REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tea Party protesters are civil, bathed and decent.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, April 26, 2009 06:18
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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Just think - within a mere ten years of that "recklessness", America was the richest, most powerful nation on Earth - and remained so until at least 2001.

Seems like we could use some of that kind of reckless socialism right about now!

Mike




By 1944, much of the major powers of the world had been bombed out, or had a major military campaigns ravage large parts of their land. The U.S. was the only major power that hadn't had any battles fought on its home ( mainland ) soil.

I guess you're in favor of breaking out a world war, and really hyping up the military industrial complex, to get us out of this fix, huh?





Isn't that what you've been advocating all along?

Or have you changed your tune now that there's a Democrat in the White House?

Seems that once the war STOPPED in 1945, we still had a pretty strong economy, though. Strong enough that we were able to help rebuild Germany and Japan's economies, as well as most of Western Europe.

So you seem to think that only war can drive an economy, and I think maybe there are better ways to spend that same money and get less destruction out of it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:27 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The Tea Parties were started by Ron Paul supporters.

Yup. And everyone keeps forgetting it. We try to bring transparency to the debate and as always happens, if it gains any momentum at all, the 2 polarizing parties get themselves involved in some form or fashon to cloud the message.

I was reminded of Braveheart. When Robert Bruce's father learned of Wallace's rebellion he said: "Son. You will embrace this rebellion to win symphathies from our lands in the north. I will then curry English support by condemming it in our lands to the south" That's what happened to the Tea Parties. A core of americans disaffected by their non-representing representatives started a movement of rallies. Since the R's are the opposition party they right away jumped on the wagon when they saw the popular support we were getting. In response to that the D's condemmed it outright and mocked everything with "Teabagging" references and derision...quickly forgetting how disent was so very "patrotic" from 2003-2008.

Lost in the resultant fog was our message: "You cannot spend what you do not have" Both parties are placing our posterity on a sacrifical slab, it just so happens that the current congress is doing it faster than the older republican congress did. Irregardless the wild spending MUST STOP. That was the intent of the parties. The logical extension of that message is to only tax what is needed to function the government, to not grow government further, and to reduce what we have grown to date. It's really quite easy to understand. If you've ever played Sim City, prosperity is assured if you get your city debt free with a balanced budget and low taxes. A delicate balance for sure, and it only happens when you make sacrifices up front with the understanding that the repair process takes time.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:03 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Yup. And everyone keeps forgetting it. We try to bring transparency to the debate and as always happens, if it gains any momentum at all, the 2 polarizing parties get themselves involved in some form or fashon to cloud the message.

I was reminded of Braveheart. When Robert Bruce's father learned of Wallace's rebellion he said: "Son. You will embrace this rebellion to win symphathies from our lands in the north. I will then curry English support by condemming it in our lands to the south" That's what happened to the Tea Parties. A core of americans disaffected by their non-representing representatives started a movement of rallies. Since the R's are the opposition party they right away jumped on the wagon when they saw the popular support we were getting. In response to that the D's condemmed it outright and mocked everything with "Teabagging" references and derision...quickly forgetting how disent was so very "patrotic" from 2003-2008.

Lost in the resultant fog was our message: "You cannot spend what you do not have" Both parties are placing our posterity on a sacrifical slab, it just so happens that the current congress is doing it faster than the older republican congress did. Irregardless the wild spending MUST STOP. That was the intent of the parties. The logical extension of that message is to only tax what is needed to function the government, to not grow government further, and to reduce what we have grown to date. It's really quite easy to understand. If you've ever played Sim City, prosperity is assured if you get your city debt free with a balanced budget and low taxes. A delicate balance for sure, and it only happens when you make sacrifices up front with the understanding that the repair process takes time."


Exactly.

Very well put.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


BSCM: Indeed, very well put.

We do indeed share some common ground, believe it or not.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:23 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"But you know Rue, I'll make it personal for you ... A panhandler approaches you 2 blocks from a homeless shelter and asks for money. He smells of booze. Do you give it to him?"

No. But then, I never give anyone money on the street - not people with tables set up to collect for 'keeping kids off drugs', not 'religious' organizations - not even the Salvation Army at x-mas.

I want to make sure that when I give money it will go where I want it to go. Which means I go home and research the organizations I donate to (not all of them 'charities'). And then I donate a LOT.

