REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IT FAILED.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Thursday, October 2, 2008 11:24
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1708
PAGE 1 of 2

Monday, September 29, 2008 8:34 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/news/economy/bailout/index.htm?cnn=yes


So the bailout failed, by a slim margin. What are we now looking at?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 8:37 AM

WHOZIT


228 - 205 is'nt that slim.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 8:47 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So the bailout failed, by a slim margin. What are we now looking at?


Don't go all weak-kneed. You have nothing to fear but fear itself (and President Obama).

I say the markets act all pissy for a couple days and then they get over it cause there will be good deals out there. Strong banks eat weak banks and the FED lowers rates.

And there is a chance the PLAN comes back in modified form. Or Plan B (the House Republican plan to dump the cash buyout in favor of a more modest form of insurance).

Go to work, tomorrow is another day. Don't worry till there's something to worry about. Either its all going down the crapper, in which case you can't do anything about it...or...its all going to be ok, in which case all that worry was for nothing.

If your really feeling nervous...go do something to keep yourself busy. I've been volunteering weekends at a faith-based community service group. Makes me feel better and does something positive at the same time.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 8:52 AM

WHOZIT


Does this mean the Democrats lead a "Do Nothing" Congress? Obama said in an interview that he'd vote for a bail out, it's time for that empty suit to stand up and be counted!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 9:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


It failed, but it can still come back.

In all seriousness, Im sick to death of politics and politicians. Im sick of the 2 party system that has gotten so inbred. Im tired of the pandering and the belly-aching.

Im sick of all of it.

Im ready for a 3rd party candidate. I wonder how many are with me on this, and if so...will it even matter? Have we gotten to the point that even if the people voted for a 3rd party person, would he be allowed to take office? (Of course, Im thinking of Ron Paul here.)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 9:29 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Have we gotten to the point that even if the people voted for a 3rd party person, would he be allowed to take office?


Actually ANY third party candidate that get elected can take office EXCEPT Ron Paul.

Why? That should be obvious.

In fact, should Ron Paul be elected then the plan is to allow each of the independent 3rd party candidates serve a portion of RP's term and RP will be forced to sit on an island in the South Atlantic and eat arsonic-laced peaches.
Quote:


(Of course, Im thinking of Ron Paul here.)


Well, that is your first mistake. Think of the bunnies instead...

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 9:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Does this mean the Democrats lead a "Do Nothing" Congress? Obama said in an interview that he'd vote for a bail out, it's time for that empty suit to stand up and be counted!



Leaders of both parties asked for their respective members to pass this, and a very similar % on both sides said, "um, no." All it says is that the ground swell from the people was very loud and very clear (yeah us), and that elections for many members are coming up real soon and they want to distance themselves from W. and his policies. Major butt coverage in other words.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 9:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Also, the Repubs voted against it simply because it didnt give golden 'chutes to their buddies.

Fuck it. I say we vote them ALL out and start over.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:04 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Fuck it. I say we vote them ALL out and start over.



Even that's not enough. We'd have to completely restructure the United States government for there to be any real change. It's the idea of politics as we know it that's corrupt, not just the politicians.

****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA


The Republocrats are indeed so inbred they remind one of a dimwitted backwoods hick with two thumbs, ain't they ?

I'd say in the fall - fire em all, save for one teensy little itty bitty bit of recent history that one should NOT forget at this time.

It was that very response to sleazy old Clinton and his bullshit, that cursed us with Shrub.

Do we wanna repeat THAT kind of a mistake ?

Make double DAMN sure you're not voting for worse, or someone with an obviously hidden agenda before you pull the lever.

Otherwise you might as well just connect it to a box of dynamite, yes ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:07 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Also, the Repubs voted against it simply because it didnt give golden 'chutes to their buddies.

Fuck it. I say we vote them ALL out and start over.

No, a dozen or so voted NEY because Pelois had to shoot her big mouth off, she is God awfull leader. Democrats are in the majority, they have the votes to pass this. http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:30 AM

KIRKULES


I think congress will still pass a plan soon. The more time they take the better the plan will be, but if they take too long it might be to late. The stock market will probably continue to fall 700 points a day tell they pass something. If they don't get it done in a few days panic will start to set in and the run on the banks will begin, followed a few days later by widespread riots. The Bush administration will be forced to release "Pax" into the atmosphere to pacify the mobs and we'll have a full scale Zombie apocalypse within a week. I'm not going to panic myself tell the food and ammo runs low. Of course this is a best case scenario.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Kirk, any more attempts by you to encourage a climate of fear and panic, must be deemed by us to be an act of insurrection.

The Councilisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:47 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Also, the Repubs voted against it simply because it didnt give golden 'chutes to their buddies.

Fuck it. I say we vote them ALL out and start over.

No, a dozen or so voted NEY because Pelois had to shoot her big mouth off, she is God awfull leader.



What stand-up guys they must be, then, to turn a 180 just becuase of a speech - from the opposition leader.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 10:57 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
What stand-up guys they must be, then, to turn a 180 just becuase of a speech - from the opposition leader.


These are the folks who are on the fence...and grudgingly agree to the deal in the name of bi-partisan coopoeration and because their President asked them too...only to have her get up there and disrespect them with partisan bullshit.

The real question is not about a dozen or so Republicans...but what happened to Pelosi's 90 Democrats. The Democrats control the House, if they wanted the Deal, it'd have passed Republicans or not.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 11:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Kirk, how ironic the words Zombie Apocolypse get mentioned here today, tell me y'all weren't at the same off the books gun&surplus sale...

Or is that a general "gun-culture" thing ?

I don't get gun culture, for all my rabid defense of the 2A, I'll forever remain clueless on that, it seems...

Anyhows, this buddy of mine who owed me for resurrecting his dirt bike a while back (poor bastard melted a piston, had to bore it 4-over offset) and showed up late yesterday with what he felt was an appropriate payback.

He picked up some new Ak variant that's apparently got him harder than a virgin at hugh heffners house, and so decided to reluctantly part with his old, ugly chinese red star combloc monster.

Ok, fine, dandy, maybe I can hang it on the wall or something - since with my depth perception issues, anything over a hundred yards is just wasting ammo, right....

Then he hands me a pair of apparently romanian 75round drum clips to go with it, and I am like WTF?! - he KNOWS I can't use a rifle worth a damn, what the hell am I gonna need ONE bullet for, much less a hundred-twenty five ??

"For the zombies man... for the zombies..."

Is there somethin out in the woods y'all play in I need to know about ??

Cause if there is, someone get Ms. Summers on speed dial, cause that ain't MY job.


-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 11:22 AM

RAZZA


In the words of a Clay Aiken fan after finding out he actually is gay:

"Huh, and the sun came up this morning."

I'm hearing nothing but doom and gloom from every news channel and every opportunist politician who can get in front of a microphone.

The bottom line is that the american people called their congressmen in both parties and told them that the answer to a credit crunch is not put it on credit! Let's face it, any money the government spends to bailout a bunch of imcompetent bankers is going be taken out on credit, cause they ain't got a dime to spend unless China deigns to give it to us. Conservatitives are pissed because the only difference between George Bush and the liberal left is that one will cut taxes and spend and the other will tax and spend. The fiscal irresponsibility of our government has permeated into our banking system and our family budgets.

There are plans out there that will take care of this problem which will not cost the american people a dime, let's explore those and not rush to throw more money around like Paris Hilton on a shopping spree!

-----------------
Yet Another Stupid Blog --> www.razzarant.net

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 11:23 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


"For the zombies man... for the zombies..."

Is there somethin out in the woods y'all play in I need to know about ??



I don't think you're missing anything. I think it just comes from having very poor taste in movies as a teenager. We used to have a general rule that all movies should contain, Zombies, Nazis or Nudity. Occasionally you'll find one with all three like "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS".

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 12:01 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
What stand-up guys they must be, then, to turn a 180 just becuase of a speech - from the opposition leader.


These are the folks who are on the fence...and grudgingly agree to the deal in the name of bi-partisan coopoeration and because their President asked them too...only to have her get up there and disrespect them with partisan bullshit.




Boo-hoo. She hurt their feelings.

And really, your FOX News approved talking points aside, how was the speech "partisan"? Didn't seem that way from the transcript.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 12:14 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
What stand-up guys they must be, then, to turn a 180 just becuase of a speech - from the opposition leader.


These are the folks who are on the fence...and grudgingly agree to the deal in the name of bi-partisan coopoeration and because their President asked them too...only to have her get up there and disrespect them with partisan bullshit.




Boo-hoo. She hurt their feelings.

And really, your FOX News approved talking points aside, how was the speech "partisan"? Didn't seem that way from the transcript.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html There comes a time when you get tired of putting up with somones shit and then you just tell them to SUCK IT! You really do'nt care what happens after.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 12:22 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:

The bottom line is that the american people called their congressmen in both parties and told them that the answer to a credit crunch is not put it on credit!

