REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Destruction of the US Dollar

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 14:43
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Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:25 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:



There are LOTS of Billionaires in Zimbabwe !

And , we ALL want to be Billionaires , Right ?



All of which makes you think about it, when you hear how many billionaires have been created in the last decade or so in the United States. Sure, they're billionaires and all, but a billion ain't what it used to be! :)

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money!"

Unless, of course, it's Zimbabwean money...

Quoth Monty Python: "My brain hurts."




Yeah , cackle-latin' an inflation rate of a couple MILLION percent is bound to make anyone's brain hurt...

There's the rub...Zimbabwean money ain't real...US Federal Reserve Notes ain't real...

And , predators (Reavers !) ain't real...

But , hey ! Since it's phony 'money' anyway , it won't matter that hundreds of Billions more 'Notes' are destined to ensure
UN-IF-FIC-aTION , " enforce the peace " , Disarm any potential Opposers , and bring all the settlers of the world to a more equal level of Poverty , Right ?

Makes everyone feel all Warm and Fuzzy , knowing that there's a devil put aside for each of Us...

Right ?

Now we can just embrace one another , and sit around the campfire and sing happy songs...

Right ?

" The Captain's got a Plan , right ? "

" The world's two biggest financial institutions have had a heart attack. The global currency system is breaking down. The policy doctrines that got us into this mess are bankrupt. No world leader seems able to discern the problem, let alone forge a solution.

The International Monetary Fund has abdicated into schizophrenia. It has upgraded its 2008 world forecast from 3.7pc to 4.1pc growth, whilst warning of a "chance of a global recession". Plainly, the IMF cannot or will not offer any useful insights."

<" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourVi
ew&xml=/money/2008/07/21/ccview121.xml
>


< http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56405>

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You think that currency isn't real ? Just wait till the banks close and you can't get of that phony stuff out. Trust me, it'll hurt.

***************************************************************
Like gold, or wampum, or bits of metal with the head of Julius Caesar stamped onto the side - currency is as valuable as we think it is.

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue. True, you're not going to walk out of a WalMart with groceries for the week without notes, but there worth is based only on people's perception of what their value is.

Take, for instance, how because of the price of copper has gone up so high while the value of the dollar has gone down, because the Fed doesn't have the balls to raise interest rates, that now it is becoming lucrative to melt down pennies and cash them in. It's not making a ton right now, but if we see both of those trends continue on, we'll likely eliminate the penny altogether as we run out of lighter and cheaper metals to keep mixing with that copper.

It's really why Capitalism gets a bad name in my book. There really isn't a Free Market or even True Capitalism when you have notes that aren't backed up by anything but a promise and the big boys on top can raise or lower interest rates to effect us common folk significantly in our decisions.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:58 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You think that currency isn't real ? Just wait till the banks close and you can't get of that phony stuff out. Trust me, it'll hurt.




No...It's not 'real'...It's not Lawful Money !

That's the whole point...'Debt' is Democratized , but Real Value , is Privatized...

Elitist , neo-Fascist Corporatocracy , coming to a neighborhood near you...

If I put my hands on any 'bank Notes' , for any reason , I'm sure to convert them to True Substance as soon as possible...

So , no worries...When the 'Alliance' decides to 'crash my accounts' , there won't be much point to it anymore...

Read the Links , Dude...

Folk can't help themselves if they're not informed...

I've noticed that Folk tend to not want to acknowledge the nature of the problem , although they do take stabs all around it...

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:20 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue...

Take, for instance, how because of the price of copper has gone up so high while the value of the dollar has gone down, because the Fed doesn't have the balls to raise interest rates, that now it is becoming lucrative to melt down pennies and cash them in. It's not making a ton right now, but if we see both of those trends continue on, we'll likely eliminate the penny altogether as we run out of lighter and cheaper metals to keep mixing with that copper.

It's really why Capitalism gets a bad name in my book. There really isn't a Free Market or even True Capitalism when you have notes that aren't backed up by anything but a promise and the big boys on top can raise or lower interest rates to effect us common folk significantly in our decisions.




If folk would ever bother to re-check the Coinage Act (1792) , they'd know that the poorest folk were well protected , in the original instance...Pennies were Worth MORE than their 'face value' , so that in a worst case situation , if anyone had as much as a few cents on hand , they'd still have something of True Substance , of significant worth and VALUE , that could be traded for other commodities of worth...

Now , since 1964 , even 'Silver' coins have had their worth extracted , and they're the non-Lawful 'cupro-nickel sandwich' , in the best case...

The pennies , as it turns out , are an even more egregious abuse...They used to be solid copper , but for more than 20 years are substantially , 'copper-washed zinc' , which is banker/lawyer/politician Federal Reserve Suckerese for 'there goes your True Substance and your Lawful Money yet again , chumps !'...

A fortunate few are able to find old pennies and melt them for exchange for the 'Bank Notes of the realm'...

The Liars and Deniers persist , but they are 'Heroes' at the expense of everyone else...

Witness the Worldwide Demand for frickin' manhole covers and sewer grates as 'currency'...

That's some big dang 'Coin' for common folk to have to tote around , but hey , the desperate do what has to done...

< http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTA_e
nUS286&q=stealing+manhole+covers
>

< http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=stealing+manhole+covers>

Oh yeah , the 'upscale' criminals are stealing the catalytic converters off of parked cars...A hacksaw will get you into that 'business'...

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

families using worthless bank notes to burn furnaces because it was cheaper than buying firewood.
Yeah O2B, that's what I said
Quote:

Even paper money might have a higher value... as kindling, if nothing else
I am well aware of hyperinflation. My MIL lived thru it.

So?
Quote:

The Federal Reserve is incapable of accomplishing its stated objectives.

It is a cartel operating against the public interest.

It's the supreme instrument of usury.

It generates our most unfair tax.

It encourages war.

It destabilizes the economy.

I note, once again for the record, that wars, depressions, unfair taxes, and usury all existed well before the Federal Reserve... or indeed banks... came into existance. Ridding ourselves of the Federal Reserve will not eliminate those problems!

Instead of trying to convince of the "bad stuff" the Fed ISN'T responsible for, why don't we focus on the problems Fed IS responsible for???

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:54 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

families using worthless bank notes to burn furnaces because it was cheaper than buying firewood.
Yeah O2B, that's what I said
Quote:

Even paper money might have a higher value... as kindling, if nothing else
I am well aware of hyperinflation. My MIL lived thru it.

So?
Quote:

The Federal Reserve is incapable of accomplishing its stated objectives.

It is a cartel operating against the public interest.

It's the supreme instrument of usury.

It generates our most unfair tax.

It encourages war.

It destabilizes the economy.

I note, once again for the record, that wars, depressions, unfair taxes, and usury all existed well before the Federal Reserve... or indeed banks... came into existance. Ridding ourselves of the Federal Reserve will not eliminate those problems!

Instead of trying to convince of the "bad stuff" the Fed ISN'T responsible for, why don't we focus on the problems Fed IS responsible for???

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.




Gah !

Oh , problems the Federal Reserve IS Responsible for , like Usurping the Constitutional Mandate that only Congress can 'COIN' Money...

Little Things , like THAT ? Little Things , like being the CAUSE of CHRONIC INFLATION , by 'creating Money' out of thin air , but then re-loaning it , AS IF it were REAL ?