OTOH, aside from checking for personal risk (is he carrying a weapon and /or acting aggressive or erratic ?), my views about him (or her) would be pretty innocuous. Many men on the are veterans with PTSD. Many people on the street suffer from mental illness, and 'self-medicate' as a result. Many people on the street, even families, are there due to economic fallout. I would NEVER go so far as to say he should be tarred and feathered. Not even as hyperbole, not even to illustrate a point.

That YOU would jump to that extreme says something unflattering about your state of mind, and that of the people around you.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


"All the Tea Party protesters are nothing but RACISTS!" J.G.




J.G. - Spokesperson for the wise and sophisticated Left, interviewed by NBC Sunday as an expert on the subject.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 7:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

J.G. - Spokesperson for the wise and sophisticated Left, interviewed by NBC Sunday as an expert on the subject.


And speaking of spokespeople, here we see notable Republican spokesperson and one of the most influential evangelical leaders and male-prostitute-user Ted Haggard in a favorite position...




And here's "America's Mayor" and one-time Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani in his natural habitat...






Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:07 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Actual quote:

"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of tea-bagging rednecks. And there is no way around that."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of tea-bagging rednecks. And there is no way around that."


And this is why I hate liberals.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Actual quote:

"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of tea-bagging rednecks. And there is no way around that."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


Who are you more proud of Rue? The low-life skank who said it, or the in-the-tank, one-sided propagandists at NBC, who once again embarass a once-respected news network by airing a delusional mental case like JG? I'll bet you're proud of both. Does she have any proof to support her assinine statements? Of course not. Like you, she just knows everything.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Just pointing up inaccuracies as I find them.


And, if you want to be accurate, I'm sure you could find equally egregious comments made by tea-baggers.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"You can't spend what you don't have".

Well, tell that to banks, investment firms, hedge funds, and businesses which exist on credit (either giving or receiving). Also tell that to average person who can't buy a house or car without credit.

It seems to me there is a legitimate need for "credit". There is also a continuing misuse of credit, both for speculation AND as part of "monetary policy".

The underlying reason WHY we even NEED a "stimulous package" is because wealth has concentrated in the hands of very few. (The differences in wealth today had finally reached 1929 proportions. When you get so much $ is so few hands, money stops circulating and the economy tanks.)

The question is: Does it even MATTER that the government creates a huge deficit? For example, did it matter that the government ran a HUGE deficit during the Great Depression and WWII? If not, why not? Would it matter TODAY? If it does how do we get $ flowing again without incurring a deficit? How do we separate out legitimate debt from speculative and inflationary debt?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I see no tea-baggers have answered my questions.

Well, I'll just dangle this question a little longer and see if there are any takers.

If not, I'll just answer them myself!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:08 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, tell that to banks, investment firms, hedge funds, and businesses which exist on credit (either giving or receiving). Also tell that to average person who can't buy a house or car without credit.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges. The debt of the government is the supreme debt. There is no power higher to rely upon when a failure occurs. This is macroeconomics at it's most fundemental. Let me illistrate the ramifications of your different examples of groups wildly spending what they do not have.
1 person - Personal bankrupcy.
Small Business - Business bankrupcy with maybe 10-30 layoffs
Large Business - Same as above with hundreds of layoffs and impact on local economies
Megacorp - read the wiki entry for Enron
US government - Have you ever played Fallout?

The point is that the governments debt belongs to We The People. That's why the tea parties were held.

Quote:

There is also a continuing misuse of credit, both for speculation AND as part of "monetary policy".
On this I agree. It has existed as long as humanity has engaged in commerce. The East India Co. of the 18th century got itself in trouble several times in this fashion. One of the reasons the Tea Act of 1773 came about was because of croneyism twixt EIC and Parliment. The act was to serve in part to force monoply on EIC tea and at the same time tax it. The result would be certain tax revenue for England and forced sales of EIC tea to help provide that company with an 18th century "bailout". Unfortinately for EIC it was the tea itself that was "bailed out" into Boston harbor.
Quote:

The question is: Does it even MATTER that the government creates a huge deficit? For example, did it matter that the government ran a HUGE deficit during the Great Depression and WWII? If not, why not? Would it matter TODAY?

Answer: It matters on a titantic level. The value of our fiat currency is worth only what the worldwide reserve believes it to be worth. We think that just because we've sat atop the world economy since our grandparents were kids that it will always be that way. Let me illistrate something.

