REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Rule of the Hammer

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Saturday, June 6, 2009 08:17
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2389
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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


LR posted a most fascinated and well worded bit I wanted to share with you here.

http://www.larkenrose.com/tmds-blog/1850.html

EXCERPT
-------------
"Suppose I offered you the following "service": I will come to your
house, bringing with me a large rubber mallet, and I will hit you
on the head, at carefully chosen times, in order to improve your
life. If, for example, you are about to eat something I think is
unhealthy, you'll get a clonk on the noggin. If you're about to
spend money on an unwise investment, you'll get a whack in the
skull. Furthermore, I will wield my hammer to persuade you to give
to charity, engage in activities I deem useful, and do whatever
else I think is good for you and for society in general.

So, how much would you be willing to pay for such a "service"?
Well, I have one more thing about my "services" that I should
mention: I'm not going to give you a choice about whether you use
my "services" or not, or a choice about how much you will pay for
it. I will use my hammer to make you pay as much as I deem
necessary, for anything I say is worthwhile.

So, does that sound helpful? Do you think my "services" would be
likely to improve your life, or improve society as a whole? No?"


-F

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:15 AM

CHRISISALL


I've received that service many times in my life, sad to say.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Yeah but in YOUR case I doubt the Gov was the exclusive wielder...

Some days I'm glad I ain't married, especially what with a "situation" on my hands at the moment involving a girl who thinks imma shinto kami and wants to rectify that not-married problem no matter what it takes *eyeroll*.

It'd be more amusing if she wasn't competent and devoted enough to maybe get to try - although that does cause one to ponder the thought that if she's THAT good, maybe it's not such a bad idea...
I AM gonna run for my life if I spot any Miko around here though.

-F

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:11 AM

BADKARMA00


I gotta hand it to ya Frem, you do know just how to put things sometimes, lol. I like the analogy.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:14 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Suppose I offered you the following "service" ..."

Sounds like religion to me.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:27 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Suppose I offered you the following "service" ..."

Sounds like religion to me.



Close.... try again.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:31 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Suppose I offered you the following "service" ..."

Sounds like religion to me.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Nope, sounds like a meddling government, to me.

*********************************************
"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.

That little part.

***************************************************************

My guess is you'll have no rational response to that.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:54 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.



Not exactly. See, we don't have a unanimous consent government, it's majority rule. There's a near fifty percent chance you won't have that option at all.


EDIT: My mistake. We actually have plurality elections, meaning the chances are even greater that you won't have any say in who is swinging the hammer.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:56 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh - you mean the OTHER people who form the society aren't supposed to have a voice in how it's constituted. I get it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 8:59 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Oh - you mean the OTHER people who form the society aren't supposed to have a voice in how it's constituted. I get it.



I mean I don't want them to hit me in the head with a hammer. Then can 'constitute' however they like.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 9:08 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

It's OK. Captain Hammer will save us...


SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 9:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

-F

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Friday, June 5, 2009 10:15 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.

That little part.

***************************************************************

My guess is you'll have no rational response to that.



Well, I took it as Government as a WHOLE. Like trying to legislate and "hit you with the hammer" for doing something they deem unhealty (higher taxes for tobacco to hurt smokers, for example).

Edited to add:
Quote:

So, how much would you be willing to pay for such a "service"?
Well, I have one more thing about my "services" that I should
mention: I'm not going to give you a choice about whether you use
my "services" or not, or a choice about how much you will pay for
it. I will use my hammer to make you pay as much as I deem
necessary, for anything I say is worthwhile.


That sounded a heckuva lot like taxation to me. We don't always get a say in how our tax dollars are being spent.


*********************************************
"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 11:53 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I mean I don't want them to hit me in the head with a hammer."

When was the last time government hit you on the head with a hammer ? (My guess is 'never'.)

"Then (sic) can 'constitute' however they like."

And if you don't like it - you can always leave. Sounds fair to me.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 12:06 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I mean I don't want them to hit me in the head with a hammer."

When was the last time government hit you on the head with a hammer ? (My guess is 'never'.)


You guess wrong.

Quote:

And if you don't like it - you can always leave. Sounds fair to me.


Or else what? The hammer? Never quite got your sense of "fair".

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 12:12 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
It's OK. Captain Hammer will save us...


Yeah, baby.




