment and dependent-care-endangerment charges against hospital giant Kaiser Permanente on Wednesday, the first criminal prosecution of a medical center accused of "dumping" patients on skid row. The charges stem from an incident earlier this year when a 63-year-old patient from Kaiser Permanente's Bellflower hospital was videotaped as she left a taxi in gown and socks, and then wandered skid row streets.
www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dumping16nov16,0,3911487.story

Quote:

The investigation uncovered evidence that vans dispatched by the College Hospital chain left as many as 150 mentally ill patients on skid row in the last two years

www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-dumping10-2009apr10,0,32
97646.story


INSURANCE RESCISSION
Quote:

The LA Times reports that Health Net, one of the largest Health insurers in California has been found to have breached their contract and displayed bad faith to the tune of $9 Million bucks.
Health Net ordered to pay $9 million after canceling cancer patient’s policy.

www.ravinglunacy.org/index.php/2008/02/24/rescission-health-insurance-
and-universal-health-care
/

It's always possible to find anecdotes about one thing or another. But if you want the REAL story... and I'm not sure that you do... you have to look at statistics like infant mortality, lifespan, disability etc. By all measures, "socialized" health care is better health care.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:06 AM

FIVVER


Keep drinking your Koolaid Siggy:

Quote:

Overall, according to a study published in Lancet Oncology last year, five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada. Based on data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health (done by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics), Americans have greater access to preventive screening tests and have higher treatment rates for chronic illnesses. No wonder: To limit the growth in health spending, governments restrict the supply of health care by rationing it through waiting. The same survey data show, as June and Paul O'Neill note in a paper published in 2007 in the Forum for Health Economics & Policy, that the poor under socialized medicine seem to be less healthy relative to the nonpoor than their American counterparts.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451570546396929.html

Don't knock India:

Quote:

Doctors say they are moving to India because of its economy, state of the art equipment, higher standards than the NHS and a better quality of life. In particular, they say hospitals in India, which many Britons still imagine to be impoverished and dirty, suffer less from hospital-acquired infections such as MRSA.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3056942.
ece


I'm constantly amazed by folks who are so greedy the that only thing they want out a health care system is for somebody else to pay for theirs.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Thanks for posting Signy! Your crazy spice always makes the stew more flavorable. MMmm Good!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:20 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Citizen is now PN in training, cukoo as an Arcturian dogbird.


Jongstraw confirms I'm right, and confirms he's not man enough to admit it

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:21 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.


Well sure, if you live in the American far rights imagination, for everyone else in the real world that's still no where near the truth.


Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment. People from all over the world go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota for the finest care. The examples are endless, but of course you live in a world of denial of reality. You must be just enomored with your British ducts. Ducts for everything. Ducts, ducts, and more ducts. British Parliamentarians rail against their broken and inferior socialized health system, and warn America to stay away from it. All the top professionals leave Europe and come to America. Some stay to fix your ducts of course. How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit. Damn good whistlers though.

Every single person that you have mentioned has the possession of one important thing---MONEY, and shit loads of it.I would much rather be in a country whereby a pauper can have his life saved and be treated the same as the next man, than in a system where if you cant afford the fucking bed then you just die. And another thing, all of these people will naturally want to go back to America for their treatment because they will feel more comfortable at home. And as for our teeth, mine are fine, thank you.Us Brits of course are slightly less fussed about our superficial appearances.And I think you are proving to be somewhat superficial.!!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:22 AM

CITIZEN


One wonders why so many people come from India to the UK for treatment then.
Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:
I'm constantly amazed by folks who are so greedy the that only thing they want out a health care system is for somebody else to pay for theirs.


I'm constantly amazed by folks who are so selfish that the only thing they want out of a health care system is the death of poor people.

And they say Eugenics is dead...

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:23 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Right about what retard? That yer a nasty idiot? Yes I'm right. I admit it!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:29 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Right about what retard? That yer a nasty idiot? Yes I'm right. I admit it! Now you can go piss off. Sorry Auraptor aint here to give you what you want and need.


It's amazing Jong, that you scream and shout and spit about how I'm this and that, provide no evidence to back your crazy troll claims, but actually prove them of yourself. Well, actually what's amazing is that you're not intelligent enough to realise you're doing it...

