REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Here it comes ...

POSTED BY: SERGEANTX
UPDATED: Friday, November 21, 2008 08:58
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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:05 AM

SERGEANTX


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/us/20health.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Quote:

November 20, 2008 NYT
By ROBERT PEAR
WASHINGTON — The health insurance industry said Wednesday that it would support a health care overhaul requiring insurers to accept all customers, regardless of illness or disability. But in return, the industry said, Congress should require all Americans to have coverage.

The proposals, put forward by the insurers’ two main trade associations, have the potential to reshape and advance the debate over universal health insurance just as President-elect Barack Obama prepares to take office.

In separate actions, the two trade groups, America’s Health Insurance Plans and the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association, announced their support for guaranteed coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions, in conjunction with an enforceable mandate for individual coverage.

In the absence of such a mandate, insurers said, many people will wait until they become sick before they buy insurance.

Members of Congress said Wednesday that they wanted to pass legislation next year, as proposed by Mr. Obama, to expand coverage and rein in health care costs.

The new position taken by the insurance industry — the industry that helped sink President Bill Clinton’s plan for universal health coverage in 1994 — could ease the way for passage of such legislation.

But the industry’s position differs from that of Mr. Obama in one significant respect. Insurers want the government to require everyone to have and maintain insurance. By contrast, Mr. Obama would, at least initially, apply the requirement only to children.

In the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, that was a major point of contention between Mr. Obama and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York. Mrs. Clinton said that everyone should be required to have coverage. Mr. Obama said he wanted to be certain that insurance was affordable and available to all before considering such a broad requirement.

Asked on Wednesday for reaction to the insurance industry’s proposals, Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for the Obama transition team, said, “We are declining comment.” Mr. Vietor cited Mr. Obama’s view that “we have only one president at a time.”

In many cases, people with cancer, diabetes, traumatic brain injuries or other serious afflictions have found that they cannot obtain health insurance at any price.

Research suggests that some insurers turn down 10 percent or more of applicants for individual coverage because of their pre-existing medical conditions.

Donald G. Hamm Jr., president of Assurant Health, explained why the industry thought an individual mandate must be coupled with any ban on such underwriting practices.

“In the individual market, people can choose whether or not to apply for coverage,” Mr. Hamm said in an interview. “If they know they can obtain coverage at any time, many will wait until they get sick to apply for it. That increases the price for everyone.”

Insurers say that is just what happened in several states that prohibited insurers from turning down applicants on the basis of their health status.

The new policy statements are silent on two important issues: how to enforce an individual mandate and how to regulate insurance prices, or premiums.

While insurers would be required to sell insurance to any applicant, nothing would guarantee that consumers could afford it. Rate regulation promises to be a highly contentious issue, since it pits the financial interests of insurers against those of consumers.

At present, insurance premiums are generally regulated by the states and often vary according to a person’s age, sex, medical history and place of residence within a state. In the individual market in most states, a person with a history of serious or chronic illness can be charged much more than a healthy person of the same age and sex.

Mr. Hamm, a member of the board of America’s Health Insurance Plans, said the group might offer recommendations to define “a fair and appropriate rating structure.”

Alissa Fox, a vice president of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association, said the individual mandate was an indispensable corollary of any approach forbidding insurers to reject applicants because of health status.

“Insurance works best when everyone is in the pool,” Ms. Fox said. “You need healthy people in the insurance pool to help pay for sicker individuals who are much more motivated to buy coverage.”

Insurers did not say how the government should enforce an individual mandate: whether through fines, tax penalties or other means. Politicians have also been reluctant to specify details of enforcement, which could prove highly unpopular.

Setting aside such thorny issues, seven senators responsible for health legislation met Wednesday and promised to work together. Those participating were Senators Max Baucus of Montana, Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut, Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and John D. Rockefeller IV of West Virginia, all Democrats, and Michael B. Enzi of Wyoming, Charles E. Grassley of Iowa and Orrin G. Hatch of Utah, Republicans.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Fuck.......


