REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The end of free content?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, May 8, 2009 19:30
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2214
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The internet has revolutionized the way we get information. All of that may come to a screeching halt, as news corporations seeks to make it a profit center.
Quote:

Speaking on a conference call as News Corporation announced a 47 percent slide in quarterly profits to $755 million, Murdoch said the current free access business model favored by most content providers was flawed.

"We are now in the midst of an epochal debate over the value of content and it is clear to many newspapers that the current model is malfunctioning," the News Corp. Chairman and CEO said.

"We have been at the forefront of that debate and you can confidently presume that we are leading the way in finding a model that maximizes revenues in return for our shareholders... The current days of the Internet will soon be over."

Once again, profit ruins a great idea.



----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:35 AM

STORYMARK


While I quite like my free info - let's be realistic here. How do these organizations continue to function without bringing in some money? Newspapers are dying off, mostly due to the internet, which provides very scant revenue. Reporters don't report for free, how does a news organization pay them without charging for the content they generate?

What is a workiable solution? It's unrealistic to just expect it to remain as is, when the current model is killing these companies.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Why can't advertising on the internet provide as much revenue as advertising in the newspaper used to?

Publishing on the internet is cheaper, so with the same advertising revenues as always, why can't they make a profit?

I'm confused about the nature of the problem.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 10:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW


If they ever ask ME to pay for ANYTHING on the internet I'll be gone. Heck, FFF is one of the few sites I've ever even "registered" for. I really don't trust the internet, have never done banking or financial stuff on it. Bought a few things on Amazon over the years, but's that's it. I can never fully shake the feeling that everything I do on it is somehow showing up somewhere on someone else's screen. None of us can ever be safe. If hackers can get Pentagon stuff, they can get my stuff. I saw a thing recently on Dateline showing identity-theft websites where hackers sell your personal info for as little as five bucks. Pretty scary.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 10:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Five bucks for identity info?

I wonder how hard it would be to generate large quantities of superficially sound but in reality bogus information?

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:16 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Why can't advertising on the internet provide as much revenue as advertising in the newspaper used to?

Publishing on the internet is cheaper, so with the same advertising revenues as always, why can't they make a profit?

I'm confused about the nature of the problem.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner




If I recall, studies have shown people are very adept at completely ignoring net ads, far beyond what they do with TV - but I have no cites.

One definite factor, is people useing pop-up blockers and such to block the ads. One way or the other, advertisers decided years ago that net ads are not as effective, and the rates they pay dropped right about the time the bubble burst a few years back. It's not the same revenue stream, plain and simple.

And the entitlement attitude that comes with the internet makes things worse - people think that anything online should be free - regardless of what that means to those who provide the content.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The internet didn't invent an entitlement attitude to content. I remember spending my childhood watching free content on VHF and UHF stations.

It's the businesses themselves that set such expectations with how they operated in the past. No surprise that people will balk at paying tomorrow for what they were receiving for free today.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This too: "people are very adept at completely ignoring net ads"

Newspapers are rife with ads from local businesses, advertising special deals and cut-out coupons. People could easily ignore these ads in a newspaper. Instead they choose to look at them.

There's no reason CNN and the New York Times couldn't have special deals and coupon areas with things relevant to your municipality, just like a real newspaper. If I was at work and trying to decide what to eat for lunch, I could pull up the adverts page and select which fast food restaurant had the best coupon. Then print and go.

It's not that they can't make money with online advertisements. It's that they aren't doing it right.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 12:08 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

The internet didn't invent an entitlement attitude to content. I remember spending my childhood watching free content on VHF and UHF stations.



Create? No. Just perpetuate, to a FAR greater degree.

And your comparison is a bit disingenuous. Watching free stuff on TV, with advertising, isn't the same as downloading anything at any time with no retruns for the originators of the product.

Quote:

It's the businesses themselves that set such expectations with how they operated in the past. No surprise that people will balk at paying tomorrow for what they were receiving for free today.


Funny, I don't remember all newspapers being free. Nor were record labels or movie studios or TV networks saying "take all you want, for free".

Your rationelle is thin at best.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 12:13 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

This too: "people are very adept at completely ignoring net ads"

Newspapers are rife with ads from local businesses, advertising special deals and cut-out coupons. People could easily ignore these ads in a newspaper. Instead they choose to look at them.

There's no reason CNN and the New York Times couldn't have special deals and coupon areas with things relevant to your municipality, just like a real newspaper. If I was at work and trying to decide what to eat for lunch, I could pull up the adverts page and select which fast food restaurant had the best coupon. Then print and go.

It's not that they can't make money with online advertisements. It's that they aren't doing it right.

--Anthony




You're still ignoring the anti-ad software that everyone has. Local coupons don't help there.

