REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 04:59
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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:14 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Kind of a non-answer.

You’re asking me about details of the trade. I’m not an interrogator, so I don’t know how detailed I can explain the process. If you query me on the details of basket weaving you’ll get just as vague a response.



I'm not asking about what's used in the real world, I'm asking about the methods you are promoting, so it's only your opinion I'm interested in, which you should be an expert on. :)

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Are you saying that sleep-deprivation is a good kind of torture or are you saying torture them until they can't stand it anymore (which is silly because they could well start lying early and keep lying when they are echausted)?

Ah, so there is a distinction between interrogation and extracting confessions. The first, sleep-deprivation, would be a method of interrogation designed to weaken the will of the suspect. The later would be a means of extracting confessions designed to force the suspect to say what you want to hear.




That's not how I would draw the distinction.

You equare different goals with different methods. Confession = painful torture. Information = psychological torture.

You should have just said that you mean a difference in technique, because I don't think most people necessarily make that same assumption.

It's also an assumption that psychological torture like sleep deprivation is that much more reliable than pain-infliction, methinks. I do think you can get someone to confess a crime they didn't commit by depriving them of sleep long enough, and they could stil lie and lie and lie if you're asking them for particular information.


And it still doesn't answer what I'm really interested in: at what point and how to you verify what they tell you and how does it influence the torture process. If they tell you something, do you let them sleep and go verify? Or do g on? Do you torture them until it's verified? What if that takes a while?


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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I disagree that they knew they would necessarily die. Why else were there all these "tests" to see if someone was actually a witch? The theory was that you'd withstand torture if you were innocent.

You mean like dunking a suspected witch under water and if they didn’t drown they were innocent? The tests were designed to kill you, and if they didn’t you were a convicted witch, and condemned to die.
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Okay, honestly. I'm not trying to be irritating, but I have not noticed you explaining the difference. Maybe I didn't catch it from your words.

So, I guess, in the interest of clarity I will request you to be so kind and restate in very specific terms the exact difference is between torturing for a confession and torturing for information. Please.

The difference lies in the intent. If your intent is to extract a confession then the most painful and damaging techniques will rending results, but if your intent is to find information, then it doesn’t do a lot of good to use those kinds of methods. The methods you want to use are those that result in mental exhaustion to break the will of the suspect. It would seem that inflicting injury, at the very least, would be counterproductive.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:22 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
There is an immediacy and fear of death that we're disconnecting on here. I don't feel torture coercion is appropriate in interrogation for even terrorists who threaten to bomb my hometown.

So you feel like if the actual act that you are trying to prevent is distant enough then the defense used to prevent it should be less. As the time to the attack grows closer and more immediate does your willingness to be more aggressive in defense become greater?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Glad you clarified, Finn. Let me quote myself and see if you agree with what I said. If not let me know
Quote:

But as I gather from your statements- It all goes back to INTENT. "Interrogation" is anything that you do to break a person with the intent of getting the truth. That COULD include electric shock, or boiling oil, if in the eyes of the interrogator it was necessary or helpful. The one thing it COULDN'T include is death, because at that point no more information is available. (Unless of course the interrogator thought that all useful information had been extracted and simply didn't want the victim to go squealing to the press later.) Whereas "extracting a confession" is anything you can do to break a person with the INTENT of getting them to tell you what you want to hear!
So it has nothing to do with the "means"... which could include anything that the interrogator might think is useful ... and everything to do with the ends? What I gather from your statements is that you wouldn't rule out any technique on moral grounds but simply on whether a particular technique was effective in obtaining the truth?

I know that you try to draw a correlation between what is moral and what is effective, but that correlation simply doesn't hold up.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Everyone,

First of all, I'd like to wag my finger at some of you. Finn and I were managing a productive exchange of ideas last night, and I woke up to see a lot of exchanged insults. I thought to myself, "God Damn, why can't these assholes just have a fucking discussion for a change?!" Which, of course, made me as guilty of name calling as everyone else.

Geezer and Auraptor,

You are astute and correct on one important item. I am more outraged about the US committing heinous acts than I am about our enemies doing so. I am much more critical of US morality than I am of the morality of other nations. I am unfair in my application of judgment to both parties.

I will tell you why torture and other crimes committed by Americans do bother me more than similar crimes committed by other countries and their citizens. It is because of my personal shame and guilt in this matter.