The country that has the strongest economy on the world stage is said to be the "World's Reserve". As we speak it is the USA in that position, but that wasn't always so. Each century before proffered a nation who rose to that level because they out-thought the previous one:

17th century: Spain. Spain outflanked all of Europe by hording tangibles looted from the americas. By the close of the 1600's they had so much bling all their wealth was stored in silver and gold...the goal of the era.

18th century: Holland. The dutch understood trading on a level not seen since the ancient greeks. With their prowess at it they were able to found powerful banks and outflank spain's wealth which gravitated to them. This is shown in HBO's John Adams when Adams in in Holland seeking a loan of 10 million Dutch Guilders for the US. The Dutch currency was the strongest in the world at the time.

19th century: England. England learned from Dutch prosperity and outdid them by adding to it a military. The British army in the 19th century was the strongest in the world and lead to a global empire.

20th Century: The US. The states were the first nation to understand that wealth would be vested in the nation that grew in tech faster than the others. Throughout the 20th century the USA was on the crest of the Tech wave.

21st Century: Just because we are on top doesn't mean it will be that way much longer. I fear that China has out-thought us by methodically buying up our debt over many decades. The day will come when asian powers will dictate American Policy. We did it to the English. They did it to the Dutch.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:17 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I see no tea-baggers have answered my questions.

That would be because you ask questions with long answers and I was typing.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:28 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I never give anyone money on the street - not people with tables set up to collect for 'keeping kids off drugs', not even the Salvation Army at x-mas.

Not even the salvation army huh?
Darn those do-gooder christians! Darn them to heck!

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Nope - not even to the 'Salvation' Army.

"THE SALVATION ARMY
WAY TO GIVING: DIRECT GIVING
The Salvation Army is one among the most well-known 100 charities of the world - Both individuals and enterprises make contributions directly to it.
TRANSPARENCY - B - Lack of transparency - Sum of money is contributed - but result is not fully measurable.
BENEFIT FOR THE BUSINESS - C - Contribution to Salvation Army gets mention in the press even if it is a one time contribution.
EXPENSES FOR RAISING FUNDS -B - Heavy expenses are incurred for raising funds."


"Forced Religion in Homeless Shelters
Homeless people often have to give up Freedom of Religion in exchange for food and shelter."


"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."

***************************************************************

I prefer St. Vincent DePaul when I give goods and money. Their help doesn't come with a dose of forced religion on the side.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BSCM- thanks for the thoughtful reply!!!!


My response, in a nutshell- yes, but, and.

Back later!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Salvation Army- biggest slumlord in LA. Fatcats on top.

I give to a women's shelter in my neighborhood, non-religious homeless shelters, and Habitat for Humanity.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Sig,

You SHOULD be behind the movement.

Less, to no, taxes. You keep what you earn, AND the roads are still paved.

The movement is not about a political party, as much as one would want to hijack it, or another would want to ridicule it. Its about US. The American PEOPLE.

We want an end to the Fed, an end to corruption, an end to hypocrisy and cronyism.

An end to b.s., and P.C.

The ability to defend ourselves, family and property with any tools necessary. Without fear of reprisal.

The right to speak our minds.

The right to worship as we see fit.

The right to say enough is enough. We don't want you in our homes, on our streets, in our bedrooms, or in our lives.

The right to have "War is not the Answer" mean something.

The right to keep nature clean and clear, while also saying no more Enrons.

The right to know that those next to us are our citizens, members of our country.

The right of the free states to decide how they want things to be run.

The right of the people to be free from harassment or bill collecting by so call "police officers".

The representatives, to actually represent what the people want, not their own interests.

In short...

Constitutional and Bill of Rights rule.




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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Less, to no, taxes. You keep what you earn, AND the roads are still paved."

It's called fantasy-land.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

We want an end to the Fed, an end to corruption, an end to hypocrisy and cronyism.
Get rid of government and leave the corporations alone? Shoot, man, corporations are the epitome of hypocrisy and cronyism. AND they absolutely want to rob you blind! That's the whole reason for their existance!

If you start by getting rid of corporations then I'll help you get rid of government. Sound fair?


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


How about we limit corporations AND the government? Both are necessary evils.

For now.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Corporations are absolutely not necessary.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of tea-bagging rednecks. And there is no way around that."


And this is why I hate liberals.



So you hate them because... they hate YOU?