Little Things , like giving Congress an 'inexhaustible' Open Book of BLANK CHECKS , with which to create CHRONIC , UNPAYABLE , DEBT for this Country , and thereby submit Generations of a once-FREE PEOPLE to INDENTURED SERVITUDE IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND ?

You just LOVE the FEDERAL RESERVE , don't you ? ...which isn't even FEDERAL , which isn't even a RESERVE ; and while CENTRAL BANKS all over the World are FAILING , you just want to excuse them all , and ignore the Facts of History , Facts of Economics , all the while insisting that you're Right...

Go ahead , straighten up the deck chairs ; Ask the Band to Play some Happy Tunes ; never mind about assisting the Women and the Children to the Lifeboats , Siggy wants to indulge his Fantasy that Everything is Okay , no one is really Responsible , all this has happened before...

...While RMS 'Titanic' , unsinkable though it may be , sinks inexorably toward the bottom of the icy North Atlantic...

So , poor folk using manhole covers as currency , as True Substance , still makes no impression upon You...

That redefines the Meaning of THICK , dunnit ?

At one time I had tens of millions of German Deutsch Marks , and I knew some fellows who'd survived the Nazi internments...

...One of whom is still alive...But , none of that allows me to be so dismissive of 'The Grand Sweep Of History' , in such a way as you're able to delude yourself into doing...

What DOES your Mother-In-Law have to do with this ? Did she tell you that 'everything will be all right' ?

Ignorance is still BLI$$ , for your ilk...

In all that you uncovered in your digging , you didn't take note of that term , 'seignorage' , and you didn't also apprehend that it enables 'nobles' , and 'representatives' of Governments , to foment and FINANCE wars , for Fun and Profit...

That makes you as guilty as the Evildoers...You are condemned to do Nothing about EVIL , because you elect not to recognize it...You are one of THEM...

" Forget what you think you know...Forget what your mother told you when she tucked you in at night...Forget the LIES of our cabalistic , Allied Governments..."

Okay , so if you're correct , nobody should be concerned that a number of men met IN SECRET some years ago , and that while those same men controlled between 1/6th to 1/4th of THE WORLD'S WEALTH at that time , and Established both the 'Federal Reserve' and the 'Income Tax' for their own , personal benefit , that no Folk should be concerned about it ? Despite the Fact that none of Us got to Vote on that ?

Okay , well , I haven't noticed anyone mistaking you for smart...

Just 'cause you've still not deduced it , 'hyperinflation' is caused by having a paper currency that's not backed by True Substance , rather than 'the full faith and Credit' of its issuing Government...That's been covered , time and again , throughout History...

Noticed that you can't attack that...Just as you can't attack the concept of 'intrinsic value'...

You're on 'The Road To Serfdom'...You can look it up , Later...

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Fiftieth-Anniversary/dp/0226320618






http://www.scribd.com/doc/210030/Goldberg-The-Complete-Book-of-Greed-T
he-Strange-and-Amazing-History-of-Human-Excess-1994








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Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:15 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Here's an excerpt from a free , and condensed , version of Hayek's book :

..." The conflict with which we have to deal is a fundamental one between two irreconcilable types of social organization, which have often been described as the commercial and the military. In either both choice and risk rest with the individual or he is relieved of both. In the army, work and worker alike are allotted by authority, and this is the only system in which the individual can be conceded full economic security. This security is, however, inseparable from the restrictions on liberty and the hierarchical order of military life - it is the security of the barracks.

In a society used to freedom it is unlikely that many people would be ready deliberately to purchase security at this price. But the policies which are followed now are nevertheless rapidly creating conditions in which the striving for security tends to become stronger than the love of freedom.

If we are not to destroy individual freedom, competition must be left to function unobstructed. Let a uniform minimum be secured to everybody by all means; but let us admit at the same time that all claims for a privileged security of particular classes must lapse, that all excuses disappear for allowing particular groups to exclude newcomers from sharing their relative prosperity in order to maintain a special standard of their own.

There can be no question that adequate security against severe privation will have to be one of our main goals of policy. But nothing is more fatal than the present fashion of intellectual leaders of extolling security at the expense of freedom. It is essential that we should relearn frankly to face the fact that freedom can be had only at a price and that as individuals we must be prepared to make severe material sacrifices to preserve it.

We must regain the conviction on which liberty in the Anglo-Saxon countries has been based and which Benjamin Franklin expressed in a phrase applicable to us as individuals no less than as nations: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Toward a Better World

TO BUILD a better world, we must have the courage to make a new start. We must clear away the obstacles with which human folly has recently encumbered our path and release the creative energy of individuals; We must create conditions favorable to progress rather than "planning progress. " It is not those who cry for more "planning" who show the necessary courage, nor those who preach a "New Order," which is no more than a continuation of the tendencies of the past 40 years; and who can think of nothing better than to imitate Hitler. It is, indeed, those who cry loudest for a planned economy who are most completely under the sway of the ideas which have created this war and most of the evils from which we suffer.

The guiding principle in any attempt to create a world of free men must be this: A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. "

< http://jim.com/hayek.htm>




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Friday, August 1, 2008 5:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


If you would just read a little history, and look at the reign of the Louis XVI you'll see that despite the fact that the government had a monopoly on currency AND it created its coins out of gold there was STILL massive unemployment, poverty, injustice, debt, inequality and... ultimately.... THHHHWHACK!!!

I'm a little too busy to tackle your post point by point. I don't deny there are problems. Heck, ask anyone around here, I'm the Eeyore of capitalism and even more pessimistic about the dollar. I just don't see the Fed being the sole problem, or even the most important one.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, August 1, 2008 5:48 AM

SERGEANTX


.... and how could you say otherwise?, given that "planning progress" is at the heart of your political zeitgeist.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 1, 2008 5:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
zeitgeist.


Bless you.

Tissueisall

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Friday, August 1, 2008 6:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

.... and how could you say otherwise?, given that "planning progress" is at the heart of your political zeitgeist.
By this do you mean my belief is that if "the Fed" didn't exist, something like it (a centralized agency) would have to take its place?

We see how well that worked for good 'ole Louis, right?


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, August 1, 2008 6:53 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

.... and how could you say otherwise?, given that "planning progress" is at the heart of your political zeitgeist.
By this do you mean my belief is that if "the Fed" didn't exist, something like it (a centralized agency) would have to take its place?

We see how well that worked for good 'ole Louis, right?



By "this" I mean that when you say "we should", what you really mean is that the majority should decide what the rest of us must do.

That quote about those who would "Plan Progress", rather than merely let it happen, just struck me as particularly insightful description of the differences in mindset. You seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) on the side of things that says we can't have real progress without conformity, and that what "we should" do, is best decided centrally and universally.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 1, 2008 7:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue. True, you're not going to walk out of a WalMart with groceries for the week without notes, but their worth is based only on people's perception of what their value is."

My point exactly - but it's also true of "gold, frankincense and myrrh" (whatever happened to frankincense and myrrh ? they're so out of the picture they're not even quaint), silver, copper, platinum (which used to be called 'bastard silver' b/c of its ultra-high high melting point that made it impossible to refine and form, and which was so worthless it was used as ballast), titanium, diamonds (whose value comes not from actual scarcity b/c diamonds are mined by the front-loader-full, but from tight control of the supply), rubies, emeralds ... wampum, Roman coins, spices from the Far East, salt (yes, salt, it's where the word 'salary' comes from), tulip bulbs ... or pretty much anything else that's been denominated as 'valuable' at one time or another.

