REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Congress has bailout plan

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, September 26, 2008 11:01
SHORT URL:
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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/25/news/economy/deal_reached/index.htm?po
stversion=2008092513



AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

(runs screaming from the room)

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:50 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Meeting with congressional leaders and presidential candidates Barack Obama and John McCain at the White House, President Bush said he expects a deal "very shortly."

"We are in a serious economic crisis in the country if we don't pass a piece of legislation," Bush said.


So that's why CNN just reported that McCain was "LAUGHING" after that photo op.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:57 AM

MALBADINLATIN


The Republican response to "deal reached":

Buh buh buh buh nuh nah nah nah nah! Solving this crisis will take till at least...ummm....AFTER Friday evening!

If you agree with having the debate this Friday, you're against the troops!

The Democrats's counterproposal contained Satanic language!

If John McCain is not posing for pictures in Washington...none of us will survive the crisis that the Bill Clinton caused!

Signed, N Pfotenhauer.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



Hello,

So... They've agreed to a plan. May I quote a cinematic psychopath?

"You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA


"We have a plan"

Forgive me if those words do not exactly inspire confidence given how well every "plan" of these two parties has panned out in the past seven years.

Will someone PLEASE hand Ron Paul a crowbar and turn the cameras off for like, half an hour so he can go around and pry their heads out of their asses for once ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:33 AM

KIRKULES


Congress has no problem working together when they're covering each others asses. This plan will either help us avert disaster or make the disaster much worse, only time will tell now.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:44 AM

WHOZIT

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:51 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Will someone PLEASE hand Ron Paul a crowbar and turn the cameras off for like, half an hour so he can go around and pry their heads out of their asses for once ?

WHAT?!?!...you're going to waste that precious half hour with head up ass removal!?!?. Removal of the head from an ass with a crowbar takes five times as long as an infinitly more beneficial use of the crowbar when it comes to the vacuous heads of our politicians.

And on a completely unrelated subject...I don't condone violence of any kind.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:38 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I do.


Its time for some cullings.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:39 PM

SERGEANTX


Just read this quote from McCain -

"Following Sept. 11, our national leaders came together at a time of crisis. We must show that kind of patriotism now."

PLEASE, ANYTHING BUT THAT....NOT AGAIN.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:42 PM

SERGEANTX


It'd be nice to think this congressional crime would be enough to convince people never to support anyone affiliated with the Democrats OR the Republicans.

No chance...

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I am finding it kinda ironic that the only stuff makin any sense about it right now is coming from the two "resident kooks"...

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich.

I dunno folks, maybe we should start listening to the folk who warned of this, were shouted down as kooks, and then have responsible solutions in hand while the rest of them are scrambling to cover their asses.

Just a thought.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Perhaps you've seen this already --- if so, I apologize.



Dear American:

I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.

I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.

I am working with Mr. Phil Gram, lobbyist for UBS, who will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a Senator, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. This transaction is 100% safe.

This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred.

Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds.

Yours Faithfully Minister of Treasury Paulson


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Rue:

Yep, that's about the long and short of it. Our new economic plan will be based on the Nigerian E-Mail Chain Letter model...

Ain't life grand?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA



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Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Say goodbye to the value of your dollars.

What I don't get is this: let's say there are 1 million households facing foreclosure (a generous estimate since "Nationwide, 739,714 homes received at least one foreclosure-related notice ..." but are not necessarily in foreclosure.). There are 305,249,245 (more or less) people in the US. http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html . The average household size is 2.59 http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts. Simple math gives us 117,860,000 US households. A million foreclosures is 0.8% of all US households. Let's assume that roughly half would have been foreclosed under normal circumstances - that leaves 0.4% of all US households that are facing foreclosure due to predatory lending. Does that justify ruining the value of the dollar for everyone ?

Or look at it another way - $700 billion will be spent due to 1 million homes. That's $700,000 per household. Were ALL these people buying million dollar homes ? And, WHAT is all that extra bailout money going for ? Or should I say who ?


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:42 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:


Or look at it another way - $700 billion will be spent due to 1 million homes. That's $700,000 per household. Were ALL these people buying million dollar homes ? And, WHAT is all that extra money going for ? Or should I say who ?


