REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Capital Offense

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:05
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Monday, September 8, 2008 5:07 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
By your own twisted logic, doesn't that mean that Palin/McCain is sinking fast? I mean, look at how berserk you and Riverlove are going about them! That must be a sign of their impending doom...


History is not on your side...

H

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Monday, September 8, 2008 6:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I will point out that if McCain-Palin win the WH we're in for four years of shrinking civil liberties, religion in the WH, and hard times... very hard times... for most Americans.- Signy

If I thought for a second that it would be any better at all with Obama, I might be excited now.-6ix

It would be somewhat better with Obama. Being realistic about it, I truly cannot lump Democrats in with Republicans and say there is "no" difference and neither can you. I can't say whether there is ENOUGH of a difference to be meaningful to you. I'd more or less ignored Obama until I listened to Palin and McCain, and then I was truly horrified. Now I'll have to look at the Dem party platform and Obama's record in all seriousness to see if he warrants my vote. I agree that many of the candidates are closer to my own thinking than either of the two.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Monday, September 8, 2008 9:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Imagine what the GOP could do with good candidates...I mean if it takes the most money they've ever had and the most appealing candidate they've ever had to bring the race just close...the Democrats really have no business in the White House.

Can't say I disagree, when only parity of incompetence is keeping it close, that's pretty fuckin sad, innit ?

McCain shoulda rolled up Barr as Veep - Ron Paul woulda told him where to stick it if he even asked, but Barr is an ambitious little shit and might well have jumped onboard.

At which point it woulda been all over but the singing...
Although had it went that way we'd prolly be mired in WWIII within 2 years, alas.

Seriously though.

Right now we need to get the fuck out of other peoples countries, and quit givin em our money, put those troops back with their families, contributing to the economy, and start working hard on our badly neglected infrastructure.

The rest of the world can fucking WAIT, and if some of those returning troops are willing to help out on the border patrol, throw em a bonus and relocation allotment to fuckin do so - and then just take those fence jumpers back and dump em, the hell with detaining them, just keep kickin em back over till they get tired of it.

Meanwhile, put up an easy 1-2-3 legal immigration station at customs, and fuck this seven years shit, hand out the W2's right there, the IRS is damned efficient at getting their money or some ass, let THEM worry about that end.

We CAN fix this, we just need a president with enough balls to do it, and I don't think a one of em, even any of the potentials and also-rans, does.

So who do we have for a real hardass with a domestic focus instead of an imperial one, who's willing to sink their own political career for four years of desperate damage control ?

Nobody, that's who... but if ya find one, ya might convince me.

-Frem

PS. Re: Bev Harris/BBV - you know folks, that shit works BOTH ways, one reason the Dems don't wanna fix it is their intention to exploit it once they get in power, but in order to do that they need a margin greater than the machines are programmed to fudge - so they better get their shit together and in gear fast, or they'll not get it.

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Monday, September 8, 2008 12:09 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Oh good, Signym has foreseen the future...and returns to warn us all to vote Left-wing.
Well, I just wanted to get it out there, so that you won't say You couldn't have known! Because I can and I do. And you can too, if you just keep your eyes and ears open and think a little bit.

Thanks! I’ll make a note of that with all the other “repent or burn” demands I’ve gotten from people.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 8, 2008 12:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Thanks! I’ll make a note of that with all the other “repent or burn” demands I’ve gotten from people.
You ignored "no WMD", you denied the current economic meltdown. I'll bet dollars to donuts you didn't even predict 9-11. I'll tell you, denying reality is not exactly the way to learn.

I just wanted you to remember what I said: if McCain is elected things will go downhill for the average person. Very downhill.

I've had what I think is a pretty good track record of knowing and predicting:

9-11. Not the specifics but yes, the general idea.

The lack of WMD.

The invasion of Iraq, and and bloody mess it would become. (And partitioning Iraq to stabilize it. Which is exactly what the US is doing, very quietly.)

The economic meltdown.


As a scientist, and (I hope) a realist, I figure that if you can't test your hypothesis in a lab then it should at least be able to predict events. If you can't predict events, then what good is your hypothesis?

My current hypothesis is that McCain will:

Use military force whenever possible and alienate even our allies.