You prove me right every time you throw an immature temper tantrum because you can't get your own way.

I get it, you're such an authoritarian nut you need to silence all dissenting opinions, preferably with violence, I'm sorry but screaming like an ignorant brainless troll doesn't make up for your inability to make a logical argument, or think for yourself.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yes, socialized medicine is the best system. After all, don't people with money always fly to Europe to get the best care from the top doctors and surgeons? Ooops, that's America they go to, with its' antiquated private medical care system....sorry, never mind.


Well sure, if you live in the American far rights imagination, for everyone else in the real world that's still no where near the truth.


Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment. People from all over the world go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota for the finest care. The examples are endless, but of course you live in a world of denial of reality. You must be just enomored with your British ducts. Ducts for everything. Ducts, ducts, and more ducts. British Parliamentarians rail against their broken and inferior socialized health system, and warn America to stay away from it. All the top professionals leave Europe and come to America. Some stay to fix your ducts of course. How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit. Damn good whistlers though.

Every single person that you have mentioned has the possession of one important thing---MONEY, and shit loads of it.I would much rather be in a country whereby a pauper can have his life saved and be treated the same as the next man, than in a system where if you cant afford the fucking bed then you just die. And another thing, all of these people will naturally want to go back to America for their treatment because they will feel more comfortable at home. And as for our teeth, mine are fine, thank you.Us Brits of course are slightly less fussed about our superficial appearances.And I think you are proving to be somewhat superficial.!!


C'mon, give me a big smile and let me see those chompers! I'm sure you look mahvelous dearie. Post a pic for humanity.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Right about what retard? That yer a nasty idiot? Yes I'm right. I admit it! Now you can go piss off. Sorry Auraptor aint here to give you what you want and need.


It's amazing Jong, that you scream and shout and spit about how I'm this and that, provide no evidence to back your crazy troll claims, but actually prove them of yourself.

You prove me right every time you throw an immature temper tantrum because you can't get your own way.

I get it, you're such an authoritarian nut you need to silence all dissenting opinions, preferably with violence, I'm sorry but screaming like an ignorant brainless troll doesn't make up for your inability to make a logical argument, or think for yourself.


Ha Ha Ha! You Brits and your funny ways! LOL!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:34 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Liam Neeson rushed his dying wife to NYC from Canada. Johnny Depp rushed his sick daughter out of France back to America for treatment. People from all over the world go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota for the finest care.

Indeed these are true facts but you cannot expect to demonstrate them to someone like Citizen without a deriding scoff in return. Submit a debate like this one from 2007 by Grant Shapps in the British house of commons and there can be little he can logically say in return: (though I'm sure he will certainly try)



To quote his best point about the rot inside british social health care:
What I really want to say is that the accountability within the health service is one of the great problems despite the amount of money going in. And we've all, I suspect in this house, experienced the problem whereby you take an issue on behalf of a constituent to the accute health trust. They tell you that it's not them, but the primary care trust that's responsible. So you take it to them, only to be told that it's actually being dealt with by the strategic health authority, now a regional body. You take it to the strategic health authority only to be told that it's really not a matter that they can deal with and that the secretary of state needs to intervene. At which point you write or contact the secretary of state for help, who tells you that it's a matter for the local health economy, and you've gone 'round in a huge circle. And it's very difficult in a system which almost deliberately seems to go out of it's way in order to cause that confusion, to ever pin down and find anybody who is accountable for what's happening locally.

Now insert the opposition debate, which attempts to draw out one singular example of a social health success, but cannot address the overarching rot.

This is the result of a governmental run....anything. According to him at 5:01 in the vid, it takes 5 years wait time in Liverpool to upgrade a hearing aid. WTF? And he describes a kemotherapy unit being closed down due to buracracy at 2:39. Really? Closed down? I've never heard of any such thing happening in the US. Our hosptials are always getting bigger. Every hosptial I've ever been in within the states always has a core structure, with an addition...and another....and another...as the years go by and they keep adding on. But in Britian it sounds as if you'd be lucky outside London if a unit (like kemo) was even nearby. I've seen kemo firsthand, my grandfather died of liver cancer in the early 90's. The process made him horribly sick and weak. He could never have traveled miles for treatment. Thank god he lived (and died) in Indiana and not the UK.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:34 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ha Ha Ha! You Brits and your funny ways! LOL!