Yeh, and I was one of those. I can't believe they couldn't get some of the golden chutes and lack of oversight fixed in the final bill.

So... like the bill or not; see what your rep. did and vote 'em in or out as you see fit.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

I'm pleased my rep voted 'no'; did yours? And you happy about it or not?

Let 'em know!!!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 12:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

"Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS".

Oh dear me, didn't know anyone else ever saw that howler, I about wanted to claw my eyes out.

Even sadder is that fact that there's a sequel, so weird you can't even make this shit up...

When our local affiliate canned the sunday afternoon kung-fu marathon (deliberately the worst stuff they could find), which we would watch with a large quantity of beer...

We took to doing what amounted to a homebrewed version of MST3K, which I hadn't even heard of till like 2002...

We'd gather at Dons house and flop on the couch with a large quantity of beer and cheap popcorn bought from the same supplier as the theatre where he worked, lay some plastic down in front of his battered projection TV, and each of us would bring the two WORST videos we could possibly find, occasionally this included bad porn (that was usually Ray), soviet propaganda videos, and in one case an OSHA work safety bit that was ludicrous enough to actually be funny - and boo, make commentary and throw popcorn.

Great fun that was.

But yeah, Ilsa was memorably horrible as was metalstorm/jared syn, and goddamn if every sci-fi B flick for many a year didn't crib almost every ounce of combat footage from Battle Beyond the Stars (which I actually liked, bleh.)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 1:06 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Also, the Repubs voted against it simply because it didnt give golden 'chutes to their buddies.

Fuck it. I say we vote them ALL out and start over.

No, a dozen or so voted NEY because Pelois had to shoot her big mouth off, she is God awfull leader. Democrats are in the majority, they have the votes to pass this. http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html]

Did the wittle republicans get their wittle feelings hurt? It's tough when the truth is painful, huh?

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 1:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Kirk, how ironic the words Zombie Apocolypse get mentioned here today, tell me y'all weren't at the same off the books gun&surplus sale...

Or is that a general "gun-culture" thing ?

I don't get gun culture, for all my rabid defense of the 2A, I'll forever remain clueless on that, it seems...

Anyhows, this buddy of mine who owed me for resurrecting his dirt bike a while back (poor bastard melted a piston, had to bore it 4-over offset) and showed up late yesterday with what he felt was an appropriate payback.

He picked up some new Ak variant that's apparently got him harder than a virgin at hugh heffners house, and so decided to reluctantly part with his old, ugly chinese red star combloc monster.

Ok, fine, dandy, maybe I can hang it on the wall or something - since with my depth perception issues, anything over a hundred yards is just wasting ammo, right....

Then he hands me a pair of apparently romanian 75round drum clips to go with it, and I am like WTF?! - he KNOWS I can't use a rifle worth a damn, what the hell am I gonna need ONE bullet for, much less a hundred-twenty five ??

"For the zombies man... for the zombies..."

Is there somethin out in the woods y'all play in I need to know about ??

Cause if there is, someone get Ms. Summers on speed dial, cause that ain't MY job.


-F



It IS kind of a "gun culture" thing, Frem - I see it quite a bit on some of the gun sites I visit. One guy had a scan of his Class III NFA application (this is the form you fill out to LEGALLY own a machinegun, a sawed-off shotgun, a silencer, etc.) - and in the space where the form asks, "For what purpose are you building or possessing this weapon?" he wrote, in a big, childlike scrawl, "ZOMBIES".

And his application was approved.

I thought it was hilarious, indicating that either someone at the BATFE actually has a sense of humor, or that they don't even bother reading the forms. Probably the latter.

I think the thing with the "zombie" comments is just a "safe" way of talking about being prepared and armed to shoot someone if the need arises. If you say you're ready for "the zombies", it sounds a bit less mean-spirited. At least, that's my take on it.

As for the drums, check them out carefully to see what you've actually got there. Some of the drums can get kinda pricey, depending on who made them. Chinese ones (Norinco) are pretty sought-after, because the back plate pops off, so you don't have to load one round at a time; you can load them up quite quickly. And the spring that controls the feed on them is a "wind-up" clockspring type, which makes it much easier to load and use, and tends to last longer, or so I'm told.