Continuing to shovel government money at the very wealthy, fuck over the populace, bankrupt the nation and finish off the dollar.

Chip away at privacy rights until the right to privacy is gone.






---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Monday, September 8, 2008 12:55 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I just wanted you to remember what I said: if McCain is elected things will go downhill for the average person. Very downhill.

Yes, so you said. Thanks for you input, though pointless it may be. Do you also read palms? When the preacherman tells me that this nation is doomed to burn in hell if I don’t accept his ideological story, do you expect me to believe that too? Or is it just your story that's that's the "real" truth?




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 8, 2008 1:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

...and then just take those fence jumpers back and dump em, the hell with detaining them, just keep kickin em back over till they get tired of it.


Well, I *DID* see a satirical proposal to put man-sized catapults along the border to fling them back across the fence... :)

And the fence really isn't an answer. Build a 20-foot fence along the border, and you'll have factories sprouting up on the other side building and selling 21-foot ladders and trampolines.

And they're talking about doing things like building the fence so that it goes seven miles to either side of El Paso, which is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. Seriously, if you're willing to risk life and limb to cross the border and walk through the desert to get here, I don't think walking a few extra miles to get around the fence is going to faze you...



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, September 8, 2008 1:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yes, so you said. Thanks for you input, though pointless it may be.
Huh. Well, I thought it was pretty pointed. Maybe I should get a 2X4 to assist communication?
Quote:

Do you also read palms?
I COULD be snarky and ask Do you even read? But, I'm not gonna go down YOUR path!
Quote:

When the preacherman tells me that this nation is doomed to burn in hell if I don’t accept his ideological story, do you expect me to believe that too?
Of course not. I'm not religious, and you shouldn't be either. All I'm saying is... open your eyes and ears. Pay attention even to stuff that doesn't digest too well.
Quote:

Or is it just your story that's that's the "real" truth?
There is only one reality, one truth. Nobody knows the whole of it; the point is to get closer. As much as they annoy me I value people who show me I'm going in the wrong direction. But it takes a lot more than snark to do that, as it should for you too.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Monday, September 8, 2008 2:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

But it takes a lot more than snark to do that...


Bite your tongue!

Snark is my stock in trade! Where would I be without it?

(Was that too snarky?)



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, September 8, 2008 3:23 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Of course not. I'm not religious, and you shouldn't be either. All I'm saying is... open your eyes and ears. Pay attention even to stuff that doesn't digest too well.

I see. So I shouldn’t be religious? So if I “open [my] eyes and ears” and discover a reason for religion, then what? It’s puzzling to me, Signym, how it is that you are so unable to hear the zealotry in your own voice.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 8, 2008 3:25 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
I'm sure Palin and McCain's speeches got the money rolling in to the Obama camp from China and the Axis of Evil.

And this is why you're an idiot in these matters, Kirk, when Bush detractors say war for oil, you call it as wrong, but YOU'RE allowed to go all simple in the other direction.
You're angry & mean, just like the peeps you want in office, plus you drink too much and don't take enough vitamins.



Sorry about that one Chris. Your suspicion that my post was alcohol related is right on the mark. Although I do believe the Internet could be misused by foreign governments to influence our election, I don't believe the Dems would knowingly accept foreign money(Clinton's excepted). I actually think both Obama and Bidden are good men and only want what they think is best for our country. The thing is, I strongly feel their ideas will do great damage to our economy and the Constitutional rights I most value.

Needsmorevitaminsisall, Kirkules


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Monday, September 8, 2008 3:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

The thing is, I strongly feel their ideas will do great damage to our economy and the Constitutional rights I most value.


The thing is, I feel exactly the same way about the Republicans. And recent history has done nothing to dissuade me of that feeling.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, September 8, 2008 4:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I see. So I shouldn’t be religious? So if I “open [my] eyes and ears” and discover a reason for religion, then what? It’s puzzling to me, Signym, how it is that you are so unable to hear the zealotry in your own voice.
What I meant was... don't believe. Don't believe the doomsday preacher and don't believe me. If you find a reason for religion, well then, that's something you've thought about and can be discussed. Everything should be questioned. Even lack of faith.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Monday, September 8, 2008 4:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I will point out that if McCain-Palin win the WH we're in for four years of shrinking civil liberties, religion in the WH, and hard times... very hard times... for most Americans.