And you talking about papers as if they're entirely run on ad revenue. They're not, and never were. Or did you not notice the cover price? Even with ads, they need to generate revenue.

Again, pretty thin argument.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 12:27 PM

KAREL

Flying on duct tape and a damaged registry.


I am used to getting my mis-information, lack of information, non-information, and biased information for free. Now I have to pay for it?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 12:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Why don't the papers just move to the internet, and use the hulu.com model?

I watch shows on hulu, and you have to sit through commercials to do so. The good part is, they're 30-second commercials, one per commercial break. Short enough that you sit through them, not long enough for you to take a pee break or go to the fridge for more beer.

Papers could do the same thing. If you run a story across 5 "pages" on the internet, every time you click "next page", you have to sit through a commercial. They get ad revenue, you get your story, and nobody's too annoyed by either one. It seems like a workable solution to me.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 1:26 PM

SERGEANTX


They have to figure out how to make money somehow and I'd rather seem them selling their services outright rather than relying on underhanded ad revenue.

It's an interesting challenge, and I'm kind of looking forward to what bubbles out of it. The thing is, if they're going to get people to pay, they'll have to start producing something worth paying for. I think it's an opportunity for real journalists to move forward and prove that have something valuable to offer. God knows they've been at a bit of a low point in terms of both quality and integrity over the last twenty years.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 2:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I wonder how hard it would be to generate large quantities of superficially sound but in reality bogus information?

So easy even a CGI script can do it.

Case in point - WPoison.
http://www.monkeys.com/wpoison/
Quote:

One definite factor, is people useing pop-up blockers and such to block the ads.

They poisoned themselves here - the backlash effect of using pop-ups, malware and other abusive bullshit which does harm to a customers PC, or takes control of it in a manner that is unwanted will NOT generate positive feelings toward your product, rather the opposite, and folks WILL eventually find a workaround.

How'd you like it if in the middle of your favorite program, not only did your TV run commercials, but disabled the mute button, turned the volume ALL THE WAY UP, and then loaded a script that sent you into an endless stream of commercials like that, AND changed the channel back to them no matter what you did ?

Be a bit of a pisser, wouldn't it ?
Would that make YOU fond of the advertiser or their product, eh ?
Quote:

It's not that they can't make money with online advertisements. It's that they aren't doing it right.

Exactly, and not just that, but treating your potential customers as *enemies* is one way to make them so - just look at most non-authoritarian folks reaction to DRM and the DMCA, especially when it makes USING any of that content either so inefficient and hassle filled it's not worth it, or in many cases downright impossible - my friend Donnie has NEVER gotten his Blu-Ray player to work for this very reason, and has since relegated it to the bottom of a closet.

Annnd, well, lemme offer you hard evidence, direct proof that the "lock it up and make them pay, or ELSE!" mentality is financially destructive to those who use it...
http://www.baen.com/library/

Go on, read Eric Flints rant there, and then realize that since operating the Baen Free Library, he's been *proven* absolutely right.

http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baen_Free_Library

So with evidence in hand, the best model is to throw the doors wide, but greed and control issues won't let the dinosaurs running many industries admit that - and so they adapt, or die.

And as for "News" content... ha!

When people buy your "news" for information, and find out that you've lied to them, tried to manipulate them, and collaborated with an administration that wanted to reduce them to mere serfs...

And they stop buying your "news" and go to the people who DIDN'T do that...

Maybe you should look to something other than price or advertising as the cause of that exodus!

Just sayin.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 7, 2009 3:56 PM

ERIC


"Let them die."
- Captain Kirk

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 4:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sarge- Basically, what you're saying is the information belongs to the rich...

Justice belongs to the rich...
Rape Victims Forced To Pay For Evidence
Victims of sexual assault are getting bills, rejection letters and pushy calls from bill collectors while a state crime victims' fund sits full of cash www.click2houston.com/news/19400415/detail.html

"Free speech" belongs to the rich...
PoliticsTV's Youtube account and all of its videos are now inaccessible
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/2/10/114034/681

Education belongs to the rich...


The "free market" only services those with money. And since money, like power, concentrates over time, unless you devise a system which actively redistributes power - money, education, information, guns, the vote, the power of the pulpit- you will create a system of wealthy overlords. I think that you're so automatically elitist you don't even notice it.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Basically, what you're saying is the information belgons to the rich.

Likr justice belongs to the rich...



You tweaking again?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The rich can afford Lexis Nexis searches. They can buy the insight of, and access to, TPTB. They already have channels of communication amongst themselves. The powerless- that's us- have the internet and google and access to whatever free content we can get. The so-called "free market" is NOT a panacea... it is a hurricane of money, nothing more and nothing less. EVEN IF you could raze it to the ground, it would quickly re-create a monopolistic, uneven structure. A structure which is very much at odds with the future that you envision.