If you're looking to get rid of the drums, let me know. I don't have any NEED for them, but I don't NEED 30-round magazines, either. If you need one, you need the other. I like having them around simply because I have the feeling that they won't be allowed for long, so they'll tend to be worth quite a bit more than they are now. That nasty ChiCom AK you're talking about is probably at least a $400-500 rifle nowadays, and those prices aren't going down.

What was his new AK variant, anyway? I'm curious. I'd guess a Saiga of some sort (possibly one of the new Arsenal "Legion" line, which looks an AWFULLY lot like an AK-103 from the receiver forward, complete with cleaning rod, bayonet lug, flash hider, etc.) Wonderful rifles (and shotguns); I was lucky enough to get one of the old 7.62x39 rifles early on, when they were selling new for around $150; they go for $360 and up any more, IF you can find them in stock.

Anyway, I'd say keep something loaded up and ready, just in case of, y'know... a Zombie Apocalypse!



Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 1:38 PM

REAVERMAN


Quite frankly, I'm amazed that the Dems voted down such a blatantly socialist plan. The American people really need to get over their pathetic "Somebody please save me from my own stupidity!" attitude. Having the government so deeply involved in the market would have caused far more problems in the long run than it would have solved in the short-term.

As it is, barring more foolish attempts at manipulation, the economy will get bad for a while, maybe even a few years, but will then recover. That's the way it always works out. But the more the government interferes, trying to slow the decline, the slower and less effective the eventual recovery becomes.

I'm not saying the government should sit back and turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the economy, as a little more oversight could have averted the current crisis, preventing these failing businesses from making so many unprofitable decisions. I'm simply saying that the government should learn its place as the watchdog of the market, not the administrator of it.

----------------------------
"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"

-Epicurus

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 1:59 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Reaverman:
, as a little more oversight could have averted the current crisis, preventing these failing businesses from making so many unprofitable decisions.


The problem is that in this case it wasn't just the free market making bad investment decisions. Lenders where required by regulations to make questionable loans and threatened with more regulation if they did'nt comply. Better regulations might have prevented this problem, but existing regulations are part of what got us into it. The government and lenders are equally responsible for this mess. I do agree with you though that the government's attempt to fix the problem will probably just make it worse, but I think it's worth a try at this point because the alternative looks pretty bad in my opinion.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 29, 2008 3:45 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Yeah, the Wall Street Jews got defeated by Congress. It's a miracle!

IT failed, but Congress had no problem passing a $1-TRILLION War Dept Act for 2009 on Friday, and passed the Iran War Invasion To Stop Cheap Oil Sanctions Act.

Full text of the Reichstag Federal Reserve Rescue Act that Congress was given 12 hours to read before voting, obviously written long before the "surprise crisis":
http://financialservices.house.gov/essa/ayo08c04_xml.pdf

I voted three times to defeat this bill, by contacting each of my Congresscritters.
www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt

My votes were counted.

How about you?

9. In addition to my previous list of demands, I'd add to re-criminalize derivatives, which were decriminalized by Reagan/BushSr in the 1980s.

10. And ban Commie Chinese cops evicting US homeowners:
www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1147.htm
Quote:


Derivatives are an Illuminati pyramid scheme

Quote:

The Bank for International Settlements (BIS) semi-annual OTC derivatives statistics report, for end of December 2007, shows $596 trillion total notional amounts outstanding of OTC derivatives with a gross market value of $15 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)

Info on derivatives:
www.theinternationalforecaster.com




1. Vote NO to this $100-Trillion bank robbery, that gives the bank robbers criminal immunity, zero bookkeeping, zero Congressional oversight, zero judicial jurisdiction

2. Immediately impeach George W Bush, Richard B Cheney, Henry Paulson and Benjamin Bernanke for their millions of murders, treasons and other felonies

3. Immediately file criminal complaints in federal court against George W Bush, Richard B Cheney, Henry Paulson, Benjamin Bernanke and Sir Alan Greenspan Knight of the British Empire for their millions of murders, treasons and other felonies

4. Immediately nationalize the private Federal Reserve Bank that keeps all income taxes as interest on the federal debt, by repealing the Federal Reserve Act that was never properly voted on during midnight session of Xmas holiday by two Congressmen in 1913, per Ron Paul's Federal Reserve Abolition Act - HR 2755
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.2755:

6. Immediately eliminate the IRS and income tax, and "repeal" the 16th Amendment that was never ratified by the States

7. Immediately end all wars and bring all troops home to USA

8. Immediately arrest and deport all 50-million illegal aliens, and arrest their employers and seize their assets

www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=35015


Congressman Ron Paul demands immediate arrests of Bernanke and Paulson:
www.infowars.com/?p=4868