I selected, trained, equipped, and deployed the people who committed torture. I gave them orders to use whatever means were necessary to extract information. I stripped people of their dignity. I grinned next to miserable, naked souls. I corrupted the interrogated and the interrogator. I am guilty of these things.

I am a tax-paying citizen in a republic, and the buck stops here.

My own crimes against humanity will always weigh more heavily on me than the crimes and injustices of others. The American outrages will always feed my outrage to greater heights than the outrages of any other group or people.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:30 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I disagree that they knew they would necessarily die. Why else were there all these "tests" to see if someone was actually a witch? The theory was that you'd withstand torture if you were innocent.

You mean like dunking a suspected witch under water and if they didn’t drown they were innocent? The tests were designed to kill you, and if they didn’t you were a convicted witch, and condemned to die.



They didn't generally wait until they drowned. If they sunk, they were probably not witches and were mostly pulled out. If they swam on top, they were guilty and would be pulled out for further interrogation.

Quote:


The difference lies in the intent. If your intent is to extract a confession then the most painful and damaging techniques will rending results, but if your intent is to find information, then it doesn’t do a lot of good to use those kinds of methods. The methods you want to use are those that result in mental exhaustion to break the will of the suspect. It would seem that inflicting injury, at the very least, would be counterproductive.



Actually, the difference lies in the method, then.

So why not say that right away? And why waterboarding, then? That's painful and damaging, so obviously intent and method don't always match your theory.

But thank you for clarifying what you mean.

I still think that mental exhaustion methods don't make the actual information received more reliable. You receive information, but do you receive the truth? You can torture your suspect longer because they don't have as many medical issues, but does it really improve the quality of the result?

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

First of all, I'd like to wag my finger at some of you.
Does that include me? I hope not! But if so, let me know where I've erred.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:43 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Does that it might save lives make it right ?


No. Nothing makes it right to torture someone for information.

However, the prospect of saving lives creates a legal condition known as "exigent circumstances".

Generally this is recognized situations where there is a reasonable belief that life, property, or evidence may be in jeopardy. If this is the case the State may use that as justification to violate a person's Constitutional rights (such as a warrant requirement for entry into a private residence).

"When police have a reasonable and sincere fear that someone is in jeopardy and contraband might be destroyed, this usually constitutes sufficient exigency to justify a simultaneous, no-refusal entry." See McConney, 728 F.2d at 1206; Whitney, 633 F.2d at 909-10.

The harm is still there, so the mere fact that the lives are on the line does not make it right...rather it mitigates the harm...in effect cancelling out the wrong (ie still not right, but no longer wrong).

In order to effectively judge the correctness of the Bush administration's decsion we need to know the basis of that decision (what they reasonably believed) and the results of the interrogation (terror plots uncovered and lives saved). To that end President Obama should have and should now declassify ALL the memos and records. Should any sort of prosecution be undertaken it is likely those additional memos will be declassified by the Court as they would be essential to the defense.

Frankly, it was irresponsible to declassify the torture memos...but the President chose to do it, now it is completely unreasonable to declassify those without the others to give us the "rest of the story".

Cheney says they stopped a 9/11 second wave attack and saved thousands of lives. If thats true, we deserve to know, if its not...we need to know that too.

Truth is Obama is now in a corner. He's stopped these interrogations, then released the memos, which led to us learning the interrogations were effective in stopping attacks. If we are attacked again then he's completely screwed, if he tries to reverse his policy and it comes out, he's completely screwed. He'd have been better off keeping the whole thing secret so he'd have a card to play should we capture a person with information we need when lives are on the line.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.



So you are saying " intent " mitigates " the crime.

But could not the same argument be used in ANY torture case ? Sudan, Congo, Balkans, etc

With the precedents set by the Nuremberg trials as well as the US execution of Japanese interrogators for waterboarding Americans, or even more recently the court martial of US interrogators during the Vietnam war for waterboarding Vietnamese prisoners


While I am not a lawyer, your remarks here
" we need to know the basis of that decision (what they reasonably believed) and the results of the interrogation " leads to more questions

could you explain what happens to evidence developed by illegal search, we would definitely need more information here on all case even those where these methods were employed to no result, but if even one case doesn't support reasonable grounds that would bring to question the legality of the order and expose the interrogators and their chain of command to action. And if the use of these methods resulted in the death of the subject ?

