REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Right wingers donate more to charity , and it's not even close!

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, April 19, 2009 09:32
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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:55 AM

SERGEANTX


This argument is largely superficial. The issue only comes up in response to charges that those who are opposed to state mandated charity are stingy, or that the needy will be without recourse if charity isn't dictated by law. Regardless of the numbers being tossed around here, that clearly isn't the case. The real question, as usual, is control. Do we really need top down government institutions to take care of society's needs? In some cases, yes. But I'd say that most of the time we don't. And when we don't such programs do more to get in the way of civil cooperation and community than they do to promote it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh see - thought the issue was that this was just more of Rap's phonied-up liberal bashing. The guy's scraped the bottom of the barrel so hard, he's got splinters under his fingernails.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Well, the article was by George Will, not Rap.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


This!
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Church donations are not necessarily charity donations.


Very true.

Some day when I'm more sane and stable I want to start and run a non-profit. I have it all planned in my head.

---
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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:11 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
Some day when I'm more sane and stable I want to start and run a non-profit. I have it all planned in my head.



I'm pretty good at the "non-profit" part. Let me know if you need a hand.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Well, the article was by George Will, not Rap."

Posted by Rap, written by Will, about a 'study' done by Arthur C. Brooks, to be accurate.

And so ? Rap posted it here and argued for it.

Do you have a point ?


And, btw, absent CHURCH donations, liberals give FAR more. Apparently they don't have such an all-fired faith in government to solve problems that they're willing to coast along on that assumption. So, yeah, your post is wrong, too.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't think you should absent church donations.

People donate to Church because they feel that the Church will perform good works in the spirit of the God or Gods they believe in.

People donate to other charities because they feel that the other charities will perform good works in the spirit of the moral or moral imperatives they believe in.

Same pizza, different slice.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:26 AM

SERGEANTX


It's tempting to discount the church donations. In a certain sense they're not much different from liberals who think they're charitable because the vote for programs that force others to give. But still, at the core, they're voluntary donations, where taxes aren't.

In any case, I still think it's petty to quibble about whether liberals or conservatives are more charitable, or nicer, or more fun at parties. The question is whether charity is the proper role of government.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"promote the general welfare ..."

I'd say yes, since religious, community and private charity didn't seem to be getting the job done, and widespread poverty lead to social unrest.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:57 AM

SERGEANTX


And I'd say, in most cases, no.

Government is a proper solution for problems that require consensus decisions. It's an improper solution for problems that don't. Forcing a once-size-fits-all, majority-rules solution on problems that don't need such a draconian approach limits our options and puts all our eggs in one basket.

Turning what would otherwise be voluntary charity into a tax obligation diminishes personal responsibility and encourages dependency. And by that I'm referring to the responsibility and dependency of the givers, not the receivers of charity. People who assume the government will take care of everything are delegating their personal responsibility to their community and forming dependency on state institutions to care for their neighbors and relatives. I think a community is healthier when we assume those responsibilities personally rather than institutionally.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Remember Jane Eyre ? Oliver Twist ?

Though those are fiction, they were nonetheless accurate. Or if you want - prisoner ships to Australia and indentured servants to America. That's what happens when you depend on volunteerism and private charity.

Your 'solution' doesn't work. To enforce YOUR one-size fits all 'solution' is to insist on massive poverty in a economic system that is concerned only about maximizing profit.


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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:18 AM

SERGEANTX


Voluntary solutions will represent the will of the people in the most accurate, egalitarian way possible. People will give exactly as much as they think they should. Sometimes that will result in levels of giving that you don't like, and I think that's the crux of the problem. It's about control.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I would tend to agree. Fearing widespread poverty and social discord in the absence of government assisted charity is to fear that people are selfish bastards.

Which may often be true.

But does that make it right to bribe people into selfless behavior?

I'm not sure that government should be involved in morality.

On the other hand, I worry about a world where we don't reward positive morals. What would it look like?