Socialism, here we go. One more step on the road to slavery.

So they will "require" everyone to have coverage...

Insurance just for being born. Great

When people look back at this time, will they remember these things, or will they come up with a simple catch-phrase for what caused the 2nd Civil War?

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:23 AM

SERGEANTX


Hell, this isn't even socialism. This is just serving us up to the insurance industry on a plate. For my money, insurance is the problem, not the solution. I'll fight this tooth and nail. I'll be a criminal before I play ball with this shit.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Fuck.......


Socialism, here we go. One more step on the road to slavery.

So they will "require" everyone to have coverage...

Insurance just for being born. Great

When people look back at this time, will they remember these things, or will they come up with a simple catch-phrase for what caused the 2nd Civil War?



Wulf: Do you have insurance on your car? Do you have it just because, or because you're required to?

Just wondering.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:32 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Because Im required to do so.

I hate it.


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:35 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Wulf: Do you have insurance on your car? Do you have it just because, or because you're required to?

Just wondering.



Mandatory insurance is bullshit in any case. When it comes to driving, people are responsible for the damages they inflict. If necessary, punish them. But do it AFTER they do the deed. Not before.

And for those of you who'll start whining about uninsured motorists - you can get insurance against that risk, if you want. That's the way it was before the mandatory crap was pushed through and it worked fine. It just wasn't as profitable as the insurance companies liked.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Sarge, Wulf: You'll get no real argument from me on the mandatory insurance issue; I was asking just to find out where "bottom" was, in your minds. You say this will spark a civil war, but historically... it hasn't. And while there ARE "outlaws" out there without insurance, they're by far in the minority.

Wulf: You say you DO have auto insurance. So does that mean that you're a socialist, or that you don't have the courage of your convictions, and aren't willing to "go rogue" and do without it?

Again, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that "crosses the line" in most folks' eyes, and what they will and won't tolerate.


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:16 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You say this will spark a civil war, but historically... it hasn't. And while there ARE "outlaws" out there without insurance, they're by far in the minority.



I'm not saying that. I wish it were true, but my guess we don't have that kind of spirit in the US anymore. People just want their MTV. They want to be taken care of and distracted. Soma all around.

Quote:

Wulf: You say you DO have auto insurance. So does that mean that you're a socialist, or that you don't have the courage of your convictions, and aren't willing to "go rogue" and do without it?


Here I am butting in again.... :)

Speaking for myself, and not necessarily for Wulf, choosing to have insurance or not has nothing to do with your convictions about whether it should be mandatory. I'm against seatbelt laws, but I still wear one most times.

Quote:

Again, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that "crosses the line" in most folks' eyes, and what they will and won't tolerate.


People will tolerate quite a bit if you keep the "bread and circuses" flowing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Wulf: You say you DO have auto insurance. So does that mean that you're a socialist, or that you don't have the courage of your convictions, and aren't willing to "go rogue" and do without it?"

I've gone without insurance before. Been caught, did the time and paid the fines...a couple of times actually....got tired of the bs, and my wife was sick of the bills, court dates, bail ect..

As to the Civil War I mentioned... I meant how in the 1st one, all people can say is that it was slavery that caused it. When, in fact, the reasons were far more complex.


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:42 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You say this will spark a civil war, but historically... it hasn't. And while there ARE "outlaws" out there without insurance, they're by far in the minority.



I'm not saying that. I wish it were true, but my guess we don't have that kind of spirit in the US anymore. People just want their MTV. They want to be taken care of and distracted. Soma all around.



I'm curious what your version of a better US would be? Are you unable to pursue something in this current set-up? Really, not dubious, just honestly curious.

I hate paying insurance too, and I pay it for many people, but you have to have it. Not "have to" because Big Brother says you do, but you have to because if you make one split second screw up and cause and accident, and you DON'T have it, you are in a world of shit. I have seen that twice with friends that are typical drivers - you drive enough you will make a mistake. 3 people in the hospital... you think car insurance bills are bad...

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:43 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


DAMN !