The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 12:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Does anyone know if Castle is being renewed?

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, June 5, 2009 1:05 PM

SERGEANTX


Castle was renewed. So was Dollhouse.

In other news, Firefly wasn't.


SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 1:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Castle was renewed. So was Dollhouse.


Captain Hammer was not picked up, though.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 1:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I mean I don't want them to hit me in the head with a hammer."

When was the last time government hit you on the head with a hammer ?



April 15th?

When I wanted to go to a restaurant and get hash browns fried in lard?

When I tried to drive faster than 70 MPH on a completely empty interstate?

When I found a rifle I really liked in a gun store outside of the state I live in?

When I wanted a Cuban cigar?

If I wanted to go to Cuba to get a Cuban cigar?

When I had to have my MG Midget tossed for firearms before I could get to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls?

In a lot of places, when I wanted an alcoholic drink on Sunday?

When I wanted to see my cousin marry her partner before she died?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 1:48 PM

CHRISISALL


I always suspected that you were an anti-authoritarian commie-lib at heart, Geeze.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 1:58 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I always suspected that you were an anti-authoritarian commie-lib at heart, Geeze.



Sorry, but anti-authoritarian and Commie are mutually exclusive. Actually, anti-authoritarian and Liberal are probably pretty mutually exclusive as well. Then again, anti-authoritarian and Conservative (except maybe the old-line fiscal conservative types) are most likely mutually exclusive too.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 2:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Actually, anti-authoritarian and Liberal are probably pretty mutually exclusive as well.


Whoah, we may be on to something interesting here.

Tests I've taken show me to be a left leaning Libertarian. I'm commonly thought of as Liberal on this board. Yet I am RABIDLY anti-authoritarian. I believe the authoritarian mindset places "them" in a position above us- better than. But I also believe that if police have guns, the average (non-wacky/non-criminal) citizen should be allowed to pack as well.

So, where does that leave me?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 2:24 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You guess wrong."

A literal hammer - that's what you were talking about, right ? Has someone from the government come and hit you on your actual head with a literal hammer ? How many times ? When ? When was the last time ? (I'm still guessing never. And I'm still right.)

"Or else what? The hammer? Never quite got your sense of "fair"."

Let's see - YOU want to have all the bennies of society - language, families, communities, resources, technology, the combined efforts of untold people over time and space who have invented, gathered, husbanded, and passed on all the things that make your life possible, even comfortable. But when society as a whole decides that 'things will be done this way' YOU want to opt out at any time. While still getting all the bennies.

IF you decided to have your mind razed of all the things you've been taught, IF you put yourself out of reach of its benefits, then I'd say opting out would be fair - and you don't have to follow any of those stupid rules either.

A close second would be to just leave, and make it fair for everyone. Everyone who IS following the rules and making your comforts possible.

BTW, I said nothing about a hammer.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 2:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
you don't have to follow any of those stupid rules either.


Yeah, I hate those.
The ones that make sense, and were written for the actual common good, not so much.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 3:05 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"You guess wrong."

A literal hammer - that's what you were talking about, right ? Has someone from the government come and hit you on your actual head with a literal hammer ?



Wow... uh, so you're not familiar with figurative language? The story was a parable ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable) where the hammer represented the use of physical force to compel people to behave in a certain way.

Try reading the OP again, I think you're missing something.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 3:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sarge- Did someone make you eat spinach when you were young? 'Cause it seems like the moment rules come into the discussion, your back goes up. I have the distinct impression of a two-year-old saying Make me.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, June 5, 2009 3:46 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I have the distinct impression of a two-year-old saying Make me.


I don't know about the Sarge, but that certainly is MY reaction, Signy.
"Go to bed."
"But I'm not tired!"
"You have to."
"Why?"
"Because I say so!"
"That really answers my f*****g question, Dad."


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 5, 2009 5:09 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Let's see - YOU want to have all the bennies of society - language, families, communities, resources, technology, the combined efforts of untold people over time and space who have invented, gathered, husbanded, and passed on all the things that make your life possible, even comfortable. But when society as a whole decides that 'things will be done this way' YOU want to opt out at any time. While still getting all the bennies.



For me, it depends on what 'things will be done this way' consists of.

"We don't kill each other for no good reason". Fine with me.

"Don't take other people's stuff". Sounds good too.