Call me on the fence, leaning towards the prime directive.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It's tempting to discount the church donations
Especially since I used to donate to a church and I KNOW where those donations went to! There's a reason why I don't donate to ANY religous group, and that's bc the church donations either wind up building pretty churches in rich neighborhoods (The Crystal Cathedral), maintaining preachers in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed,
Quote:

Joel Osteen has not yet had major sex scandals, drug scandals or molestation scandals like the other megachurch pastors: Pat Robertson, Al Sharpton, Ted Haggard, Paul Barnes, D.E. (Earl) Paulk, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, William Dodd and too many others to possibly mention here.... In his sermons, Joel Osteen does not talk about God. Joel Osteen instead talks about almost everything except God. He has a television ministry, a massive church, $43 million a year in tithes and another $36 million a year in mailed in donations, but he won’t talk about God. He, like Pastor Kevin Gerald, talks about more pleasant topics, such as donating money to him and positive thinking.
promoting their particular lunacy (Scientology Salvation Army- the biggest slumlord in LA), OR WORSE:
Quote:

Even More Evangelist Preachers Arrested on Sex Charges; Tony Alamo Trial Set for May; Ted Haggard Looking “Haggard”, Promoting HBO Documentary.
*Joe Barron of the huge Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, who was arrested for soliciting sex with minors over the internet.
*Ted Haggard, the head preacher of New Life Ministries in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and friend of James Dobson, leader of the ultra-right, super anti-gay, Focus on the Family.
* James Howard Bell, KY, pastor of the Refuge Temple Church of God in Christ, was arrested for abuse of a child under 16 and determined to be HIV+.
* Lawrence Webber, NC, a preacher and member of the Reeder Memorial Baptist Church, was charged with felony sex crimes against children under 13.
* Gilyard, FL, pastor of the Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church, was arrested for sending lewd messages to underage girls, after 20 years of accusations of indecent conduct. Gilyard was purported to be one of the up and coming leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention.
*Leroy Ruedes Cruz, TX, pastor of Grace Fellowship, a pentecostal-type, strip mall church, was arrested for solicitation of a minor over the internet.
* Shellman, George–Harold Lasseter, Jr., pastor of the Shellman United Methodist Church, was arrested at his church on child pornography charges.


www.tonyalamonews.com/870/11909-even-more-evangelist-preachers-arreste
d-on-sex-charges-tony-alamo-trial-set-for-may-ted-haggard-looking-%E2%80%9Chaggard%E2%80%9D-promoting-hbo-documentary.php
Quote:

TX - Here in the gentle hills of north Texas, televangelist Kenneth Copeland has built a religious empire teaching that God wants his followers to prosper. Over the years, a circle of Copeland’s relatives and friends have done just that, The Associated Press has found. They include the brother-in-law with a lucrative deal to broker Copeland’s television time, the son who acquired church-owned land for his ranching business and saw it more than quadruple in value, and board members who together have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for speaking at church events. Church officials say no one improperly benefits through ties to Copeland’s vast evangelical ministry, which claims more than 600,000 subscribers in 134 countries to its flagship “Believer’s Voice of Victory” magazine.... “There are far too many relatives here,” said Frances Hill, a University of Miami law professor who specializes in nonprofit tax law. “There’s too much money sloshing around and too much of it sloshing around with people with overlapping affiliations and allegiances by either blood or friendship or just ties over the years. There are red flags all over these relationships.”


http://imablogger.net/2008/07/28/megachurch-televangelist-families-are
-prospering-too-coincidence
/

Just google "megachurches+ million+ dollars+ televangelist", and you'll see why I personally would discount about 90% of church-giving as being effective charitable donations.


FWIW, when I give to charity I check it against www.charitynavigator.com.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'm not sure that government should be involved in morality.
Then why create laws against killing, or stealing, or polluting? Why limit a company's responsibility as fiduciary to its stockholders? Why create copyrights?

For better or worse, government is an expression of what kinds of behavior people collectively agree to allow and disallow, reward or punish, and those decisions are intrinsically based on what we think is "right" or "wrong"


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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:17 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I'm not sure that government should be involved in morality.
Then why create laws against killing, or stealing, or polluting?



Because those are actions that, while also immoral, violate people's rights. I think that Anthony was referring to the concept of "legislating morality". We don't expect the government to force people into virtuous behavior - just to protect us from those who would victimize others.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:18 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I don't think you should absent church donations.

People donate to Church because they feel that the Church will perform good works in the spirit of the God or Gods they believe in.

People donate to other charities because they feel that the other charities will perform good works in the spirit of the moral or moral imperatives they believe in.

Same pizza, different slice.

