REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The death of small businesses

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, March 20, 2009 12:16
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Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ben& Jerry's? Bought up by Unilever in 2000.

Burt's Bees? Yeah, there really was a beekeeper named Burt, but the company has since been sold to Chlorox in 2007.

Tom's of Maine? Used to be a small company and is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Colgate-Plamolive.

Horizon Organic milk was bought out by the largest diary company in the U.S., Dean Foods Co., in 2005.

Odwalla? Now Coca-Cola (2001).

Naked Juice? How about PepsiCo? (2005)

It turns out that most of the "alternate" cereals are owned by Kellogs or General Mills. Dagoba Chocolate is owned by Hershey's.

----------------------
It's one big giant company. Pretty soon they'll all be owned by Bue Sun... er, I mean Walmart. At least, it's beginning to feel that way.

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/131910/burt%27s_bees%2C_tom%27s
_of_maine%2C_naked_juice%3A_your_favorite_brands_take_another_look_--_they_may_not_be_what_they_seem/?page=3











---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I guess the fake capitalists - the one who don't worship the bottom line - just couldn't hold out against the real ones.

I'm sure Geezer will have something to say about this. How upstart start-ups are the lifeblood of capitalism, how they prove that the biggest one doesn't always win. He told us Ben&Jerry's was - different. A beacon of light showing us all the true way of capitalism.

Yep. Apparently so.

***************************************************************

ADM

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Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm sure Geezer will have something to say about this. How upstart start-ups are the lifeblood of capitalism, how they prove that the biggest one doesn't always win. He told us Ben&Jerry's was - different. A beacon of light showing us all the true way of capitalism.

Yep. Apparently so.



Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint, and then go do something else. If that doesn't happen, you may still have a company that provides you a good living.

But I keep forgetting, making a good living by being innovative or risking all your capital is evil. You shouldn't want to better yourself.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm sure Geezer will have something to say about this. How upstart start-ups are the lifeblood of capitalism, how they prove that the biggest one doesn't always win. He told us Ben&Jerry's was - different. A beacon of light showing us all the true way of capitalism.

Yep. Apparently so.



Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint, and then go do something else. If that doesn't happen, you may still have a company that provides you a good living.

But I keep forgetting, making a good living by being innovative or risking all your capital is evil. You shouldn't want to better yourself.

"Keep the Shiny side up"


I've always felt Luigino (Jeno) Paulucci was a decent success story - maybe not everybody thinks so.
I'd still consider Ben&Jerry to be sell-outs, but nice to see the liberals capitulate.

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Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh don't even get me started on Hersheys...

Not after they started having a rough time and so many folks did everything in their power to save them since they were an american icon - and then in 2007 they went and started outsourcing to mexico, laying off many workers who'd bitten the bullet regarding wages and benefits to keep a unique american company up and running ?

Especially grating is that doin such a thing is just about pissing on the grave of Milton Hershey himself, who honestly and firmly believed that the company and community were parts of an integral whole - a form of corporate responsibility all but forgotten in the modern era.

Hershey can "kiss" my ass, pun intended.


-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint
Hey Geezer, just so's you don't take that old argument out of context: The argument started over whether capitalism contains an inherent drive towards monopolism. It was Walmart versus the mom & pop, remember?

THANKS for proving my point for me!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:01 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint
Hey Geezer, just so's you don't take that old argument out of context: The argument started over whether capitalism contains an inherent drive towards monopolism. It was Walmart versus the mom & pop, remember?

THANKS for proving my point for me!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.

I agree with Geezer (big surprise, I guess). The goal of many, many people who start a company is to MAKE money. Anyone who does this is, yes, taking advantage of Capitalism. Why is that such a horrible thing to some people? Sell out or not. If someone comes along and offers you a ton of money for your business and it doesn't go against your core principals, then why not take the money? There's a lot of good that can be done in those situations. Charitable donations, form a foundation to help others, etc.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:12 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.


Ah, so it wasn't Stalin who was evil, it was the Russian people who didn't stop him. Was Stalin just misunderstood?

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:15 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.


Ah, so it wasn't Stalin who was evil, it was the Russian people who didn't stop him. Was Stalin just misunderstood?

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?



Oh yeah . . . I forgot the whole "Stalin = Wal-mart" equation. But Stalin wasn't a Capitalist and the majority didn't want to buy what he had to offer. We have a CHOICE where to shop, not so much a government dictatorship which is FORCED upon you. So your point is moot.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:29 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
We have a CHOICE where to shop

LOL, You're funny, Rip.