The way I understand the plan, only a small portion of the 700 billion will go to help homeowners, and those that will be helped must not already be in foreclosure or behind on their payments. It's going to help responsible homeowners that could afford to keep their homes with better loan terms, primarily by getting them into fixed rate loans. Most of the 700 billion is going to be used to buy the Mortgage Backed Securities that have caused the financial markets to freeze up due to the inability to sell these securities at any price. Banks have been force to mark their balance sheets to market and because these assets are currently illiquide the market price for these securities is far below their actual value. This causes their balance sheets to look much worse than they actually are. Anybody that thinks that the banks and brokerages are going to come out on top because of this "bailout" doesn't understand the facts. The only benefit they are getting is that they don't have to claim bankruptcy. They will have to post massive losses when the Fed buys their security portfolios. The Fed is going to buy these securities at the market price, which is a lot lower than their actual value. If Paulson does this right and buys them low enough other buyers will start coming into the market and over time the Fed can sell them back into the open market, hopefully at a profit. Even if the Fed can't resell these securities they can hold them to maturity(about 7years) and possibly profit. I'm fairly optimistic that if we can keep congresses hands off the 700 billion, we might actually profit from this in the long run.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Most of the 700 billion is going to be used to buy the Mortgage Backed Securities that have caused the financial markets to freeze up due to the inability to sell these securities at any price. Banks have been force to mark their balance sheets to market and because these assets are currently illiquide the market price for these securities is far below their actual value. This causes their balance sheets to look much worse than they actually are."

So, the banks did the wrong thing by being undercapitalized, they sold speculative bonds, and the regulators were asleep at the switch, worse they were aiding and abetting. And this is my problem --- how ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
I'm fairly optimistic that if we can keep congresses hands off the 700 billion, we might actually profit from this in the long run.

Oh, someone will, that's for sure and that's for certain.

isall

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, the banks did the wrong thing by being undercapitalized, they sold speculative bonds, and the regulators were asleep at the switch, worse they were aiding and abetting. And this is my problem --- how ?


I'll be checking back for an answer to this.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:35 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

It's going to help responsible homeowners that could afford to keep their homes with better loan terms, primarily by getting them into fixed rate loans.



So if someone can't pay their mortgage they are irresponsonle? Cause thats insulting.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:40 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:


So if someone can't pay their mortgage they are irresponsible? Cause that's insulting.


Of course they are; to not see the sharks bite your legs means you deserve to die.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

As someone who is riding the fine line of being able to pay my own mortgage, I can tell you that I have acted irresponsibly.

Having sworn to myself that I would never purchase a home by using an ARM (Adjustable Rate Mortgage) I was convinced to do so by my spouse. Eager to own a home, she colluded with my mortgage broker to assure me that after faithfully making payments for a year, I would be able to refinance to a better rate, and a fixed one at that.

Thus bolstered with confidence, I ignored my own good sense and signed on the dotted line. And then the real estate market crashed, and my home is worth about fifteen thousand less than I bought it for. So I can not refinance, the ARM is up, and my struggles have commenced.

I was irresponsible. I knew better. I did it anyway, and I was wrong.

Still... I'd hate to lose my home. Every month sees me undertake creative re-budgeting in order to preserve my ownership. How long, I wonder, can I hope to keep it up? Every month gets harder, and Christmas will be bare.

So, is it insulting to be told I am irresponsible for not being able to make my mortgage payments? Yes, it is insulting. It is insulting in the same way as calling a fat person fat, or a stupid person stupid. It's insulting because it's true, and the shame of that truth burns.

However, if you want to call it impolite, I will agree there as well.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


AnthonyT

If the bailout money was going to the people who were at best misled and at worst defrauded in their loans I would be very much with the plan. But it's not, you see, at least not most of it. It's going to make good on the fat-cats' investments. And that really pisses me off.

You believed the house (no - HOME) to be a worthy investment. There's no shame in that. I wish you and your wife the best.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:52 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Well, I am losing my house. But, I acted responsibly. I spent 17 years following my husband from duty station to duty station. I was faithful and did everything society says I was supposed to do. We moved to this area when he retired and bought a house with a VA loan. Our plan was to use his retirement money to pay the mortgage and to work and continue to save. Well 6 months after closing he moved in with a skank, took all the savings and left me in a house with 2 teenagers and a house payment I could not afford, in a town with little to no real estate market. So here I sit in a run down house I can not afford to finish remodelling and can not sell and, more importantly, can't pay for. So is it insulting to be told I am irresponsible. Extremely. It is also completely wrong.

ETA: I also do not have an ARM and would never purchase anything with an adjustable rate.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Best of luck with your home, Tony. With a little budgeting & determination, I'm confident you'll be okay.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, the banks did the wrong thing by being undercapitalized, they sold speculative bonds, and the regulators were asleep at the switch, worse they were aiding and abetting. And this is my problem --- how ?