Though I oppose it b/c it's just one more government giveaway to industry.

At the very least I think government should offer a competitive insurance plan - use the competition to keep the industry honest.

In fact, rather than have government supported / regulated industries, I think the government should get into ALL basic services as a competitor to private industry - health care; utilities like electricity, gas, phone, water, and trash collection; mining and refining; rail, road and air transportation; steel and auto manufacturing, etc.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:46 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Fuck.......
Socialism, here we go. One more step on the road to slavery.



Hear, hear.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:53 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I'm curious what your version of a better US would be? Are you unable to pursue something in this current set-up? Really, not dubious, just honestly curious.


A better US would be a society that respected the fundamental right of self-determination.

I can't say that bullshit like mandatory insurance has held me back a great deal (though, like Wulf, I did spend a day in jail over it) - but I have had to live much of my life like a criminal, constantly looking over my shoulder because my paperwork wasn't in order. I can't say I regret it, because I'd rather live life sanely and dodge the cops than get in line. But it does have a very real impact.

If you've ever lived on the edge, you've seen what I'm talking about. There's an entire subculture out there who can't afford to do 'the safety dance'. They live under the covers and off the books, some by necessity, some by choice. But they live as a subclass, second-class citizens because they won't or can't play the game as corporate Amerika dictates.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sarge and Wulf, I think you're jumping the gun. This is what INDUSTRY proposes. It's a negotiating position. Likely they are willing to concede even more. Possibly the govt response will be to tell them to f*ck off.

If I were on the committee I'd tell the insurances to f*ck off. I'd cut em off at the knees: They'd HAD their 60-year run with health care, they screwed it, and they were done. And then I'd make Medicare available for everyone who wanted it (which would be infinitely cheaper than current health-care employee benefits) and use the purchasing power of the government to set pharma and care costs. Since health insurances rake 30% off the top, that would immediately save that much $$$. In addition, instead of doctors, hospitals, labs, and other providers having to negotiate rates with 21 different insurances, they have to deal with only one kind of paperwork. (Excessive paperwork is the #1 reason that doctors want to leave medicine... has nothing to do with malpractice insurance.)

I know that Medicare also needs some tweaking, but that's another story.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:00 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge and Wulf, I think you're jumping the gun. This is what INDUSTRY proposes. It's a negotiating position. Likely they are willing to concede even more. Possibly the govt response will be to tell them to f*ck off.



I sure hope so Signy, but I'm not seeing a lot of opposition to this model, especially not from the Democrats who'll likely be making the call. We'll see.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I sure hope so Signy
Me too. Accepting this "offer" would be a horrible tragedy. But peeps managed to accept the Medicare "drug insurance plans" pushed thru by the Bush admin so....

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:08 AM

CANTTAKESKY


I'm with you Sarge.

My family and I never go to doctors. We either don't get sick, or we successfully treat with alternative medicine which isn't covered by insurance. In my view, conventional medicine is only good for 3 things: trauma, limited types of diagnostic instruments, and limited types of surgery. If I don't need any of that, why should I be required to buy it? If or when I do need it, I can pay for it just like I pay for food or shelter that I need.

This forces the conventional medical religion down the throats of dissenters and medical atheists. I'm planning to leave the country anyway, but this sort of thing makes me kind of glad to do it. Sure, I'll miss hot water and Halloween, but I won't miss this toxic it's-ok-to-be-slaves mentality.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If or when I do need it, I can pay for it just like I pay for food or shelter that I need.
I sure hope you've got $100,000 or more saved up.

But since you prolly don't... I'm sure you won't be accessing "modern medicine" any time soon!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:50 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I likewise don't go to doctors and agree with you on what Western medicine is good for. I have major medical and dental coverage, everything else I have remedies for. I likewise agree with you on the conventional medical religion.
I'm just going to make a point here.
Most countries that are not the third world have socialized medicine. I talk to many, many people in those countries. And I'm jealous of them because they have more access to alternative medicine, naturopathic and homeopathic and holistic doctors, ALL forms of medicine and therapy. Much of it is covered under certain situations. Now, maybe it wouldn't work that way here. We're very much the culture of instant gratification and pill popping, and I think more than anything else that is what needs to be overcome to make socialized medicine work. Pills are expensive, and nearly everyone seems to be on something, and paying for everyone's pills is what's most likely to make it unaffordable and unworkable.
Although, take half the tax money poured into Iraq and pour it into health care, and I bet everyone could be covered, at least the most important things, including the most necessary of medications.
Just a thought.