Ahh, does the far right lunatic not like being wrong. As someone who was 'educated' by the US public school system you should be used to that by now .

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:35 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Indeed these are true facts but you cannot expect to demonstrate them to someone like Citizen without a deriding scoff in return.


It can't be true, someone like you believes it's a fact, QED.

Point out that the US is worse than most of the developed world on healthcare, and all you'll get from people like bluesun are lies, half truths and misrepresentation of facts. It's always the same when people who can't think for themselves are faced with facts they don't want to hear.

But show that the US is behind dozens of nations in it's healthcare, while spending more, and Bluesun has no chance of coming up with a logical rebuttal (though he'll think he has):
Quote:

The U.S. has the highest infant mortality rate and lowest life expectancy rate for residents older than age 60 among almost two dozen industrialized nations worldwide, according to a report published Wednesday on the Web site of the journal Health Affairs, Gannett/Hattiesburg American reports (Wheeler, Gannett/Hattiesburg American, 9/20). For the report, researchers for the Commission on a High Performance Health System at the Commonwealth Fund examined 37 indicators of health outcomes, quality, access, equity and efficiency developed by the Institute of Medicine, HHS, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the National Committee for Quality Assurance and other experts. According to the report, the U.S. overall scored an average of 66 out of a possible 100 on the health indicators and did not score highest on any of the indicators (Carey, CQ HealthBeat, 9/20). The report finds that the U.S. spends twice as much on health care as other industrialized nations in relation to gross domestic product. In addition, the report finds that 61 million U.S. residents lacked health insurance or did not have adequate coverage in 2003 (Young, Bloomberg/Miami Herald, 9/21).

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/52488.php

It's Chemotherapy by the way.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ha Ha Ha! You Brits and your funny ways! LOL!


Ahh, does the far right lunatic not like being wrong. As someone who was 'educated' by the US public school system you should be used to that by now .


Far right? Who me? Sorry, you have me confused with Auraptor. So sorry he's not around to give you the time of day anymore, but I will continue to come here occasionally just to fuck with YOU, because you are truly a sad sack of bullshit and deserve it.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:43 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Far right? Who me?


Yep you. You prove it with every post.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Sorry, you have me confused with Auraptor.


You and he do sound alike, well except he has a better grasp of English.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
So sorry he's not around to give you the time of day anymore, but I will continue to come here occasionally just to fuck with you because you are truly a sad sack of bullshit.


QED.

Isn't now the time you're usually at your white supremacists meeting?

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Thanks for posting Signy! Your crazy spice always makes the stew more flavorable. MMmm Good!
Glad you like it. But they happen to be facts, so- you're the crazy one, not me.


----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I guess you haven't seen or you can't comprehend my posts that :

..Were all against waterboarding and torture.
..Support Gay rights.

So you are wrong again. You're just a fucking troublemaker looking for a fucking fight...Right?? Of course, you got nothing else goin on in your pathetic little life, and coming from the shithole where you do I can understand that. I pity you in your sad little kingdom.


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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Thanks for posting Signy! Your crazy spice always makes the stew more flavorable. MMmm Good!
Glad you like it. But they happen to be facts, so- you're the crazy one, not me.


----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy


No, yer the crazy one. Sorry, again. Next!

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:52 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ha Ha Ha! You Brits and your funny ways! LOL!


Ahh, does the far right lunatic not like being wrong. As someone who was 'educated' by the US public school system you should be used to that by now .


Far right? Who me? Sorry, you have me confused with Auraptor. So sorry he's not around to give you the time of day anymore, but I will continue to come here occasionally just to fuck with YOU, because you are truly a sad sack of bullshit and deserve it.

I'm all for fighting one's corner and sticking up for the home team. And I have no problem with being proved wrong.But I,m with Citizen on this one. Even if you have a totally valid point, the minute you start to get abusive and inarticulate, is the minute that not one person will take you seriously, unless of course they are also inarticulate idiots.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:56 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Oh blow it out your bloomin' arse. You jump in the sewer, don't cry if you get some shit upon your blouse.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:58 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Oh blow it out your bloomin' arse. You jump in the sewer, don't cry if you get some shit upon your blouse.