--Anthony


I would disagree. People donate to their church, partly because it's expected (when the collection plate comes around) and partly to keep it, their social life and their community going. Is that all that different from me giving money to my martial arts class, that uses that money to keep the class going, keep the centre in repair, and also to build centres in places like Thailand that then give work and homes to people who otherwise wouldn't have it? Do I get to declare my martial arts fees as a charitable donation too? Or is it only if my social activity that also gives to charity happens to be religiously motivated that I get to do so?
Quote:

But does that make it right to bribe people into selfless behavior?

You mean like "be good and you go to heaven"?

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Because those are actions that, while also immoral, violate people's rights.
The construct of "peoples rights" is an intrinsic expression of what we think of as "right" and "wrong". In fact, the word "right" is the basis of the words "rights".

There are no immutable "human rights". It's whatever our society (often steered by a common religion) deems to be fair and just. What we think of as normal and intrinsic or desireable (equal rights for women, individualism, property rights, secularism, or what-have-you) other societies and governments would view as abnormal, perverse, unfair, unjust.

The choices we make AFA morality, distribution of resources, rights and so forth are just that: CHOICES.
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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:23 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
People donate to their church, partly because it's expected (when the collection plate comes around) and partly to keep it, their social life and their community going.



Isn't that a major impetus for charitable giving in general?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:24 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Fearing widespread poverty and social discord in the absence of government assisted charity is to fear that people are selfish bastards."

I think one can show that RICH people are selfish bastards who don't give enought to change the situation ! It's prima facie evident.


But more than that - any society is all about 'morals' and distribution of resources. We live in a system that does that already. And it's no more 'free' than anywhere else in the world.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Isn't that a major impetus for charitable giving in general?
No. Usually when people give to charity the money doesn't wind up back in their community. It often goes to a distant location, or a group of people which have no effect on the donor.



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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:27 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Because those are actions that, while also immoral, violate people's rights.
The construct of "peoples rights" is an intrinsic expression of what we think of as "right" and "wrong". In fact, the word "right" is the basis of the words "rights".



Yeah... semantic arguments tend to go nowhere, especially here. I'm talking about a distinction between laws which protect freedoms and those that coerce desired behaviors. That's the distinction (I think) that Anthony was making.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:29 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Isn't that a major impetus for charitable giving in general?


Only if you want to include going down the pub as a charitable donation.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:30 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Isn't that a major impetus for charitable giving in general?
No. Usually when people give to charity the money doesn't wind up back in their community. It often goes to a distant location, or a group of people which have no effect on the donor.



Oh, well I disagree wholeheartedly, and would have no interest in donating to a charity that wasn't helping my community. That said, I define my community at various breadths, from my family, to my neighborhood, to my nation, to my world.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:30 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Isn't that a major impetus for charitable giving in general?


Only if you want to include going down the pub as a charitable donation.



Not sure what you mean.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yeah... semantic arguments tend to go nowhere, especially here.
Not sematic- theoretical. You haven't seen my point apparently
Quote:

I'm talking about a distinction between laws which protect freedoms and those that coerce desired behaviors. That's the distinction (I think) that Anthony was making.
One person's freedom is another's oppression. For example, there is a famous quote: "Property is theft". (Please google it in quotes to find the entire history. ) Creating such a thing a property rights (There's that troublesome word again- "rights") means that goods and resources which may have been commonly available now have become unavailable to the many. Be very wary of the word "rights". It implies an intrinsic, natural, inevitable framework of right and wrong which simply doesn't exist.

BTW- I see no distinction between "protecting rights" and "coercing desired behaviors". Perhaps the distinction that you INTEND to make is one in which a person is "prohibited from" doing something as opposed to "coerced into doing" something. I STILL don't see a distinction, as for example you can prohibit a slave from running away. It's possible to state any enforced action as a prohibition.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:39 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
One person's freedom is another's oppression. For example, there is a famous quote: "Property is theft". (Please google it in quotes to find the entire history. )


Interesting. I'm wondering if that was an influence on Orwell...

Quote:

Be very wary of the word "rights". It implies an intrinsic, natural, inevitable framework which simply doesn't exist.