Unfortuately, if Obama/Biden win the White house, we're also in for four years of shrinking civil liberties and hard times - just different liberties and different hard times.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 8, 2008 4:47 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Sorry about that one Chris. Your suspicion that my post was alcohol related is right on the mark. Although I do believe the Internet could be misused by foreign governments to influence our election, I don't believe the Dems would knowingly accept foreign money(Clinton's excepted). I actually think both Obama and Bidden are good men and only want what they think is best for our country. The thing is, I strongly feel their ideas will do great damage to our economy and the Constitutional rights I most value.

Kirk, considering the kinds of utterly stupid things Chris has said and which are typically said of Bush and Republicans on this board by people who agree with his side of the story, no fair-minded person could ever blame you for not retracting the comment you made – it’s actually the height of hypocrisy that Chris even considered calling you on it. But it makes you a far more believable and credible poster that you did.

And I agree with you. I think both Obama and Biden want what’s best for this country, but I don’t necessarily agree with their assessment of what is best for this country, nor do I agree with their methods of achieving it, as much as I agree with ideals of McCain and Palin.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 8, 2008 6:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Unfortuately, if Obama/Biden win the White house, we're also in for four years of shrinking civil liberties and hard times - just different liberties and different hard times.
Such as?


---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 1:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I meant fence in a metaphorical sense, Mikey, as I concur it's idiotic and wasteful to bother building one that long.


Siggy - I DO have concerns about Obama and the Dems concerning my second amendment rights, as well as the non-enumerated right to be left the hell alone without Gov nitpickin every damn aspect of my life "for your own good".

That's the problem with the lesser of two evils...
It's still evil!

Even if he means well, I am quite concerned about anyone who wants to make sweeping changes in a system that has seen eight years of constant non-stop damage to the checks and balances designed to limit it's impact on us, leaving them threadbare and nebulous.

From all I have seen of the guy, he seems to have good intentions, but to be blunt, that happens to be what all the roads to hell are paved with.

I worry that once he climbs into that comfy chair in the oval office, the american people will breathe a heavy sigh of relief and go back to their lives - when they damn well oughta be paying attention.

I never want a president relaxed and comfy, I want them to be afraid of us, concerned about our collective opinions, and cautious about the policies they are setting - I want em to be fucking CAREFUL, is what it is, like they were clearing a minefield, without this willy-nilly decider type shit.

And it's OUR responsibility to instill that fear and caution upon anyone sitting in the oval office....

No matter what it takes.

So yeah, I have concerns, I think the people are gonna just sigh and look away, cause gettin him there is only the start, if we forget to snap the leash on - that can and will come back on us.

Remember what happened when folk ousted the Republican congressional majority, they expected them folk to do their jobs, let the pressure off, went back to watchin TV and drinkin beer - and what, nothin, that's what.

THIS time, we damn well better not blink, but sadly, I know that we will.


We're just prolonging the inevitable anyway, just a matter of how long it takes.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 1:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Siggy - I DO have concerns about Obama and the Dems concerning my second amendment rights, as well as the non-enumerated right to be left the hell alone without Gov nitpickin every damn aspect of my life "for your own good".

That's the problem with the lesser of two evils...
It's still evil!



Bingo. My support for Obama stems from the hope that he'll do the LEAST damage to our already fragile nation. I don't expect him to save us by the grace of his hand - that task is solely in OUR hands.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 11:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

Sorry about that one Chris. Your suspicion that my post was alcohol related is right on the mark.

It is? I mean, of course it is.

Just funnin', you is a good sport, Kirk.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 11:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Kirk, considering the kinds of utterly stupid things Chris has said and which are typically said of Bush and Republicans on this board by people who agree with his side of the story, no fair-minded person could ever blame you for not retracting the comment you made – it’s actually the height of hypocrisy that Chris even considered calling you on it.