The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:30 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
We have a CHOICE where to shop

LOL, You're funny, Rip.





The laughing Chrisisall



That's what some people say . . . friends even.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:14 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"That's what some people say . . . friends even. "

Hey, if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you follow them ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:16 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"That's what some people say . . . friends even. "

Hey, if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you follow them ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Since being called funny is a good thing and jumping of a cliff, generally speaking, is not . . . no.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:24 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:


Oh yeah . . . I forgot the whole "Stalin = Wal-mart" equation. But Stalin wasn't a Capitalist and the majority didn't want to buy what he had to offer. We have a CHOICE where to shop, not so much a government dictatorship which is FORCED upon you. So your point is moot.


That's not the equation, I was pointing out the absurdity of blaming everyone but Walmart for Walmarts actions. Sure they wouldn't be around if people didn't shop there, but that doesn't make shoppers responsible for Walmarts executive decisions. If you didn't have a widescreen TV a burglar couldn't steal it from you, so if you're broken into and some twat makes off with your TV, I suppose that means you should be blamed for having a TV that someone wants to steal? Or is personal responsibility for ones actions something rich people (like Walmarts management) to be let off of? Personal responsibility does tend to be something only ever leveled at the bottom rungs of society.

You can't really declare my point moot, I was never trying to draw a comparison between Walmart and Stalin, I was drawing a comparison between your statement that Walmarts decisions are everyone else's fault, and a statement that Stalin's decisions were too. I was highlighting the absurdity of your point, so it's rather not moot.

Regardless, Walmart's policies are to artificially lower prices, driving competitors out of business while using their sheer size to keep afloat in the local market. If you're barely managing to keep afloat yourself, then of course you're going to go to the cheapest outlet. I'd hardly say it's a simple choice, it's more like choosing between a rock and a hard place. Plus Walmart's business plan is centred around removing choice from the American Consumer, which again renders my point (or what you thought was my point at least) a little less moot.

And for the record most people in Russia didn't only want Stalin then, but a fair sizable want him back now. Take from that what you will, but I think it rather helps prove my point.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:40 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:


Oh yeah . . . I forgot the whole "Stalin = Wal-mart" equation. But Stalin wasn't a Capitalist and the majority didn't want to buy what he had to offer. We have a CHOICE where to shop, not so much a government dictatorship which is FORCED upon you. So your point is moot.


That's not the equation, I was pointing out the absurdity of blaming everyone but Walmart for Walmarts actions. Sure they wouldn't be around if people didn't shop there, but that doesn't make shoppers responsible for Walmarts executive decisions. If you didn't have a widescreen TV a burglar couldn't steal it from you, so if you're broken into and some twat makes off with your TV, I suppose that means you should be blamed for having a TV that someone wants to steal? Or is personal responsibility for ones actions something rich people (like Walmarts management) to be let off of? Personal responsibility does tend to be something only ever leveled at the bottom rungs of society.

You can't really declare my point moot, I was never trying to draw a comparison between Walmart and Stalin, I was drawing a comparison between your statement that Walmarts decisions are everyone else's fault, and a statement that Stalin's decisions were too. I was highlighting the absurdity of your point, so it's rather not moot.

Regardless, Walmart's policies are to artificially lower prices, driving competitors out of business while using their sheer size to keep afloat in the local market. If you're barely managing to keep afloat yourself, then of course you're going to go to the cheapest outlet. I'd hardly say it's a simple choice, it's more like choosing between a rock and a hard place. Plus Walmart's business plan is centred around removing choice from the American Consumer, which again renders my point (or what you thought was my point at least) a little less moot.

And for the record most people in Russia didn't only want Stalin then, but a fair sizable want him back now. Take from that what you will, but I think it rather helps prove my point.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?



A) I gotta remember to put those smileys in there to imply a jest. Note to self . . .
B) You take things WAY too seriously.
C) Why start with the degrading of other people right away? Calling my point absurd was a little uncalled for. It was simply a point. An opinion. Period. Not leveled at any one person or thing.

Corporate decisions aside . . . Walmart would lose money if people didn't shop there. Period. People stop going to Wal-mart, profits would go down, they'd have to close stores, etc. People decide not to listen to Stalin, they got a bullet to the head (that's my understanding of it anyway). Hey, you started the comparison, not me.