Tell me again how that somehow makes you better than them?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Actual quote:

"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism, straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of tea-bagging rednecks. And there is no way around that."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


Who are you more proud of Rue? The low-life skank who said it, or the in-the-tank, one-sided propagandists at NBC, who once again embarass a once-respected news network by airing a delusional mental case like JG? I'll bet you're proud of both. Does she have any proof to support her assinine statements? Of course not. Like you, she just knows everything.



And who are YOU more proud of, Jongs? The low-life scumbag Dick Cheney, or the in-the-tank, one-sided propagandists at Fox, who once again embarrassed a never-respected news network by airing an "interview" with a delusional psychopath like Dick Cheney? I'll bet you're proud of both. Does he have any proof to support his asinine statements? Of course not. But like you, Jongsy, he just knows everything.

Your statement makes as much sense that way...



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:19 PM

BYTEMITE


I think Aristotle's quote is better translated not as "TOLERANCE is the virtue of a dying society," but "COMPLACENCY is the virtue of a dying society." The tolerance there refers not to tolerance or intolerance of marginalized groups, but to tolerance of the actions of the government, whatever those actions might be.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, tell that to banks, investment firms, hedge funds, and businesses which exist on credit (either giving or receiving). Also tell that to average person who can't buy a house or car without credit.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges. The debt of the government is the supreme debt. There is no power higher to rely upon when a failure occurs. This is macroeconomics at it's most fundemental. Let me illistrate the ramifications of your different examples of groups wildly spending what they do not have.
1 person - Personal bankrupcy.
Small Business - Business bankrupcy with maybe 10-30 layoffs
Large Business - Same as above with hundreds of layoffs and impact on local economies
Megacorp - read the wiki entry for Enron
US government - Have you ever played Fallout?

The point is that the governments debt belongs to We The People. That's why the tea parties were held.

Quote:

There is also a continuing misuse of credit, both for speculation AND as part of "monetary policy".
On this I agree. It has existed as long as humanity has engaged in commerce. The East India Co. of the 18th century got itself in trouble several times in this fashion. One of the reasons the Tea Act of 1773 came about was because of croneyism twixt EIC and Parliment. The act was to serve in part to force monoply on EIC tea and at the same time tax it. The result would be certain tax revenue for England and forced sales of EIC tea to help provide that company with an 18th century "bailout". Unfortinately for EIC it was the tea itself that was "bailed out" into Boston harbor.
Quote:

The question is: Does it even MATTER that the government creates a huge deficit? For example, did it matter that the government ran a HUGE deficit during the Great Depression and WWII? If not, why not? Would it matter TODAY?

Answer: It matters on a titantic level. The value of our fiat currency is worth only what the worldwide reserve believes it to be worth. We think that just because we've sat atop the world economy since our grandparents were kids that it will always be that way. Let me illistrate something.

The country that has the strongest economy on the world stage is said to be the "World's Reserve". As we speak it is the USA in that position, but that wasn't always so. Each century before proffered a nation who rose to that level because they out-thought the previous one:

17th century: Spain. Spain outflanked all of Europe by hording tangibles looted from the americas. By the close of the 1600's they had so much bling all their wealth was stored in silver and gold...the goal of the era.

18th century: Holland. The dutch understood trading on a level not seen since the ancient greeks. With their prowess at it they were able to found powerful banks and outflank spain's wealth which gravitated to them. This is shown in HBO's John Adams when Adams in in Holland seeking a loan of 10 million Dutch Guilders for the US. The Dutch currency was the strongest in the world at the time.

19th century: England. England learned from Dutch prosperity and outdid them by adding to it a military. The British army in the 19th century was the strongest in the world and lead to a global empire.

20th Century: The US. The states were the first nation to understand that wealth would be vested in the nation that grew in tech faster than the others. Throughout the 20th century the USA was on the crest of the Tech wave.

21st Century: Just because we are on top doesn't mean it will be that way much longer. I fear that China has out-thought us by methodically buying up our debt over many decades. The day will come when asian powers will dictate American Policy. We did it to the English. They did it to the Dutch.



Good answer! And you're right - we ARE in a prime position to lose our status as Number One, and the genius of the Chinese approach is that they've done this without really firing a shot. We foolishly assumed that we'd end up in a shooting war with them, not an economic war. And we assumed they'd play by the rules we expected them to play by.

As with England losing its supremacy and the Dutch before them, you're only as good as your ability to out-think the other guy!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think Aristotle's quote is better translated not as "TOLERANCE is the virtue of a dying society," but "COMPLACENCY is the virtue of a dying society." The tolerance there refers not to tolerance or intolerance of marginalized groups, but to tolerance of the actions of the government, whatever those actions might be.