In terms of value, it's ALL perception and circumstance. Gold is no exception.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 1, 2008 7:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SargeX, my view in brief... Once human societies get past the size where people can deal directly with each other... say, about 100 people... then certain things happen that are beyond individual action: the division of labor and specializaton, development of complex language and writing, trade and migration, etc.

One of those trends is the concentration of power.

The anarchist solution (HK, Frem) is that if people are taught to exercise their individual authority then people will be more or less equal and societies will not become distorted by huge differences in power. In my view, the concentration of power is beyond individual action to reverse, and mechanisms need to be in place which aggressively and positively place power in the hands of individuals.

Democracy is one such system which deliberately places political authority into individual's hands. The internet is a system that allows free communication, and thus provides anyone with an avenue towards the power of pursuasion. Certain religions (like UU) encourage individual ethical responsibility. Economic democracy is a system that requires people to take a proactive stance towards production. That, combined with teaching and healing individuals, might create a stable society which does not develop into an unstable hierarcy.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, August 1, 2008 8:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

mechanisms need to be in place which aggressively and positively place power in the hands of individuals.

One of those mechanisms is the right and ability to possess weapons capable of levelling the playing field.

Sure, it's far from being the only one, but still, that IS one of them, and should remain so.

A 110lb little old lady with a Bersa Thunder is more than a match for a 280lb crackhound with a crowbar, but take away that Bersa, and she's just one more victim.

Not sayin they're a whole solution, but it's certainly a part of one.

"The Right to Buy Weapons is The Right to be Free."
A.E. Van Vogt - The Weapon Shops of Isher.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 1, 2008 8:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

In my view, the concentration of power is beyond individual action to reverse

Amusing side note barely relevant to the topic...

The City Council has really overstepped themselves in a grandiose and overblown fashion recently, and managed to piss off just about the ENTIRE CITY at them this time.

Which is, without an ounce of doubt, going to lead to a recall effort in the near future, and one of the names put forth as a replacement for these creeps.....

Your friendly neighborhood Anarchist, and why ?

Because the locals have individually decided that no matter who else they put on that council, they can absolutely DEPEND on one stubborn obstructionist jackass to completely sandbag and roadblock anything that does not directly benefit the townies - not to mention the very IDEA of me actually being ON the council (after the Walter fiasco) scares the everliving shit out of them, and the locals firmly believe that politicians of any stripe SHOULD live in fear of their constituents.

The really bizarre part of it, is that nowhere within the regs does it require my consent to put me on the ballot or elect me, and they already got enough signatories *and* votes, to do it.

So in the next couple months I guess we get to put your theory to the test, at least on a small scale - I still haven't decided, should this come to pass (and at this point, there's little doubt) whether to show up and sandbag em, or stay home and deny them a Quorum...

I think it can be done, if that concentration of power pisses off ENOUGH individual folk, they'll work actively to break it, all just a matter of how much crap folk are willing to take.

So, I guess we will see.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 1, 2008 9:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Democracy is one such system which deliberately places political authority into individual's hands.



How are you seeing that exactly? Unrestricted democracy is the antithesis of individual sovereignty. Democracy establishes the premise that the will of the majority supersedes that of the individual. That's why, in a deliberate attempt to protect individual rights, democracy is only adopted in the US in a limited way - primarily as a tool for choosing representatives.

I've found many of your positions grounded in the premise of unlimited democracy, ie if the majority wills it, it should be so. It's a continuum, and not as black and white as we all like to pretend, so I'm sure you're willing to set some limits on democratic authority. On the other end of things, I believe democracy should be a tool of last resort - only to be applied to situations where universal conformity is the only viable solution.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 1, 2008 9:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

One of those mechanisms is the right and ability to possess weapons capable of levelling the playing field. Sure, it's far from being the only one, but still, that IS one of them, and should remain so. A 110lb little old lady with a Bersa Thunder is more than a match for a 280lb crackhound with a crowbar, but take away that Bersa, and she's just one more victim.

Not sayin they're a whole solution, but it's certainly a part of one.

Which gets back to the implementation of advanced technology (face recognition, at-a-distance disablement, broad-based electronic snooping, WMD, even pre-emptive brain scanning).

I agree with you Frem. By themselves guns will not work. We need a complete armamentarium to counter these preversions of power, and that means persuading our fellow citizens, swinging elections the right way (power of the government purse), and more.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, August 1, 2008 9:05 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"A 110lb little old lady with a Bersa Thunder is more than a match for a 280lb crackhound with a crowbar, but take away that Bersa, and she's just one more victim."

But with that gun is she a match for the power of government to spy on anyone and everyone, any place and time, for any reason or no reason at all? Is she a match for the big oil multinational consortium ?

Gotta' keep saying it - the whole idea of separate individuals with handguns as a bastion of freedom is ------------- stupid.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 1, 2008 10:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA


And holding up a piece of paper expecting it to stop your pissed off ex from knifing/shooting you is smart ?
http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/paper.aspx

A weapon is a TOOL, one tool in the tool box, useful in it's proper application but not a damn cure-all, why the fuck do you keep trying to strawman that position on me when I have shot it down time after time ?

A pistol or rifle is of no effective use in munging up someones spying on you, unless maybe if ya held it up in front of your face.

It's of REALLY effective use in convincing some punk with a knife to go the hell AWAY, however.

Thing is, each tool to it's purpose - and yes, personal weapons DO have a deterrent effect on abuses because you cannot FORCE an armed person to do your bidding, you have to either reason with them, or kill them, and reason becomes more cost effective.

As for spying, that's a combination of a couple factors, but the most useful tool we have as individuals is the ability to simply NOT cooperate with the system, refuse to feed it, don't rat on your neighbors, treat unreasonable questions with intense suspicion and derision.

Throughout history, surveillence societies have ONLY worked with the full cooperation of a substantial percentage of the populace playing along and ratting each other out for a pat on the head, personal advantage, what have you.

Without that... lacking enough people to cooperate, they wind up with watchers watching watchers watch, and eventually nobody's doin anything ELSE - and it all falls apart.

But that would presume that most americans had the moral courage to not prostrate themselves and lick the jackboots like good little bitches, and you'd have to convince me of that.

And it would take a DAMN lot of convincing, given my opinion of em.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 1, 2008 10:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"And holding up a piece of paper expecting it to stop your pissed off ex from knifing/shooting you is smart ?"

Silly guy - did I ever say it was ? My point was you could have picked a better example for how handguns preserve our 'liberties' in the face of over-weaning governments with lots of technologies, and in the face of powerful international moneyed interests who know how to cooperate with each other for mutual gain.

And BTW there are MANY tools in the drawer - not just for personal protection, but to attain and maintain freedom.

When it comes to freedom, the first and most important is recognizing the importance of organization. Because otherwise, you're just one nut-case.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 1, 2008 1:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

When it comes to freedom, the first and most important is recognizing the importance of organization.