I don't know what to make of your comment about people wanting Stalin back. That makes no sense to me. But if it's true, it's true. I have nothing to add to it.

"I think you're burdened with an overabundance of schooling"

People DO have a choice of where to shop. Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.

I agree with Geezer (big surprise, I guess). The goal of many, many people who start a company is to MAKE money. Anyone who does this is, yes, taking advantage of Capitalism.

Again, thank you for proving my point about capitalism being inherently evil.

It's not that individual business owners are evil (although some are). My point was that you could start out with the best of intentions, but as long as you do business in a PROFIT-driven system (profit: not the same as wage) you will eventually succumb to ruthless, monopolistic practices. Either personlly, or you will sell your business out to those who do, or you will fall in market share. So who the hell cares that Walmart used Chinese slave labor, right? That's capitalism! (And that's my point)
Quote:

Corporate decisions aside . . .
Why leave them aside.? They ARE part of the porblem!
Quote:

Walmart would lose money if people didn't shop there.
And people wouldn't shop at Walmart if they were paid a fair wage. Which goes back to the OTHER problem about capitalism: If the sum total of money paid out as wages does not equal the sum total value of the goods being offered for sale (the difference being profit) then the amount of goods that can be purchased follows a descending spiral.

I know that's a little complicated; if you don't follow it I'll re-explain later.

BTW- Are you sure you're not Geezer's sock-puppet?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.


Don't like Earth or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T LIVE THERE! It's as simple as that.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:51 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM



the dirty fucking hippies were right



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Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:01 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
B) You take things WAY too seriously.


If you say so. I don't see much levity in your post, I do see some statements on my character though.
Quote:

C) Why start with the degrading of other people right away? Calling my point absurd was a little uncalled for. It was simply a point. An opinion. Period. Not leveled at any one person or thing.

I called you're point absurd, I didn't call you absurd. I find the idea that everyone but Walmart are responsible for Walmart's decisions pretty absurd. I could have chosen a better example perhaps, but I went with an extreme one to better show the comparison I was trying too show. Perhaps everyone but the bankers who made bad lending decisions are at fault? Makes about as much sense to me.

You accuse me of taking things too seriously, yet I'm not the one taking a dismissal of my opinion as a personal attack .
Quote:

Corporate decisions aside . . . Walmart would lose money if people didn't shop there. Period. People stop going to Wal-mart, profits would go down, they'd have to close stores, etc. People decide not to listen to Stalin, they got a bullet to the head (that's my understanding of it anyway). Hey, you started the comparison, not me.

Actually no, I've explained what comparison I was making, by choosing to go with the distortion you're just engaging in a strawman. Not serious about it, just pointing it out. At any rate, that's not my comparison, neither is it anything like my comparison.
Quote:

I don't know what to make of your comment about people wanting Stalin back. That makes no sense to me. But if it's true, it's true. I have nothing to add to it.

"I think you're burdened with an overabundance of schooling"


He's their hero, rightly or wrongly, doesn't mean they're stupid. People worship Reagan as a demi-god, despite the fact he fulfilled none of his campaign promises and most of what he's credited with had bugger all to do with him. There's a Firefly episode on the subject of hero's.
Quote:

People DO have a choice of where to shop. Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.

And if you can't afford to shop anywhere else, or if Walmart has already priced every other shop out of the market, then you can choose to starve, all sorts of choices are oh so simple. Unfortunately real life then gets involved and the simplicity of theoretical assumption can sometimes be left as just that.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
People worship Reagan as a demi-god, despite the fact he fulfilled none of his campaign promises and most of what he's credited with had bugger all to do with him.


FYI, he could fly, bet ya didn't know that.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:33 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Again, thank you for proving my point about capitalism being inherently evil.


Ah . . . now the sockpuppet thing comes out. *sigh* I suppose it was unavoidable.

There is inherent evil in everything, my friend. From both sides of politics to the bear basics of human nature. Wherever there are people, the possibility of evil exists. And yes, there are always exceptions to that, but on the WHOLE, I think that you'll agree that what I'm saying is true.

There is no other reason for someone to start their own business (non-profit organizations aside - they don't actually sell anything) other than to make money. To make a wage, sure, but without profit, how is one to expand?