"Blacks (or somebody) should be slaves" Not so much.

"Women can't vote or own property". Tempting, but no.

"Marriage is only between one man and one woman". Hardly seems fair.

"God doesn't want you to drink (or work, or have fun, or dance, or...) on Sunday, so we won't let you". Who's this God person and why do I care?

"You have no right to defend yourself against aggression". Thanks, but no thanks.

I suggest that I can fairly have all the bennies of society if I try my best to follow the Golden Rule and the Non-aggression Principle. If I do my best to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, and to not initiate force against anyone, I consider myself in pretty good shape as an individual.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 5:32 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Did someone make you eat spinach when you were young?



Yes they did... and I'm still pretty steamed about it too.

But yeah, they did make me eat spinach, Brussels sprouts too. And I'm glad they did. I've learned to enjoy both. My parents also taught me to think for myself.

Nanny state philosophy seems to make no distinction between the role of a parent and the role of the state, but I see them very differently. Children need the guidance and oversight of experienced guardians and benefit greatly from such an arrangement. Part of what it means to be an adult is that you no longer need that guidance and take responsibility for yourself. The right to do that, unfettered by those who presume to "know better", is fundamental to human dignity.



SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 6:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Nanny state philosophy seems to make no distinction between the role of a parent and the role of the state, but I see them very differently. Children need the guidance and oversight of experienced guardians and benefit greatly from such an arrangement. Part of what it means to be an adult is that you no longer need that guidance and take responsibility for yourself. The right to do that, unfettered by those who presume to "know better", is fundamental to human dignity.



But Sarge, what about those children who "need the guidance and oversight of experienced guardians" and absolutely aren't getting it? What do you do with them? Toss them aside, say "fuck it; not my problem" until they grow up to BE your - and society's - problem? Or do you get the "nanny state" to step in and either take the children away to place them in a "better" (and I use that word *very* loosely) or more appropriate environment? Do you rely on the "nanny state" to force the parents to be better parents?

It always kind of grinds my gears when children are taken away from parents who are obviously incapable of raising them and taking care of them, and then they're placed with the grandparents. I have to wonder, if the grandparents were worth a fuck as parents, wouldn't their own kids (the parents of the children in question) have turned out not to be such complete shits?

And yes, it would be NICE if everyone who had children were fundamentally equipped, willing, and able to care for them, but that's not the world we live in. To do that, you'd have to institute some kind of rules or tests to determine who gets to have children, and when. Talk about your nanny-state nightmare!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 6:30 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
But Sarge, what about those children who "need the guidance and oversight of experienced guardians" and absolutely aren't getting it?


That's an interesting question, but let's settle the straightforward issue first. Should we, as adults, have the right to decide for ourselves, or not?

Then we can sort out the more complicated concerns.



SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 6:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


To decide WHAT for ourselves?

Whether to have children, and when?

How to raise them?

Whether to kill the neighbor's yappy-ass little dog that they'll never put inside at night?

Whether to call the cops to report that yappy-ass dog's owner dead after he "broke into" your house?

What is it you want to decide for yourself, and who's stopping you?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:09 PM

SERGEANTX


Mike,

I read the parable in the OP as a question of whether we want to the government to provide us the "service" of making parental type decisions for us. To treat us as children, even though we are not. To figuratively hit us over the head with a hammer when we make a decision not approved of by the state (or the majority, as the case may be).

The rights of actual children is a different issue altogether. I'm certainly not arguing that parents should be allowed to abuse or neglect their children.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


See, Sarge, what I'm trying to get at is getting people to look at some of the DOWNSIDE of "free markets" and completely unregulated behavior, and where that ties in with the nanny state - or more precisely, what happens when you DON'T have any kind of nanny-state watchdogs looking over those market forces. Free-market supporters like to say that free markets are self-regulating, they take care of themselves and their customers, they are inherently good and positive. Some of that may be true of most free markets, but I'd like to point out one where it ISN'T good: Drugs.

Gangs, drug dealers, the mafia, Crips, Bloods, MS13, the Texas Syndicate, the Latin Kings, the Columbian cartels and the Mexican cartels, even the Taliban and Al Qaeda are now running wild in the "free market" of illegal drugs... Those are all unregulated free-market capitalist enterprises that absolutely don't believe in the nanny state. You sell what you want, you take what you can, you enforce your territory yourself, you compete with whatever means necessary, you take profits and losses, you provide a service - and if it's an illegal service, that's only because the nanny state made something illegal that shouldn't be any of their business.