I'll be checking back for an answer to this.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:06 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So, the banks did the wrong thing by being undercapitalized, they sold speculative bonds, and the regulators were asleep at the switch, worse they were aiding and abetting. And this is my problem --- how ?


I'll be checking back for an answer to this.



The reason it's your "problem now" is that the Fed was starting to see signs of panic in the financial markets. If this plan hadn't been announced by Friday, it's possible that the stock market would have crashed on Friday followed by a run on the banks and riots by Monday or Tuesday. That's how bad the Fed thinks this problem is.
The securities in question are backed by home mortgages and the mortgages are backed by the properties mortgaged. One of the reasons these securities aren't worth zero like a stock in a bankrupt company is that homes have intrinsic value(like gold) unlike many financial instruments. Many of the banks actually believed or deluded themselves into believing these securities were very safe. Mortgages have always been a very safe investment for banks in the past because people only give up their houses as a last resort. Plus, back when 20% down payments were required the banks had a cushion even if they were forced to foreclose. The banks actually believed they were well capitalised with high quality mortgages, but it turns out if you give people a home loan with zero down payment, homeowners have little to lose by walking away from their homes when prices fall and the banks don't have the down payment to cover their losses.
I agree with you that we shouldn't have to pay for others mistakes, but unfortunately the banks did nothing illegal in most cases and we only have ourselves to blame because we do live in a country with a representative form of government and everyone in Washington since Carter has some culpability in this.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The reason it's your "problem now" is that the Fed was starting to see signs of panic in the financial markets. If this plan hadn't been announced by Friday, it's possible that the stock market would have crashed on Friday followed by a run on the banks and riots by Monday or Tuesday."

And ---- so what ? If the banks fail the government has to print money anyway - FDIC, remember ? - except it goes directly to the people. And not some version of bailout tinkle-on - I mean, trickle down. Or just let people keep their homes for free - it would be cheaper, less than half the current price-tag. And a market crash is long overdue b/c market value has been long based on speculation.

The riots are a dramatic effect you added. I can see long lines at the bank.

Still ain't my problem.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"The reason it's your "problem now" is that the Fed was starting to see signs of panic in the financial markets. If this plan hadn't been announced by Friday, it's possible that the stock market would have crashed on Friday followed by a run on the banks and riots by Monday or Tuesday."

And ---- so what ? If the banks fail the government has to print money anyway - FDIC, remember ? - except it goes directly to the people. And not some version of bailout tinkle-on - I mean, trickle down. Or just let people keep their homes for free - it would be cheaper. And a market crash is long overdue b/c market value has been long based on speculation.

The riots are a dramatic effect you added. I can see long lines at the bank.

Still ain't my problem.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




Exactly.

My feelings of sympathy for the banks and lawmakers who knowingly walked into this mine field without a minesweeper in front of them is the same as their sympathy for me if I fall on hard times. In other words, "Fuck 'em." They dug themselves in, and I could give two shits about how hard they get hit by the shitstorm they created.

Mike





This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:33 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


The killers are with the patient

By Darryl Robert Schoon

" There is nothing more dangerous than when those responsible for a nation’s troubles are believed to be its savior.

The WSJ had one fact correct regarding Wall Street’s accelerating collapse when on September 20th they wrote: When government officials surveyed the failing American financial system this week, they didn’t see only a collapsed investment bank or the surrender of a giant insurance firm. They saw the circulatory system of the US economy - credit markets - starting to fail.

The WSJ was correct in that the circulatory system of the US economy was failing. Because the WSJ is the house organ of Wall Street investment banks and their co-conspirators in government, the WSJ blamed deteriorating credit markets for America’s troubles, not those responsible - to wit, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, and their cohorts at the Federal Reserve Banks.

As we collectively move towards the economic disaster awaiting us, the investment community is hoping the world’s central banks will be able to save them from the crisis. If the truth be known - and someday it will be - central banks are at the very center of today’s problems. Indeed, they caused them. Today’s disintegration of capital markets based on debt-based paper began in 1913 with the creation of the US Federal Reserve Bank, the central bank of the US.

Debt-based paper money has led nations and the world down a very dangerous path. Facilitating expansion by encumbering future revenues with compounding debt inevitably indebts individuals, businesses, and governments beyond their ability to repay. In the beginning, production expands, needs are met and everyone goes home happy. In the end, everyone’s home gets repossessed. This is when the amount of debt has grown so large; governments, businesses, and consumers collapse under its collective weight. That’s where we are today. We lived off tomorrow and tomorrow has arrived. What a surprise. "

There's more :

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C09%5C26%5Cstory_2
6-9-2008_pg5_50


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

http://www.breakthematrix.com

http://endthefed.us



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Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I feel ya.