ABC Co. opened up two years ago by Mr. X and business is booming. Customers out the door everyday. Business keeps growing and growing and his store is soon packed to the gills to the point of being uncomfortable for his customers. But because he only put enough margin on his product to pay himself, buy more product and keep the lights in the building on, he can not EXPAND his business to offer more product, or expand the building or hire employees to assist the customers, etc. If he doesn't do these things he may lose customers because they don't like shopping at his store anymore. It's crowded, dirty and no one is available to help them because Mr. X is always at the cash register. The town's baseball league asks him to sponsor a team, he says he can't, so the league has to field one less team and kids get left out. Someone else stops by to ask for a donation of the store's product to help families in need in the neiborhood, he can't or he'd loose too much money. He can't hire anyone else, so he runs himself ragged anyway and has to close the store. See what I'm saying? PROFIT is what runs a business or there's no point in starting a business.

Yes. This is an extreme example, but the point is that without profit, Mr. X is going nowhere. And, yes, Mr. X could make enough profit to turn into a greedy bloodsucker because he's inherently evil. Happy?

Wal-Mart, though it may be evil, is one of the largest (if not THE largest) corporate charitable donors in the country. $245 million in one year, if I remember right. So without them . . . that money would be gone to who knows where.

Who is to say what a "fair wage" is? I mean seriously. Paying someone over 7$ an hour to flip burgers and wipe tables is too much, if you ask me. And yes, the more a company has to pay their employees, the more they'll have to charge for their product and/or services if they want to make a profit. Sorry, but it's true. Why do you think Value Menus at McDonalds started out at $0.99 and then in a few years . . . they had to stop. Minimum wage increases were a factor in that. Youbetcha.

I think it all comes down to the basic mindset of Americans these days. The "I want the best and I want it NOW." There's no more waiting or saving up to buy stuff. People want to be able to afford to by a flat screen TV now, so they claim (yes me included), right or wrong, that they don't get paid enough. People want their cable/sattelite tv, the new car, Playstation 3.

Look at this. This is America's definition of "poor".



And yes, Citizen, I think you're a mite bit too serious for your own good. You picked apart that little joke about politics for goodness sake! I said latin instead of greek! *GASP*

Oh . . . and I thought your equation of Wal-Mart to Stalin was absurd . . . so there

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:34 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.


Don't like Earth or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T LIVE THERE! It's as simple as that.



The laughing Chrisisall



My point exactly I hear Mars if lovely this time of year...

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
The "I want the best and I want it NOW." There's no more waiting or saving up to buy stuff. People want to be able to afford to by a flat screen TV now, so they claim (yes me included), right or wrong, that they don't get paid enough. People want their cable/sattelite tv, the new car, Playstation 3.


We bought a home smaller than we could "swing", My son has a lowly PS2, my car is from 1999 & still running well, I have a tube TV that looks very nice & is almost flat, and very basic cable because reception of broadcast TV is nearly impossible where we live. Going camping or climbing a mountain or going on a long bike ride is very cheap, healthy & fun.

Being happy has less to do with having the best, and more to do with getting the best out of what you can comfortably manage. Serenity on DVD, some popcorn & I'm having a better time than most peeps on a yacht, I conjure.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
And yes, Citizen, I think you're a mite bit too serious for your own good. You picked apart that little joke about politics for goodness sake! I said latin instead of greek! *GASP*

Oh . . . and I thought your equation of Wal-Mart to Stalin was absurd . . . so there


I'm astounded by your ability to read my mind, almost as much as your ability to get it so astoundingly wrong.

I find your belief that I take everything seriously as silly and misguided as your belief that rich people are allowed to do what ever they want, and it's everyone else's fault. Game set and match.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:52 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
The "I want the best and I want it NOW." There's no more waiting or saving up to buy stuff. People want to be able to afford to by a flat screen TV now, so they claim (yes me included), right or wrong, that they don't get paid enough. People want their cable/sattelite tv, the new car, Playstation 3.


We bought a home smaller than we could "swing", My son has a lowly PS2, my car is from 1999 & still running well, I have a tube TV that looks very nice & is almost flat, and very basic cable because reception of broadcast TV is nearly impossible where we live. Going camping or climbing a mountain or going on a long bike ride is very cheap, healthy & fun.

Being happy has less to do with having the best, and more to do with getting the best out of what you can comfortably manage. Serenity on DVD, some popcorn & I'm having a better time than most peeps on a yacht, I conjure.


The laughing Chrisisall



Then you, my friend, are living a happy life!