They are self-regulating - someone steps out of their area, they get capped. You want to expand into someone else's area, you cap them and take their spot. Your supplier finds himself coming in second in a razor fight or tries to slow down a bullet with his neck, and someone else steps in to take your place with a newer and fresher supply. You're providing a service, and people will gladly line up and pay for your goods.

Why is it anyone's business to step in and try to control this via government intervention? Why should the nanny state be concerned at all? The only people being hurt knew the risks going in, right? If it makes entire areas uninhabitable, or open-air pharmacies, who cares? If it spreads until whole city centers resemble something out of a Heironymous Bosch painting, whose concern should that be?

So while free markets and no rules might SOUND great, when you start looking at the dark side of human behavior, you see that it's going to create some truly hellish places if it were really embraced.

Of course, there ARE some truly hellish places that already resemble what I described, but do you want to try to keep them in check, or let them spread and run their course? That's what you have to decide - what is society's duty and responsibility in cases where others simply won't fulfill THEIR duties or live up to THEIR responsibilities?

And please note, Sarge, that this is in no way intended as an attack or rebuttal to anything you've said. I simply brought it up because I've been watching too much of "The Wire" and it was on my mind, and this thread made me think of it again.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:13 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.



Ross Perot and Ron Paul both quit the presidential race after George Bush Sr promised to kill ther families. JFK Jr and his family were bombed in their plane before running for US Senate against Billary and for president in 2000. CIA agent Bush Sr was photographed in Dealey Plaza when JFK was assassinated. 3 of Bush Jr's presidential opponents were arrested and jailed for daring to attend presidential debates.

Vote fraud by private foreign contractors hacking their own electronic voting machines is not "democracy", it's fascism.

Sheeple pay between 50% and 100% tax in "developed" nations, at gunpoint. The US REvolutionary War was in protest of 3% taxation...

That's why we have fluoride in the water and mercury in vaccines and dental fillings. Tobacco smoke reduces violence, as proven by US soldiers in WW2, 80% whom refused to fire on enemies attacking them. Smoke is used by beekeepers to make bees docile when "robbing honey" from hives.

This week Hussein Obama reportedly changed the US symbol from an Eagle to a HAND. Without the hammer. That would be too obvious.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Mike,

I read the parable in the OP as a question of whether we want to the government to provide us the "service" of making parental type decisions for us. To treat us as children, even though we are not. To figuratively hit us over the head with a hammer when we make a decision not approved of by the state (or the majority, as the case may be).

The rights of actual children is a different issue altogether. I'm certainly not arguing that parents should be allowed to abuse or neglect their children.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"



Dang, now we're cross-posting!

Anyhow, I totally get your point, and I would NEVER imply that you condone child abuse or neglect. But the sticky parts of those subjects, and many others, lie in WHERE the lines are drawn. Is spanking a child considered abuse? What if a teacher does it? What if a cop does it? The broad strokes of society tend to be rather easy. "Murder is bad." "Puppies are good." "Children are cute." It's in the DETAILS that we get bogged down, and society often tried to err on the side of too much caution.

Here's something to think about and look for: Every time you see a warning label on anything, think to yourself that it's almost certainly there because someone got sued. I bought toothpicks, and they had not only a warning label ("Don't put in your eyes or ears."), but instructions. I'm thinking to myself, "If you don't know how to use a fucking toothpick, what are the odds you're buying toothpicks?"

So warnings are there because somebody got sued for doing something really stupid that nobody in their right mind would think of doing - or so the manufacturers thought. There's a very real tendency to throw up your hands and say that stupid people dying in very odd ways is just good entertainment for the rest of us, and they're doing the world a favor by taking their DNA out of the mix, but then you look at your 3-year-old niece and realize that once upon a time, before you knew everything, you knew almost NOTHING.

We can argue that we're too much a nanny state, but look back to the Wild West and the Old Frontier, and think about how long most people lived then, and how many children survived to adulthood.

Just trying to throw a little perspective on it from a direction you might not have considered.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Except for the part where you get the vote the people out who are supposedly ruling you.