[/sig]

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:03 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I sure hope you've got $100,000 or more saved up.

It bothers me greatly that it might cost that much for the few services I might need. It bothers me even more that people who want health care reform don't seem to mind that it costs that much.

I was in the hospital just last year. My hospital bill was $104,000, not counting another $10,000 in physician and lab fees. At that time, I happened to have had 2 insurances, who together paid about $15,000 on the entire bill. They called it even, and I didn't have to pay a dime.

Just how did a $15,000 bill get turned into a $115,000 bill for the patient? Does no one else see a crime here?

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Just how did a $15,000 bill get turned into a $115,000 bill for the patient? Does no one else see a crime here?
Well, I do. But it's a game doctors, hospitals, anesthesiologists etc have to play with the insurance companies to get anything at all.

They overbill waaay the heck up, the insurance companies beat them down by varying degrees, and somehow they manage to get paid. But if YOU were to pay by cash you'd spend a fortune, because then they would charge you FULL PRICE. It's slowly changing, but "self pay" is usually waaaay more expensive. (Altho a few doctors now charge less if you pay by cash 'cause the insurance company paperwork is such a friggin' nightmare and payment takes forever!)

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


There are many hospitals and services for which payment at insurance coverage rates is not enough to cover the hospital bills. That's why many are going out of business or at least shuttering their ERs and other high-cost departments.

As far as I'm concerned the insurance companies are at fault for a large portion of the dysfunction in US health care. And after that, I'd blame the drug companies.

And after that, the spineless government that seems to be looking after industry profits more than its citizens.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:41 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
It's slowly changing, but "self pay" is usually waaaay more expensive.

Right. Well, if it ever changes to the way it is supposed to be, where a patient gets charged with the *real* price, I'd be ok. Because I can easily save up $15K if I don't have to pay monthly premiums. Incidentally, for those 2 insurance coverages, I was paying $1500 a month. Ten months of no major trauma and voila: $15,000. So if health care reform ever does what it is supposed to do, which is primarily to bring those exorbitant prices down to a reasonable level, there is no reason why a medical savings plan shouldn't work.

If there had to be some kind of mandate, I'd rather be legally required to put something into a medical savings plan than pay the pharmaceutical/medical/insurance complex for services I may never need.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke


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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:44 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Just how did a $15,000 bill get turned into a $115,000 bill for the patient? Does no one else see a crime here?
Well, I do. But it's a game doctors, hospitals, anesthesiologists etc have to play with the insurance companies to get anything at all.

They overbill waaay the heck up, the insurance companies beat them down by varying degrees, and somehow they manage to get paid. But if YOU were to pay by cash you'd spend a fortune, because then they would charge you FULL PRICE. It's slowly changing, but "self pay" is usually waaaay more expensive. (Altho a few doctors now charge less if you pay by cash 'cause the insurance company paperwork is such a friggin' nightmare and payment takes forever!)

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.



Many doctors around my area charge far, far less for self-pay. They let people know up front, if you save them having to hassle with insurance companies, they'll knock off about 75%.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Where do you live? I'd like to move there!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Hell, this isn't even socialism. This is just serving us up to the insurance industry on a plate. For my money, insurance is the problem, not the solution. I'll fight this tooth and nail. I'll be a criminal before I play ball with this shit.

Amen, halleluah and peanut butter.

Mandatory auto insurance is the biggest crime racket ever, and this will be no better.

-F

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Friday, November 21, 2008 8:58 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Where do you live? I'd like to move there!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.



New Mexico.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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