Well yeah, given that I run what amounts to a private intel cell, based on what could best be called a swarm-theory meritocracy, I'm well aware of that - it's just that I consider the modern standard heirarcy(sp?) models wide open to corruption, infiltration and intertia....

Not to mention their piss poor personnel and com security.

Using traditional top-down infrastructure in our current era is just *begging* for trouble, do we really have to discuss the why ?

There's more than one way to do it, yanno.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 1, 2008 4:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quick - who is more free - a Canadian or a USer ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 1, 2008 8:09 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Rue, I don't know. I'm not a Canadian and have very little knowledge of their ways.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, August 1, 2008 9:00 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


This is creepy!

Not too long ago I saw this documentary that predicted this very scenario. Ooooh, it gives me the chills.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Saturday, August 2, 2008 8:52 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
This is creepy!

Not too long ago I saw this documentary that predicted this very scenario. Ooooh, it gives me the chills.




Please , Do tell !

I could stand to hear a little more...

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 5:08 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue...

Take, for instance, how because of the price of copper has gone up so high while the value of the dollar has gone down, because the Fed doesn't have the balls to raise interest rates, that now it is becoming lucrative to melt down pennies and cash them in. It's not making a ton right now, but if we see both of those trends continue on, we'll likely eliminate the penny altogether as we run out of lighter and cheaper metals to keep mixing with that copper.

It's really why Capitalism gets a bad name in my book. There really isn't a Free Market or even True Capitalism when you have notes that aren't backed up by anything but a promise and the big boys on top can raise or lower interest rates to effect us common folk significantly in our decisions.




If folk would ever bother to re-check the Coinage Act (1792) , they'd know that the poorest folk were well protected , in the original instance...Pennies were Worth MORE than their 'face value' , so that in a worst case situation , if anyone had as much as a few cents on hand , they'd still have something of True Substance , of significant worth and VALUE , that could be traded for other commodities of worth...

Now , since 1964 , even 'Silver' coins have had their worth extracted , and they're the non-Lawful 'cupro-nickel sandwich' , in the best case...

The pennies , as it turns out , are an even more egregious abuse...They used to be solid copper , but for more than 20 years are substantially , 'copper-washed zinc' , which is banker/lawyer/politician Federal Reserve Suckerese for 'there goes your True Substance and your Lawful Money yet again , chumps !'...

A fortunate few are able to find old pennies and melt them for exchange for the 'Bank Notes of the realm'...

The Liars and Deniers persist , but they are 'Heroes' at the expense of everyone else...

Witness the Worldwide Demand for frickin' manhole covers and sewer grates as 'currency'...

That's some big dang 'Coin' for common folk to have to tote around , but hey , the desperate do what has to done...

< http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTA_e
nUS286&q=stealing+manhole+covers
>

< http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=stealing+manhole+covers>

Oh yeah , the 'upscale' criminals are stealing the catalytic converters off of parked cars...A hacksaw will get you into that 'business'...



It's sad that natural born American's don't know any of that. I admit that though what you say makes perfect sense, I never learned about it in school. I'm even willing to bet that it is in the textbooks somwhere between K-12, but to the best of my recollection we never covered more than 1/8 of any history book my parents paid 50 to 100 bucks for growing up.

I never knew if you were natural born or not, but I know that (at least I think I do and don't get pissed if I'm wrong) that you're of Asian descent. I know that doesn't mean that you aren't a natural born citizen or anything, but either way I appreciate it more coming from you and feel just that much more ashamed that I really know nothing about how this wonderful country had been erected and what is happening to it now by both those in power and those who stand aside and allow it to happen.

Thanks for enlightening me on that. I have no doubt that something of that significance was truly set up that way in the beginning before Government no longer existed to serve the people.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 3:25 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

It's sad that natural born American's don't know any of that. I admit that though what you say makes perfect sense, I never learned about it in school. I'm even willing to bet that it is in the textbooks somwhere between K-12, but to the best of my recollection we never covered more than 1/8 of any history book my parents paid 50 to 100 bucks for growing up.

I never knew if you were natural born or not, but I know that (at least I think I do and don't get pissed if I'm wrong) that you're of Asian descent. I know that doesn't mean that you aren't a natural born citizen or anything, but either way I appreciate it more coming from you and feel just that much more ashamed that I really know nothing about how this wonderful country had been erected and what is happening to it now by both those in power and those who stand aside and allow it to happen.

Thanks for enlightening me on that. I have no doubt that something of that significance was truly set up that way in the beginning before Government no longer existed to serve the people.




Thanks for sayin'...

It IS Sad , and yes it is certainly a shame , a damned , Dirty shame , that we have 'errand boys' hereabouts who'll voluntarily run to do the bidding of the Banksters and the CONgressmen who facilitate the robbing of the Wealth and Productivity of this Country...

It's a tale of Woe...One that has been repeated Innumerable Times throughout History...We're the Folk who are
CON-Dimmed to repeat the same sad History , unless more Folk can be Awakened to the Truth and Reality that are Intrinsic to our present circumstances...

There is much more Truth to be told , but those who have the most fealty to the System , and the most Cherished Illusions , stand in the way of others Having the Truth...

It's a particular oddity to me , that someone who identifies himself as a 'chemist' , has such a battle obtaining the Fact that certain items not only have an 'intrinsic' value , but that some of those same items have held their intrinsic value over millennia...

There's much more to 'History' than what is told in the books given to children...

Half of writing History is hiding the Truth...

Those who'd spin History for our Detriment and their own simultaneous benefit , are the enemies of Liberty , Freedom ,
and Prosperity for the People...

Doesn't matter if it's only Ego that drives 'em to do it , they're still as guilty as the masterminds who seek to facilitate our Demise...

Like I said , 6ix , thanks for noticing , 'cause that makes the whole battle worthwhile...

The only favor you can do ; is to share the facts that you uncover , with enough other Folk , to maybe turn the tide a bit , before the lights are blown out...

Here's a little current information about 'intrinsic' value of U.S. minted coins...Observant folk will note that the more 'current' issues have little to no melt value , but the more 'antique' True Substance coins of the Lawfully-prescribed Copper and Silver Metals , actually are worth more than their 'face' value , by a SigNyfuc*ant Margin :

< http://www.coinflation.com/>

There's also an online calculator for showing what a buck was worth , say 100 years ago , in 1908 , when there WERE Metals with Intrinsic Value as part of the Money in circulation , versus Today...

So , as an example , you could buy with 4 Cents , what would cost you an entire $1 denomination Federal Reserve Note now...

< http://www.westegg.com/inflation/>

Hey , it ain't without reason that a depiction of a 'pyramid scheme' , and the obscure motto ,
'Novus Ordo Seclorum' appear on the back of that $1 Note...Roughly translated , that's 'New Order of the Ages'...


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Sunday, August 3, 2008 7:33 PM

IREMIST


Not to interrupt y'alls in depth and migraine inducing conversation, BUT...


There IS nothing wrong with the US Dollar

There is NOTHING wrong with the US dollar!

There is nothing WRONG with the US dollar!


Iremist crawls into a corner and has a psychotic breakdown.....

WE JUST PUT IN A BID ON OUR FIRST HOUSE!!!AFTER WAITING 10 YEARS!!!! DON'T JINX THE ECONOMY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, after scrolling through this thread, I just may invest in LEAD, preferably in 180 grain increments...............