That sounds more like it. Now THAT is an idea I can get behind!

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... we ARE in a prime position to lose our status as Number One ..."

It's a done deal. But somebody sure made a huge profit on it.

"A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:44 PM

BYTEMITE


Except Blue Sun Company Man beat me to explaining it first.

But good thread, people. I admire the tea party movement and the meaning behind it, and I wish we could figure out some way to take it back from the corporations and government.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Give it ten days.

-F

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You are trying to compare apples and oranges. The debt of the government is the supreme debt. There is no power higher to rely upon when a failure occurs. This is macroeconomics at it's most fundemental.
I think government debt is categorically different, but because of that it might follow different rules.
Quote:

The point is that the governments debt belongs to We The People. That's why the tea parties were held.
And what about the fact that health insurance companies are bleeding us and the rest of the economy dry, and actually killing peeps while they're at it? You're only addressing government because it's EASY. It's MEANT to be responsive to the people... it's a democracy for chrissake!

TEA PARTIES?? Cute, but shooting yourself in the foot. The REAL targets for change are far harder. They leave you NO ROOM to disagree or escape. When I see a demonstration against AIG, Blue Cross, GM, or Shitibank, THEN we'll have gotten somewhere!



more later

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:21 PM

BYTEMITE


I think issues of health care, education, you know, the social programs based on compassion... I think that they won't be fixed until the power of decision making and sovereignty is returned to a local level. Once you have the community working right, THEN you can start trying to work on coalitions at a larger level.

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I think issues of health care, education, you know, the social programs based on compassion... I think that they won't be fixed until the power of decision making and sovereignty is returned to a local level."

Maybe not even then. In looking up the value of 'charities' v government programs, I found an interesting statistic - voluntary charities would have to increase over 10X their current level to provide the same benefits as government programs. Furthermore, people tend to donate locally, which means that wealthy communities would have generous funding for people who are relatively well off, while poorer communities would have meager resources for those who really need them.

What would be the result of such a system ? Britain was there, did that. Did we learn nothing ? Did we not learn that a system DESIGNED to make some people extremely rich at the expense of the many will inevitably generate masses of the poor, who can neither help each other, nor who will be helped by the rich ?

Would this example be more telling ?
Quote:

Published on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 by the Belfast Telegraph (UK)
1,500 Farmers Commit Mass Suicide in India

Over 1,500 farmers in an Indian state committed suicide after being driven to debt by crop failure, it was reported today.
The agricultural state of Chattisgarh was hit by falling water levels.
"The water level has gone down below 250 feet here. It used to be at 40 feet a few years ago," Shatrughan Sahu, a villager in one of the districts, told Down To Earth magazine
"Most of the farmers here are indebted and only God can save the ones who do not have a bore well."
Mr Sahu lives in a district that recorded 206 farmer suicides last year. Police records for the district add that many deaths occur due to debt and economic distress.



BTW - for those who really are in love with the current system - wait till China really gets going. If you never wondered what life was like when someone else was running the place for THEIR benefit at YOUR expense, you will have a wonderful opportunity to find out.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To get back to tea parties and taxes....

Taxes are NOT our biggest problem. It's how those taxes were used: to make the world safe for capitalism, so we could get screwed down to the lowest wage possible. To bail out the mega- wealthy. To prop up monopolies and gigantic profits everywhere. To turn everyone into slaves, who look up and only dimly perceive that "the system" which benefits 0.00001% of the population is an artificial construct, a CHOICE, not a force of nature!

The answer isn't to get rid of taxes. The answer is to take back YOUR government, because government is the only entity large enough to take on the even bigger entities.


Do you think that by bringing the house down around yourself that you'll reset the game and go back to a state of equality, so we can all start over again? If you want to see a great example of how that worked, one which was already pointed out, look at Russia: Their government's collapse didn't equalize wealth or create freedom. While most peeps economically failed (even tho they were distilling vodka on their own!) and died young, SOME peeps got very very rich. If you think you're going to achieve freedom by creating a failed state, dropping down to the primitive level of distilling vodka in your back yard, or getting rid of the one entity that can take on the OTHER big oppressor... then you've just been beaten. You've let the real PTB go on their merry way- skating lightly over the sea of misery that they created, using their unimaginable (and yes, I mean unimaginable,.. most peeps can't even IMAGINE that level of wealth) to pluck from the miserable world all the fruits which their wealth entitles them.