Thank you for proving my point.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:00 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I guess you haven't seen or you can't comprehend my posts that :

..Were all against waterboarding and torture.
..Support Gay rights.


I've also seen your posts wanting to kill or silence anyone that disagrees with you. I really don't care what rare topics you act like a human being on to make yourself feel better about your more constant fascist tendencies.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
So you are wrong again.


No, I'm right, it's just that I'm not delusional as you are.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You're just a fucking troublemaker looking for a fucking fight...Right?? Of course, you got nothing else goin on in your pathetic little life, and coming from the shithole where you do I can understand that. I pity you in your sad little kingdom.


Yes, I'm the one who has just been causing trouble. Like for instance where I admitted my big reason for being here was to cause trouble:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
but I will continue to come here occasionally just to fuck with YOU, because you are truly a sad sack of bullshit and deserve it.


Oh no, wait that was you. Ok, maybe it was when I started spouting personal insults for no reason?
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Right about what retard? That yer a nasty idiot? Yes I'm right. I admit it!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thanks for posting Signy! Your crazy spice always makes the stew more flavorable. MMmm Good!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Citizen is now PN in training, cukoo as an Arcturian dogbird.


Oh, no wait, that was you too!

Ok, well it must have been when I started spouting nonsense racist, nationalist slurs, like some xenophobic troll?
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
How's that Dental Plan workin' out there? Not too good from what I can see of the average Brit. Damn good whistlers though.


Aww, shucks, that was you too. Guess you're talking about your trollish self again, and blaming others for your actions.

But then, never taking responsibility for your own actions and blaming others for them, that is a far right trait...

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What I really want to say is that the accountability within the health service is one of the great problems despite the amount of money going in.
Accountability???? How's this???
Quote:

The investors and operators were soon earning millions of dollars a year from their 49 homes. Residents fared less well. Over three years, 15 at Habana died from what their families contend was negligent care in lawsuits filed in state court. Regulators repeatedly warned the home that staff levels were below mandatory minimums. When regulators visited, they found malfunctioning fire doors, unhygienic kitchens and a resident using a leg brace that was broken. “They’ve created a hellhole,” said Vivian Hewitt, who sued Habana in 2004 when her mother died after a large bedsore became infected by feces. ... private investment companies have made it very difficult for plaintiffs to succeed in court and for regulators to levy chainwide fines by creating complex corporate structures that obscure who controls their nursing homes. ... The Byzantine structures established at homes owned by private investment firms also make it harder for regulators to know if one company is responsible for multiple centers. And the structures help managers bypass rules that require them to report when they, in effect, pay themselves from programs like Medicare and Medicaid. ... When Mrs. Hewitt sued Habana over her mother’s death, for example, she found that its owners and managers had spread control of Habana among 15 companies and five layers of firms.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/business/23nursing.html?_r=1&scp=5&s
q=nursing%20home&st=cse


Jongsy- Is this what you do when you have nothing to say?-
Quote:

No, yer the crazy one. Sorry, again. Next!
Oh, wow. THAT intelligent comment's gonna make me change my mind! (NOT! )


----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:14 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

What I really want to say is that the accountability within the health service is one of the great problems despite the amount of money going in.
Accountability???? How's this???
Quote:

The investors and operators were soon earning millions of dollars a year from their 49 homes. Residents fared less well. Over three years, 15 at Habana died from what their families contend was negligent care in lawsuits filed in state court. Regulators repeatedly warned the home that staff levels were below mandatory minimums. When regulators visited, they found malfunctioning fire doors, unhygienic kitchens and a resident using a leg brace that was broken. “They’ve created a hellhole,” said Vivian Hewitt, who sued Habana in 2004 when her mother died after a large bedsore became infected by feces. ... private investment companies have made it very difficult for plaintiffs to succeed in court and for regulators to levy chainwide fines by creating complex corporate structures that obscure who controls their nursing homes. ... The Byzantine structures established at homes owned by private investment firms also make it harder for regulators to know if one company is responsible for multiple centers. And the structures help managers bypass rules that require them to report when they, in effect, pay themselves from programs like Medicare and Medicaid. ... When Mrs. Hewitt sued Habana over her mother’s death, for example, she found that its owners and managers had spread control of Habana among 15 companies and five layers of firms.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/business/23nursing.html?_r=1&scp=5&s
q=nursing%20home&st=cse