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Sunday, August 3, 2008 7:59 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Iremist:
Not to interrupt y'alls in depth and migraine inducing conversation, BUT...


There IS nothing wrong with the US Dollar

There is NOTHING wrong with the US dollar!

There is nothing WRONG with the US dollar!


However, after scrolling through this thread, I just may invest in LEAD, preferably in 180 grain increments...............




Sorry , Misty...

If some do go to the break point , at least we have one another...

Yes , indeedy , if you do have a suitable shooting iron , the lead in those increments that you mentioned is bound to appreciate...

Wishing you and yours all possible affection and success on the road ahead...I'll be thinkin' of y'all , please DO stay in touch as you're able...

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Hell, they're currently trying to outlaw melting down old coins and selling the metal for more than the coins themselves were worth.

I hear theres a bit of that going on with US Nickles right know - and there's been some going on with Dimes for quite a while.

Of course, nobody much wants used green paper...

My primary assets are the ability to deliver repair services for small engines, appliances, and whatnot without the requirement of a supply chain or parts support, and those are of a value persistant as long as folk have stuff they want to work.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:08 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
If you would just read a little history, and look at the reign of the Louis XVI you'll see that despite the fact that the government had a monopoly on currency AND it created its coins out of gold there was STILL massive unemployment, poverty, injustice, debt, inequality and... ultimately.... THHHHWHACK!!!

I'm a little too busy to tackle your post point by point. I don't deny there are problems. Heck, ask anyone around here, I'm the Eeyore of capitalism and even more pessimistic about the dollar. I just don't see the Fed being the sole problem, or even the most important one.




The 'Eeyore of Capitalism' ?

Okay , well , actually that IS understandable , being that you've never actually seen True Capitalism in your Lifetime...

Same way that you've never actually known 'The Gold Standard' in your lifetime...

When my Grandfather was a little boy , and when he was a young person , he had , and he knew people who had
Gold and Silver Coin in their pockets...

And , now , we DON'T...

About the Federal Reserve , you don't know What It Is , so you sure can't know WHAT IT DOES...

That , also , is understandable...

Since you wanted to invoke Keynes , I'll indulge that , temporarily...

Here's what he had to say about inflation :



" By a continuous process of Inflation , government can confiscate secretly and unobserved an important part of the wealth of their citizens .

By this method , they not only confiscate , they confiscate arbitrarily , and while the confiscation impoverishes MANY ,
it enriches SOME .

Lenin was certainly right , ' There is no surer way of overturning a society , than to debauch the currency .'

The process engages ALL the hidden forces of Economic Law on the side of
DESTRUCTION
, and does so in such a manner that only ONE MAN IN A MILLION is able to diagnose it..."

--The Economic Consequences Of Peace , John Maynard Keynes , 1920



Kind of makes it easy to be an 'Eeyore' , don't it ?

Still , it's worse than you know...


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Saturday, August 9, 2008 9:04 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
If you would just read a little history, and look at the reign of the Louis XVI you'll see that despite the fact that the government had a monopoly on currency AND it created its coins out of gold there was STILL massive unemployment, poverty, injustice, debt, inequality and... ultimately.... THHHHWHACK!!!

---------------------------------



Okay , admittedly , I've not taken a really-recent look at the Froggy Revolution in quite some time now , but there WERE some students of History for whom it was a much more Contemporary and relevant matter , and these were the kinds of things that they had to say :



" All the perplexities , confusion , and distress in America arise not from defects in our constitution , not from want of honor or virtue , so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin , credit and circulation ." --John Adams

" History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse , intrigue , deceit and violent means possible
to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance ." --James Madison

" I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous
than standing armies and that the issuing power of money
should be taken from the banks and restored to governments
to whom it properly belongs ." --Thomas Jefferson


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Saturday, August 9, 2008 11:51 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


I'm refering to a documentary, a sort of conspiracy theory, called Zeitgeist (it was on YouTube) and in one particular part it spoke of the careful manipulation of currency in the US by the Fed (which is actually a private consortium and not a government entity).

It detailed how this group was looking to control the world market and actually get rid of paper money and control things by credit with the advent of the imbedded microchip. The microchip would be placed into everyone wrist and you would be tracked by this "chip". Some of the things it talks about have already taken place and now the latest debacle of the powerful dollar has me thinking it's predictions are not far off.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:51 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
I'm refering to a documentary, a sort of conspiracy theory, called Zeitgeist (it was on YouTube) and in one particular part it spoke of the careful manipulation of currency in the US by the Fed (which is actually a private consortium and not a government entity).

It detailed how this group was looking to control the world market and actually get rid of paper money and control things by credit with the advent of the imbedded microchip. The microchip would be placed into everyone wrist and you would be tracked by this "chip". Some of the things it talks about have already taken place and now the latest debacle of the powerful dollar has me thinking it's predictions are not far off.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!



Well , it looks like we ARE bad guys...

Like Frem noted , this is dangerous knowledge to have , and to propagate...

I looked up the Zeitgeist documentary that you mentioned , and must note that it is awesome !

It's a concise explanation of the intrigues of the Banksters , and the subsequent impacts on the somnambulant public...Here's a Link to Part 1 , for them as may need it told :



" Would you be killed in your sleep , like an ailing pet ? "

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Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:50 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


How to resist the shocking future :


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Monday, August 11, 2008 2:23 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Very interesting, I'm going to look up the website later tonight.

Thanks for the info.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Monday, August 11, 2008 3:48 PM

KANEMAN


Doesn't matter if it implodes. The FED can just keep on printing the stuff like it grows on trees(oops it does).....I have a wheel-barrel

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:28 PM

OUT2THEBLACK




" The Americans think they are immune to the immutable laws of economic nature. They dispatched most of their industry to the Pacific Rim , then Mexico , finally a more complex mix of Asia with China the new center. With that exodus went legitimate income. In its place was the great majority of the US Economy resting atop a housing and mortgage bubble. The heretical US economists, led by the closest thing to Mr Magoo on the planet in the former US Federal Reserve Chairman, endorsed the plan as not only sound, but advanced in risk offset price modeling. Imagine Mr Magoo a knight! Now the entire model is in the process of dissolving, taking down the entire US banking system, including most lending institutions, into the sewer of acidic pits, the wasteland of dilution, or the cemetery for bankruptcy.

Long is the path to the printing press, the ultimate supposed savior of the nation. Current US Fed Chairman Bernanke once said, “But the US government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost.” His words are taken out of context, unfair to him. Sue me! The hidden cost is beyond description as huge, like ruin of a national financial foundation. It is a device that kills the host, hardly any solution. When the financial system is totally broken, when allies are totally betrayed, when investors are totally ransacked, when isolation is the spoils of current policy riddled with curried favor, the printing press remains to save the day.

What heresy! Usage of the printing press in large scale volume will earn the certain reward of astronomical gold and silver prices. The decisions to be made will determine whether a return to precious metal supremacy is accompanied either first by very high interest rates and uncontrollable credit derivative meltdowns, or second by suppressed controlled interest rates and total discouragement of savings from artificially low interest rates. Systemic meltdown awaits the first path, while continued pursuit of bubbles the second path. Either way, gold wins! The spoils will be devastation for the first path, but rationing for the second path. Both paths require the most dreaded device to be deployed at the last turn, the printing press. Other alternatives will have been exhausted.