Is THAT the future you aspire to?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:44 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:"for those who really are in love with the current system - wait till China really gets going.
During his presidency, Teddy Roosevelt stated that he wanted the United States to become the primary world power in the 20th Century. To that end he oversaw an expansion of our navy to levels we'd never seen before. Before he left office he ordered that the new battle fleet sail around the world as a show of strength. This event is now looked back upon by historians as america's "coming out" as they stepped onto the 1st world stage for the very first time. Soon afterwards the American Dollar replaced the Pound Stirling as the World's Reserve Currency.

We all witnessed a stunning display in China last August. The opening ceremonies for the 2008 summer games were astonishing to say the least. China was conveying two messages in the imagery. They nodded to their rich ancient history in the 1st part of the show before ending with a loud pronouncement of 21st century power in the latter half. Like Teddy Roosevelt, China was telling the world that they were now a 1st world power, and growing. The days of masses of lower class humanity riding bikes everywhere in the 2nd world city of Bejing were over.

When the US fleet sailed the world, the global English empire was in it's decline. Colonies in Africa were declaring independence. India was trending that way. (recall the british trying to hold on to India in Indiana Jones: The Temple of Doom) Slowly the English star was setting to be replaced by the American. Now we see a rising Chinese beacon taking it's place in the center of the world stage of debt ownership power. And what is their primary debt ownership? Why that would be US Treasuries! How strange that just one month after the opening ceremonies, the american banking crisis began. Sept 2008 will be regarded by historians, I think, as the beginning of the american decline. The crisis led to TARP, which led to bailouts, which led to stimilus packages year-after-year, which piled debt higher and higher in unsustainable fashions, until the dollar lost it's value as the World's Reserve currency. When america is finally in a position where the intrest alone on the debt will be more than the peoples ablility to pay in taxes, america's star will set. China, the owner of the debt, will be the worlds power.

Ancient hebrews knew what they were writting when they said in the Torah "The Borrower is Slave to the Lender". It's a human truth, as ugly as it is.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The value of a currency depends on the productivity of the economy behind it, relative to other economies.

That's why American post-WWII debt didn't mean much: relative to the bombed-out husks of Europe, Japan, and Russia, and the underdeveloped state of China, the USA was the ONLY industrial power, and therefore the only currency which would buy ... well, anything. That's why national debt, by itself, doesn't mean much if your economy can make good on all that currency floating around.

NOT ALL DEBT IS CREATED EQUAL. If debt is used to increase productivity or reduce balance of trade deficits (for example, investing in wind turbines to reduce oil imports) it will not cause inflation. That is a legitimate reason for debt.

However, I would like you to think ahead on the whole drive to maximize productivity. You can only maximize productivity by automation or by driving wages down. If all nations strive to maximize productivity with a goal of making their currency No 1, they will have gone a long way to impoverishing their own populace. And for what? At this point, 70,000 people can make a million cars. One farmer can feed 100 people. What does everyone else do for a living? There is NO REAL NEED to improve productivity. We are well past the point of unending, backbreaking labor. Increased productivity is only beneficial to capitalists because it maximizes profit by minimizing costs. So, if an unending increase in productivity is not sustainable and should not be a goal in-and-of-itself, what is??? How do we stabilize our economic role in the world without turning into a third-world country?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Sept 2008 will be regarded by historians, I think, as the beginning of the american decline.


BSCM, I find myself in general agreement with most of your post above, but I have to take issue with this statement. Those would have to be VERY naive historians to believe such a thing. September 2008 might be seen by the great unwashed as the tipping point, but anyone with an inkling of understanding knew this was coming and saw the dominoes starting to lean, if not outright fall, at least two to three years prior to that date. And in reality, it was pretty self-evident immediately after 9/11, when the President told us as a nation that our patriotic duty was to "go shopping". Not to sacrifice, not to pitch in with rubber drives or victory gardens, but to go shopping - that was to be our role in the coming war. If nothing else ever shocked you or opened your eyes, that should have told you that we were feebly and futilely trying to hold up a house of (credit) cards with nothing more substantial than a wish, a hope, and a decent credit rating.

September 2008 wasn't when it started - it was when it could no longer be ignored!