Finn...just when I think we might come to an understanding of sorts...Okay *gloves off*, you wanna talk STUPID??? Where do you get off tellin' Signy & others that they couldn't have 'known' there were no WMD? You dolt- by that reasoning ANY judgement you make based on ANY knowledge or evidence is wrong, and if it isn't- that's just coincidence! Get all black & white with ME willya??? Why, you're just a thorizine delusion I might be having in a mental ward, and NOTHING you can do or say can disprove that possibility!!!

You dummy, I knew the NeoCon track record, the history of past lies & patterns of force, the oil goals, the hurried rush to attack before inspection teams could get finished- and I didn't need a SLIDE RULE or precog abilities to judge that it was bullshit, but YOU, Finn, so ensconced in the idiotic lockstep of the hawk mentality as you are, were of course BLIND to what was going on, and in your typical superiority complex-like thinking, if YOU could not have known it wasn't for real, NO ONE could have.

How's them apples?

...height of hypocrisy...hmmph...

Wanna try for Double Jeapordy where the stakes can really increase???




The really pissed off, blood pressure increased, totally serious *Coughnot* Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 12:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Better duck, he's reachin for the boomerang.

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 6:38 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
How's them apples?

Fine. Just don’t tell someone else not to serve you the same slice of pie.

And neither signy or you could have known there were no WMD, and technically still can't. An inability to find something is not evidence that it doesn't exist. If that were the case, my car keys would cease to exist every morning for about 30 minutes before work.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 8:59 PM

HKCAVALIER


But, um...the CIA just admittd that they knew Hussein was lying. And they knew why (Iran). And anyone REMOTELY FAMILIAR with Hussein's culture knew that Hussein would say anything to make his government look as dangerous as possible (again, mainly for the benefit of the Iranians listening in--but also in hopes that we might think twice before wiping him off the face of the Earth--the fact that Bush went ahead and hit Hussein anyway, without equipping the troops with adequate protective gear was indication enough for anyone to see what our government knew and what they did not).

And anyone aware of the most basic human behavior knew that Bush was rushing us into war, disregarding the weapons inspectors, pushing the fabricated connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq for a reason. Anyone who knows rudimentary geography knew Hussein was not an "imminent threat" the the United States.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 9, 2008 10:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Seriously...

They got no navy worth a shit, never did - and no air force to speak of.

The effective combat range of an Ak-47 is what, about 300, 400 yards at best ?

Last I heard, the Atlantic Ocean was a bit wider than that.

-F

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
How's them apples?

Fine. Just don’t tell someone else not to serve you the same slice of pie.

And neither signy or you could have known there were no WMD, and technically still can't. An inability to find something is not evidence that it doesn't exist. If that were the case, my car keys would cease to exist every morning for about 30 minutes before work.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero




Hello,

I think it's safe to say we've given the lads in charge much more than 30 minutes to find their keys and make their case.

It's okay to say "I was wrong about that WMD stuff, and so was the admin." I had to say it. I used to be gung-ho for invasion back then. I believed what I'd been told, and then it turned out to be wrong, and I looked pretty dumb for drinking the proverbial kool-aid.

The admin was wrong. I was wrong. You can be wrong, too, and still live a long, happy life where you are right about other things.

It's kind of liberating, once the truth is embraced. It's much harder to keep defending an untenable position than it is to admit your folly and move on to better bastions of belief.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 2:10 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Last I heard, the Atlantic Ocean was a bit wider than that.



But...but....but...

"OCEANS NO LONGER PROTECT US!!!!"







If the prefix "pro-" means "for" or "in favor of", and "con" is its opposite, and if "progress" means "pushing forward" or "improving"... then what the hell does "Congress" mean?

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:32 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
It's kind of liberating, once the truth is embraced. It's much harder to keep defending an untenable position than it is to admit your folly and move on to better bastions of belief.

What exactly is truth? That WMDs are hard to find? Weapons of mass destruction are without question among the most heavily guarded secrets of any nation. That Hussein may have lied about having WMDs (my own opinion)? Except this wasn’t always a lie, we know for a fact he did once have huge stock piles of WMDs, while claiming to have them. That CIA intelligence now claims that WMDs may not have existed? The same CIA intelligence that claimed they did exist.

