REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Believe me, it's torture

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 05:35
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Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
The issue is not whether waterboarding is the worst thing ever, nor how the US compares to the Nazis. The issue is whether we're on the right path. The fact that keep ignoring that, and focusing on tit-for-tat nonsense, indicates that you recognize how pointless it is to defend our current policies.



What ever made you think I was defending our current policies? If you have a problem with anything the American government is doing, there are procedures already in place to correct them. Either vote the bastards out or indict them. Thats the path I'm defending. From the rhetoric I get here, many of you aren't happy with those options and want everyone to grab torches and pitchforks and join the mob storming the castle. Only bodies hanging from the battlements will satisfy you, and anyone who thinks that mob violence might be as much a betrayal of our national morals as waterboarding is a traitor to your cause.

I think the bastards are voted out, which is as it should be if the people aren't happy with their actions. In this imperfect world, that's a win. If we tarred and feathered the bastards and paraded them through the streets then we, the people, would be just as bad as the ones we were punishing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What ever made you think I was defending our current policies?
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

GASP!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


gasp!


ahahahaha...

tee hee hee hee

heheh heheh heh heh he...

chortle....


mmmmph!

*wipes eyes*

Oh man, you're a hoot!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:08 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
What ever made you think I was defending our current policies? If you have a problem with anything the American government is doing, there are procedures already in place to correct them. Either vote the bastards out or indict them. Thats the path I'm defending. From the rhetoric I get here, many of you aren't happy with those options and want everyone to grab torches and pitchforks and join the mob storming the castle.



Alright. Fair enough. I see the distinction you're making. But I think you're misinterpreting most of us here if you think we want to storm the castle. Bitching and complaining is an important part of the 'process'. If we don't raise awareness and have the public debate, nothing gets changed. You seem to be suggesting that we sit quietly and passively until it's our turn to vote and politely register our opinions. That kind of passivity just isn't American in my book.

Quote:

I think the bastards are voted out, which is as it should be if the people aren't happy with their actions. In this imperfect world, that's a win. If we tarred and feathered the bastards and paraded them through the streets then we, the people, would be just as bad as the ones we were punishing.


Agreed, except for two points. First of all, we've still got six months to deal with. They can do a lot of damage in that span, so I think we need to maintain diligent public scrutiny on their actions. Secondly, this isn't about the current administration as much as it's about the next one. We need to provide them a clear mandate if we are to expect any change at all. That goes for Obama as well as McCain.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:38 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Do you really consider waterboarding a few folk, none of whom dies, as being superior in brazen evil to the killing fields of Cambodia, the gas chambers of the Nazis, the 60 million or so killed in various Soviet terror campaigns, Rwanda, Sudan, etc.?



And just so you don't think I'm picking on foreigners, How about the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Trail of Tears, Lincoln's suspension of Habeus Corpus, Jim Crow, the Black Hills, Hawaii, internment of Japanese-Americans, Montgomery, the Bay of Pigs, etc.

What makes waterboarding so much worse than these things? Or is it just that you don't like the current administration as much as you did Lincoln or Roosevelt or Kennedy?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



I have maintained one was as bad as the next




Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Alright. Fair enough. I see the distinction you're making. But I think you're misinterpreting most of us here if you think we want to storm the castle. Bitching and complaining is an important part of the 'process'. If we don't raise awareness and have the public debate, nothing gets changed.



But you have to have the debate. Calling someone a fool, stupid, ignorant or irrational when they don't agree with you isn't debate. Having a mind closed to any viewpoint but your own isn't debate. Hyperbole isn't debate.

Quote:

First of all, we've still got six months to deal with. They can do a lot of damage in that span, so I think we need to maintain diligent public scrutiny on their actions.

That's fine, but rehashing waterboarding again and again doesn't really further that idea. You got the best resolution that's going to happen. It's a dead issue and should be dropped while you go on to new concerns.
Quote:

Secondly, this isn't about the current administration as much as it's about the next one. We need to provide them a clear mandate if we are to expect any change at all. That goes for Obama as well as McCain.


Seems pretty clear from the mid-terms and the probable outcome of the presidential election that the mandate has changed. Note that other folks got other mandates, related to waterboarding or not, that might have more impact on their decision on who to vote for, so final outcomes may vary from what you want.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 11:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But you have to have the debate.
Except... you don't.
Quote:

It's a dead issue and should be dropped
Yanno ... forget about it.


---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 2:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
"But you have to have the debate."

Except... you don't.



Since your responses above indicate that you consider debate to be personal insults, mis-stating other's points, and refusing to respond to questions, I can see how you'd believe that. I can provide a list of quotes if you'd like.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:14 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But you have to have the debate. Calling someone a fool, stupid, ignorant or irrational when they don't agree with you isn't debate. Having a mind closed to any viewpoint but your own isn't debate. Hyperbole isn't debate.