Perhaps Obama should simply step sideways on the issue,

He should lift the US prohibitions on the International Criminal Court and allow the Hague to decide this issue. Then it is not a question of the success or failure of an Obama policy, but simply one of complying with international law.



" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:55 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So you feel like if the actual act that you are trying to prevent is distant enough then the defense used to prevent it should be less. As the time to the attack grows closer and more immediate does your willingness to be more aggressive in defense become greater?



Not really. In my mind, torture or extreme coercion or whatever we're calling it is not acceptable at any point. I expect tenacious and continuing investigations into the threat. I want people out there on the ground looking for evidence and clues and leads. I want people in the offices following the communication trail. I want the inside men to learn key info. I'm not going to give up when the interrogation returns little or no usable information. I'm also not going t resort to harm. I am going to keep looking and verifying.

The best defense may be a good offense but that doesn't apply in national security. We can't attack someone because they might hurt us. We can't torture someone because they might know something. We prepare. We learn. We build intelligence. Then we either stop the threat through legal(national and international law) means or defend ourselves. The best defense is preparedness.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:58 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Torture, American style
The surprising force behind torture: democracies




http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2007/12/16/torture_am
erican_style/?page=1


" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Rappy:

...the Left is hoping and praying ( well, not literally, as they don't really buy into God™)...



Gee, I wasn't aware that YOU bought into the whole "god" fiasco either. But you seem perfectly content to try to belittle others who don't.

Curious.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The difference is that coercive interrogation techniques are used with the intent of finding information. Witch trials and inquisitions were used with the intent of extracting confessing and then execution.



"Finding information"... regardless of whether it's actionable, reliable, or even truthful.

Seems waterboarding is used as much for "extracting confessing" as much as it is for anything else.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Finn:

The life of the suspected witch or infidel was forfeit as soon as the trial started.



And the life of the suspected terrorist was forfeit as soon as the torture started. Maybe they aren't being killed by torture, maybe they aren't being executed - but they ARE still being held, with no charges, no trials, no representation, and no hope of ever getting out. Their lives are forfeit the second they're picked up. Don't pretend otherwise.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

More empty, gutless lies and rhetoric from the likes of you. It is patently absurd for anyone to believe that skin color, hair thickness , or any way one defines "race" can be shown to hold any level of superiority. Race is bullshit, and any moron who clings to such superficial guides to gauge another person is nothing but a simplistic , useful idiot. I get so damn tired of seeing the RACIST lie perpetuated by the so called enlightened Left.


Huh. Rap, I'm in the centre, and I get damn tired of both the RACIST lie used against the right and equally the HATE-AMERICA lie perpetuated by the right against the left...

Heads should roll

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Then perhaps it’s something you need to think about for a while.


Predictably deflective.


The laughing Chrisisall



And further proof that, like AuRaptor, Finn has no answers.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Confessed by Finn:

I’m not an interrogator, so I don’t know how detailed I can explain the process. If you query me on the details of basket weaving you’ll get just as vague a response.



In other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about any more than the rest of us, whom you accuse of not knowing what we're talking about.

There - at least now we know how much weight to give your opinions, your imaginary scenarios that you suspect might have something to do with the possibility of lives being involved, one way or another... and the amount of weight we should give your opinions (since you haven't cited a single fact in all of this) is... NONE!


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Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:19 AM

CHRISISALL


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090422/ts_alt_afp/usattacksmilitaryjusti
cetortureblair_20090422192111

Quote:

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security,"- Retired admiral Dennis Blair

Okay, so THAT says that no 9-11 style terrorist attacks were foiled using torture.
That makes AU & Finn look like the bags of hot air they're acting like here.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


DRAT! Yes, I know... here I am with those terrible questions again! Using the "Gestapo" tactic of asking over and over again, with the intent at getting at the truth! But I'd still like some help Finn. 'Cause I'm not sure I'm getting your distinction. You said
Quote:

The difference lies in the intent.
You also said
Quote:

I suspect that there is a set of circumstances in which even the hardest of resolve will crack.
So maybe I'm taking things out of context, but one statement seems to imply that the only difference between interrogation and extracting a confession is intent, and the other statement seems to imply that there is no length to which you wouldn't imagine going during an interrogation. Now, somewhere in the middle you DID say that causing injury is more likely to cause shock than produce information but... that kind of issue can so easily be gotten around with the right medical help. And electric shock doesn't even cause injury. So IMHO a practical barrier to applying torture during interrogation doesn't exist. Let me quote myself, again, and see if I've got it right:
Quote:

"But as I gather from your statements- It all goes back to INTENT. "Interrogation" is anything that you do to break a person with the intent of getting the truth. That COULD include electric shock, or boiling oil, if in the eyes of the interrogator it was necessary or helpful. The one thing it COULDN'T include is death, because at that point no more information is available. (Unless of course the interrogator thought that all useful information had been extracted and simply didn't want the victim to go squealing to the press later.) Whereas "extracting a confession" is anything you can do to break a person with the INTENT of getting them to tell you what you want to hear!"