What is truth? Is Signy telling us all that she has clairvoyant powers to see the future, truth? Or is it just Signy arrogantly pumping her own ego? The truth is that people, who claim that WMDs certainly don’t and didn’t exist in Iraq, are operating on the same arrogance as those who claimed they certainly did. And for people who insisted that those who “knew” there were WMDs before the War are “lying,” it’s ironic that based on that same logic, all of those who now claim there are no WMDs must be “lying.”

So yeah, Signy can pretend all she wants that she can see the future and if the world doesn’t repent and bend to her will that we are all doomed to burn in some hell. A lot of people think like that, which is fine, but I don’t. On WMDs, the opinion that I held before the war is the same I hold now. We couldn’t know then, anymore then we can know now, whether those weapons existed or didn’t exist – but the relevant issue was always whether or not we could have confidence in some kind of non-political conclusion. Given the way the UNSC was bought and paid for by Hussein – there was no way we could have that confidence.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:23 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If that were the case, my car keys would cease to exist every morning for about 30 minutes before work.


Perhaps they do cease to exist for 30 minutes before work.

Is it a Honda? Cause I used to have a Honda with the same problem.

I think its a translation problem with the Jap technology or perhaps its related to that guy from Heroes.

H

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:11 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What is truth? Is Signy telling us all that she has clairvoyant powers to see the future, truth? Or is it just Signy arrogantly pumping her own ego? The truth is that people, who claim that WMDs certainly don’t and didn’t exist in Iraq, are operating on the same arrogance as those who claimed they certainly did. And for people who insisted that those who “knew” there were WMDs before the War are “lying,” it’s ironic that based on that same logic, all of those who now claim there are no WMDs must be “lying.”


I thought there was no where near enough evidence to justify a war, what do I win.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:19 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Everybody that voted for the Iraq War should be lined up and shot.

The ones that didn't vote for it, Obama & Palin, can decide who'll get the President's job over a game of one-on-one basketball. If that seems a bit unfair, then maybe they could have a dance-off.

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

clairvoyant powers
GOD, Finn!!!! Where did I say I had "clairvoyant powers?"" I'm a scientist and I try to be a realist. It's all about the data and the model that you use to intepret it. IF you take in data w/o filtering it too heavily AND you let the information talk to you w/o trying to shout it down, you'll be making accurate predictions too.

So open your eyes. Look around. Pay attention even tho... no, especially if something rubs your assumptions the wrong way.


---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:17 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That CIA intelligence now claims that WMDs may not have existed? The same CIA intelligence that claimed they did exist.



We couldn’t know then, anymore then we can know now, whether those weapons existed or didn’t exist

I am forced to conclude from these statements that you're okay with going to war on a whim, er, I mean, a perception, no matter how impossible to confirm.

Could Han PROVE that Greedo's weapon was loaded? He saw it, heard Greedo's direct intention to kill him, but by your thinking, he should have shot him at first sight if he believed himself to be in danger at all...or is it that he should have let Greedo pull the trigger to see if he was telling the truth regarding his deadly intent...(?)...wow Finn, I don't see how you even drive to work successfully without making correct value judgements concerning the absolutely unknowable factors that generally present themselves...

Double Jeapordyisall

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:30 AM

CITIZEN


Finn works for the Pentagon right? The Pentagon that said within six months of the invasion American troop strength would be down too 5-6 thousand?

What's it at now, over 150,000? Don't you see? He has too act like no one could have known, because he and his colleagues have made some pretty stupid, and frankly incompetent predictions of their own. Piss up and brewery comes to mind, anyway, Finn could lose his job for being an incompetent moron if he doesn't shout down anything that might expose his obvious incompetency and stupidity. He's a man running scared, be lenient...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Okay, I'll let up.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:19 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

clairvoyant powers
GOD, Finn!!!! Where did I say I had "clairvoyant powers?"" I'm a scientist and I try to be a realist. It's all about the data and the model that you use to intepret it. IF you take in data w/o filtering it too heavily AND you let the information talk to you w/o trying to shout it down, you'll be making accurate predictions too.

So open your eyes. Look around. Pay attention even tho... no, especially if something rubs your assumptions the wrong way.