Again, I agree. But neither is accusing critics of 'America hating'. I hate torture, and the fact that our leaders have embraced it, and even now refuse to fully denounce it, makes them illegitimate in my eyes.

Quote:

...rehashing waterboarding again and again doesn't really further that idea. You got the best resolution that's going to happen. It's a dead issue and should be dropped while you go on to new concerns.



I disagree. I'm not willing to settle for the half-assed, equivocating responses that have dribbled out of the white house. And I want to make sure that whoever moves in next gets the picture loud and clear.

I'm not convinced that's yet happened. Given the way our elections are run, given the compromised integrity of corporate media, given the deeply entrenched nature of party/machine politics - I'm not convinced either candidate will produce any change beyond the Hallmark cards speeches we'll hear in the campaign.

The only way real change will happen is by holding their feet to the fire and making it abundantly clear that we've had enough. If that discomfits the fragile egos of so-called 'patriots', so much the better.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:29 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But you have to have the debate. Calling someone a fool, stupid, ignorant or irrational when they don't agree with you isn't debate. Having a mind closed to any viewpoint but your own isn't debate. Hyperbole isn't debate.



Again, I agree. But neither is accusing critics of 'America hating'. I hate torture, and the fact that our leaders have embraced it, and even now refuse to fully denounce it, makes them illegitimate in my eyes.

Quote:

...rehashing waterboarding again and again doesn't really further that idea. You got the best resolution that's going to happen. It's a dead issue and should be dropped while you go on to new concerns.



I disagree. I'm not willing to settle for the half-assed, equivocating responses that have dribbled out of the white house. And I want to make sure that whoever moves in next gets the picture loud and clear.

I'm not convinced that's yet happened. Given the way our elections are run, given the compromised integrity of corporate media, given the deeply entrenched nature of party/machine politics - I'm not convinced either candidate will produce any change beyond the Hallmark cards speeches we'll hear in the campaign.

The only way real change will happen is by holding their feet to the fire and making it abundantly clear that we've had enough. If that discomfits the fragile egos of so-called 'patriots', so much the better.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



Seems to me war crimes usually end in a trial not at a election....



Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:29 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Since your responses above indicate that you consider debate to be personal insults, mis-stating other's points, and refusing to respond to questions, I can see how you'd believe that. I can provide a list of quotes if you'd like.


I can provide one on you too, dude. On this board, you and Finn are the true gods of the Holy Strawman. Hate an official and you hate America. Denouncing a policy means you want violent anarchy.

Excuse me, I just discovered a hangnail, and must now cut off my foot.

Disgruntled Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The only way real change will happen is by holding their feet to the fire and making it abundantly clear that we've had enough.

Why stop there ?

I mean, if you feed em all the way in at least the bone ash could be useful as fertilizer for my white roses, in which case they'd be SOME positive use for the lowlife bastards.

The French had *their* answer to wannabe global dominion aristrocrat types who thought they were "better than", and that example put paid to a lot of that shit for a long, long time.

I am of the opinion that "We the People" need a similar example to reign in that shit over here.


Who's bloody with me?!

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Since your responses above indicate that you consider debate to be personal insults, mis-stating other's points, and refusing to respond to questions, I can see how you'd believe that. I can provide a list of quotes if you'd like.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Sure, fine, whatever!

Just stop calling me an America-hater, 'kay?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
I disagree. I'm not willing to settle for the half-assed, equivocating responses that have dribbled out of the white house. And I want to make sure that whoever moves in next gets the picture loud and clear.



Okay. Just remember that there are a lot of other people out there who want the White House to get their (different) message loud and clear, and that you may not end up getting exactly what you want. You should be ready for that.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Seems to me war crimes usually end in a trial not at a election....



You start with an indictment. As noted above, it's all in the rules.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Just stop calling me an America-hater, 'kay?



Okay, just a bad student of forensics.

BTW and completely off-topic, have you read Wrestling With the Angel of Democracy: On Being an American Citizen by Susan Griffin? I bet you'd like it.

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-297-2.cfm

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 8:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SO, where are those quotes, Geezer?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 8:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Here's one you'll like, Geezer:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/10/62-knowing-whats-best-for-p
oor-people
/

Pretty good stuff...

Funny is funny Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 8:24 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay. Just remember that there are a lot of other people out there who want the White House to get their (different) message loud and clear, and that you may not end up getting exactly what you want. You should be ready for that.



Yup. That's exactly why it's so important to speak your piece. What's your point exactly? Awhile ago you were saying we ought to sit down and shut up...