So Obama supported this insane bailout?
Quote:

"We have seen no bill. We are debating talking points. Mr Speaker I have been thrown out of more meetings in the last 24 hours than I ever thought possible. We are under martial law as declared by the speaker last night."
-Rep Michael Burgess (R), C-SPAN, September 28, 2008



“We are Constitutionally sworn to protect and defend this Republic against all enemies foreign and domestic. And my friends there are enemies. The people pushing this deal are the very ones who are responsible for the implosion on Wall Street. They were fraudulent then and they are fraudulent now. My message to the American people don’t let Congress seal this deal. High financial crimes have been committed. The normal legislative process has been shelved. Only a few insiders are doing the dealing, sounds like insider trading to me. These criminals have so much political power than can shut down the normal legislative process of the highest law making body of this land.”
-Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur (D), C-SPAN, September 28, 2008




Obama Gestapo wear this T-shirt
www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Denver_cops_get_Tshirts_that_mock_0928.html

Obama voted to ban all defensive "assault" rifles, to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a skool or park, said the DC Victim Disarmament Zone was "constitutional", and threatened to sue or arrest anyone broadcasting his voting record during the coronation, er, election:
www.gunbanobama.com
www.volokh.com/posts/1203747566.shtml
www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/06/obamas_switcheroo_on_the_dc_gu.ht
ml


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
The problem is that in this case it wasn't just the free market making bad investment decisions. Lenders where required by regulations to make questionable loans and threatened with more regulation if they did'nt comply. Better regulations might have prevented this problem, but existing regulations are part of what got us into it. The government and lenders are equally responsible for this mess. I do agree with you though that the government's attempt to fix the problem will probably just make it worse, but I think it's worth a try at this point because the alternative looks pretty bad in my opinion.


No, regulations removed that stopped them making bad decisions, and the construction of the mortgage market using leverage in the form of Mortgage Backed Security Profiles is what pushed lenders into making bad decisions. If you're referring to the CRA, that was operating for years prior to deregulation without problems, and the evidence suggests that lenders governed by the CRA were LESS likely to make bad loans.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Gotta agree with Cit on this one. There is no such thing as a "free" market when the scope is this big. Deregulation, while proposed under a "Patriot Act"esque farce, was nothing more than a means of making the rich richer, and getting us into the state of panic a lot of us are in now.

Also have to remember that once these "free" credit practices were firmly in place, there were laws demanding that the banks then give out loans to many people who would never be able to pay them off by making it illegal for banks to decline based off of race. This isn't racism I'm spouting. It's just a fact that first there were many people who would never been allowed to get this credit (thanks to derivatives) that could now get it, and then there was a law expressly saying that it was illegal for banks to say no to minorities when they wanted a house. For the ones who could pay, I'm all for it. For those who never had a chance.... well..... after the laws were created, the banks they walked into didn't either.

There are many ways to fix the economy and many of them will have to be used in tandem. There is no one size fits all fix, and it's a blessing that we didn't allow this to pass.

It pisses me off that the vote was even this close though, considering that we were all about 50/50 on the issue...... 50% No and 50% HELL NO!

The sky ain't falling. Life will go on.

Take it from me. I'm the tin foil hat wearing guy that said all of this would happen years ago when everybody told me I was nuts. Now I'm telling you that the sky isn't falling.

Relax

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:10 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:




Amazing how it's all fake money filling the bubble, but when it bursts it's real money pouring out of the hands and wallets of the little guy, innit?

Derivatives.... as in Derived from the greedy palms of Satan's suit-wearing minions, perched in their Ivory Towers themselves. Hope you all enjoyed the party of the 90's, cause it's time to pay the piper. We'll either ride this thing down like we should and suffer a signifigant blow to our insanely high standard of living (historically speaking), or we'll let them keep the ruse up a bit longer and our kids are going to be living in hell on earth. Your call...

You didn't really think that China was going to work in sweatshops for eternity so the price of clothes never kept up with inflation, did you? Remember kids, the exploitation of third world countries for decades which was a large part of this mess is nothing short of slavery.

Easy not to think about that though when the slaves aren't black and it isn't happening in your own back yards, isn't it?

Free ride's over.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:25 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Yeah, the Wall Street Jews got defeated by Congress. It's a miracle!


I'm surprised you don't see how this is all part of the Queen's master plan.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"there was a law expressly saying that it was illegal for banks to say no to minorities when they wanted a house."

