REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Like so much toilet paper

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, December 6, 2008 06:27
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Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The Guardsmen and civilian contractors who worked there have described walking on and sitting near the bright orange powder that was widely dispersed throughout the grounds of the water plant.
Quote:

Attorneys for 16 Indiana National Guard soldiers on Wednesday sued the largest U.S. contractor in Iraq, alleging the company knowingly exposed the soldiers to a cancer-causing toxic chemical. 16 Indiana National Guardsmen have sued the Houston-based company Kellogg Brown and Root, known as KBR.

The lawsuit against Houston-based KBR, which seeks an unspecified amount, alleges that the soldiers were exposed to sodium dichromate, an inorganic compound containing a highly toxic form of chromium known as hexavalent chromium. The soldiers say that they, along with other American civilian contractors, were exposed to the chemical at the Qarmat Ali water pumping plant in southern Iraq shortly after the U.S. invasion in 2003.

KBR was tasked with getting the plant up and running using civilian contractors. The National Guardsmen were assigned to protect the civilian workers. The Guardsmen and civilian contractors who worked there have described walking on and sitting near the bright orange powder that was widely dispersed throughout the grounds of the water plant. The chemical was believed to have been left behind by forces loyal to Saddam Hussein.

Some of the Guardsmen already suffer from nasal tumors or respiratory system problems and other health problems, according to the lawsuit. One of the guardsmen may have died from the exposure, though the exact cause of his death earlier this year is still not clear. The odorless sodium dichromate was used at the plant as an anti-corrosive, the lawsuit says. The chemical contained nearly pure hexavalent chromium, the toxic substance that poisoned homeowners in Hinkley, California, and was made famous by activist Erin Brockovich, according to the suit.

For the Guardsmen, KBR's "knowing acts and omissions" resulted in "months and months of unprotected, unknowing, direct exposure to one of the most potent carcinogens and mutagenic substances known to man," the lawsuit alleges. The Guardsmen say the company knew about the dangers of exposure to the chemical as far back as 2003, but did not act to protect the soldiers.

"KBR managers knew full well long ago that this stuff was incredibly dangerous. But there was no information about it for years. And now these soldiers are facing some pretty serious health concerns. They're going to be stuck with this the rest of their lives," said Doyle. "The most frustrating thing is that these guys are finding out years later that they were exposed to something," said Mike Doyle, one of the Houston attorneys representing the Guardsmen.

A spokeswoman for KBR said the company was still reviewing the lawsuit, but denied responsibility for creating unsafe conditions at the plant.

No, KBR didn't spill the sodium dichromate. But they didn't clean up the mess before they had peeps working in it or issue safey gear.


BTW: POP QUIZ- HOW MANY chemicals do YOU think are classified as "known human carcinogens"?

Rue- I know you know so don't answer!
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Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh DRAT !

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

BTW: POP QUIZ- HOW MANY chemicals do YOU think are classified as "known human carcinogens"?
Anyone want to take a flyer on this? The number will surprise you!!!

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:15 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


:squirms in seat, tries hard to not wave arm wildly:

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:00 AM

STORYMARK


I don't know. I'll google in a moment, but that's not fair for a pop quiz.

So, how long untill Rappy comes in to defend KBR?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If they knew, and this stuff was so bad, and it was bound to lead to legal action sooner or later, what's the motive again?

Hmmm.... seems like I've heard this tune before.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:24 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Grr. Arg.

This is an ugly story. I almost always fall on the side of the troops, sometimes blindly I admit. If KBR knew what the stuff was and didn't act, someone has to pay. It was left behind by Saddam granted, but if these guys were sitting in this stuff for months with no cleanup AND it was known, then I side with the soldiers.

This is also a story that highlights the bravery of our soldiers. They face visible and invisible threats on a daily basis unflinchingly. It's easy to sing of the heroism of men in battle. But unsung stories, like friendly fire accidents, choper crashes, PTSD, or chemical exposures (sitting in strange orange dust) are just as valid. They are still heros for going there to risk themselves in such ways.



Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The hammer should fall, I agree. But my point is, assuming it was " known " that this stuff was all that bad, and knowing how companies just LOVE getting sued, it makes little sense to me that anyone would simply turn away and hope for the best. It's like leaving tacks and shards of glass in thick shag carpet, and letting a room full of babies play on the floor. Sure, they MIGHT not come in contact w/ the bad stuff, but do you really want to take that chance?

Hell and No !

No one likes bloody babies, do they ?



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Okay, for all of you who are wondering HOW MANY CHEMICALS ARE KNOWN HUMAN CARCINOGENS... (all 1.5 of you) the answer is


thirteen


Yep, only 13. And hexavalent chromium is one of them!

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 12:10 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

So, how long untill Rappy comes in to defend KBR?



And the answer is: 7 minutes.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Nasty stuff, yeah, I've seen it, having worked security for chem plants - that, hydrogen sulfide, high concentration chlorine (gaseous), sulphur dioxide, titanium tetrachloride, etc.

The latter's the worst, lethal at 1ppm, I highly reccommend not inhaling it by accident.

Interesting story related to that, some town out in the midwest became concerned over some damaged tanks let sitting in the local railway due to low level radioactive contamination from using DU ammunition, since children were playing around them and no one seemed to know why there were left there.