A tragedy is in progress. For three years, my premises have centered on foreign-held debt leading to lost sovereignty, on the inevitable wreckage of the US banking system (first with insolvency, later with bankruptcy, finally consolidation and nationalization, and a long drawn out housing bear market made worse by the extraordinary extension at its peak. That pathogenesis is on course, in progress still, despite supposed rescues, most being horribly designed and full of the same broken devices that Voltaire warned about.

Few people think much about the Founding Fathers of the United States these days. They would be appalled, even say, I TOLD YOU SO. Thomas Jefferson warned specifically about handing over the power and authority over money to private banks, stating in clear terms that if granted, then in time the nation will lose their homes to bankers. We are there. The brilliant second president crafted the Constitution, an ignored document shredded by those who prefer war, fear, and private profit to liberty, free markets, and honest money, while they spout endlessly about freedom, national pride, and foreign threats. The menace is internal.

IMPERFECTIONS & DECEPTIONS

The Mortgage Relief Bill just signed into law should be regarded as a first pass at governmental rescue actions, the first of many. The first bill always represents the most difficult bill to pass. The succeeding bills will be easier, since the interference has been removed. The nationalization movement in mortgage finance has begun. The benefits will extend ranks to homeowners finally, and not exclusively to the banker elite as seen to the present date. One should note that the elite, primarily shareholders and bondholders, stand in first position of priority in this first bill designed toward rescue and relief. In return for quasi-formal guarantees from the formerly quasi-government agencies, Fannie & Freddie (F&F) will submit to strong reins from a newly created regulator. The Federal Housing Administration will insure up to $300 billion in such mortgage loans, as 400 thousand upside-down homeowners will be lined up for aid, provided loan originators eat a large helping of red ink. Attached to the legislative bill, more like snuck in, was a convenient increase of $800 billion to the US Govt federal debt limit, now at $10.6 trillion.

The bailouts directed to F&F will require at least $1.5 trillion in my estimation, once credit derivative losses are revealed down the road. Regard the Mortgage Relief Bill as a sentinel signal that the US Dollar will indeed fall another 20% eventually, thus propelling the gold price to unexpected heights. A total systemic bank breakdown is close at hand, when the next larger and broader wave of mortgage defaults occurs. They have nowhere near enough capital to offset upcoming losses. Each new package of official government relief measures will be easier to implement, since the crisis has been recognized. Lawrence Lindsey hates the Mortgage Relief Bill, and went into great detail as to why. He regards it is another bailout for the Fannie & Freddie elite, which happens to be what the US Fed lending facilities have been for Wall Street firms so far. The F&F structure remains intact, when clearly faulty if not a shocking failure. It is still not yet nationalized, but heading in that direction. The bill preserves the institution without ensuring its functions. It prevents losses to investors, while saddling the taxpayer with an unlimited liability.

If truth be known, Fannie Mae must be continued in present form, unless its giant hidden credit derivatives are revealed, unless its unspeakable fraud is revealed totaling over $1 trillion in fully accounted tidy form, neatly covered up by the last three administrations. Imagine your own fully funded slush fund for theft with impunity. Keep it going! Call it a boon to homeowners, paving the way to the American Dream. Fannie & Freddie are tour guides, cheer leaders, trail blazer guides on the path to the printing press. Nothing will betray the system more than the F&F main event how, even betray foreigners. A risk actually exists that foreign Sovereign Wealth Funds might eventually own the F&F, lock stock and barrel. So Jefferson 's warning might be even worse, than foreign bankers will own the homes lost by the American people. F&F together own tens of thousands of foreclosed homes. Soon they will see the light, and begin to rent them for income.

The biggest intangible loss in recent months has been in bank executive credibility. This goes parallel to the lost credibility of the central bank at the US Federal Reserve. Nearly every forecast or economic viewpoint or banking perception proved to be totally off the mark. Nearly every promise made by John Thain to investors since he took the helm at Merrill Lynch has been broken. Nearly all his viewpoints have been incorrect. Yet he keeps on talking. Then there was CEO Richard Fuld of Lehman Brothers, whose words proved totally off the mark. Then there was CEO Kerry Killinger of Washington Mutual, whose words proved totally off the mark. Then there was CEO Ken Thompson of Wachovia, whose words proved totally off the mark. Then there was AIG head Martin Sullivan, whose words proved totally off the mark. At least bankers from the top down through the ranks are consistent. To be otherwise would cause confusion.

MORE BIGGER BANK LOSSES DEAD AHEAD

Opinions are arriving surprisingly fast onto the analytic scene, that bank losses have not peaked. In fact, they will be much larger and broader in the next year. Banks have suffered $480 billion so far in stated losses, a figure that moves like a clock racking up more red ink each hour. Meredith Whitney of Oppenheimer believes Wall Street firms have yet to cut operating costs significantly, and have yet to meaningfully write down portfolio assets in stated losses. These once powerful firms forecast only a 20% to 25% fall in housing prices from peak to trough, a delusional viewpoint to use as an accounting foundation, let alone corporate planning. Check inventory levels and foreclosure figures.

Their only claim to power nowadays is their control of the US Govt, US Fed , US Dept of Treasury, debt rating agencies, regulators, and press networks. Heck! That is power indeed! To be a banker in the Untied States nowadays requires a certificate in fraud or stupidity, perhaps both, a firm grasp of heresy, and surely a degree from the School of Charlatan . Once again, Wall Street executives have no business except to manage their demise from choking on their own feces and toxic waste. They are victims of their own fraud and greed. Their stock and bond issuance has virtually vanished. Their own corporate stock values are supported by criminal restrictions to shorting rules, along with intimidation. Some opportunities await the intrepid investor, as the bank sector has shot its wad in August.

After raising cash from capital sale to replenish core assets and to revive balance sheets, Wall Street firms and big US banks will be unable to do so during the next big round, due this autumn, next winter, and spring. THAT IS WHEN ONE SHOULD EXPECT NATIONALIZATION OF THE US BANKS, FROM USGOVT BAILOUTS AND TOTAL ASSUMPTION OF DEBT OBLIGATIONS. This event will coincide with the nationalization of the US mortgage finance industry (see Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac) and the US car industry (see GM, Ford, Chrysler). As for the airlines, look instead for Emirate Airlines and Qatar Airlines to take plenty of American routes, at top dollar prices, since they have deep pockets and can obtain jet fuel on the cheap. The trio of banks, mortgage finance, and car industries will compose the core of the Nationalized US Economy foundation. Our turkey leaders will then boast of stability restored, when actually bankruptcy will be shared, institutionalized, and its bitter fruit made available for all to sup at the dining room table. One should beware that nationalization is a highway, a really wide path to the printing press, wide enough for all to walk, very slowly, and with limited opportunity.

Standard methods have been used that are totally broken for valuing US banks generally. The price/earnings ratios do not work, price/book values do not work, and debt/asset ratios do not work. All fail for the simple reason that no profits exist, book value is negative, and bank insolvency puts the third ratio into a truly dark place where continued operation is almost impossible. A bank does not lend money when it is broke! Instead, it fakes its solvency and fights to con investors into donating money into a black hole in exchange for equity without control. Their congame has blossomed.

Last midsummer in 2007, in the Hat Trick Letter reports, a warning was given that prime adjustable rate mortgages (ARM) would begin to default in one year. That is now, and the fabled Exploding ARMs, called officially Option ARMs, have indeed begun to default. The schedule of prime mortgage price began the reset process late last year, but have moved into high ground only this year. A few aspects are alarming, most importantly their size, at five times greater in volume than subprime's and Alt-A home loans. Price resets involve monthly costs rising at least 50% per month. In cases where triggers are hit for negative amortized loan balances having grown to 10% or 15% above the original balance, past interest and penalties are stacked atop new principal contributions to make for often a double or triple in monthly payment requirements! Default usually results, and for some, that prospect has led to some to abandon the homes, or even to halt making payments altogether.

In all, almost a half a trillion$ of ARMs will reset this year, vastly eclipsing the subprimes. Far too many are defaulting even before any adjustments, enough to scare the crapp out of bankers! Thoughts of banking system recovery and stabilization periods are pipedreams. The worst has yet to come, dead ahead. The bank losses will be at least triple the nearly $500 billion that has been suffered to date.

Few analysts have factored in prime loan losses, let alone commercial loan losses, both next, both assured given the sickening rise in defaults. Focus must be given to how the 30-year fixed mortgage rates are now higher than when the US Fed began to cut the funds rate in September 2007. Take this as a signal of rejection to monetary policy and failure by the central bank to reverse the risk environment. Meanwhile, evidence mounts on loan distress. Comparisons can be easily made. The subprime loans are in the 16% neighborhood on default, setting the standard. The Alt-A percentage of loans in arrears and the prime loan delinquencies are high enough to cause alarm to bankers. Bank analysts have noticed, even Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan. Details of the banking system, reset schedule for prime adjustable mortgages, foreclosures, peak for bank losses, FDIC watch lists, FDIC vulnerability, California update, and more are in the August Hat Trick Letter due out this weekend, possibly Monday.

BETRAYALS GALORE

Eventually investors who stepped into the previous rescues felt betrayed by huge losses. They were suckered. See Blackstone. See Citigroup. See Merrill Lynch. Asians and Arabs have been the principal benefactors so far. They have been burned. The first long round of bailouts for US banks was not sponsored by the US Fed, but rather by foreign Sovereign Wealth Funds (SWF). These face 40% to 50% losses. For this privilege they were granted no voting rights, no seats on the Board of Directors, still second class citizens, yet in the driver's seat for the corporate survival of desperate financial firms. On the next round of bailouts, foreign SWFunds will demand better terms. Heck! They might eventually demand a seat at the prestigious G-7 Meetings, where finance ministers for the world's largely bankrupt Western nations plus Japan conduct meetings. The last one was a total waste, discussing greenhouse emissions when the global banking system burned from the Western edges. The next rounds will surely grow more contentious. Eventually, foreigners will have had their fill.

The Untied States must finally relinquish some important ground, like granting bank licenses to foreign banks with Chinese and Arab names. When the US leaders tire of selling control to foreign entities, they will turn to their trusted self-destructive mechanism. At last resort, the printing press will be relied upon to restore cash to the depleted balance sheets. They think it will be money, but it is just paper, the most corrosive paper on the planet. It is far more corrosive than any industrial chemical. It kills entire industries, and millions of jobs. It even kills independent statehood. It opens the door to international carpetbaggers.

A systemic failure is in progress, in a painful ultra-slow excruciating process. People have finally begun to see the failure, often as something terribly wrong in vague terms. But they are still asleep as to causes and perpetrators. If they comprehended the depth of the problems, they would refuse to grant further control to perpetrators of the bank destruction. Deceptive banker reports still come, like the total charade by Wells Fargo. By extending their definition of loan default to 180 days or so, from the standard 90 days, they were able to write off far less in credit portfolio losses. Investors bit hard on the bait, and bid up their stock by over 20% on that day. What idiots! Wells Fargo has $84 billion in home equity loans in their portfolio. They are first to be killed off in home loan defaults, well before the senior first mortgages.

Bank insolvency is out in the open nowadays. The trend has become crystal clear, as successive quarters reveal incrementally larger bank portfolio losses. The worst lies ahead. A tip of the hat to Nouriel Roubini from New York University . He has the stones to tell Wall Street that the US banking system faces between $1 and $2 trillion in accumulative losses. During a recent interview, the anchors who interviewed him were in minor shock, and did not dish out their usual cocky disrespect. They might realize that Roubini is 90% correct for his forecasts placed publicly over the last two years. They might realize that Wall Street executives and US Fed members have been 90% wrong.

On the world stage, a tragedy has become apparent in recent weeks. THE ENTIRE ANGLOSPHERE BANK & ECONOMIC SYSTEMS ARE IMPLODING. The built economies atop housing bubble foundations, the common lethal transgression. The United States , the United Kingdom ( England ), Ireland , Australia , and New Zealand are suffering from critically wounded banking systems, led by housing markets. This was another longstanding forecast here. The latest nation to come to my attention for implosion is Northern Ireland , which runs on the pound sterling currency, being rooted as a British satellite. They have an even more damaged bank and economic system than Ireland (the central nation to the south), which is euro-based in currency. Geopolitical implications from the Anglo Sphere vicious decline are beyond description, as power shifts from West to East. The main problem is that military might is centered in the West, but wealth is centered in the East, while financial institutions are dominated by the West. Conflicts and compromise comes, even as sovereignty is yielded. "

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5787.html

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 3:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Doesn't matter if it implodes. The FED can just keep on printing the stuff like it grows on trees(oops it does).....I have a wheel-barrel



Is that anything like a wheelbarrow?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Jeebus Cripes, O2TB - that's some chilling shit right there!

About all I can say at this point is, "I *HOPE* it's wrong."

Even as I fear it's probably not only right, but understated.

Signs read "Rough Road Ahead"...




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:00 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


...About all I can say at this point is, "I *HOPE* it's wrong."

Even as I fear it's probably not only right, but understated.

Signs read "Rough Road Ahead"...

Mike




I get a lot of this sort of information , from a number of different sources , and it's really too much to keep up with...But , this is quite the fair summary of all the intel that I've been receiving from the various quarters...

Of course , we all should HOPE that it's all wrong...

...But , it's not .

Folk should oughta move quietly to protect their assets as best they can...

The *relative* rebound of the U.S. Federal Reserve Note against other currencies at the present time is only due to the fact that the foreign notes are doing even worse , comparatively speaking...

I hate to say it , but I've been following all the indicators and trends a long while now , and have to agree with
the above-linked analysis for the most part...

In Australia , folk are having their homes foreclosed for being as little as 1000 Au in arrears...

The credit crunch is global , and the contagion is accelerating as it spreads...

I do wish there was something very heartening to pass on , but at the moment , there's not much...

Rosy specs will have to suffice for folk who are not seeing things the same way...

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:09 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Like Mike said , a rough road ahead :

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20458.htm

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Friday, August 15, 2008 6:19 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Buser's memo to next U.S. Prez
http://ccwawebintern.livejournal.com/9908.html
Quote:

What Can US Policy Makers do to Prevent a Catastrophic Melt Down?