So it has nothing to do with the "means"... which could include anything that the interrogator might think is useful ... and everything to do with the ends? What I gather from your statements is that you wouldn't rule out any technique on moral grounds but simply on whether a particular technique was effective in obtaining the truth? I know that you try to draw a correlation between what is moral and what is effective, but that correlation simply doesn't hold up.

So is there a point which you would not go for moral reasons during an interrogation?


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


DRAT! Yes, I know... here I am with those terrible questions again! Using the "Gestapo" tactic of asking over and over again, with the intent at getting at the truth!



Some might even say you're TORTURING him with these questions!



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090422/ts_alt_afp/usattacksmilitaryjusti
cetortureblair_20090422192111

Quote:

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security,"- Retired admiral Dennis Blair

Okay, so THAT says that no 9-11 style terrorist attacks were foiled using torture.
That makes AU & Finn look like the bags of hot air they're acting like here.



The laughing Chrisisall



Not to mention how it makes Geezer and Hero look; they were the ones pointing to that article as their justification for why they want to torture folks!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Part of Gino's cite:
Quote:

So torture hasn't really disappeared in the modern age. What have disappeared are forms of torture that leave marks. The police, military investigators, and governments in democratic societies can count on the press and people watching. They know that if a prisoner can't show any marks of torture, people are far less likely to believe his or her story. So as societies have become more open, the art of torture has crept underground and evolved into the chilling new forms - often undetectable - that define torture today.
That include electric shock (widely used by the Gestapo), sleep deprivation, stress positions, hypothermia, waterboarding, and chemicals:
"substance P and neurokinin A must work in combination to account for pain"
www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/press_releases/pressrelease_pain_pep
tides_032598.htm





---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, speaking of batsh*t crazy (sorry AnthonyT, I just gotta grind this in one more time. Then I'll stop, I promise) this is just a refresher about how this whole thread started. From our very own batsh*t crazy rightist!
Quote:

If there was any doubt that the Left is bat shit crazy, and cares purely for 1 thing and 1 thing only, there's no doubt any longer. The Left's ridiculous, phony and 100% fabricated indignation over non-torture torture is nothing more than a purely partisan, politically driven side show intended for one purpose only - to get more power by demonizing anyone who stands in their way. They don't CARE that Islamo fascists are going to try to kill 1000's more. That's what the Left wing leadership WANTS ! They want to cause crisis after crisis after crisis, and as Rahm Emanuel says, do what could not be done otherwise, w/regards to taking more and more power. From illegal immigration, to gay marriages, to terrorist attacks, the Left is hoping and praying ( well, not literally, as they don't really buy into God™ ) to create such chaos in this country, they'll have no other choice than to remake it in their socialist Utopian template.


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


AgentR
Quote:

And where and how does verification come into this?

There's the rub, apparently, AgentR - from all I've been able to determine, it don't.

Which means despite all the outraged denials, the general purpose was indeed to extract "confessions", especially in light of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "confessing" to acts we not only knew he didn't commit, but acts he could not HAVE comitted.

Muchlike american police, there's no investigation worthy of the name, they just pinch the guy they GUESS did it, and squeeze him till he "talks" - and as of late the innocence project and DNA evidence have shown without a doubt how completely worthless those kinds of under-duress "confessions" really are.

TWG
Quote:

Not really. In my mind, torture or extreme coercion or whatever we're calling it is not acceptable at any point. I expect tenacious and continuing investigations into the threat. I want people out there on the ground looking for evidence and clues and leads. I want people in the offices following the communication trail. I want the inside men to learn key info. I'm not going to give up when the interrogation returns little or no usable information. I'm also not going t resort to harm. I am going to keep looking and verifying.

The best defense may be a good offense but that doesn't apply in national security. We can't attack someone because they might hurt us. We can't torture someone because they might know something. We prepare. We learn. We build intelligence. Then we either stop the threat through legal(national and international law) means or defend ourselves. The best defense is preparedness.


That's how it's SUPPOSED to work, TWG - but they don't do it that way, in part because all their on-the-ground personnel are too busy *creating* terrorist plots (WTC 1993, Ft Dix Six, Etc) that they can get high profile media-circuses out of to justify their incompetent existance and hopefully score more funding and harrassing politically unreliable americans, while tapping THEIR phones.

They have jack shit for people who really understand the languages and culture they're dealing with since none will work for them given the obvious bent towards demonising that whole culture and people instead of those who twist it to excuse the harm they do - and as such have become so politicized and incompetent that they've been unable to effectively insert agents for YEARS because of the mindset of their personnel - can you really see someone like, say Rappy not blowing their cover ?

That's why I am so irate about it, that for all that money and their constant assault on our freedoms, these alphabet crooks as not only useless for their intended purpose, they're as much or more a threat to us and our way of life as the goddamned terrorists.

Kwicko
Quote:

In other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about any more than the rest of us, whom you accuse of not knowing what we're talking about.

Err, Mikey ?

I do claim some small knowledge of the subject, mind you, and while it's your choice whether to give that claim credence or not, bear it in mind when I say that aggressive interrogation of this type DOES NOT WORK.

And now imma drop the bomb on the bastards claiming it didn't happen.

"There were five cases of detainee deaths as a result of abuse by U.S. personnel during interrogations"

And where is this from, you ask ?

FINAL REPORT OF THE INDEP. PANEL TO REVIEW DOD DETENTION OPERATIONS
PAGE 13.

Read it for your fucking self.
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=7663

Sixty-six known cases of abuse.
One third known to be connected to interrogation.
Five deaths absolutely confirmed to have caused in this fashion.
Twenty some more under investigation.

And that was in 2004.

Yes, Virginia, we DO torture people to death.
And then we lie about it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll ask again, since you keep avoiding the issue in the other thread...

Quote:


Since you insist that waterboarding isn't torture unless it's done to someone in uniform, let me put a scenario to you:

Say the Iranians have tried and convicted a 30-year-old Iranian-American woman - an American citizen not serving in the military or the diplomatic corps - on charges of spying. Now, since she's clearly NOT a soldier, nor wearing the uniform of any recognized armed forces, then they are clearly within their rights to waterboard her, are they not? I mean, they can use whatever means necessary to "break" her, since she is, in essence, a "terrorist" - at least in their eyes, and according to their law.

So you're totally okay with them doing this, yes?

By the way, her name is Roxana Saberi. She was a former contestant in a Miss North Dakota beauty pageant, holds two masters degrees, and is a graduate of Northwestern, with a degree in journalism.

Iran has a golden opportunity here. They can use the exact same methods that the U.S. has used, and we can't say shit about it, OR they can gain international favor by NOT torturing this girl, and then they end up looking more civilized than we do. Either way, it doesn't work out too well for us...



By the way, your thread title is misleading. "Interrogating" those who want to kill us isn't a worse crime than them wanting to kill us. TORTURING those who want to kill us actually IS a worse crime than them wanting to kill us.

By the way, I'm not going away. Like it or not, you're going to have to face this question.

Is waterboarding acceptable when it's done to our people by people we don't like or agree with?

Finn says it's okay to do it to others if it will save lives. So I ask if it's okay for Iraqi insurgents to capture and "harshly interrogate" OUR soldiers if they think that it will save IRAQI lives to know what we're doing and what we're planning.

And is it okay for the Iranians to "harshly interrogate" an American journalist if she's been tried and convicted of syping?

I'll wait, but your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.


He has no case, so much so that he can't even make something up so he can say you have no case.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I can't just leave this SO CLOSE to an even 100 posts! (Call me Monk!)


---------------------------------
THERE! I feel better!

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't just leave this SO CLOSE to an even 100 posts! (Call me Monk!)


---------------------------------
THERE! I feel better!



125 now.

Make that 126.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.


He has no case, so much so that he can't even make something up so he can say you have no case.


The laughing Chrisisall



Chris: Ssssshhhh... I was humoring him, lulling him into thinking that he DOES have a case.


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Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:25 PM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It is patently absurd for anyone to believe that skin color, hair thickness , or any way one defines "race" can be shown to hold any level of superiority. Race is bullshit, and any moron who clings to such superficial guides to gauge another person is nothing but a simplistic , useful idiot. I get so damn tired of seeing the RACIST lie perpetuated by the so called enlightened Left.



Race is bullshit. There is a common ground for every ethnic type to co-exist peacefully...fruitfully. Sadly, everyone is fighting like Hell to perpetuate the "superior race" card.

We can't take one step into the future until we realize that we are all equal.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Damnit. 129.

Now it's 130!

BTW- Rappy? Finn? Geezer?

Helloooooo.....?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


131 bump!

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:42 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by OPPYH:

We can't take one step into the future until we realize that we are all equal.

The steps can be taken, IMO, just, like, awkwardly.
But I agree in spirit.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by OPPYH:

We can't take one step into the future until we realize that we are all equal.

The steps can be taken, IMO, just, like, awkwardly.
But I agree in spirit.


The laughing Chrisisall



Yup. Hopefully every generation gets a little better.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:49 PM

CHRISISALL


It *seems* to be that way, if you look at stats. We may yet develop a Starfleet & Federation Of Planets....


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, well, that certainly proves it; someone SAID it. That's good enough for me!



So "President Obama’s national intelligence director" would lie about it?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:42 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- We tortured someone so we could learn about al Qaida's chain of command???? (A chain which morphs as circumstances require.)


Hey, One of President Obama's guys said the intelligence was useful, not me.

Quote:

AFA decrying killing- I'm pissed off as all hell about the Somali government. In fact, there are a LOT of leaders I think should be locked up and the key thrown away, and in my more base moments I imagine strung up by their balls.

But that would be torture!!!!

Quote:

But, to be perfectly honest: We are here to persuade or dissuade each other- a primarily American audience with an American government. There's nothing we can do to the Somali government or for the Somali people, especially when aid is hijacked and aid-workers are held for ransom. Anything we do, we do through our government. That's why the focus is on what OUR GOVERNMENT does.

Fine. But our government is no longer subjecting prisoners to (take your pick) "harsh interrogation" or "torture". People are still dying in Darfur, in Iraq, in any number of places. I'd much rather see our government extending whatever power they have, especially with a president as internationally popular as Obama is, to do something about the hundreds of thousands of people who are still suffering and dying, rather than rehashing unpleasant, but not deadly, interrogation procedures used in the past.

Bush and Cheney aren't going to interrogate anyone else, ever again. Terrorists and rogue governments are still killing a lot of people. Which is more important?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Geezer, do you believe in punishment as a deterrent to further crime?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:14 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL


Remember when I said to the detriment of the interrogator's mental health?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/us-soldier-killed-herself_
b_190517.html




---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Hey, One of President Obama's guys said the intelligence was useful, not me."

Hello,

That something can produce results is not the same as saying that something is good or efficient or best.

Given enough men and enough time, I could dig the Panama canal with spoons.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, April 24, 2009 1:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Hey, One of President Obama's guys said the intelligence was useful, not me.



I note how you conveniently leave out the part about it not helping national security. He said that, too, but you are quick to dismiss the parts you disagree with. Ironic that you'd try to call someone else for doing exactly what you've done.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 1:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, do you believe in punishment as a deterrent to further crime?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Good question.

So how 'bout it, Geez? Are you against punishing criminals for their actions in ALL cases, or only in cases where said criminal is a Republican?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:02 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Everyone,

First of all, I'd like to wag my finger at some of you. Finn and I were managing a productive exchange of ideas last night, and I woke up to see a lot of exchanged insults. I thought to myself, "God Damn, why can't these assholes just have a fucking discussion for a change?!" Which, of course, made me as guilty of name calling as everyone else.

I appreciate the opportunity to have a real discussion on the issue. And there are many others were tried to participate, for which I am grateful, but sometimes it’s just impossible with the likes of kwicko’s trolling and signym Gestapo debating tactics.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:04 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
AgentR
Quote:

And where and how does verification come into this?

There's the rub, apparently, AgentR - from all I've been able to determine, it don't.




I find it very telling and very disconcerting that you took the time to say this, but none of the torture-advocates have taken the time to refute it or answer my question.

It's not that I don't suspect you're right.. I'm just confused that they're not even making an effort.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Signym Gestapo debating tactics.
If I were the only one asking for clarification, then I'd think I might be stupid or something. But I'm not the only one, so the problem must be at your end. I've asked several questions which I think get to the heart of where I don't understand you. One of my questions was:

Is there any length to which you would not go for MORAL purposes during an interrogation?