----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:13 AM

SERGEANTX


LOL

All I said is that they're going to have to rethink what they're doing if they're going to convince people to pay for it. I think that's a good thing.

Since information is readily available to anyone with an internet connection, they're going to have to work for their money. They can't just sit on their butts and regurgitate the AP wire and get paid for it. We might just see a long overdue improvement in the quality of journalism as a result.

How you get from that to your usual socialist screed is beyond me. I guess any excuse is a good one.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Since information is readily available to anyone with an internet connection
The poor already do not have internet access. What access they have is thru the local public library (one of those socialist institutions). And AFA information being "readily available" (ie free) ... DUH. That was the point of the article. To keep information unavailable.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:17 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Since information is readily available to anyone with an internet connection
DUH. That's the point of the article.



??

Alrighty then.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Please see my edit.

Let me ask you a question: Do you know what "content" is?

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The internet has revolutionized the way we get information. All of that may come to a screeching halt, as news corporations seeks to make it a profit center.
...
Once again, profit ruins a great idea.



So, SignyM, any suggestions as to a better system, or is this just another rant against those who think that they deserve to be paid for providing a service?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Government-funded media. Seems to work well for BBC and CBC, and to some extent NPR.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:31 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Let me ask you a question: Do you know what "content" is?



Ahh.. well, that's the interesting bit of this topic. It's currently in the midst of being redefined. It's no longer the same is "information" and that's what currently has the traditional media in a tailspin. For ages now, journalism (for most practitioners) has been about controlling the pipeline. But now, much the same as the music business, the pipeline has become nearly immediate. Writers and performers can deliver their services directly to an audience. And they can do it without the overhead, and compromising influence, of large corporate interests.

I think a new definition of "content", at least in terms of something you can making money with, is one of the things that will shake out of all of things.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:42 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Government-funded media. Seems to work well for BBC and CBC, and to some extent NPR.



So, I have a question, since you seem intent on the usual.

Libertarian types often talk about government in terms of the limited set of services it should provide, with all else being off-limits. You seem to look at it from the other end of the spectrum, so I'm wondering, what are the limits of your government run paradise? What wouldn't you put government in charge of? What are the limits of your ideal system and how would you go about defining them?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 5:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


HOWEVER.... there are several pinch-points to this information explosion:

1) Private ownership of the physical internet. In the USA, the backbones (fiberoptic, satellite and cable) and switching networks are owned by the telecoms (AT&T, Verizon etc). Yes, you can choose one ISP over another but in the end they have to lease their time on the phsyical structures. And thanks to a recent FCC decision, the owners of the physical structure are no longer required to lease out their equipment to competing entities.

Like water, sewage, electricity, gas, and roadways, installation of competing infrastructure is so expensive that these services form natural monopolies and a natural pinch-point. (Limited bandwidth of broadcast TV and radio also encourages monopolies.) Because of that monopolistic structure, access could- in theory- become virtually unobtainable.

2) Individual access to the inet. It takes a computer and some disposable income to access the inet, both to input information and to obtain it. It also takes some technology training. Information is therefore winnowed by money and education.

3) ISP pinch-points. It's no secret that google has conceded terms to the PRC. Which also bring up Microsoft and its NSA backdoors, and its self-interested and mutual copyright protection agreements with the RIAA. (I will nver forgive Bill Clinton for the DMCA. They call it digital "rights" management, when in reality its digital RESTRICTIONS management. Talk about Orwellian!)

4) Data collection. A million on-the-scene "reporters" with cellphone cameras cannot- unfortunately- replace one good investigative reporter. (Altho the million cellphone reporters ARE every good at exposing official lies.)

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Libertarian types often talk about government in terms of the limited set of services it should provide, with all else being off-limits. You seem to look at it from the other end of the spectrum, so I'm wondering, what at the limits of your government run paradise? What wouldn't you put government in charge of? What at the limits of your ideal system and how would you go about defining them?
My ideal government? Wow, that would take pages. I'm not sure I've fully thought it out yet, but when I have time I'll give it a shot.

My quick answer, tho, is.... when you see something that's working elsewhere and examples of what haven't worked, why re-invent the wheel? The closest we've ever come to "free market" capitalism was at the founding of our nation: land was relatively available (not a nation of nobles and peasants) and many people were producers. Incomes (not counting slaves and women) were fairly level compared to today. There were no large businesses. But it didnt' take long (about 100 years) before we devolved to corporatocracy! That is the NATURAL history of capitalism: what starts out equal becomes unequal. Small businesses are acquired by bigger businesses. Monopolies ensue. A wealthy class is created. OTOH look at Europe. They have created a system where wealth is re-distributed, education is encouraged and freely available, telecoms (physical infrastructure) is owned by the government etc... in a milieu of democratically-elected governments.