Jongsy- Is this what you do when you have nothing to say?-
Quote:

No, yer the crazy one. Sorry, again. Next!
Oh, wow. THAT intelligent comment's gonna make me change my mind! (NOT! )


----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy


You've lost yer touch there Signy. I don't know what any of that above is 'cause I certainly never posted it. Your AuRaptor-withdrawl Syndrome is hitting you harder than I feared. Concentrate, this is just a moment in time, and yer stronger than that, so you can do it.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I don't know what any of that above is 'cause I certainly never posted it.
Er... Isn't it a little early to be hitting the sauce, Jongssy? Your post

JONGSSTRAW Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 09:52
Quote:

[
Quote:Thanks for posting Signy! Your crazy spice always makes the stew more flavorable. MMmm Good!

Glad you like it. But they happen to be facts, so-you're the crazy one, not me.

No, yer the crazy one. Sorry, again. Next!

Just scroll up...



----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:25 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
It's Chemotherapy by the way.

Indeed it is & I see that this is the best you can offer in rebuttal. Can you address the body of my post or Grant Shapps' speech to the house of commons?

Nope. Of course you cannot. You'll just offer up a link to talking points and cherry pick a spelling error. You have a great history of ignoring debate facts to offer an insult. How so very British of you. Heh, and here I thought you were Scottish.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Can you address the body of my post or Grant Shapps' speech to the house of commons?
I did. Try reading it.

Like I said, you can find anecdotes about this and that, and people griping about this and that, but if you want the full story (Do you?) you have to look at the stats. All you have to do is google up lifespan+eu + united states to find out that the USA is 30th. 30th!!

Behind Andorra, Japan, Singapore, San Marino, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, France (metropolitan), Switzerland, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Canada, Italy, Monaco, Liechtenstein, Spain, Norway, Israel, Greece, Austria, Malta, Netherlands, South Korea (SOUTH KOREA!) Luxembourg, New Zealand, Germany, Belgium, United Kingdom, European Union, Finland, Jordan (!!!), Puerto Rico ( US)(!!!), Bosnia and Herzegovina (), Bermuda ( UK) (BERMUDA????) and Saint Helena ( UK).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Really!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Indeed it is & I see that this is the best you can offer in rebuttal.


No, it's quite all right, I don't mind teaching you the difference between a hard Ch and a K in the English language. Maybe if you'd turned up to school once in awhile you'd have gotten it sooner, but we can't hope for miracles. Well, actually American public school, probably not...

Anyway, it's a hell of a lot better rebuttal than coming up with irrelevant data, lying and ignoring anything that disagrees with you, which is the best you managed.
Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Can you address the body of my post or Grant Shapps' speech to the house of commons?


Can you give me any reason why I need too? Can you show how it's in the least relevant to anything I said? Can you show how one guy in Parliament not liking the NHS disproves a god damn thing I said?

Nope. Of course you cannot. You'll just act like your red herring proves something, ignore all the facts that disprove you and insult people from the off.
Quote:

How so very British of you. Heh, and here I thought you were scottish.

Well, trolling instead of making an argument, presenting irrelevant things as damning and ignoring data that doesn't agree with you. How very authoritarian of you. Heh, and here you are always trying to tell us you're a libertarian.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I guess you haven't seen or you can't comprehend my posts that :

..Were all against waterboarding and torture.
..Support Gay rights.

So you are wrong again. You're just a fucking troublemaker looking for a fucking fight...Right?? Of course, you got nothing else goin on in your pathetic little life, and coming from the shithole where you do I can understand that. I pity you in your sad little kingdom.




It quite sounds like YOU are looking for a fight, what with all the name-calling and personal insults the moment anyone has the gall to disagree with your propaganda. Are you SURE you aren't really AwwCrapper in disguise?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

You have a great history of ignoring debate facts to offer an insult. How so very British of you. Heh, and here I thought you were scottish.



Offering nothing but insult, you mean the way you just did right there?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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