Why do you have such difficulty with this question? It seems a simple yes or no would suffice, along with perhaps an explanation as to why or why not, or a reason for why you might stop at one point but not another. Or, you could tell me that the question was misdirected, that your REAL rationale was more along the lines of cost/benefit: that it would take a combination of circumstances in which you would be willing to go to ANY length during an interrogation... a direct chain of evidence of imminent destruction leading to the exact person being interrogated (much like in "24"). I would imagine that this could be the basis for a very fruitful discussion.

But you seem to have great difficulty answering what seem to me to be rather simple questions, which makes me wonder if you really want to be understood at all.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Been biting my toungue with you, Finn. Still not care to step forward? I promise not to bite anything- except my tongue of course!

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
If I were the only one asking for clarification, then I'd think I might be stupid or something. But I'm not the only one

He does have a knack for thinking he's clarified himself when he hasn't, at times.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


So "President Obama’s national intelligence director" would lie about it?


If he felt it was important to, yes, they all do. More likely he just wants to be perceived as knowing what he's talking about, which, of course, most peeps in that position do not.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, April 24, 2009 9:53 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Signym Gestapo debating tactics.
If I were the only one asking for clarification, then I'd think I might be stupid or something. But I'm not the only one, so the problem must be at your end. I've asked several questions which I think get to the heart of where I don't understand you. One of my questions was:

Those people who asked for clarification and generally wanted my response received it. I don’t think you can make a very convincing case that you really wanted any clarification. What you wanted was to bully and dehumanize people you don’t agree with, hense the Gestapo Debating tactic. As I told you before, you use manipulative questions, not to find understanding but to attempt to trap and corner people. Then you assign the most egregious and despicable opinion you can come up with to that person and then demand them to defend themselves.

Let’s take a look at that, shall we?

Signym Gestapo restating of my opinion:

“Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Electric shock. Pulling fingernails. Right? As long as doctors are there to control the infection, revive if necessary, keep the person alive and available for further questioning. Because it's all about "effective interrogation", right?”

(1) “by any mean(sic) necessary” I never said or implied this at any point. So why accuse me of it?

(2) Boiling Oil? The only time I mentioned boiling oil was to distinguish what I was talking about from the kind of barbaric measures taken during the Middle Ages? So you’d have to be stupid or intentionally misrepresenting me to say this is what I meant.

(3) Electric Shock, pulling fingernails. In fact what I did say was to limit interrogation to practices that do not result in injury to the suspect. So once again, you have to be intentionally misrepresenting me to accuse me of this.

(4) Reviving the suspect following Signym idea of torture? This is really sick. Something that could only come from very twisted mind. But this is all Signym. There is no comment I’ve ever made, probably in my life, much less in this thread that could even be misconstrued as meaning this. Yet Signym came up with it, all by herself, and accused me of it.

Now Signym is going to cry crocodile tears because I won’t respond, but why should I defend myself from accusations of statements I clearly never made. Signym wants to dehumanize and demonize people she doesn’t agree with, in much the same way that the Gestapo in Nazi Germany dehumanized and demonized people they didn’t agree with. Signym is welcome to her hatreds, but I’m not going to validate this kind of crap.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA


AgentR ?

I find it very telling that none of em even addresses my arguments despite the fact that I know something about this kinda thing and happened to provide hard evidence of our own admissions we did in fact torture folks to death.

They just go on arguing with everyone else in the thread and dance around ever having to own up to the facts of the matter - which is rather typical when authoritarian types run up against something that refutes their entire worldview.

It's like it don't even exist, because they cannot fit it into the artificial reality they have constructed for themselves.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

appreciate the opportunity to have a real discussion on the issue. And there are many others were tried to participate, for which I am grateful, but sometimes it’s just impossible with the likes of kwicko’s trolling and signym Gestapo debating tactics.



Finn, if you want to have a REAL discussion on the issue, why don't you answer the question I posed to Rappy? Seems both of you are too cowardly to address that thorny issue, the way you've both run away from it at light speed.

You say it's "trolling", but it's a real possibility that we'll have to face that exact scenario.

Go back to your own trolling.




As for Signy's "gestapo tactics" - you act like you're being tortured or something, the way you cry about it. What's the matter, you can't handle a little light questioning about your "beliefs"?


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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