Hello,

This is misrepresentative of what the law says. The law says it is illegal for banks to say no to minorities just because they are minorities. Believe me, even at the height of the bubble, banks were saying no to minorities every day.

From where I was sitting, the #1 biggest problem was the presence of 'stated income' loans, which is a loan where the customer states they are making X income and you take their word for it, without requiring any verification of this fact.

The #2 biggest problem was LTV, or Loan To Value changes, where the equity banks were lending more than 80% and up to 105% of a home's value. Before the bubble started to inflate, we never lent more than 80%, which left some room to maneuver if you didn't recoup your investment.

The #3 biggest problem was a lack of reliable appraisals. This is where banks used Zillow or other unreliable home value device rather than deploying fraud-checked appraisers to appraise value. Hence we got some artificially inflated values on the properties we were lending upon. Compounded with item #2, this could put the bank very upside-down from day one.

The #4 biggest problem was 'fluctuating interest rate' products. The bank did cursory checks to make sure you could afford the introductory rate, but never checked to be sure you could afford the ugly rate that was coming down the pike.


The problem ain't minorities and it ain't lending to minorities or being required not to discriminate against minorities.

The problem was that these four things were not only allowed to happen, but salivated over by banks who knew that one day they'd have to pay the piper, but hoped to rake in a buttload of cash first.

I worked in a bank processing center with 200 processors who all shook their heads for four years at the rediculous policies of the bank. But the bonus checks kept rolling in, and everyone was told it was okay. Profits would mitigate losses. Home investment was a sure thing, because prices would always continue to rise...

Now I work in a bank processing center with 50 processors who are all scared shitless that the next layoff will have their ass on it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thanks Anthony.

This is the latest in a series of right-wing talking points, desperately pointing the finger anywhere but at greed and deregulation. I hear it from ppl that I expected a lot more from. In addition, there was out and out fraud. The problem is, some people will NEVER see the truth; they simply have too much emotional investment in their ideology. But thanks for setting the record straight.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:23 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It's just a fact that first there were many people who would never been allowed to get this credit (thanks to derivatives) that could now get it, and then there was a law expressly saying that it was illegal for banks to say no to minorities when they wanted a house.


I think you're being fed some bad info there. You seem to be saying that any black dude that strolls into a bank automatically gets a loan, BY LAW, regardless of whether or not he can pay it off. I disagree with that notion.

The laws state that IF you meet the requirements - which are the same regardless of your race or skin color, mind you - then they can't REFUSE you a loan simply because you're black.

What you had happening was, in large part - and this is according to loan officers and bank managers themselves, not from some random black dude who got burned by a bad loan he took on - banks were themselves inflating the income levels of applicants so that they could get them a loan, KNOWING full well that these people wouldn't be able to pay off that loan in a million years, but not caring because then they (the bank) turns around a resells the loan in a bundle with dozens of others, most of which are good and will be repaid.

Now, is there culpability? Sure, and plenty to go around. You have unscrupulous bank officers upselling to people whom they know for a fact are bad risks, and you have people wanting a house bad enough to go along with the lie because they think once they're in the house, they'll find a way to pay for it, and nothing will ever go wrong.

And it all came crashing down on all of them.

Like I've said before, I wanted a house, and I tried to buy one, but everyone I talked to INSISTED on loaning me far more money than I wanted to borrow or was comfortable making payments on, pushed-pushed-pushed those hideous fucking ARMs when I insisted on a fixed-rate, and pushed 30-year mortgages when I told them flat-out that I was only interested in a 20-year mortgage. I did what so many others SHOULD HAVE done, but didn't - I walked away.

And the thing is, now *I* am the one who feels like the fool, because the people who fucked up the biggest are getting help, while someone like me, who did nothing more sinister than try to live within his means, is getting to foot the bill.

I have no problem with black folk or anyone getting a home loan. But if you can't afford it, you deserve to lose your houseg (not you, FutureMissus - you're a special case!). And if you're the bank that sold it to them, you deserve to lose your business. I didn't take a risk, but I'm the one being punished for the risk that others took.

Pisses me off to no end, it does.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Take it from me. I'm the tin foil hat wearing guy that said all of this would happen years ago when everybody told me I was nuts. Now I'm telling you that the sky isn't falling.



Hey, you weren't the only one.

Of course, I also said that China was going to challenge our superpower status without ever firing a shot, but simply by willing to work harder, longer, and cheaper than us. And they now hold an enormous amount of our economy in their hands, and are poised to do whatever they want with it.