I’m a scientist too. And as a scientist I understand the limits of data – which cannot foretell the future. Heisenberg pointed that out already. So if I’m to believe the supposed accuracy with which you tout your predictive powers, I must be willing to accept your clairvoyant powers, which actually I don’t. It’s seems far more likely to me that you simply arrived at an ideologically drive conclusion after the fact, and now claim that you ‘always knew it.’



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:23 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Could Han PROVE that Greedo's weapon was loaded? He saw it, heard Greedo's direct intention to kill him, but by your thinking, he should have shot him at first sight if he believed himself to be in danger at all...or is it that he should have let Greedo pull the trigger to see if he was telling the truth regarding his deadly intent...(?)...wow Finn, I don't see how you even drive to work successfully without making correct value judgements concerning the absolutely unknowable factors that generally present themselves...

Actually by my way of thinking, Han should have waited 10 years while the whole issue was discussed in a committee, as Greedo bought himself two vetoes with lucrative oil contracts, muddying the whole affair with sanctions applied to Greedo in which millions innocent people were killed, until finally some of Jabba’s people flies a plane into the Millennium Falcon, forcing Han to finally make a decision on this whole Greedo affair. Or yeah, he could have just shot him, like he did.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Or yeah, he could have just shot him, like he did.


So where was Saddam's cocked gun?

As AU would say, try again.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I’m a scientist too. And as a scientist I understand the limits of data – which cannot foretell the future.

The sun will rise tomorrow. Barring cosmic catastrophe the earth will contine to spin and orbit around its star, as it has done for the past several eons. Now, tell me... is that not a prediction?

I will let go of this apple, and (barring an unforseen space-time warp) it will drop towards the greatest nearby gravitational attractor, which is the earth. Is THAT not a prediction?

I will flip this switch and complete a connection, and something that we think of as "electrons" will flow through a metal filament, causing it to glow, and my bread will be toasted. Is THAT not a prediction?

I don't know what kind of a scientist you think you are, but the main point of science is to develop hypotheses, and main point of hypotheses IS to predict. So while "data" can't predict the future, the OTHER part of the scientific process... forming and testing hypotheses... does exactly that. And the hypothesis that proves to be the most reliable... wins. At least until something better comes along.

So, are you insisting that because our understanding does not provide mathematical certainty we should just plug our ears, shut our eyes, and stop thinking?

If you don't like my hypothesis and predictions, come up with something better. Stop trying to tear down the whole scientific process because you don't like the results.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OH BTW Finn, since you seem to think I'm taking credit after-the-fact, here are a bunch of threads from 2004... the farthest back I could find on this website, where I repeatedly say that Saddam did not have WMD. And if I could find some postings on other websites, you'd see that I said the same thing elsewhere, and earlier.

www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=7935

War is Peace (from 2004)
www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=7427

Saddam Hussein was NOT a threat (Oct 2004)
www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=7397

Don’t Get Mad, It’s for Our Troops
www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=5066



---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 1:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Eh. So much for science.

Like I said, people are not generally objective or rational.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:32 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I realize that it’s all as simple as the sun coming up tomorrow for you, but that’s because you’re opinion is independent of the data or scientific process. Such as the devoutly religious see the existence of their god or gods as obvious and indisputable, so you see your own ideology. But the data or its analysis is not simple. We are often bereft by multiple sources of incomplete and or poorly translated information that is often intentionally distorted through encryption and/or disinformation. In the real world, we can rarely hope to test hypotheses as if gathering intel was no more involved then a college chemistry lab. While we may be able to rely on the sun coming up tomorrow or gravity pulling apples to the earth, we cannot so cavalierly describe intel gathered from flawed, duplicitous and often malicious rogue state. And those that do, do so because they have already made up their minds independent of what the data may or may not say.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

And those that do, do so because they have already made up their minds independent of what the data may or may not say.



And those that DON'T properly interpret the data, or who fudge the data, misconstrue the data, distort the data, and outright lie about the data, refuse to look at it objectively because they have already made up THEIR minds independent of what the data may or may not say.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Finn

So, your excuse is - what exactly ?

Maybe you need to ask yourself this: How did so many people reach the right conclusions while you failed so completely ? Because in the end a LOT of people were better at it than you. What made you different from them ? What did you do wrong ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Finn

So, your excuse is - what exactly ?