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:54 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
And yes, Citizen, I think you're a mite bit too serious for your own good. You picked apart that little joke about politics for goodness sake! I said latin instead of greek! *GASP*

Oh . . . and I thought your equation of Wal-Mart to Stalin was absurd . . . so there


I'm astounded by you're ability to read my mind, almost as much as you're ability to get it so astoundingly wrong.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?



Again. . . you're proving my point . . . I win LOL. Hahaha. Joke. Kidding, Whatever else it will take to let you know I'm saying things in jest here. Holy cow . . .

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:56 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:

Again. . . you're proving my point . . . I win LOL. Hahaha. Joke. Kidding, Whatever else it will take to let you know I'm saying things in jest here. Holy cow . . .


*Sigh*

I'm going to have to say it aren't I?

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:04 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:


Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.




But it is their fault that small businesses get driven out of town by unfair practices.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:22 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:

Then you, my friend, are living a happy life!


Somewhat less stressful than many.
I'd be way happier if they'd release a decent transfer of Outland to DVD, but whatca gonna do?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:25 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'd be way happier if they'd release a decent transfer of Outland to DVD, but whatca gonna do?


We've got one, it's region 2 so you can't watch it, ahh, ahhh, oohh, region twoo.
http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/1877/Outland/Product.html

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'd be way happier if they'd release a decent transfer of Outland to DVD, but whatca gonna do?


We've got one, it's region 2 so you can't watch it, ahh, ahhh, oohh, region twoo.
http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/1877/Outland/Product.html


Now I am unhappy AND envious.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:34 AM

STORYMARK


It's really not that hard to convert a region 2 disk to region 1 or region free.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
It's really not that hard to convert a region 2 disk to region 1 or region free.


On the disk?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:07 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
On the disk?


You'd have to rip the disk and re-encode it.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:41 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
I win LOL. Hahaha.

Yours is an evil laugh.

MU HU HU HA HA HA HA!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:21 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yours is an evil laugh.

MU HU HU HA HA HA HA!


This proves I own you.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:52 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
It's really not that hard to convert a region 2 disk to region 1 or region free.


On the disk?


The laughing Chrisisall



Yes and no. I was referring to what Cit mentioned - rip the disk and re-encode. Easy to do, and legal if you bought the R2 version.

But aside from that, many players can be hacked to disable the region-coding. Google your model number and "hack" or "region free", and if there is one for your model, you should find it.

(You ever get the Private Message I sent you, BTW?)

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:


Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.




But it is their fault that small businesses get driven out of town by unfair practices.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Indeed.

Rip, you should look into a little book called "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)" by David Cay Johnston. He lays out a pretty good case against the megaretailers, including Wal Mart and others, and illustrates with FACTS how they've gamed the system. In many places, they demand - and receive - multi-year abatements of property taxes. That's normal enough, and while not ideal, it's done in many places in order to lure in the "big box" stores that tend to anchor most shopping centers.

But what you likely DON'T know is that, in many, many instances, these megaretailers are also allowed to keep the sales taxes they collect on the goods they sell. That's a huge part of why they can sell so cheaply; it's not all economies of scale, you see, or that they're just so much better or more efficient at doing business. They've got an unfair competitive advantage - if they can COLLECT the sales tax (they charge you that tax, remember; look at your receipt to confirm that) and not PAY IT to the city, county, or state, then they've automatically got a 5-10% "cushion" whereby they can undercut other retailers who are forced to pay their taxes. And these, like property tax abatements, are generally multi-year deals. In other words, that great "boon to the tax base" that Wal Mart is supposed to bring to the area is paying neither property NOR sales taxes for several years.

Now, combine THAT with the economies of scale, and you have a retailer that is already able to undersell its local competitors. With the strength and size of the Wal Mart corporation behind it, though, a new store is also able to price items BELOW what anyone else can even buy them for at wholesale - so there is simply no way to compete, unless you're shopping other stores out of the goodness of your heart. And not many of us practice altruistic shopping, unfortunately...

Just something to ponder... (Hey, that's getting to be my tag line!)

Edited To Add: I've nothing against fair competition; I just don't like unfair competition, especially when it's shoved down our throats and sold to us as "fair".

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...



The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:40 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Are you sure you're not Geezer's sock-puppet?


Signy today, Rue tomorrow.

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Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Ayep, and when the deal ends and they start having to pay the taxes ?