That's not my IDEAL solution but its certainly better than what we have here!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Government-funded media. Seems to work well for BBC and CBC, and to some extent NPR.



I take it this assumes that you, or folk you approve of, will be running the government at this point, so the message the government-funded media provides will be approved and appropriate.

I notice you didn't include Russia's government funded, and run, media in your list. How do you manage to get funding without control? Notice how much control the US government's minority stake in GM and Chrysler gives them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Government-funded media. Seems to work well for BBC and CBC, and to some extent NPR.



I take it this assumes that you, or folk you approve of, will be running the government at this point, so the message the government-funded media provides will be approved and appropriate.

I notice you didn't include Russia's government funded, and run, media in your list. How do you manage to get funding without control? Notice how much control the US government's minority stake in GM and Chrysler gives them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:39 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
My ideal government? Wow, that would take pages. I'm not sure I've fully thought it out yet, but when I have time I'll give it a shot...



But what about the questions? The aspect I'm particularly interested in is:
Quote:

what are the limits of your government run paradise? What wouldn't you put government in charge of? What are the limits of your ideal system and how would you go about defining them?


To get you started:

Does the government decide what we do for a living?

Does the government decide where we can live?

Does the government decide whom we marry? If we can have children?

But the point is not to answer these specific questions. I'm trying to determine what guiding principles you'd used to determine the limits on government power, if indeed there are any.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I take it this assumes that you, or folk you approve of, will be running the government at this point, so the message the government-funded media provides will be approved and appropriate.
I guess YOU approve of corporations controlling the message? In any case both the BBC and CBC manage to avoid this. It's not inevitable.
Quote:

I notice you didn't include Russia's government funded, and run, media in your list.
Because they're run differently. Nothing says we have to adopt their model. Maybe providing more funds to NPR - which gets high marks for objective and in-depth reporting- would be a good start.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The rich can afford Lexis Nexis searches. They can buy the insight of, and access to, TPTB. They already have channels of communication amongst themselves. The powerless- that's us- have the internet and google and access to whatever free content we can get. The so-called "free market" is NOT a panacea... it is a hurricane of money, nothing more and nothing less. EVEN IF you could raze it to the ground, it would quickly re-create a monopolistic, uneven structure. A structure which is very much at odds with the future that you envision.




I think Leonard Cohen said it best:

Quote:


'Cause you can say that I've grown bitter,
but of this you may be sure:
The rich have got their channels
in the bedrooms of the poor.
And there's a mighty judgment coming,
but I may be wrong.



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Mike: Thanks for bringing this back on-track.

Sarge: My view of the government is an entity which actively redistributes power, but which itself has a very short pyramid and is responsive to the people for whom it works. I will try to address this later. The answers to your questions are: no, no, and no.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 7:32 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I will try to address this later. The answers to your questions are: no, no, and no.



Please do. Like I said, I'd mostly like some clarity on where the limits lie and how you draw them. I'm glad to hear you answered "no" to all the questions, but the point is the reasoning that led you to those answers.

EDIT: How about another thread? This is off-topic, much as a tried to avoid it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 11:35 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I take it this assumes that you, or folk you approve of, will be running the government at this point, so the message the government-funded media provides will be approved and appropriate.
I guess YOU approve of corporations controlling the message?

I’d rather them control the message then the government. At least when corporations do it, there is more then just one voice and the government exists to act as some form of buffer to limit excess. This is why I can’t be a Left-winger. I can’t see how giving total control to a single all powerful entity makes us more free then if total control rests in the hands of many quasi-powerful entities. It doesn’t make the least bit of sense.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 8, 2009 7:30 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I guess YOU approve of corporations controlling the message? In any case both the BBC and CBC manage to avoid this.


I don't approve of anybody controlling all the media. Even PN has a place. And are you sure that BBC and CBC are so pure? Maybe they're just subtle.

Quote:

Maybe providing more funds to NPR - which gets high marks for objective and in-depth reporting- would be a good start.


NPR gets about a quarter of its funds from government, and is always being threatened by congress with cuts if it gets too far out of line.

Do you really trust the US government, which you accuse of torture, invasion of privacy, imperialism, disregard for environmental problems, support of the rich in the face of poverty, etc. etc. etc., with controlling the purse strings, and therefore the content of the media?

It's always strange to me that you claim to hate and fear the government, yet consistantly want to give it more control of every aspect of our lives. Even if folk you hate and fear less are in control now, things may change with any election. History shows that partys and philosophies go in cycles. Would you want a Dick Cheney clone controlling the media?

I'd be happier with news corporations and nutso bloggers.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 16:19 - 3412 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 16:12 - 8 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:18 - 2071 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL