REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Destruction of the US Dollar

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 14:43
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 13290
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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:23 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Anyone think there is a possibility of the Dollar imploding in the next 3 years?

Im talking about the logical perspective here and not some wacky political stuff on Bush, Kerry etc etc

If you stick to the facts, the price of oil, the rates of the US currency, food inflation, the jobless numbers, the debt levels. And take these kind of factual figures into account the Dollar does not look healthy anymore


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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:27 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


I have come to post online today to warn people who have savings in cash the worst is not over yet

and for a long time many fellow Browncoats, the CNN/Fox/BBC Financial advisers and Economic people have warned
well we're doing the wrong during a definite slowdown! I know debts were involved in creating the Depression in the '30s, a less middle America has not learned. There were American people owed money on stocks, yet the stocks were worthless so people defaulted, resulting in bank failures and people losing just about everything they had including their homes and almost the clothes of their backs. Why has the dollar been falling like a rock, this is partly down to the insane spending in the Whitehouse, run a deficit long enough and it becomes less attractive to buy your currency.


Food prices are going through the roof, even Milk is becoming that The White Gold - and Oil prices have risen from 30 bucks a barrel to over 120 bucks a barrel and they are still rising every day
Oil is rising to insane levels. We might have already reached peak oil and all oil wells, oil fields and oil provinces are exposed to a phenomenon called decline. With the growth of China and India the world now consumes over 29 billion barrels of oil per year plus there is big political unrest in producing countries sitting front seat to the Iraq war allowing speculators to drive prices through the roof. The Whitehouse needs to cutback on over spending, it is not smart for them to allow the Arab states and China to accumulate so many US dollars in their banks, giving them leverage over us. The the depreciation of the US$ $ $ has contributed to the rise in oil prices with countries like Iran making threats to price Oil in the European currency Euros instead of dollars. Debts in Washington are too high and we are giving more control of our economy to the Saudis and the Chinese.




If you have savings you should move them out of dollars and into other areas. Moving into commodities is a defensive asset, so this tends to rise when other things like your currency goes down. The collapse of the US housing market forced an entire sector of the financial world to suffer vast losses. Other Economies of the world also feel the pain because the less the US trades, the less money Japan, Europe, India, China also make because of loss the the US - this is a global economy. The Fed's recent freak out wasn't so much at the housing crises or the subprime itself.

The Fed freaking out was about the risk of cascade failure in the financial system and remember US citizens do not own our central bank it is a bank with a lot of private individuals behind it. Lessons are to be learned from the Asian markets, the Japanese also faced a housing bubble and lost a decade and a half because of companies going bankrupt, scandals and their Japanese banks facing pain, the Japan stocks Nikkei are at about a third of the level they were at 19 years ago. The DowJones is in trouble, I see the DJ stock index was over 14,000 last year, so it has come down since then. One idea is to change your dollars for Gold, Corn or Copper or selected currency that look strong like the Swiss Franc and this will help protect your money in the long run. Its not only you who feels the pain the average standard of living for each US citizen has dropped considerably since Y2K and the super rich have gotten richer at the expense of the middle class. Things must be altered, pushed in a better direction in the next months otherwise everything will be sacrificed in order to protect Washington's ability to borrow from powerful nations abroad, giving them even more power over our future.


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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Just make sure NOT to put that shit in a bank, or even a safe deposit box.

Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes: States Seize Citizens' Property to Balance Their Budgets
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4832471

I got burned by Old Court, I will *never* trust a bank to handle my funds again, not after having them drop the barriers and refuse to give me MY money.

Got nailed again by Signet, savings account closed for "lack of activity" while I was in Basic/AIT and there went some MORE money.

Fuck em, never again.

And if you think I trust my stuff anywhere that's out of my immediate reach and custody, you'd have to be nuts.

Money for Nothing
(A good HARD lesson in keeping custody of your own valuables!)
http://news.silverseek.com/TedButler/1193161018.php

Make damn sure that, when push comes to shove, your resources will BE there, in YOUR care, not in someone elses "vault" that doesn't really exist since they've long sold it - not on paper no one will honor when the chips come down, and certainly not in a bank which will drop the barriers and steal it to pay their own debts, hell no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis

Read my Sigline, curse it - history IS repeating itself, and THIS time around do NOT make the same dumbass mistakes of trusting a financial institution, or the Gov.

The FSLIC imploded when the markers came in, and those poor stupid ignorant foolish assholes who believed it protected them got nothing but a royal reaming.

The FDIC is every goddamn bit as insolvent if not more - so do you REALLY expect a better result this time around.

Not that I care, I am just sayin, don't be fuckin stupid - these assholes cannot be trusted, and if you place your trust, and your resources, in their hands, well, you deserve what happens.

Having delivered that warning my conscience required, I've nothing further to offer on the topic.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:42 AM

CHRISISALL


Silly JaynezTown, why all this alarmism? AURaptor has already assured us that it's just a smallish downturn, and that we're all safe, financially speaking.
Peeps just gotta stop trusting their own observations & conclusions. That's what leads to societal collapse.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:45 AM

PARTICIPANT


We have forgotten two lessons

the lesson of corrupt banking from the first great depression

and the lesson of energy supply from the 1970s Oil shocks

We need Energy-Independence

Every time we use energy or buy gasoline - 400 billion dollars goes overseas to Middle Eastern states that have people who are increasingly hostile to our way of life

Independent Energy and Freedom from Oil Cartels

Our power needs to be backed by Nuclear or Solar or something that can provide us our own needs, otherwise we can end up being chained up by Oil Sheiks

Is an issue of Economic Security and National Security






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Sunday, July 6, 2008 8:51 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
AURaptor has already assured us that it's just a smallish downturn, and that we're all safe



Watch this U-video,


its not just Housing or Iraq that is causing the dollar to sink
through many areas of over-spending the US could face a Financial crisis

There are other huge burdens besides to dotcom bubble ending, or the housing sector or Haliburton stealing money from our taxes to rebuild Iraq. The United States government is over spending not just in one area but in multiple areas like Medicare, failure in preparing retirement of baby booming generation, social security and if things are not acted upon in the next 3 years this could be the start of a financial tsunami

Watch this youtube


The Whitehouse is living beyond its means and US Immorality will the lead the Dollar to Bankruptcy

The American people cannot continue to consume $795 billion dollars more each year than the economy produces at home. The risk of a dollar collapse is never far away with debts at these levels. Un-pegging the Dollar from Gold and setting it to the value of Oil might have been the biggest mistake. During the Nixon and Vietnam years the Coinage Act provided the death sentence for anyone convicted of debasing U.S. coins and today the Dollar is backed up by NOTHING. The U.S. dollar, in terms of gold, has been devalued by 80%, or looking at it in another way, only 20% of the dollar's value remains. The Saudis and Asian central banks are trapped between the necessity to lower their dollar reserves, the need to buy dollars to keep their local currency stable and eventually to buy dollars when its rate is in danger to fall on the global currency markets, but if push comes to shove they might dump their dollars for another currency like European currency Euros. Iraq knew how much this was costing them so they decided to dump the Dollar. At time time the Euro was pretty worthless, it was weak and people saw the currency as monopoly money. Saddam’s switch to the Euro on in 2001 made him a lot of cash, the Euro started to become stable and strong and teher was even talk of it replacing the Dollar as the Global Currency but this all ended with the US invasion in 2003. It might not be fair to compare our current situation to the First Great Depression or the Oil Shock of the 1970s but many of the problems that sank the Soviet Union now endanger the United States of America. BinLaden's plan was not to win the war but to bankrupt the US economy. Over Spending is hurting the US Economy and like the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, it has a huge, well-equipped and very expensive military bogged down fighting Muslim freedom fighters in foreign lands. Also, an unstable currency and energy shortfalls linked to peaking oil production and horrendously unfavorable capital account and trade balances is resulting in runaway foreign debt, selling off our nation to places like China and Saudi Arabia.


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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:03 AM

MIIKE


i intend to burn my money as it is more usefull now as a fuel than as currency .i have also found other uses for the dollar as insulation for attics and toilet roll plus when added to water makes a great paper machee which can then be turned to infinite usess from hats to car body work .the dollar due to its abundance will soon be able to power cars by combustion engine and is a lot cleaner than oil to the enviroment .the dollar providing power for our future

im just going out,i may be some time

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:29 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by miike:
i intend to burn my money as it is more usefull now as a fuel than as currency .i have also found other uses for the dollar as insulation for attics and toilet roll plus when added to water makes a great paper machee which can then be turned to infinite usess from hats to car body work .




That sounds ridiculous and far fetched


Israel Comedy show

but it has happened, in post WW1 Germany the Kaiser (king) lost his power, during the Weimar period Germans suffered from inflation and German housewives started to burn money as fuel. The Banknotes of Zimbabwe have collapsed thanks to dictator Mugabe and his thugs and people also watched in horror from 1999–2002 as Argentine currency imploded during the economic crisis. The collapse of the US dollar is going to have much greater impact on the global economy and international political landscape than the collapse of the Argentinean peso ever did. Today OPEC nations and China have already been discussing about diversifying their sovereign wealth funds and other nations are talking about the Euro becoming the world's reserve currency. The Whitehouse is in a bind today. If they lift interest rates to try and support the dollar, it will increase the size of the US budget deficit, plus increase the possibility that the economy would go into a tailspin. The level of personal and corporate debt in the USA has sky rocketed so much, that a sudden increase in interest rates would likely bring about an economic collapse. Either way, unless we act fast in the next 3 yrs America is in deep trouble.



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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:36 AM

MIIKE


yeah i know that 'that was like the bad taste joke. first saw paper money with low value being used for other things in eygpt as all their money was paper the lowest note i think 10 paisa or something was being used by the locals as cheap toilet paper so when getting change i would always tell the locals to keep it.but really being alarmist will actually deflate the worth of the currency espesially if a lot of people put their money in other assets this will deflate the value the best way to help a country out of recession is for the people to spend spend spend

im just going out,i may be some time

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:54 AM

MIIKE


just saw the isreali comedy thing it was quite funny till the rather shocking portrayal of condi rice i mean thats a pretty low impression in my book and border line racist or maybe im a bit too sensitve sometimes i dont know

im just going out,i may be some time

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:13 PM

PARTICIPANT


That number is wrong

The debt isn't 6.164 Tril

The total U.S. debt was approximately $9.2455 Trillion that's trillion with a T

Where Trillion = 1000 Billion

or
9 , 2 4 5 , 5 0 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 dollars and . 00 cents

The debt clock will be broken by the end of the year because it will have run out of numbers

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:51 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


The National Debt Clock in April 2008 said U.S. debt was $9.5 trillion. Add to this math unfunded Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security obligations and it's almost $ 60 trillion !!!!

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:46 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
The National Debt Clock in April 2008 said U.S. debt was $9.5 trillion. Add to this math unfunded Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security obligations and it's almost $ 60 trillion !!!!

We should have voted for a CONSERVATIVE Republican for President then, dontcha think?
Not the adventurist, big-government, militaristic, pro-deficit guy that's in there now...

Just sayin' isall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 8:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The dollar won't implode due to government spending, or else Carter would have ended our economy instead of just setting it back 7 years.
The thing to keep an eye on is the oil/Euro/Dollar relationship. The oil standard switched from U.S Dollar to Euro, and that could be a problem.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:58 PM

PARTICIPANT


Back during the Carter years we still made things, manufactured stuff, you could buy radios, cars and so forth that were all made in the USA and the world was not so internationalised. One of a whole wide range of modern threats to economic stability could materialise and deliver a massive new shock to the world economy. Back during the Carter years there was also no alternative to the Dollar but today people can globalise trade by selling Steel, Oil and so forth in the European currency. In New York City some traders have already switched to the new currency. When Economists talk of the European notes getting above the Dollar, these are savage blows to the Dollar and the Dollar has weakened against a whole wide range of currencies. Strangely we should be thanking the Chinese, if they were not financing our debts the Dollar would Implode. Some accuse when the Dollar does finally collapse, it will be expected and be engineered by powerful people like the BillGates of the world, the Rothchilds, Rockefellers, Warren Buffets. With the implosion of a currency people get desperate for trade, money etc the NAFTA super tollway from Mexico to Canada and the NAU might have already lead the foundations for a currency take over and the NAU. The billions and billions of dollars China has invested in the flagging American currency will be worthless. The Chinese and American political leaders will have to negotiate the exchange rate to the new Amero. This will then force the creation of the North American Union. This will be the move to replace the Dollar with a new N. American currency

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Monday, July 7, 2008 11:35 AM

JAYNEZTOWN



Eight Reasons Food Prices Will Keep Rising
By Jeffrey Strain (07/07/08)

http://www.mainstreet.com/eight-reasons-food-prices-will-keep-rising?p
uc=msgoogle&cm_ven=MSGoogle


Quote:


Be prepared -- food is going to become more expensive, even if oil prices stabilize.

Agriculture tends to be heavily dependent on energy for fueling tractors and field equipment, as well as having a heavy reliance on petroleum-based fertilizers and herbicides. But what most people don't realize is that even if oil prices level off, food prices are likely to continue to rise.

Here are some reasons food prices will continue to increase.

Bees
The number of bees has been dramatically declining over the last few years. In 2006, Colony Collapse Disorder wiped out 30% to 90% of beekeeper hives. The losses continued last year through this year with over 30% of hives being destroyed in both 2007 and 2008.

The exact cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is not known. Since roughly 75% of flowering plants rely on pollination to help them reproduce, bees are an important link in the chain that produces much of the food that we eat. Without bees to pollinate crops, the crops can't bear fruit, causing crop yields to drop. The end result is higher prices in the supermarket for these foods.

Hoarding

A growing number of countries have sharply curbed food exports in order to ensure an adequate supply of food at affordable prices for their country. While this trend is a much bigger problem for poor countries that rely heavily on imported food than the U.S., it also puts pressure on world food prices including those foods being imported to the U.S.

To make matters worse, the hoarding creates the perception of food shortages, which can lead to more hoarding and further increases food prices.

World Demand for Food

There is a growing demand for food around the world with the emergence of a middle class in such places as China, Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. With more disposable income, these people demand more and a greater variety of food. These middle classes will likely continue to increase, placing more pressure on world food prices.

The Lowly Dollar

The dollar has fallen against other world currencies over the past year. When the dollar goes down in value against other currencies, any dollar-denominated commodity tends to go up in price.

Part of the huge increase in oil prices can be attributed to the fall of the value of the dollar against other currencies. In the same way, most major food commodities are traded in dollars, which makes foreign-produced food more expensive.

Hidden Price Increases
Normally, food manufacturers would be hard-pressed to increase food prices further if they had already raised prices with their increased costs from oil. There is always fear among food manufacturers when they must raise prices that doing so will cause a decline in the amount they can sell. One way around this that manufacturers have been using is that instead of raising the price marked on the product, they simply place less into the package. Many people don't notice the change so they don't lose as much in sales.

Having done this, food manufacturers still have room to raise the actual prices where they would have been much more reluctant to do so if they had previously raised prices the same way.

Weather
Recent flooding in the Midwest and Corn Belt has prevented farmers from planting soybeans and damaged the corn crop, which had recently been planted. Analysts have estimated that there may be a shortfall of 15% or more in grain produced this year compared to last year due to the flooding.

The bad weather hasn't been limited to the U.S. Poor weather has reduced overall global food production from Canada, the European Union and Eastern Europe over the last couple of years. A drought has resulted in a major Australian wheat decline. This has tightened world food stocks, which has contributed to rising food prices.

Speculation

Speculation's role in increased food prices is hotly debated, but it appears that investors have taken an interest in food prices and are playing a larger role in the commodity markets.

As food supplies tighten, there is a good chance that speculators will increase in the hope of making a quick buck, further increasing food prices.

Ethanol Production

With the rise of oil prices, U.S. ethanol production has greatly increased. It's expected that over 30% of the U.S. corn crop will go toward ethanol production this year.

With such a large portion of the corn crop going to ethanol production, there will be increased competition for the food in other uses, such as feed for cattle and dairy cows, manufactured foods like cereals and foods sweetened with corn syrup.

All indications are that food will get more expensive and you should be preparing for these coming increases. While cutting food prices isn't necessarily difficult, it does take practice and time to learn to take advantage of the money saving tricks out there.

It's time to adopt grocery money-saving strategies, stock up your pantry, use coupons and watch out for the ways stores trick you into spending more than you planned.




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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:33 AM

PARTICIPANT


So often we are told by US politicians that NAFTA, and outsourcing jobs will help the Economy but where are the benefits!?!? The Euro is not really gaining, the Dollar is falling - measure the Dollar's purchasing power against Oil and Gold and the currency sucks, certain powerful people are trying to undermine the US Dollar. Housing can slump again and the President is spending a billion a week in iraq and for what? Building Islamic thugs Al-moqtada Alsadr new shiny homes in Iraq while the people in need in America are without jobs, with the end of the Dollar maybe a global currency will emerge as the Amero. Enjoy these days, America is the top dog now, but nothing lasts.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 6:02 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Dollar woes cramp economy, US consumers, but the government's options are limited

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/08/business/NA-FEA-US-Dollar-Do
ldrums.php

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 6:38 AM

CHRISISALL


We're humped.

Washisall

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 6:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

There is no great cause for alarm. The U.S. dollar is not some kind of invented commodity with a made-up value. Rather, it either has intrinsic worth based on its mineral makeup, or is backed by precious ores such as gold and silver that have been...

What's that?

Oh.

Shit.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 7:10 AM

SIMONWHO


The real killer is going to be gold. If the oil producing nations switch to the Euro as the currency oil is bought and sold in, the dollar is going to crash horrifically.

I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Gold has no intrinsic value. It has some industrial uses, but the value of gold, gemstones, and some of the other hedges are based on sheer speculation. Value can fall just as quickly as it rose if speculators perceive a "better" investment elsewhere.

The oil-producing countries already are shifting to the Euro.
Iran turns from dollar to euro in oil sales
Quote:

Iran is selling more of its oil for payment in euros than dollars as it seeks to shift its foreign currency reserves away from the depreciating currency of its political enemy, the United States. The world’s fourth-biggest oil exporter has inserted a clause in its oil contracts allowing it to request payment in alternative currencies.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article126395
4.ece


Some say that the Euro question was the real reason for invading Iraq: Iraq had already switched to the Euro on 2000 and was about to sign oil contracts with France and the USSR, the payment was also to be in Euros. Similarly, some say that the Euro option is the real reason for wanting to invade Iran.


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:10 AM

PARTICIPANT


We need a shock to wake us up, there were warning signs about the Great Economic Depression but we did nothing until it was too late, warning signs about Japan and Germany before 1941 but we only acted when our Habor was destroyed. Most people refer to the Stock Market crash of 1929 as the beginning of the Great Depression, but it actually started before the Stock Market Crash for most Americans. Oil has been America's Achilles heel for sometime and everytime we fuel up billions of dollars go overseas to Arab nations who are starting to really dislike us. Each American citizen's share of the national debt works out, according to the National Debt clock works to $29,150.10. This recent debasement of the dollar should have sounded a national alarm bell to the ears of traditional America but again we sit in a slumber, stuck on a diet of pop-tv and junk food and media sound bytes. Presidents should have been leading responsible pay-as-you-go financing. Another sudden dollar decline would at least threaten to produce a wage-price spiral - and the mere threat would mean that the Fed reserve would likely be forced to raise rates. Many news websites reported last month that the Chinese, Japanese etc are considering abandoning the U.S. dollar as their national reserve currency but CNN, Fox etc refused to pick up this story. I think we will have realised we are in meltdown point when the finance people take some additional action to stop the dollar drop, but it won't be enough, and the currency markets won't do what the ministers want.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What is happening to Americans is a microcosm of world finances.

Production, investments, and services are created by demand. For decades, the USA was the "world consumer", creating the German, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Saudi, UAE, and Chinese economies. Without us, they wouldn't have had anyone to sell to. Since we were the also world's leading industrial economy, our currency meant something: it was bakced by the full faith and credit of our economy and our technological prowess.

That ended a few decades ago and we've been coasting on credit ever since.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:21 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.

Weird, just the other day I said pretty much the same thing to a friend of mine. Glad I'm not the only one who's had this thought.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.

Weird, just the other day I said pretty much exactly the same thing to a friend of mine. Glad I'm not the only one who's had this thought.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.



It ain't just y'all. I been thinkin' it for quite some time now. No matter who gets elected, they're going to inherit about 37 kinds of shit, and they're going to get all the blame for it.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
No matter who gets elected, they're going to inherit about 37 kinds of shit, and they're going to get all the blame for it.




So you ADMIT that the last eight years were Clinton's fault!!!!!!

just thought I'd say it before AU did...

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:32 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


This is BEARnanke territory

The Bank of England listening to people like Greenspan, is keeping its rates at 5 percent and might increase it. While our new guy Bernanke is slashing like crazy and running the dollar printing press as fast as he can.

In Japan, the Nikkei had its worst losing steak in 45 years

Quote:

(AP) — Leaders from the Group of Eight industrialized powers expressed "strong concern" about rising oil and food prices but said they remain "positive" about the outlook for the global economy in a communique released Tuesday.

Saying that surging oil prices pose a risk to the world economy, the G-8 leaders urged that production and refining capacities be increased in the short term and that investment be boosted over the medium-term.

The G-8 — which groups the US, Britain, Japan, France, Germany, Canada, Russia and Italy — also called for diversifying sources of energy and further efforts to improve energy efficiency.

To enhance energy security, the leaders proposed an energy forum focused on energy efficiency and new technology to help dialogue between producers and consumers. No further details were available.

"We remain positive about the long-term resilience of our economies and future global growth," the leaders said in the statement released on the second day of the G-8’s three-day summit in northern Japan, noting that growth in emerging economies remained strong.

"However, the world economy is now facing uncertainty and downside risks persist," the statement said.


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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 2:40 AM

PARTICIPANT


Gas prices stay in record territory remaining at $4.10 a gallon

The Dollar dropped again

Oil is up with tension rising in Turkey and Iran

Gold may hit $1000/ounce

Commodity like Gold have become more popular as an investment to stop your savings from dropping in value


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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 5:38 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


meh....

It's funny. I was the number one guy telling people the sky was falling and now that the shit is coming down, I'm the least worried about it.

We'll make it through, no matter what happens. This isn't the first time.

I really don't like the FED controlling this all though. Those guys aren't stupid. We're where we are at because that's where they wanted us to be today. Greenspan knew exactly what he was doing when he all but ruined the American dollar. Bernake isn't doing much to win my approval either. I made 20 bucks interest last month on a 15,000 investment. It's sick that they lowered the rates so much again.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 5:44 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I was the number one guy telling people the sky was falling

I think Signy, Rue and I were right there with ya, Six.

But I guess we're all wrong- AU says there is no recession. We can all take our toys home now....

Rich Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 5:53 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Yeah... you're probaly right Chriss. Although I agreed with you much more often than the others you mentioned, we did all mention that.

Whatcha going to do though? When prices get high enough people wont' be able to pay and they're going to have to lower prices. The system is in for a correction. Meanwhile, hopefully you're on the list of those least effected.

My savings is tanking from inflation and low interest rates. I made some investments in the market at what I thought were bottoms, but they keep getting lower. I like my picks though and I will ride them out. No sense in getting all worked up about things that are WAY out of my control. I used to do that and most of ya'all thought I was a nut.

Like I said, I don't make much. I live insanely within my means. Sure, the damage to my savings is pissing me off, but I'll live. I think you'll find that many of us can make it just fine today without any assistance or worry if we learn to live within our means again.

Good luck to you and yours...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 6:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Whatcha going to do though? When prices get high enough people wont' be able to pay and they're going to have to lower prices
No they won't. If they can sell to China or the EU for more, they will. Why else do you think that people starve to death in food-exporting countries?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:23 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Stop Bernanke From Swiping Your Savings
http://www.fool.com/investing/small-cap/2008/07/01/stop-bernanke-from-
swiping-your-savings.aspx

Quote:

No, he's not clad in black PJ's and sneaking into bank vaults. If only. Ben Bernanke is engaged in a process that's far more insidious and far more damaging to your financial well-being. He's helping to erode the buying power of your hard-earned, long-saved dollars with easy-money policies.

Hungry yet?
The evidence is everywhere, even in the "core" CPI, which pretends that food and energy prices don't matter. Yet those of us who do eat shelled out 5% more in May than we did last year. Get a load of what inflation has done to the following staples:


http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/07/09/getting-burned-by-ber
nanke.aspx

Quote:

The Fed's monetary policies, though, have led us to our current situation. Commodities have spiked not because of shadowy speculators, but rather because the Fed has allowed the dollar to grow weak and stay weak. Bernanke said he would support a strong, stable dollar, but then allowed interest rates to hold steady. Oil, which initially fell on the news, surged again. Equities, which have been sagging all along as the economy itself stagnates, have continued to fall, despite all of the Fed's stimulus plans.

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:13 AM

PARTICIPANT


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

There is no great cause for alarm. The U.S. dollar is not some kind of invented commodity with a made-up value. Rather, it either has intrinsic worth based on its mineral makeup, or is backed by precious ores such as gold and silver that have been...

What's that?

Oh.

Shit.

--Anthony

r



I should have bought gold when all this stuff began, I would have made a small fortune

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:25 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


IndyMac bank seized by US amid intensifying crisis

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHT0GmHDBOa4LFutdswkfe-SSvOg

Quote:

LOS ANGELES (AFP) — Federally-seized IndyMac Bank was due to reopen Monday after suffering one of the biggest bank closures in US history, as the troubled US mortgage industry struggles to stem further meltdown.

The regulatory Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) announced Friday it had placed the California-based bank, worth an estimated 32 billion dollars, under the control of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC).

The mortgage lender, which will reopen as IndyMac Federal Bank, marked the largest bank failure in a year of mortgage and foreclosure crisis highlighted by a surge in defaults and a plunge in housing prices which are rippling through the US economy...
...
Reports said IndyMac's collapse was the second biggest in US history behind the 1984 failure of the 40-billion-dollar Continental Illinois Bank.


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Monday, July 21, 2008 3:38 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.

At this point, I'm just wondering if you ever have anything positive to say about anything in your life ever?