They essentially got us into a "manufacturing arms race" in that they decided they'd go toe-to-toe with us on manufacturing, and would simply undercut us on the pricing, and we bit - we bought every single cheap shitty trinket they could throw our way, feeding them OUR money and OUR jobs, and in a headlong fucking rush to do it. Now they've got the means of production, and we've got about zero-point-dick.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


The problem was that these four things were not only allowed to happen, but salivated over by banks who knew that one day they'd have to pay the piper, but hoped to rake in a buttload of cash first.



Anthony:

Thank you for putting it much more eloquently than I ever could.

And it wasn't just that the banks thought they could make money before it all crashed, it's that they were playing a game of "musical chairs" with the mortgages, just hoping against hope that when the music finally stopped, THEY wouldn't be the ones who were left holding the notes. They always, at every turn and for every single one of them, figured that they'd be able to "sell up" the mortgage packages they had, either to another bank higher up the food chain, a mortgage lending giant, a foreign investment bank, a hedge fund, or what have you. They never for a minute stopped to think what would happen if ALL of them came due at once, and if ALL of the bad loans were suddenly called in. And that, in essence, is what crashed the system. The one thing the Powers That Be never counted on, is the one that bit 'em in the ass.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well Mikey, you certainly know your stuff - yeah that's what he picked up.

The Saiga stuff looks pretty damn nice, and apparently they got a 12Gauge auto with a Kalishnikov action that looks a damn lot like Vera.
(is that what Vera really is, I wonder ?)

Since a rifle wouldn't do me much good, that Saiga-12 is actually looking pretty good to me, since slam-firing my M1897 is a fairly athletic procedure and I happen to be getting a bit long in the tooth for that sorta thing, yanno.

Since they tend to squish the top round of plastic shells, imma hafta go with shaped brass ones for my home defense ready loads however, despite the expense, cause an FTF in that situation is a really bad thing.

And after checking on the auction value of the twin 75's - I'll say with firm assurance the only way you'd get THOSE offa me is to scavenge them from my bullet-riddled, buried in empty brass corpse.
(nice try tho )

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, what to expect?

The market will go down. It may stay down for years... somewhere in the 11,000-point range (in today's dollars).

Banks, thrifts, and brokerages will fail. The FDIC and FSLIC will pick up the pieces of the banks and thrifts, but in the "shadow banking system" you're on your own.

Home prices will fall even further.

Some people will lose their houses.

The economy will slow down as people, banks, and brokerages stuff their money in mattresses.

What I do NOT see happening is a replay of the panic that almost-happened two weeks ago, when a "run" very nearly occurred. At least, not this year.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


What to Expect?

Hello,

I think we can expect some bad times, followed by some okay times, followed by some good times.

And that will all precede some bad times...

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Like I've said before, I wanted a house, and I tried to buy one, but everyone I talked to INSISTED on loaning me far more money than I wanted to borrow or was comfortable making payments on, pushed-pushed-pushed those hideous fucking ARMs when I insisted on a fixed-rate, and pushed 30-year mortgages when I told them flat-out that I was only interested in a 20-year mortgage. I did what so many others SHOULD HAVE done, but didn't - I walked away.

We ran into that too, but they didn't count on someone who would dig into it like a college thesis and come back to fight them on their own terms.

In the end, we got the terms we wanted, and a provision against selling our loan to the one company so revoltingly corrupt and nasty that the idea of our mortgage in their hands made us queasy.

And so, they cheated, went ahead and utterly violated the terms, counting on the fact that they could bury us in lawyers and cost us more than the entire loan amount in legal costs to enforce a provision against the very occurance that happened.

To me, that's a system breaker - when you cannot enforce a contract because one party cannot be legally compelled to obey it and the other can, it's a breach of the whole concept, and one reason, being on the recieving end of such, that I have no qualms about legalising contract enforcement using downright force.

Cause frankly, the bastards don't seem to understand nothing else, you ask me.

Just ask Japan, who wound up damn near literally throwing them out of the country.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/19/1095532176840.html?from=stor
ylhs


One of the reasons it was felt necessary to politically eliminat Elliot Spitzer was cause of his hardon for Citigroups often blatantly illegal practices, Sallie Krawcheck in particular had a hatred for the guy bordering on personal fetish.

So folks shouldn't be so quick to blame folks who *did* play by the rules, of a fixed game against financial organisations who break the rules without penalty whenever it suits them to do so.