We went fixed rate and played pretty damn rough to get a favorable (i.e. a bit less exploitive) set of terms, and I went the extra mile with an added proviso that they could not under any circumstances or conditions, sell this loan to Citibank/Citigroup as a deal-breaker precondition that would amount to breach of contract in the whole.

And anyone care to guess what the first fucking thing they did was ?

And having to hear from my lawyer that it would cost more to try to have the provision actually enforced than to pay off the loan entire doesn't exactly make me fuckin happy, does it ?

Especially with shittybank changing payment dates at random and sending the notices often after the changed payment date, or holding the checks for up to eleven days after receipt before cashing them, or in one case cashing them for 1/10th of the face value in an effort to do ANYTHING they can possibly do to cause a missed payment - forestalled only by the fact that we're paid three months ahead and keep it that way even if it means an empty fridge, cause those fuckers wanna rob us out of here any way they can.

A lot of those so-called "irresponsible" folk facing foreclosure actually did play by the book and responsibly, and got fucked over by the bag of dirty tricks alluded to above because they were not rabidly, hatefully, paranoid enough when it came to the fucking economic predators that are mortgage companies.

Shittybank wants this place real badly now cause they're up to their neck in shit too, and if you happen to be on the upside of a mortage, you better start armor plating your ass, folks, cause they'll do just about anything short of sending in armed goons to fucking take it from you - by any means they can possibly get away with, laws and regulations notwithstanding.

That some folk might have been less than responsible does not in any way excuse the fact that these assholes are so crooked they make the mafia look like paragons of law and order.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 6:51 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


do not bailout the wall street crime syndicate

stop the destruction of the US Dollar !!

or else watch them get the hell out of dodge using their prearranged escape plan and take most of the money with them (stealing our taxes)

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Friday, September 26, 2008 10:18 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

It's going to help responsible homeowners that could afford to keep their homes with better loan terms, primarily by getting them into fixed rate loans.



So if someone can't pay their mortgage they are irresponsonle? Cause thats insulting.



Nobody is saying that the inability to make your house payment makes you irresponsible. What constitutes an irresponsible homeowner in my opinion is someone who bought their home betting that home prices would continue to rise so they could resell the home and make a quick buck. Many people bought their houses knowing they couldn't make the payment, but as long as prices continued to go up they could just get a home equity line of credit to make their payments. Others took out huge home equity loans to buy cars and vacations that they otherwise couldn't have afforded. Obviously if you lost your job or your income dropped due to the downturn in the economy, or other unpredictable circumstances, you're not irresponsible.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 11:01 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

As someone who is riding the fine line of being able to pay my own mortgage, I can tell you that I have acted irresponsibly.

Having sworn to myself that I would never purchase a home by using an ARM (Adjustable Rate Mortgage) I was convinced to do so by my spouse. Eager to own a home, she colluded with my mortgage broker to assure me that after faithfully making payments for a year, I would be able to refinance to a better rate, and a fixed one at that.

Thus bolstered with confidence, I ignored my own good sense and signed on the dotted line. And then the real estate market crashed, and my home is worth about fifteen thousand less than I bought it for. So I can not refinance, the ARM is up, and my struggles have commenced.

I was irresponsible. I knew better. I did it anyway, and I was wrong.

Still... I'd hate to lose my home. Every month sees me undertake creative re-budgeting in order to preserve my ownership. How long, I wonder, can I hope to keep it up? Every month gets harder, and Christmas will be bare.

So, is it insulting to be told I am irresponsible for not being able to make my mortgage payments? Yes, it is insulting. It is insulting in the same way as calling a fat person fat, or a stupid person stupid. It's insulting because it's true, and the shame of that truth burns.

However, if you want to call it impolite, I will agree there as well.

--Anthony



Quote:

Originally from Rue:
If the bailout money was going to the people who were at best misled and at worst defrauded in their loans I would be very much with the plan. But it's not, you see, at least not most of it. It's going to make good on the fat-cats' investments. And that really pisses me off.
You believed the house (no - HOME) to be a worthy investment. There's no shame in that. I wish you and your wife the best.



What she said, T-man, what she said. (I wish I could say that it was a significant other who talked me into all the ill-advised b.s. I've got up to over the years...)


It was like something else when we got here!

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