For a pessimist, I guess I'm pretty optimistic. You should give it a try once. Your bleeding heart bullshit is getting pretty boring and that's why I don't come around here much anymore. You're obviously not hurting much yourself if you've still got an internet connection.

It's nice outside. Get some sun and stop worrying about everything. You're not going to fix a damn thing by whining. When/if the house of cards fall, you're going to really have plenty of things to bitch about that destroy your way of living and you're going to wish you had enjoyed the good times a little more than you allowed yourself to.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, July 21, 2008 8:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

You're not going to fix a damn thing by whining.


Define "irony". Whining on the internet about someone else whining. On the internet.

At least now we know that Signy singlehandedly caused IndyMac to fail. All bow to the almighty Signy!!



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:58 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Gold has no intrinsic value. It has some industrial uses, but the value of gold, gemstones, and some of the other hedges are based on sheer speculation...

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.



Surely you jest...

I'm often surprised by foolk who say this...

Gold has unique metallurgical , industrial , and medical uses for which it has no peer or acceptable substitute...

Consequently , 'intrinsic' value...If you don't agree , I'll send you a postpaid , return-addressed envelope in which you can place your 'scrap' , non-intrinsically-valued gold , and send it to me...I'll 'dispose' of it safely and properly ,
at " no expense " to you...

It's easy to look this stuff up , and it only takes a couple of minutes...

In case you want to examine some facts ,
here's a link to a Malcolm Forbes media company website , the Investopedia ,
and the definition of Lawful Money :

< http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawfulmoney.asp>

There's the facts...Federal Reserve Notes are Not Lawful Money...

Doesn't matter how many greenbacks one has , they're still not lawful money by definition ; they're just a means of creating and perpetuating debt , because , unlike Real Lawful Money , these bank 'notes' have no intrinsic value , apart from the little rectangular piece of cotton rag they're printed upon...

If you'd like to find out where to get the definition for what constitutes Lawful Money , there's the Constitution , and the Coinage Act (1792).

< http://landru.i-link-2.net/monques/coinageact.html> Coinage Act

"SEC. 9. And be it further enacted, That there shall be from time to time struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denomination, values and descriptions, viz. Eagles—each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold. Half Eagles—each to be of the value of five dollars, and to contain one hundred and twenty-three grains and six eighths of a grain of pure, or one hundred and thirty-five grains of standard gold. Quarter Eagles—each to be of the value of two dollars and a half dollar, and to contain sixty-one grains and seven eighths of a grain of pure, or sixty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of standard gold. Dollars or Units—each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and
four sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver. Half Dollars—each to be of half the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain one hundred and eighty-five grains and ten sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or two hundred and eight grains of standard silver. Quarter Dollars—each to be of one fourth the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain ninety-two grains and thirteen sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or one hundred and four grains of standard silver. Dismes—each to be of the value of one tenth of a dollar or unit, and to contain thirty-seven grains and two sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or forty-one grains and three fifths parts of a grain of standard silver. Half Dismes—each to be of the value of one twentieth of a dollar, and to contain eighteen grains and nine sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or twenty grains and four fifths parts of a grain of standard silver. Cents—each
to be of the value of one hundredth part of a dollar, and to contain eleven penny-weights of copper. Half Cents—each to be of the value of half a cent, and to contain five penny-weights and a half a penny-weight of copper.
Half Eagles.
Quarter Eagles.
Dollars or Units.
Half Dollars.
Quarter Dollars.
Dismes.
Half Dismes.
Cents.
Half Cents.
31 USC 5101
Of what devices. SEC. 10. And be it further enacted, That, upon the said coins respectively, there shall be the following devices and legends, namely: Upon one side of each of the said coins there shall be an impression emblematic of liberty, with an inscription of the word Liberty, and the year of the coinage; an upon the reverse of each of the gold and silver coins there shall be the figure or representation of an eagle, with this inscription, "United States of America" and upon the reverse of each of the copper coins, there shall be an inscription which shall express the denomination of the piece, namely, cent or half cent, as the case may require."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


See Also , ARTICLE I , Section 8 , The
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES ,

" The Congress shall have Power To...Coin MONEY, Regulate the Value thereof , and of foreign Coin , and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures ; "

Notice that the specific weights and measures , and the Metals of intrinsic value , are thoroughly enumerated within the Coinage Act...

Meanwhile , there's " free education ", if one should choose to be availed of it...

Make a start :



Here's another one , about how our country is being cut in two , for the profit of private , foreign interests :




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Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.
6ix, I'm trying to tell you that a system based on greed will act... yanno, GREEDY. It's not fear-mongering that's causing banks to fail, it's predatory lending caused by unbridled greed. But somehow you manage to get it bass-ackwards.

I just got a copy of a local paper from my hometown. The headline said "American Axle Spares Cheektowaga.. But Tonawanda Plant to Close" A union member who voted for the contract put it this way: It was either vote no and lose my job... or vote yes, get a buyout, and lose my job

You think you can make that go away with happy-think?


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


O2B- Because gold doesn't corrode, conducts metal and is easily smelted it is useful for SOME things, such as electronic contacts. (OTOH, nothing disinfects like silver.) But the current value of gold has nothing to do with it's utility and more do do with speculative value. To reiterate Rue's point: to a man dying of thirst, water is more precious than gold.

I'm not denying gold's historic value. But there may come a time when something else becomes more valuable than gold, simply due to changing circumstances. Food, for instance.

Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:22 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.