They close up shop, and move on to the NEXT town, leaving economic devastation in their wake after having smashed out all the other local businesses.

Like a pack of fucking locusts.

-F

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Friday, March 20, 2009 1:03 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:


Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.




But it is their fault that small businesses get driven out of town by unfair practices.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Indeed.

Rip, you should look into a little book called "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)" by David Cay Johnston. He lays out a pretty good case against the megaretailers, including Wal Mart and others, and illustrates with FACTS how they've gamed the system. In many places, they demand - and receive - multi-year abatements of property taxes. That's normal enough, and while not ideal, it's done in many places in order to lure in the "big box" stores that tend to anchor most shopping centers.

But what you likely DON'T know is that, in many, many instances, these megaretailers are also allowed to keep the sales taxes they collect on the goods they sell. That's a huge part of why they can sell so cheaply; it's not all economies of scale, you see, or that they're just so much better or more efficient at doing business. They've got an unfair competitive advantage - if they can COLLECT the sales tax (they charge you that tax, remember; look at your receipt to confirm that) and not PAY IT to the city, county, or state, then they've automatically got a 5-10% "cushion" whereby they can undercut other retailers who are forced to pay their taxes. And these, like property tax abatements, are generally multi-year deals. In other words, that great "boon to the tax base" that Wal Mart is supposed to bring to the area is paying neither property NOR sales taxes for several years.

Now, combine THAT with the economies of scale, and you have a retailer that is already able to undersell its local competitors. With the strength and size of the Wal Mart corporation behind it, though, a new store is also able to price items BELOW what anyone else can even buy them for at wholesale - so there is simply no way to compete, unless you're shopping other stores out of the goodness of your heart. And not many of us practice altruistic shopping, unfortunately...

Just something to ponder... (Hey, that's getting to be my tag line!)

Edited To Add: I've nothing against fair competition; I just don't like unfair competition, especially when it's shoved down our throats and sold to us as "fair".

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...



The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".



I get all of that, don't worry. I also know that their size offers them the ability to buy things from suppliers for less because of the sheer volume of product they order. THEN they sell some items for less than they buy them for in order to lure more people in the store to buy that item PLUS other stuff at regular price.

I see what you all are saying. Is this particularly "fair"? No. Because the mom & pops can't keep up with that. But because Wal-Mart CAN do it and they take advantage of it . . . I dunno. They're in business to make money. The goal of any business is to get the biggest market share of an area they are in. The same goes for Pizza Hut, Lowes, JC Penny. That's all I'm saying.

On the other hand, my employer is the largest in the country at what we do. No one is bigger than us. Because of this, we get some product for less than our competitors because of our size and the volume of product we purchase from our suppliers. BUT we also have a lot of overhead because of our size. Our regional and local competitors, have smaller overhead. Because of their SMALL size, even though they might not get better deals on things than we do, they can sell some things for LESS. Other companies offer other services on top of the product and sell the product AT COST because the service they provide is their main revenue. We've had to give up in some areas because there is no way we can compete with the local dealers. Are THOSE people evil? In our eyes they are because they're creating an unfair advantage. But they're also thinking outside the box in some cases TO compete with us and doing very well.

I know of a man in Texas (a competitor that I interviewed with ) who starts up companies, gets them moving in the right direction in order to get attention from larger companies in hopes that they will buy him out. If and when this does happen, he moves on to another venture - starts another company, employs more people, etc. Is HE evil?

I'm not saying this to get nasty, I'm just curious what your opinions are of these people. They're smaller businesses. Not big, nasties like Wal-Mart.



Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, March 20, 2009 1:24 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Indeed.

Rip, you should look into a little book called "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)" by David Cay Johnston. He lays out a pretty good case against the megaretailers, including Wal Mart and others, and illustrates with FACTS how they've gamed the system. In many places, they demand - and receive - multi-year abatements of property taxes. That's normal enough, and while not ideal, it's done in many places in order to lure in the "big box" stores that tend to anchor most shopping centers.

But what you likely DON'T know is that, in many, many instances, these megaretailers are also allowed to keep the sales taxes they collect on the goods they sell. That's a huge part of why they can sell so cheaply; it's not all economies of scale, you see, or that they're just so much better or more efficient at doing business. They've got an unfair competitive advantage ...



Thanks Kwicko. This is basically the post I was considering adding, though I haven't had the time. Also didn't figure it would gain much traction here. ("Capitalism's evil, mmkay?")