And I mean without penalty, for if a company makes thirty million in profit for breaking a rule, and gets slapped with a three million fine, all that does is reinforce the message that crime pays, so long as you're ready to hand the Government a cut to keep em quiet.

We throw liquor store robbers in supermax for near life, and we keep softballing these bastards in club fed for pathetic little sentences, which on the face of it, is quite ridiculous, isn't it ?

Fuck their golden parachutes, we need to make it clear to them that they should be happy enough to avoid a fucking public lynching.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:05 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Of course, I also said that China was going to challenge our superpower status without ever firing a shot, but simply by willing to work harder, longer, and cheaper than us. And they now hold an enormous amount of our economy in their hands, and are poised to do whatever they want with it.


China's entire economy is a bubble, it's unsustainable, and fast approaching breach point. China will either change completely, or go to war with the US over Taiwan and end up back where it started with another revolution.

Of course that's rather simplified cause my cooker is beeping...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Fuck their golden parachutes, we need to make it clear to them that they should be happy enough to avoid a fucking public lynching.

-Frem


Rest assured that many will go to prison. The FBI and Justice Dept. are looking into hundreds of companies for all types of fraud. Like the business scandals of the early 2000's, many, such as execs at Enron, Comcast, etc. will be found guilty and sentenced, and unfortunately many will go scott free too. One thing for sure...no politician will go to prison, and in my opinion they're more culpable in many cases.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

No, a dozen or so voted NEY because Pelois had to shoot her big mouth off, she is God awfull leader. Democrats are in the majority, they have the votes to pass this.


Wow, you must think Pelosi's an awfully powerful woman - more powerful than your President, who called upon his own party to support this plan. Also, she must also be more powerful than John McCain, who had promised to get something done on this, and even had Mitt Romney going around to the morning shows spouting off about how "if you want something done, you call John McCain and it gets done." Of course, that was when it looked like the bailout WOULD pass, so McCain looks even more like a failure as a leader now. Guess you can blame Pelosi for his inability to lead. Gee, he can't even outfox a little old housewife - how's he ever going to stand up to a REAL leader?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.



Pelosi ALLOWED her commitee chairs to VOTE AGAINST it, so they could have political cover. She ALLOWED 95 Dems to vote NO.

She IS a piece of shit, and belongs in the Cynthia McKinney wing of Congress, as opposed to the Leadership.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Hey lookie... the market is rebounding. Imagine that.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


She IS a piece of shit, and belongs in the Cynthia McKinney wing of Congress, as opposed to the Leadership.



You mean Much About A Hair Do McKinney ???








It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:46 AM

RUE


"Hey lookie... the market is rebounding. Imagine that."

Yes, and all without a rich-people's care-package. Imagine that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:01 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
]

She IS a piece of shit, and belongs in the Cynthia McKinney wing of Congress, as opposed to the Leadership.



You mean Much About A Hair Do McKinney ???



That's actually one of her more flattering photos. A real credit to America!




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Hey, that commie loving Ho' was my Congresswoman for a time, so please, have pity on me.

And the term fits. She wasn't by any means a part of the guild. Just a commie lovin' ho'.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hey lookie... the market is rebounding. Imagine that.


See, nothing lasts forever, guess we've nothing to be concerned about, EVER, except the damn Liberals out to destroy this great nation...but if nothing lasts forever...

Hey wait AU...you logic falls apart...damn, like on EVERY post....how do you do that?

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Lindsey Graham steps in shit
Fri, October 31, 2014 08:15 - 4 posts
Kaci Hickok - Don't Tread On Me!
Fri, October 31, 2014 08:02 - 4 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine
Fri, October 31, 2014 07:31 - 601 posts
Ebolagate?
Fri, October 31, 2014 06:34 - 117 posts
What New Zealand Could Teach US About Indigenous Culture
Fri, October 31, 2014 04:56 - 37 posts
Election fraud.
Thu, October 30, 2014 22:55 - 2 posts
Obama makes rare campaign trail appearance, people leave early
Thu, October 30, 2014 21:44 - 10 posts
Coffee - Cheers!
Thu, October 30, 2014 21:13 - 142 posts
Lava flow?
Thu, October 30, 2014 21:01 - 2 posts
Marijuana On The Ballot In Florida
Thu, October 30, 2014 20:38 - 2 posts
Obama hindsight
Thu, October 30, 2014 19:57 - 13 posts
Rush was wrong today!
Thu, October 30, 2014 19:47 - 16 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL

OUR SPONSORS