So some enterprising locals did a bit of research at the local library and contacted one of the businesses in town that made, of all things, christmas tree flocking, which formulation contained a decent percentage of wax, which they increased for a single batch and then went over there and flocked the things.

I dunno how real-world effective that might have been, but one has to admit it was a novel and interesting way to deal with the matter.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 4:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So the moral of the story is

FLOCK YOU !



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Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

So, how long untill Rappy comes in to defend KBR?



And the answer is: 7 minutes.

"



Wrong, as usual. I didn't defend anyone, just didn't jump on the band wagon to crucify anyone w/ out all the evidence. You remember, the presumption of innocence and all that ?







It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA


LoL, I knew someone would say that, Rue.

My question tho - and y'all scientific types might know, is whether the wax content of the flocking would actually be in any significant way an insulation against that kind of low level radiation.

I've heard of using snow or water, and that wax has some insulating properties, but I am a little dubious whether that would be enough to reduce risk factors, is all.

-F

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Friday, December 5, 2008 2:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


While it might not have any usefulness at BLOCKING the radiation, it certainly couldn't hurt in the containment arena, keeping whatever the materials inside were from being easily dispersed.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, December 5, 2008 3:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
...one of the most potent carcinogens and mutagenic substances known to man...the bright orange powder...was widely dispersed throughout the grounds of the water plant. The chemical was believed to have been left behind by forces loyal to Saddam Hussein.



So. Use of WMD against American forces?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Use of WMD against American forces?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Good one!


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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You remember, the presumption of innocence and all that ?
Unless you happen to be Barack Obama, in which case all kinds of allegations and phony issues are sufficient.


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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:29 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
If they knew, and this stuff was so bad, and it was bound to lead to legal action sooner or later, what's the motive again?

Hmmm.... seems like I've heard this tune before.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Of Course they knew - I am sure they have all seen Erin Brokovich!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"LoL, I knew someone would say that, Rue."

Well, I saw you build the wall, install the frame, assemble the door and hang it, then carefully prop it open --- SOMEBODY had to go through it !

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Friday, December 5, 2008 6:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But my point is, assuming it was " known " that this stuff was all that bad, and knowing how companies just LOVE getting sued, it makes little sense to me that anyone would simply turn away and hope for the best.
Huh.

Well, since I work compliance I can tell you all kinds of horror stories about contractors and corporations who were hoping they wouldn't get caught, or assumed they could fight their way out in court:

---------------------
Asbestos (another one of the know human carcinogens) removers who hired illegals, didn't tell them what they were working with, and left them unprotected.

An asbestos remover who abandoned piles of fluffy asbestos in a vacant lot for kids to play "snowball" with.

A chrome plater (hexavalent chromium) which - when their sewer line was cut off by the sanitation district for repeated egrerious violations- tipped their waste into the schoolyard next door.

A drum recycler which spewed caustic (Drano) into the schoolyard next door, causing little kids to choke and spasm when they were playing outside.

A refinery who phonied their paperwork for five years, stating they were in compliance when they were grossly negligent. (They got fined over $100 million).

I could go on and on, but you should get the idea. Yeah, presumed innocent until proven guilty, but definitely within corporate/ business SOP.




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Friday, December 5, 2008 11:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Reluctantly - I concur.

One of the things I did not like about being security for those folk was not only knowing their dirty deeds, but being fully expected to help cover them up and prevent folk from discovering them.

Stuff like... sayyyy... outflow pipes below the waterline they happen to be dumping stuff they shouldn't into in order to save disposal fees.

And when you're poor enough to NEED that job, there's damnall you can do about it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, December 6, 2008 5:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And unfortunately I think this is inevitably so.

Contractors, companies, and corporations get no joy out of being "responsible" economic citizens ie. paying their workers more than starvation wages, controlling pollution etc. In fact, they tend to be at an economic disadvantage compared to companies that take shortcuts.

The hard- chrome plater's customers (businesses which refurbish ship propeller shafts, railcar bearing journals etc.) don't know that their plater tips his waste into the schoolyard. All they know is that they get a great plating job at a great price. And even if they knew, they might not care. After all, they're driven by the same forces. If they switch to a more expensive environmentally conscious plater their expenses go up. Either they pass those expenses on to their customers and lose business overall, or they take a cut in profit and lose out on future expansion. Either way, over time they lose out.

The free market is a harsh master. The most efficient businesses are those which are most effective in privatizing profits while socializing losses. (Eg passing on the cost of treating the cancers that they caused to the families they affected, their insurance companies, and government.) As long as economic life is based entirely on profit and loss... and I see no way to make it otherwise without introducing a third actor and changing the nature of the marketplace itself... that will be the inevitable "free market" result.

I'm actually sympathetic to business because I work with their samples every day. I understand they face the loss of jobs to China or Mexico. But somebody has to represent "the breathing public". There is a cost of regulating (cost of pollution control devices, higher material costs) but there is ALSO a cost to NOT regulating (death, disability, health care, days off and loss of productivity, accelerated material deterioration). I can only hope that China and Mexico will one day start regulating their industries too.

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Saturday, December 6, 2008 6:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ETA: The best we can do is level the playing field in terms of regulatory costs. Because if the costs are borne euqally across an entire industry sector (around the world) then no single business has a competitive advantage.

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