Ok. The meaning seems pretty clear to me, but given that it seems to be mean something else to you, I'll try to avoid it in our discussions.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

That said, I define my community at various breadths, from my family, to my neighborhood, to my nation, to my world.
While the Western religions (Judaism, Christianity amd Islam) tend to define THEIR communities narrowly, as either "their church" (specifically the location of worship), their spiritiual leader (perhaps a televangelist or immam) or "their religion".
Quote:

Interesting. I'm wondering if that was an influence on Orwell...
I think more like dialetical thought or yin-yang. You can't have dark without light. You can't give someone rights to something without taking it away from someone else. There used to be "the commmons"- a place that nobody owned where a village would pasture their horses. That kind of resource wuld not exist in a system which required that everything be defined by property rights.
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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Not sure what you mean.


Pub Culture over here has placed the local pub at the heart of the community and social life of that community at least as much as the local church traditionally. Which is part of the reason the temperance movement went after pubs so vehemently in the 1800's, and also why they failed so completely. Now Pubs in smaller more traditional communities, like the one I grew up in, are probably more dependent on the pub, which I worked in for a time, for the centre of the community and social life. So if all it takes for being a charitable donation is to "support your social life and community", then by that standard going into a pub and getting blitzed is an extremely charitable act, at least here.

Works for me, makes me one of the most charitable people on this Earth and I didn't even know it.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Who keeps changing the thread title ? Every time I look, it's different.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:50 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Who keeps changing the thread title ? Every time I look, it's different.

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Heh.. I'll go out on a limb and say, "A liberal?"


Actually, it's hard to say. Once someone starts monkeying with it, it cascades - because if you edit a previous post, the title reverts to whatever the title was the time of the original post, unless you edit it.


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:03 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I didn't know that ... So, if I post and the title is QWERTY, and go back and edit the post and update - the title goes back to QWERTY ?

OH ! dear.

AHEM !

NEVER mind !

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:11 AM

SERGEANTX


Just to be clear, the only reason I know ANYTHING about such subtleties is because ChrisIsAll told me.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
The question is whether charity is the proper role of government.



Interesting stats on this in the book.

In 1996, people were asked to respond to this statement "The government has a responsibilityto reduce income inequity". They were also asked about their charitable giving. Here's some results based on their response to the statement and their average giving in dollars.

Agree Strongly

All gifts - 140
Secular gifts only - 66
Religious giving - 133


Agree

All gifts - 320
Secular gifts only - 139
Religious giving - 129


Neither

All gifts - 398
Secular gifts only - 132
Religious giving - 317



Disagree

All gifts - 978
Secular gifts only - 389
Religious giving - 598



Disagree Strongly

All gifts - 1637
Secular gifts only - 591
Religious giving - 903


Data from the General Social Survey cited earlier.

So it appears that the people who want to give away other people's money are less likely to give away their own. Now, per the text, the folk who want to reduce income inequality do earn slightly less than the folks who don't (13%). This doesn't seem to cover the over 1000% difference in the extremes.




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:10 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So it appears that the people who want to give away other people's money are less likely to give away their own.


Or that people who don't want the government to tax them, say they give more money to charity...

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:24 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Posted by Rap, written by Will, about a 'study' done by Arthur C. Brooks, to be accurate.



So. Have you, or are you going to, read Mr. Brooks' book (as I am currently doing), or are you just going to make assumptions based on your prejudices? Surely you could find a copy in your local library, as I did.

I doubt you'll go to the trouble.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


It must be nice to be retired. As for myself, I have to work.

If I have time to get around to it, I might. Or, maybe not. It depends on what else is happening at the time.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Voluntary solutions will represent the will of the people in the most accurate, egalitarian way possible. People will give exactly as much as they think they should. Sometimes that will result in levels of giving that you don't like, and I think that's the crux of the problem. It's about control.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



Well, yes and no. Do you remember Live Aid? It raised MILLIONS to help the starving in Ethiopia. It was strictly voluntary, but it opened the eyes of the world to the problem, and actually kicked governments and the UN in the ass and got them DOING SOMETHING instead of pretending the problem didn't exist.

So voluntary efforts are great, IF you can get the word out in the first place that there is a NEED for voluntary giving to help with a particular problem.

So in a very real way, voluntary solutions will represent the AWARENESS of the people in the most accurate, egalitarian way possible.

Just something to ponder...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:23 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
If I have time to get around to it, I might. Or, maybe not. It depends on what else is happening at the time.



Then maybe you shouldn't criticize if you don't have the time to be informed?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:47 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So in a very real way, voluntary solutions will represent the AWARENESS of the people in the most accurate, egalitarian way possible.

Just something to ponder...