My view exactly.
"Change is the essential process of all existence."


Spockisall

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:44 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- Because gold doesn't corrode, conducts metal and is easily smelted it is useful for SOME things, such as electronic contacts. (OTOH, nothing disinfects like silver.) But the current value of gold has nothing to do with it's utility and more do do with speculative value. To reiterate Rue's point: to a man dying of thirst, water is more precious than gold.



But , if he had a dollar's worth of gold , or a dollar's worth of silver , or something besides a piece of cotton rag on hand , he'd possibly be able to get his drink of water...If he had something of intrinsic worth to trade for something of intrinsic worth , the water , then he wouldn't be 'dying' , perhaps ? Your guy was dying because he only had a Federal Reserve bank 'note' to trade...When those become 'worthless' , they'll have something else to offer , and an 'inducement' for people to trade in those notes for the next fashionable phony 'money'...Also controlled by Central Bankers ! The United States has no Sovereignty without its own sovereign , Lawful Money , a UNIT of which is a specified Amount of a clearly-defined Metal !

Still , you and Rue have one thing in common in that little allegory...Logic failure ! It's a fallacious argument , and your 'dying man' is made of straw...


The current value of gold has EVERYTHING to do with its Utility ; because of its unique and intrinsic properties , it is ALWAYS in demand !

It's also in demand because wealthy people who know the difference between a 'fiat' currency and TRUE SUBSTANCE need it to preserve their 'wealth'...Take a look at the selloff of private jets , yachts , and 'jumbo' real estate holdings...They're being traded in so their owners can diversify their wealth with metals...The price of Metals is going up , while the 'value' of the US DOLLAR (Federal Reserve Note variety) is headed South...That's really not 'speculation' , it's AWARENESS...

You do know there's an inherent difference between price and value , don't you ?

You're thinking of the 'price' of gold in relation to Federal Reserve Notes , when you say 'current value'.

A Federal Reserve Note is NOT a Dollar...It's a piece of scrip , on a cotton rag...THAT'S why it can't say , 'This NOTE is LAWFUL MONEY' , because it ISN'T...It says This NOTE is 'Legal Tender'...That's Banker/Lawyer language for ,
" You've been Screwed , Dude !".

To claim it as Lawful Money would be FRAUD , and some folk would be consequently locked into their own Vaults...

If it's not 'Lawful' Money , what is it?...UNLAWFUL...Some folk seem able to 'Do The Math' on this point , but , a LOT of others , not so much...

A 'DOLLAR' is a Legally-defined Unit of Measurement...Go back and read the Coinage Act , it's the Law...If in further doubt , go check the Constitution...



Quote:

I'm not denying gold's historic value. But there may come a time when something else becomes more valuable than gold, simply due to changing circumstances. Food, for instance.


Yes , you are denying its historic value , and the Constitutional requirements that Visionary men demanded , at the Founding of the United States...To keep Us from being subjected to the whims and vagaries of 'central' banks , and the Tyrants who controlled them , they insisted that a 'dollar' be something with an 'inflation-proof' intrinsic value , not a worthless piece of scrip...THEY didn't deny the historic value of gold and silver , or copper...Throughout history , they've been commodities with true staying power , known and proven , and esteemed by virtually every culture...


Quote:


Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.



I'M not making the assumptions here...I KNOW that things will NOT continue the same...And , it WILL NOT be Pretty...It's not a matter of IF it will crash , but WHEN...I Agree , Food will likely become a commodity more esteemed than gold , and certainly of much greater value than a Federal Reserve Note...There's an ancient proverb that says ,

" Where the Leaders lack Vision the People suffer..."

There is a lot of suffering up ahead...

You plainly haven't done your homework...Go
re-read the assigned pages , and get a little lesson in economics , before you're given another 'F'...

"This show isn't about the people who made history; it's about the people history stepped on." - Joss Whedon

"So this is Us , on the raggedy edge..."
- Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 6:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


O2B- In a desert where EVERYONE is thirsty, water may become the currency of choice. Have you ever read Dune? And nice hard corundum blades, suitable for digging wells, might be more valuable per ounce than gold. Even paper money might have a higher value... as kindling, if nothing else. Sure, gold is pretty and shiny. It doesn't corrode. But it's heavy and it's too soft to turn into a tool.

Yes, gold has had a historic value. But the only "intrinsic" value that you can point to is the fact that rich people seem to value it. So you're basing your valuation on the belief and opinion of others. And values based on "opinion" or "belief" is still speculation. Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?

BTW- I have nothing against gold. I bought a sizeable amount over a year ago because I could see the dollar was going to tank. I also bought into selected foreign currency hedge funds. But if I think that something else will increase in value faster than gold... or foreign currencies... I'll dump the gold and buy into that. Even if it's tulip bulbs. (You should read about the tulip bulb mania of the 1600's.) It's all fluid.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 7:40 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


So , do we agree that we're in an economic wasteland ?

Just so you know , the tulip bulbs have long been old news to me...

" There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil , for every one striking at the root..."

Folk just need to know that there can never be a stable economy , or a Sovereign nation , built upon a house of cards made of Federal Reserve Notes...

Our economy is being debased according to an old design...Those who choose to ignore the facts of history will reap in the same way that they've sown...

You've conceded that gold DOES have an intrinsic value , and pointed out some of its particular uses...

But , you keep forgetting what you've already noted , and you are doomed to keep repeating what has gone before...