None of the following alternative policies will provide a painless solution to a serious economic problem. Nevertheless, as we are repeatedly reminded with natural disasters, such as hurricane Katrina, ignoring a problem only serves to magnify the ultimate damage. Hence I hope that you will at least consider the following alternatives.

Policy Alternative #1

The federal government must dramatically reduce the size of the federal deficit. Only then will it be possible to relieve pressures that have built up during the past decade. As tax payers, we all appreciate the reductions in federal income tax rates that were enacted early in this decade. However, when combined with two long and expensive wars, the result was a dramatic reversal of federal budget surpluses that had been established in the late 1990s. Federal budget deficits stimulate the demand for goods and services in general. When combined with a strong US dollar and increasingly liberal trade policies, the record setting US budget deficits of this decade have had an especially strong impact on US imports.

Unlike prior budget deficits, which were largely financed domestically, US budget deficits of the current decade have been largely financed by the rest of the world. Until recently, the external financing of US budget deficits effectively shielded US consumers from the financial costs of war. The traditional tradeoff of guns versus butter was seemingly replaced by a choice of more guns along with more butter. Unfortunately, as is the case with any public or private program that is funded by a rapidly increasing debt, the illusion of a free lunch is short lived. Eventually lenders seek repayment with interest. The US has entered the early stage of the repayment phase of its war-time borrowing program. If policy makers continue to ignore the inevitable, the economic consequences will be severe....
...



HOW TO CONCEAL MASSIVE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/wag_the_dog.php
Quote:

“[T]he banking problems in the United States continue to mount, while the federal government’s deficit continues to soar out of control. . . . So what happened to cause the dollar to rally over the past three weeks? In a word, intervention. Central banks have propped up the dollar, and here’s the proof.

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Friday, August 15, 2008 3:23 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:


HOW TO CONCEAL MASSIVE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/wag_the_dog.php
Quote:

“[T]he banking problems in the United States continue to mount, while the federal government’s deficit continues to soar out of control. . . . So what happened to cause the dollar to rally over the past three weeks? In a word, intervention. Central banks have propped up the dollar, and here’s the proof.



Thanks for this thread , Jayneztown , and for yet another great post in it !

The 'web-of-debt' website is very good , and I like that she has made some chapters available from her book...It's good reading , and more folk should look into it...

Again , thanks for everything , and particular thanks for including the great links...

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:14 AM

PARTICIPANT


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
This is creepy!

Not too long ago I saw this documentary that predicted this very scenario. Ooooh, it gives me the chills.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!



and the bad news just keeps coming

US High-Grade Bond Market Lower On Financial Co Woes, Weak Data
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200808191215DOWJON
ESDJONLINE000331_FORTUNE5.htm


Dollar slides on higher US inflation, oil gain
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/08/19/ap5338276.html

Freddie Mac draws demand for debt at higher yield
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7737143

Crude Oil Advances on Weaker Dollar, Gasoline Supply Forecast
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=a3J1Kh9WmPG8&refer
=australia


The US economy is in a funk
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JH19Dj08.html

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:08 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


All good folk oughta check this out...

It's a new documentary film that got significant notice at Sundance this year :

http://www.iousathemovie.com/about

" It's An Inconvenient Truth for the Economy . " --Reuters




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Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The next credit crunch
Quote:

Fortune Magazine -- We made it through the bursting of the Internet bubble and now the bursting of the real estate bubble. Next we may be approaching the end of the most worrisome bubble of all: the standard-of-living bubble.

That conclusion comes from the latest data on credit card debt. It's growing fast, but the problem is bigger than that - and to understand what it means, we have to take a few steps back.

For the past several years, the average inflation-adjusted total pay of American workers hasn't been increasing.

So much for the myth of the robust economy under Bush...
Quote:

... Even with stagnant real incomes, we can always live a little better every year through borrowing and pretending that our living standard is still rising, just as it was for decades. So the Great Bull Market made us feel rich, and we felt justified in saving less and borrowing - and spending - more.

After stocks collapsed, home prices took off, making us feel rich all over again. So we continued saving less and spending more, creating the illusion that our living standard was still rising. In 2005 our personal savings rate went negative, but even that didn't slow us down, because our homes were still appreciating - and rising home values meant that household net worths weren't declining. (Don't be fooled by that saving-rate spike in this year's second quarter; it was probably a one-time event resulting from the federal stimulus payments.)

Of course, we don't hear those assurances anymore. Stocks are back where they were eight years ago, and home prices are where they were five years ago.

Yep, the economy's on fire alright.
Quote:

... That's where the credit card reports come in. Last year, just as the subprime crisis happened, credit card debt took off. The home-equity ATM had been shut down, so people turned to the last source of easy money they had left, the most expensive debt on the menu, credit card borrowing. Since credit card debt has been growing much faster than the economy - more than 8% in last year's third and fourth quarters and over 7% in May (the most recent month reported)- people are apparently using it as a substitute for income. Thus, for the past year or so we have still maintained the standard-of-living illusion. But a big crunch is coming - and here's why. Credit card debt, like mortgage debt, gets bundled, securitized, and sold off by banks. Citigroup (C, Fortune 500), one of America's largest credit card lenders, just reported that it lost $176 million in the second quarter through securitizing such debt. That happens when the buyers of those securities observe rising delinquency rates and rising interest rates, and decide the debt is worth less than Citi thought. More generally, the amount of credit card debt that is securitized nationwide has plunged by more than half in the past five months because it's getting riskier. That means credit card issuers will be charging customers higher interest rates, and since the banks can't offload as much of the debt as before, they'll have less money to lend to cardholders.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/18/news/economy/Colvin_next_credit_crunch
.fortune/index.htm
?

And this is what happens when you don't recycle cash down to the worker-bees: You have to maintain "the economy" through debt and inflation. And that is the problem with profit: it concentrates capital to the point where it chokes the economy.

Where is Fletch2 when you want to say "I told you so"?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:47 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

The next credit crunch
Quote:

Fortune Magazine -- We made it through the bursting of the Internet bubble and now the bursting of the real estate bubble. Next we may be approaching the end of the most worrisome bubble of all: the standard-of-living bubble.

That conclusion comes from the latest data on credit card debt. It's growing fast, but the problem is bigger than that - and to understand what it means, we have to take a few steps back.

For the past several years, the average inflation-adjusted total pay of American workers hasn't been increasing.



So much for the myth of the robust economy under Bush...

After stocks collapsed, home prices took off, making us feel rich all over again. So we continued saving less and spending more, creating the illusion that our living standard was still rising. In 2005 our personal savings rate went negative, but even that didn't slow us down, because our homes were still appreciating - and rising home values meant that household net worths weren't declining. (Don't be fooled by that saving-rate spike in this year's second quarter; it was probably a one-time event resulting from the federal stimulus payments.)...


...And this is what happens when you don't recycle cash down to the worker-bees: You have to maintain "the economy" through debt and inflation. And that is the problem with profit: it concentrates capital to the point where it chokes the economy .



More to the point , this is what happens when ordinary folk don't hold a currency of intrinsic value...And , when the mission of the Central Bank (Federal Reserve) is to create a chronic debt cycle , chronic inflation , and facilitate the extraction of wealth from the people...

The mission of its evil twin , the IRS , is to facilitate the interest payments on the debt that the Federal Reserve enables...

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