Maybe you need to ask yourself this: How did so many people reach the right conclusions while you failed so completely ? Because in the end a LOT of people were better at it than you. What made you different from them ? What did you do wrong ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Threw out data which didn't correlate with his preconceived conclusion, distorted other data, and forced the desired result... you know, science stuff!




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Maybe you need to ask yourself this: How did so many people reach the right conclusions while you failed so completely ? Because in the end a LOT of people were better at it than you. What made you different from them ? What did you do wrong ?

So many people didn’t. Before the US/UK went into Iraq to set the record one way or another, most people were pretty certain that Hussein had WMDs.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA



...


...


...
Wait for it
...


...


Cites, please ?

-F

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:18 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh damn ! You beat me to it !

So ------ I second that !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can't speak for most people, but I thought he had WMD. I was woefully mistaken, however.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I can't speak for most people, but I thought he had WMD. I was woefully mistaken, however.

And such was the consensus of the US Intelligence Community, as well as much of the world:


From the US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report On the US IC PreWar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq, July 7, 2004, much of which still remains classified, but this much is not:

On the US IC consensus on Iraq’s Biological weapons:

Quote:

(U)In February 1999, the Intelligence Community reported in Iraq.• WMD and Delivery Capabilities After Operation Desert Fox, that Iraq probably retained the personnel, documentation, and much of the critical equipment necessary to continue and advance its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and delivery programs. Iraq possessed biological agent20 stockpiles that could be, or already were, weaponized and ready for use, but the paper did not state definitively that Iraq had biological weapons. The size of those agent stockpiles was said to be uncertain and subject to debate, and the location, nature, and condition of the stockpiles was also unknown. Iraq's production of biological weapons was assessed to be largely dormant, but the IC observed that Iraq could begin BW agent production within days of a decision to do so.




On the US IC consensus on Iraq’s Chemical weapons:

Quote:

(U) For example, The National Intelligence Council (NIC) produced a NIC memorandum, Iraq: Outstanding WMD and Missile Issues in September 1998 and produced a follow-on memorandum of the same title in November 1998 which comprehensively addressed UNSCOM's assessments of Iraq's outstanding compliance issues. The papers noted that the Intelligence Community generally agrees with the assessments made by UNSCOM and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) about Iraq's remaining WMD efforts and capabilities. Regarding CW, the IC assessed that:

• Gaps and inconsistencies in Iraqi declarations to UNSCOM strongly suggest that Iraq retains stockpiles of chemical munitions and agents.

• Iraq also had the residual technical expertise, facilities, and production equipment to quickly restart production at declared sites if UNSCOM is again barred from conducting inspections and on-site monitoring.

(U) In February 1999, soon after UNSCOM inspectors departed Iraq, several intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA),25 the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the U.S. Central Command produced a joint intelligence report, Iraq.• WMD and Delivery Capabilities After Operation Desert Fox. This assessment focused on the effectiveness of air strikes during Operation Desert Fox in destroying Iraq's WMD facilities and programs, but was not a comprehensive assessment of Iraq's WMD capabilities. The report noted:

• During Operation Desert Fox, few of Iraq's chemical warfare facilities were targeted or damaged and the operation probably had very little impact on Iraq's ability to reconstitute its chemical warfare programs.

• We believe that Iraq possesses chemical agent stockpiles that can be, or already are, weaponized and ready for use. The size, location, nature and condition of those stockpiles is unknown.

• We assess Iraq's production of chemical weapons to be largely dormant: however, Baghdad has the infrastructure necessary to support offensive programs. Without an effective monitoring presence, Iraq could probably resume its CW program immediately, if it has not already done so.






Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Iraq's production of biological weapons was assessed to be largely dormant ... We assess Iraq's production of chemical weapons to be largely dormant."

One doesn't have to be an expert to read the plain language.

It was the same kind of wording which is directed at obscuring the critical facts that made Colin Powell's pre-war UN presentration and David Kay's post-war WMD report so pathetic.

As for its 'nukular' capabilites - the 'mushroom cloud' Bush so infamously lied about - it was well known by all and sundry Iraq didn't have any.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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