Gold has unique physical and chemical properties , just like germanium , tungsten , tantalum , platinum , etc .

Each of them have unique applications that give them their intrinsic value , and some are esteemed particularly because of their relative rarity...

In turns , you've both acknowledged , then subsequently DENIED , these facts...

Neither cotton rag nor Federal Reserve Notes are Lawful Money , and digital 'bits' aren't , either...

The forecast calls for pain...

Either you're a part of the problem , or a part of its solution...

If you don't believe in the intrinsic value of gold , what are you doing with it ?

Do you even have custody of it ? If you don't , you have no right to act surprised when it disappears like your digital bits...

If you still want to flagellate your appendages , and your expired equine ,
about how your gold has no 'intrinsic' value , I'll send a truck , or an envelope , to take it off your hands , whichever is more appropriate...

'Cause , you are my kind of stupid...

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If you don't believe in the intrinsic value of gold , what are you doing with it ?
Speculating.
Quote:

Do you even have custody of it ?
Yep.
Quote:

If you still want to flagellate your appendages , and your expired equine , about how your gold has no 'intrinsic' value , I'll send a truck , or an envelope , to take it off your hands , whichever is more appropriate...
If that ain't the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Just because it's current value far exceeds its "intrinsic" value doesn't mean that it's valueless at the moment. Tell you what... if fiat money is so valueless, how about you give me all of yours? And, do you suppose you can discuss w/o being insulting?

I'll get to the "root" of the problem later.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:18 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.
6ix, I'm trying to tell you that a system based on greed will act... yanno, GREEDY. It's not fear-mongering that's causing banks to fail, it's predatory lending caused by unbridled greed. But somehow you manage to get it bass-ackwards.

I just got a copy of a local paper from my hometown. The headline said "American Axle Spares Cheektowaga.. But Tonawanda Plant to Close" A union member who voted for the contract put it this way: It was either vote no and lose my job... or vote yes, get a buyout, and lose my job

You think you can make that go away with happy-think?


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.



Signy, stop being so greedy with your money! You just don't get it, do you? You're supposed to be giving it all to the banks, so they don't fail. It's not your place to wonder what they're doing with it, and it's not your place to try to say how it's spent. It's greedy to want to have any say over your own money! The banks know best, and they know what they're doing. If they didn't know exactly what they were doing, and how to do it better than us mere mortals, they'd fail.

Oh. Shit. Never mind.

But I still think it's greedy of you to want to have any access to your own money, when the banks clearly need it so much more than you do. After all, YOU aren't billions and trillions in debt, are you? Well, they and the government ARE, so that proves that you're greedy and they're not - if they were, they couldn't have just given away so much money!






Takin' Care of Business, Baby!

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I bought gold for long-term potential value as an industrial metal whose cheap sources are probably tapped-out.

But you know - people are looking for other metals to use as catalysts and in circuits, and gold could be replaced. And if gold is valuable enough, a new extraction process might make it cheaper to produce, or new sources may be found. Or the global economy might tank and the industrial demand for gold might drop for purely economic reasons. Demand for jewelry (80% of gold demand in 2003) could drop. Other things I haven't even thought about might happen. In other words, gold may NOT be the short-supply high-use-demand resource I think it will be.

In the meantime, now that speculation has temporarily topped-out the value of gold (another source of 'value'), it certainly would be worth my while to cash out my gold and try to find something else that will appreciate faster. And get back to gold later.

No, gold has no value beyond what we temporarily give it. In that way it's exactly like the other shiny bits of metal we trade with, as well as colored pieces of paper. Or shells, or ivory or any other item we assign value to.

I too have taken physical possession btw. Personally, I think it looks pretty.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:19 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


O2B- In a desert where EVERYONE is thirsty, water may become the currency of choice. Have you ever read Dune?



Sure , I've read Dune...
Despite the fact that you're plainly 'high on spice' , that stuff still hasn't given you any insight or prescience...Or , appreciation for history...

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Sure, gold is pretty and shiny. It doesn't corrode. But it's heavy and it's too soft to turn into a tool.




It's only your arguments that are too soft to turn into a tool...You , on the other hand , are a 'tool' , because you're a soft 'target' for the twin engines of our national destruction , the IRS and the Federal Reserve...
Consider yourself poked and forked , because you are 'done'...

Plainly , you don't know what constitutes a 'tool'...There are innumerable applications for gold in nanotechnology and nanomedicine , aerospace , electronics , etc.
That's intrinsic value , based on chemistry and physics , which are holding up pretty well , along with certain other immutable Laws of the Universe...

Demand impacts the available supply , and consequently , the 'price'...Never said that it wasn't a commodity , but it is the Lawfully-specified commodity upon which our economy is required to be based , along with Silver and Copper...All 'strategic' metals , because of their unique, intrinsic , properties...

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?





Market forces...Supply and Demand...Perception of an 'expanding' economy and relatively more responsible policies on the part of 'government' during that timeframe...Duh !

But , still no Lawful Money during that period...

Prior to that , John Kennedy wanted to return this country to its Lawful , Constitutional roots , a metals-based economic system...Soon thereafter , he was assasinated , and LBJ got busy reversing the orders...

A Sovereign nation truly cannot be run at the whim of private banksters...As long as there are Constitutional standards (Metals) being met...

Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?...

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Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?..."

And uhhhh, are we supposed to rally around this, at this point ? Have you given up on facts ? Is this your final argument ?

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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