I see what you mean. But notice I'm not saying the voluntary approach is the best way to solve a given problem. Just that it will better express the willingness of a population to help. If that willingness is wanting, so be it.

I guess it depends on how you look at democracy. Some would contend that majority rule somehow represents the will of the people. But all it really represents is the will of the majority (and even then, only the majority of voters). Voluntary solutions represent the will of everyone, and in relative measure. When we can afford that approach, I think it's more respectful of personal sovereignty and dignity. Sometimes we can't - war, disaster, plague - and arguably (settle down, Frem) authoritarian measures are called for. But in general we abuse the hell out of democracy to solve problems. It shouldn't be a tool to get one over on the other guy, even if the other guy is "greedy capitalist".

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:09 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.

"There's a lady who's sure, all that glitters is gold and she's buying a Stairway to Heaven"

- Led Zeppilin


SGG

Tawabawho?

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:08 PM

FREMDFIRMA


You know, taxing someone into poverty, and then taxing them some more to fund programs supposed to raise them out of it doesn't exactly sound like a logically sound idea to me.

Maybe if we didn't pauperize folks with the taxes in the first damn place....

Just a thought.

As for "Authoritarian" leadership in a crisis, our little collective operates more by swarm theory meritocracy than anything else, but one thing we've learned from operating that way...

When the shit REALLY hits the fan, everyone who doesn't have a clue starts lookin at the person they think most likely to have one, and if enough of em are lookin at the *same* person, that person winds up in charge whether they want the job or not, cause *someone* has to make a decision, and even a bad decision is worse than NO decision during a crisis, cause it gets folk moving and motivated, which can be adjusted on the fly to a better plan.

Usually that someone winds up being me, by virtue of experience, reputation and useful contacts, but not necessarily always, especially in a case where use of force might be counterproductive, since they know damn well concerning certain groups I'm likely to try some even when it ain't exactly warranted.

I take orders as good as I give em though, and when someone else has a better handle on the situation, unless they blow it in a major way, it's all their show.

This is where many orgs, the military in particular, totally screw up, dismissing out of hand someone who just MIGHT have a better grip on the situation merely due to their lack of rank or seniority - if you ever wanna know the worst possible WRONG way to do something, ask the Army how they'd do it.


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
If I have time to get around to it, I might. Or, maybe not. It depends on what else is happening at the time.



Then maybe you shouldn't criticize if you don't have the time to be informed?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Maybe she had to; maybe her hands were tied, and it was politically expedient...



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Maybe she had to; maybe her hands were tied, and it was politically expedient...



Mike




Trying on the Troll hat, are we?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:43 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


All you assholes - especially Geezer - I didn't criticize the study. I know, this is your way of painting me as something I am not.

Go back a READ my posts - if you actually know how to read - OK ?

And

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You know, taxing someone into poverty, and then taxing them some more to fund programs supposed to raise them out of it doesn't exactly sound like a logically sound idea to me.
Me neither, so it's a good thing that people AREN'T taxed into poverty! (And anyone who says they are is wrong!)


---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Me neither, so it's a good thing that people AREN'T taxed into poverty! (And anyone who says they are is wrong!)

Excuse me miss!

Remind me, if you will, who fairly recently got run out of a career they actually freakin enjoyed because of an inability to make a living for the fucking taxes, including fuel prices, a good percentage of which is tax as well ?

Remind me, if you will, who said these things ?

Quote:

As a coda, there's no way in hell imma take pure malicious sophistry nicely from a shitheel that tried to shovel the concept that the rich pay so much tax and the poor almost none, on a day I was fucking starving cause I couldn't afford food in spite of working a fifty hour week due to the fact that an independant contractor in this job that both local (Engler) and national politicians have virtually destroyed which carries a tax bite of almost forty fucking percent of the total income BEFORE expenses...



In reference to the phrase; "do the poor pay taxes? No, they don't."
Quote:


Thirty four PERCENT, damn you.

And motor fuel tax, property taxes, utility taxes, sales taxes, every fuckin penny, coming or going the bastards take a bite, and without fail just after april they demand MORE cause I ain't gotten shit back for near a decade, just a bill, and folks makin far more than me whine about how us poor pay no taxes, while I eat jiffy biscuits for dinner cause that's all I can afford on what I got left after the Gov gets done bending me over the sawhorse...