Ross Perot and Ron Paul both quit the presidential race after George Bush Sr promised to kill ther families. JFK Jr and his family were bombed in their plane before running for US Senate against Billary and for president in 2000. CIA agent Bush Sr was photographed in Dealey Plaza when JFK was assassinated. 3 of Bush Jr's presidential opponents were arrested and jailed for daring to attend presidential debates.

Vote fraud by private foreign contractors hacking their own electronic voting machines is not "democracy", it's fascism.

Sheeple pay between 50% and 100% tax in "developed" nations, at gunpoint. The US REvolutionary War was in protest of 3% taxation...

That's why we have fluoride in the water and mercury in vaccines and dental fillings. Tobacco smoke reduces violence, as proven by US soldiers in WW2, 80% whom refused to fire on enemies attacking them. Smoke is used by beekeepers to make bees docile when "robbing honey" from hives.



Set phasers to "crazy"...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:28 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Gangs, drug dealers, the mafia, Crips, Bloods, MS13, the Texas Syndicate, the Latin Kings, the Columbian cartels and the Mexican cartels, even the Taliban and Al Qaeda are now running wild in the "free market" of illegal drugs...


Organized crime hardly represents a "free" market. It's quite the opposite. The idea of a free market is that all players are free to make their own decisions on what to buy, from whom, and for how much. A strict laissez faire interpretation still assumes the rule of law. (Even anarchists don't propose an economy that runs without rules, they just suggest it can happen without state government).

Quote:

I simply brought it up because I've been watching too much of "The Wire" and it was on my mind, and this thread made me think of it again.


Now you're tempting me to go on my anti-TV screed...

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 7:32 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Just trying to throw a little perspective on it from a direction you might not have considered.



Always appreciated.

Even when bitterly opposed.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, June 5, 2009 10:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually Sarge, The Wire carries my recommendation.

You see, it's a very damned accurate representation of the region that was my "world" for more than a decade - to an outright creepy degree.

The irony of it all is that often as not, the crooks and thugs are quite literally, from a localized point of view - the "Good Guys", offering protection to neighborhoods which would otherwise be victimized both by rival thugs AND the police.

That happens to be of particular irony at this point in time, as our client, Site Three, has named the local police dept as a security threat we are to give way to only under provisions of Force Majeure, and otherwise hinder them at any and every legal opportunity we can successfully do so.

We got hired in the first place to protect this site cause the local PD couldn't be bothered to do it, and now we find ourselves having to, at the best of our ability, protect it also FROM them.

Your tax dollars, at work.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Just trying to throw a little perspective on it from a direction you might not have considered.



Always appreciated.

Even when bitterly opposed.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"



Oh, indeed. We have our differences, but the gap between our views is more of a crack in the sidewalk than a gaping chasm. You're definitely one of the people in these parts with whom I enjoy discussing issues, because we actually get to have a conversation rather than a shouting match.

Quote:


Organized crime hardly represents a "free" market. It's quite the opposite. The idea of a free market is that all players are free to make their own decisions on what to buy, from whom, and for how much. A strict laissez faire interpretation still assumes the rule of law. (Even anarchists don't propose an economy that runs without rules, they just suggest it can happen without state government).



I wouldn't say that gangs operate without rules or without the rule of law, within their own confines and understandings of said rules. If anything, they tend to hew more closely to anarchic systems - there ARE rules, but they are more by gentleman's agreement than strict codification. And the "idea" of a free market is a long, long way from the reality of same. Ask anyone in a small town with only one supermarket (Walmart, for example) whether they have the "choice" of what to buy, from whom, and for how much. Sure, they can drive to another town if they want, but drug customers can always choose to go to another corner and buy different product from a different gang.

Quote:


Now you're tempting me to go on my anti-TV screed...



That's just never going to fly with me, seeing as we're all posting on a forum dedicated to a TV show. I'm not against TV, or the concept or idea of TV; I'm against BAD TV. The Wire is a long, LONG way from bad.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Actually Sarge, The Wire carries my recommendation.

You see, it's a very damned accurate representation of the region that was my "world" for more than a decade - to an outright creepy degree.

The irony of it all is that often as not, the crooks and thugs are quite literally, from a localized point of view - the "Good Guys", offering protection to neighborhoods which would otherwise be victimized both by rival thugs AND the police.