I haven't read this book, but what you cite is all too familiar. I'll see if I can find a copy. Sounds like a good read.

One of the things I've been pushing for, with the relatively few people who can even 'hear' such an idea, is a constitutional ban on such governmental whoring. The practice fundamentally violates the concept of equal protection and is antithetical to a free market.

The real problem is the attitude that causes this crap to be so commonplace to begin with: namely the notion that it's the responsibility of government to foster economic growth and supply citizens with "jobs". Until we can get past that presumption it will be hard to convince people how insidious this sort of preferential treatment really is.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, March 20, 2009 1:27 AM

SERGEANTX


dp

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The real problem is the attitude that causes this crap to be so commonplace to begin with: namely the notion that it's the responsibility of government to foster economic growth and supply citizens with "jobs". Until we can get past that presumption it will be hard to convince people how insidious this sort of preferential treatment really is.
Maybe if capitalism did a better job at fostering economic growth and providing jobs, people wouldn't feel the need for another avenue. But it can't and it never will, because the whole point of capitalism is to reduce labor costs.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Signy today, Rue tomorrow
I happen to know Rue personally and am fairly certain I'm not her sock puppet, nor is she mine! The fact that we agree on a lot of things on-line is simply because we agree on a lot of things. (We DO disgaree on how aggressive to get with our posts.) Can you say the same about Geezer?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:21 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Maybe if capitalism did a better job at fostering economic growth and providing jobs, people wouldn't feel the need for another avenue. But it can't and it never will, because the whole point of capitalism is to reduce labor costs.



Maybe. Anyway, it's a really bad idea to have government selling it's services to the highest bidder, don't ya think?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Maybe. Anyway, it's still a really bad idea to have government selling it's services to the highest bidder, don't ya think?
Of course. Although I would extend that statement farther.

It seems to me there is more than one avenue of power: military, communications, money, religion. Sometimes the powers are at odds with each other: religion fighting the military, the media against the government. When people REALLY wind up in deep doodoo is where the powers coalesce: government and religion. Religion and money. Money and the military. Military and the media.

And it seems the way power works in human society is that power coalesces, and different kinds of power glom onto eachother. The FF had it right in that they tried to create an internal balance of powers within government, but (1) they didn't go far enough and (2) they didn't realize that power distributed among many (eg Congress) will inevitably bow to power wielded by a few (Executive Branch). If I were to "design" a society, the various forms of power would be divorced from each other as much as possible.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:48 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
And it seems the way power works in human society is that power coalesces, and different kinds of power glom onto eachother. The FF had it right in that they tried to create an internal balance of powers within government, but (1) they didn't go far enough and (2) they didn't realize that power distributed among many (eg Congress) will inevitably bow to power wielded by a few (Executive Branch). If I were to "design" a society, the various forms of power would be divorced from each other as much as possible.



Ayup. But regarding the practice of local and state government competing for corporate investment, I'd argue in somewhat the opposite direction. (i.e. in favor of national consensus as opposed to decentralized power) It's vitally important to maintain the equal protection ideal embodied in the constitution throughout the nation. I've never understood why we allow local governments to grant special favors to corporations like this.

I can understand why local governments feel pressured to do it - if they don't, the next one will. But that's exactly why it needs to be addressed at the national level. Has anyone here even heard of a national rep pursuing such legislation?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, March 20, 2009 4:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Has anyone here even heard of a national rep pursuing such legislation?
There a are lot of "minima" set by the federal government (minimum wage, minimum pollution controls etc.) but my understanding is that the current interpretation of the constitution keeps the Federal government completely out of the loop of state and local authorities raising money (which is why state and local taxes and bonds are Federal-tax free.)

The problem is when you get a company the size of Walmart... which dwarfs most small cities, many counties and even some states in terms of sheer economic power..."bargaining" is very unbalanced: David and Goliath (only in this scenario Goliath wins). So how do you get an entity "big enough" to go toe-to-toe with Walmart? I don't know....

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 5:05 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
... my understanding is that the current interpretation of the constitution keeps the Federal government completely out of the loop of state and local authorities raising money (which is why state and local taxes and bonds are Federal-tax free.)



That's why I'm thinking it needs to be a dealt with at the level of a constitutional amendment, something that clearly prohibits state and local government (federal too, for that matter) from taxing, or providing services, preferentially.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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