And hearing some shitheel who no doubt makes more than I do, and who no doubt actually had something better to eat recently tell me the poor don't pay taxes makes me wanna ram their keyboard up their stupid, ignorant, uninformed ass crossways, cause I am right sick of hearing it, BEING one of those poor who supposedly "doesn't pay taxes" and here I am gettin royally raped on the fucking things.

Don't shovel that shit to me, especially not in the middle of a decade long relationship crumbling cause I don't make enough money no matter how I bust ass cause the more I make, the more they take, and not when I have to leave my chosen line of work for one I dislike cause it makes more money, and busting ass at both currently which means taking an even BIGGER tax hit since that eliminates the single job deduction till I get the transition covered.

Frankly, every time I hear that line of shit I wanna rip someones spine out, not even when I was fourteen and officially a dependant did I "get it all back" and that was well over twenty YEARS ago, it's always been a lie, a bald fiction to gloss over the fact that the working poor take such a tax bite that it's actually in many cases more sensible to go to the very government that pauperised them and beg for a handout.

Maybe if we didn't friggin impoverish them via taxes in the first damned place, they wouldn't NEED that goddamn handout, a lot of em wouldn't anyways, and we'd save a buck on all the folks chugging at the Govt trough, all the salarys of those who count, collect and enforce it coming it, and count, account for, and dole it out in the opposite direction, all of whom take their own little nibble as it passes till there's hardly nothin left.

It's not charity to rob someone, chew the take down to the bone, and then throw it back to them, it's just sheer meanness, and wasteful meanness at that.

And us working stiffs don't even get the damned bone back, how nice is that ?

And then we gotta listen to this bullshit lie over and over, while we count pennies and suck on ramen, and the Gov plans to squeeze us even harder to bail out their rich fatcat friends who've squeezed us dry till we got nothin left already.

Tell me, would you prefer to be pan fried, or boiled in a nice cream sauce ?

Eat the rich, yeah eat the rich
Out of the palace and into the ditch!

Krokus



Tell me that, eh ?

Especially now, being a small biz owner/operator, that the bite is even WORSE, AND we happen to be in a bitter financial dispute with the very same police dept which suddenly, radically jacked the bill for their "protection" despite being of NO use whatsoever to the community WE happen to be protecting cause they can't/won't AND because they need the money to cover lawsuits and legal fees related to their own officers rampant corruption and brutality!

Come May 5th when they whine for more tax millage not only am I gonna go vote AGAINST it, since all we're gettin for the money is more crime at the hands of the badge-bearers, I'm showing up as Dynamo, dammit!

Siggy, it actively pains me to see you shovel the same load I shot the crap out of when supposed conservatives threw it in my face - I should not be going hungry while running a financially sound business, and yet, here I am eatin Ramen again, so we can make the goddamn payroll.

We DO tax folk right into the poorhouse, and small biz owner/operators take the worst of it, so please, for the love of mercy do a little homework on how often taxes are the factor that sinks smallbiz, often before they even really get off the ground!

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:34 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
We DO tax folk right into the poorhouse, and small biz owner/operators take the worst of it, so please, for the love of mercy do a little homework on how often taxes are the factor that sinks smallbiz, often before they even really get off the ground!



This falls in with a whole class of legislation that actually protects vested companies and corporations from unwanted competition. It's a pattern that happens over and over, in licensing and insurance requirements, tax legislation, and the reams of regulatory overhead that the fatcats can easily absorb, but represents an overwhelming barrier to start ups. That's why you often see the larger companies get behind new regulation (even while they give token resistance). In the end it's a win for them, as long as it hits their competition harder.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Said to me by Augustus, earlier today.

"Son, you might go hungry here and there, but you ain't ever gonna starve for too long, cause as long as there's three people left on this shitty planet, end of the day, someone is gonna want someone elses ass kicked."

I found that all too goddamn funny.

-F

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:09 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


I just learned that lesson. I was absolutely dreading my taxes this year after I found out that as a self employed person I was pretty much looking at double the taxes. It's partly my fault for not doing the proper research before I started this venture, but gosh darnit, double?!

My saving grace this year is that I had a lot of start up cost expense. Next year I won't have nearly as many deductions or expenses. I'm scared.

Here I am paying double taxes while congress is working on giving those with estates over 20bil a tax break. Shouldn't they be the ones paying back the money? Are my paltry funds really a better recoup option than someone with 20 bill?

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

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