But to digress for a moment, I also wanted to take this opportunity to say "thank you" for engaging in a REAL, SUBSTANTIVE discussion on these issues. You've resisted the name-calling, you've refused to get into the mode of "if you're not in 100% agreement with me, you must be in 100% opposition to me!" In short, you've proven yourself both a worthy adversary AND a worthwhile ally.

This is what Frem speaks of when he talks about using our differences to forge alliances.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:31 AM

BYTEMITE


China's been undervaluing their own money for years, not only to attract US business manufacturing on the cheap, but also just waiting for the chance to take advantage when America's dollar really stumbles.

China setting their currency to its actual value, at the moment the US dollar is at it's lowest... China could very well cause that to become a point of no return. In the very least, America could become to China what economically Britain is now to America.

Maybe that's not such a bad thing, because the US as The Super Power and Morality Champion of the entire world gets a little pricey on the casualty side. On the other hand, China as The Super Power, with its human rights record... *shiver*

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Rue: True enough, clearly there would have to be some removal of the wealth of the oppressors before power could even be taken back, let alone returned to the community.

THIS government is not the means to do that, though. You can say you're going to tax the rich, and heck, I like the idea, but ultimately they're just going to exploit the loopholes they've helped to create.

Any redistribution of wealth that the federal government suggests not only is probably just an illusion to soothe the discontented larger population, but probably in the end will just serve to widen the gap between wealthy and poor. That, and I don't trust the government when it gets into a confiscating mood.

The National Socialists (Nazis) ended up being fascists and put the real socialists into concentration camps, you know. All of their seizures weren't made with THE PEOPLE in mind, to redistribute the wealth, but THE NATION.

Fortunately, I like to think that the powers that be will eventually screw themselves over and take themselves out. War kind of messes with my sense of morals.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


China can't do to us anything that we don't allow to happen. We have abundant natural resources - including food and wind- if we use them wisely. Militarily... they can't touch us without extreme cost. And they can only turn us into a third-world country if we play their game.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Sure seems like our feet are tapping while they're strumming those instruments and playing those flutes. Especially with corporations pretty much dictating our policy.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


If we get into the battle of the cheapest production, we will surely lose. Until we get to the realization that the captains of industry and commerce are selling us down the river we'll continue tapping our feet.

I have several ideas on what we can do quickly, but I have to get to work.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:43 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I had changed my sig line for the one post to read this: "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with" but it disappeared.

Anyway, that was the point of my post. Capitalists are NOT interested in production, in providing goods, in innovation --- NOT in society, in the environment, in long-term viability -- NOT even in long-term business plans. They are interested in profit - the more the faster, the better - by any means necessary. That is ultimate capitalism: money making more money.

That is how WE have handed China its new role as our master.

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20090409/pl_rasmussen/capitalismsoci
alism20090409


rasmussenreports.com Rasmussenreports.com – Thu Apr 9, 8:37 am ET
Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.

Adults under 30 are essentially evenly divided: 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided. Thirty-somethings are a bit more supportive of the free-enterprise approach with 49% for capitalism and 26% for socialism. Adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism, and just 13% of those older Americans believe socialism is better.

Investors by a 5-to-1 margin choose capitalism. As for those who do not invest, 40% say capitalism is better while 25% prefer socialism.

There is a partisan gap as well. Republicans - by an 11-to-1 margin - favor capitalism. Democrats are much more closely divided: Just 39% say capitalism is better while 30% prefer socialism. As for those not affiliated with either major political party, 48% say capitalism is best, and 21% opt for socialism.


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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I have several ideas on what we can do quickly, but I have to get to work.



Sell-out! Capitalist tool!



(By the way, I'm typing this while I'm at work.)

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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

No, I'm a gubmint drone!


Anyway... before I say what I think we should do, specifically, I think we should sit down and think about what WE WANT. Not what we don't want, or are afraid of, but what we really, really want.

And I'm going to start a new thread on this cause its' getting way too long!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:34 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
In short, you've proven yourself both a worthy adversary AND a worthwhile ally.

Well, I appreciate the comment. When one straddles idealogy, one becomes both. It is the tragedy of our modern polarized society that we are instructed to only debate in binary ways. Red or Blue. Choose!!

Well, I choose the third color in the flag.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 3:20 PM

KWIKLIP


FYI, the person you are addressing is "Kwicko", not "kwiklip". That's me, it has been for the past 10+ years. This is an interesting thread and I will be posting in the future. I don't want to be referred to in an inflammatory context that I have never even read.

kwiklip

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