Funny, Frem - I was born in that area, too: Laurel, Maryland, 'bout midway between B-more and DC, when my dad was with NSA. Luckily for me, we were sent to Fort Ord in Monterey within a couple years, so I don't remember a thing about my birthplace.

And yeah, there are good crooks and bad cops in The Wire, and sometimes you find yourself rooting for either one. It's definitely not "feel-good TV", and it very much has a feel of authenticity - probably due to its creator, David Simon, having been a crime beat writer with the Baltimore Sun for some years, and his close working relationship with guys like Ed Burns and Jay Landsman, who were longtime B-more cops and homicide detectives.

Landsman, in fact, is a fascinating guy, being both a character AND an actor in the show. His character is the sargeant of the homicide cops. The actual Jay Landsman plays another role, as Major Mello in a different squad. He was also the main inspiration for the character of Detective John Munch on Homicide: Life On The Street, a show that David Simon also wrote extensively for, which was also set in Baltimore and had a hard edge of truth to it.

If you ever get a chance to see David Simon's appearance on "Bill Moyers Journal" on PBS, check it out. It's astonishing, the breadth and depth of the man's understanding about "the big picture" issues and realities of the world today, and how he consciously tried to interweave them into his shows.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 2:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Gangs, drug dealers, the mafia, Crips, Bloods, MS13, the Texas Syndicate, the Latin Kings, the Columbian cartels and the Mexican cartels, even the Taliban and Al Qaeda are now running wild in the "free market" of illegal drugs...
They are self-regulating - someone steps out of their area, they get capped. You want to expand into someone else's area, you cap them and take their spot. Your supplier finds himself coming in second in a razor fight or tries to slow down a bullet with his neck, and someone else steps in to take your place with a newer and fresher supply.



And a lot of folks say the reason the drug business runs with all this violence is because the nanny-state DOES make it illegal. Consider the violence that Prohibition generated. Consider that with alcohol now legal for sale, you don't see the Jack Daniels distributors and the Jim Beam distributors shooting it out in the alleys. Consider how many folk get traumatized, injured or killed due to faulty no-knock warrants and cowboy swat teams. Consider how the jails are filled up with non-violent first offenders who are learning how to be criminals.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 3:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Keep posting s**t like that Geeze, and we'll never have another argument.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 4:03 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
And a lot of folks say the reason the drug business runs with all this violence is because the nanny-state DOES make it illegal. Consider the violence that Prohibition generated. Consider that with alcohol now legal for sale, you don't see the Jack Daniels distributors and the Jim Beam distributors shooting it out in the alleys. Consider how many folk get traumatized, injured or killed due to faulty no-knock warrants and cowboy swat teams. Consider how the jails are filled up with non-violent first offenders who are learning how to be criminals.


But then the Alcohol distribution and manufacturing network is also regulated and overseen by that "nanny state", in such it just as easily supports what Kwicko was saying.

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 4:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
But then the Alcohol distribution and manufacturing network is also regulated and overseen by that "nanny state", in such it just as easily supports what Kwicko was saying.



Not so much. Current Federal government regulation isn't in place to prevent anyone from buying and consuming alcohol (except minors), and the regulation and oversight is there mostly to collect tax revenue, not control social behavior. Less "nanny state" than revenue enhancement.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 4:50 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Not so much. Current Federal government regulation isn't in place to prevent anyone from buying and consuming alcohol (except minors), and the regulation and oversight is there mostly to collect tax revenue, not control social behavior. Less "nanny state" than revenue enhancement.


And control purity, safety etc. If some vinyard was putting anti-freeze in their wine, do you think your government or anyone else's would say "oh, well, as long as they're not breaking tax regulations"?

Of course there's controls of social behaviour, there's all sorts of laws about what companies can and can't do.

One of the big reasons given for legalising drugs is not because it's not on a 'free market' and would be, it's because with government over sight rather than prohibition, legal and regulated businesses would be supplying it.

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Saturday, June 6, 2009 5:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Cit,

The "nanny state" isn't referring to business regulation, at least not the kind you're referring to. When people bitch about the "nanny state" they're talking about laws which take a purely paternal stance, deciding what's good for us against our will.

So, let's try to stay focused. Are you in favor or such legislation? Should the state decide what sort of food is good for you? What sort of hobbies are too dangerous? What kind of books and movies are good for you, and which aren't? Which religion you should follow?

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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