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Yup. That's exactly why it's so important to speak your piece. What's your point exactly? Awhile ago you were saying we ought to sit down and shut up...



Nope. That was Siggy and Chris wanting me to sit down and shut up. I was just suggesting that your outrage might be better used on something current, rather than rehashing old stuff.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:39 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
SO, where are those quotes, Geezer?



Since you ask, here's a few from this thread:

"This is a new low for you too, Geezer. How did you manage to rationalize your way into such a pit of manure?"

"BDN - Nodissentingopinionsallowedisall?
SignyM - As if we could shut Geezer up. Or you too, forthatmatterisall."

"Khyron, what is is that you are trying to deny by blotting out the obvious and insisting that waterboarding is at most an emotional issue?"

"AFA what Geezer thinks? Geezer nitpicks, cavils, and criticizes from the sidelines but has no courage of conviction. Don't even bother to ask."

"Now, you can tell me that's not what that means "to you", but the point of communication is to use words for their effect on others."

"And Geezer even avows to that, and others sagely nod their heads... "Yes, yes... I can see how terrorizing people with a few examples will make it easier for us in the end."

"Wow, talk about finely parsed. Never let it be said that Geezer would plainly endorse what he so clearly excuses and defends. I guess it depends on what the definition of "is" is, huh?"

" Basically, afa geezer is concerned you're just supposed to shut up about it, because whether you protested the Vietnam war and its excesses then (Kennedy) or whether you protest the Iraq war now, it's all called "hating America".

In the future, he'll use our horrors in Iraq to excuse some future horror, and if you haven't protested that he'll ask: "Is it just because you don't like XXX as much as you did Bush?" And if you HAVE protested our misdeeds he'll just say that you "hate America"."

"Hey Sarge, welcome to Geezerland. It's nice to see someone else experiencing Geezer's "intellectual honesty" for a change."

It's interesting to note that you don't often insult people directly, but instead do it in little asides.










"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BULLSHIT GEEZER! Do you HAVE to strawman every single friggin' thing???

I was simply re-stating your point. Shall I quote you?

Quote:

It's interesting to note that you don't often insult people directly, but instead do it in little asides.
I bow to the master.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:48 AM

MIIKE


does this have to go on forever man its legalised torture if its legal it must be good for the terrorists

im just going out,i may be some time

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:09 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by miike:
does this have to go on forever man its legalised torture B]



Are you referring to the thread?






SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:23 AM

MIIKE


no the incessent back and forth like a bad game of tennis with neither side conceeding an inch to the other side. i mean everyone knows water boarding is torture and the us has leagalised the use of water boarding ergo the us instigates a legal form of torture

im just going out,i may be some time

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I don't disagree, but does that disqualify it from being psychological torture? The 'torture' part of it is still the psychological part.

I'm not sure why there's such a strong reaction against waterboarding being seen as primarily psychological torture. Calling it psychological torture doesn't downgrade it or 'make it more acceptable' in any way, it's just, in my opinion, a more accurate description of the effects this form of torture has.

Many other forms of torture mentioned here are based around inducing physical pain, which may or may not leave marks on the body. Waterboarding is different, and this makes it seem ambiguous to many people and not clearly-defined 'torture'. Of course, it is torture, just not the type that's based on physical pain.



Been out of town for a few days, so I haven't had a chance to weigh in 'til now, and I haven't read the entire thread just yet, but I wanted to clarify something.

"Eric" pointed out that Hitchens knew full well that it was all a staged bit, and he was in no danger. And still, he felt like he was drowning. Which is my point: The FEAR part of the torture process called waterboarding IS psychological, but the actual DROWNING part of it is PHYSICAL. Of course, no one is telling the real torture victims beforehand that they're only going to "pretend" to drown them, so for all they know, they really ARE being drowned and killed.

Waterboarding CAN result in death, if the perpetrator of it misjudges or miscalculates just a little bit. Put it this way: If I put you up against a padded wall and secured you there, and then starting firing live bullets just a couple inches from your head, and I didn't tell you I wasn't going to shoot you in the head (quite the opposite, in fact - I tell you I *AM* going to shoot you in the head)... say I do all these things, and I start firing - all you can see is me and the rifle aiming at your head - and I *DON'T* kill you - did I torture you? There aren't any marks, so I must not have.

Torture isn't just about putting someone in extreme physical danger; it's putting someone into a state where they FEAR they are in extreme danger of dying. It's physical AND psychological, at the same time.

Let's not torture people. We've still got people in the world who would be more than happy to torture people for us, and still leave us at least a semblance of plausible deniability. I'd vastly prefer that we could at least maintain the illusion of taking the moral high road...




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:00 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... and still leave us at least a semblance of plausible deniability. I'd vastly prefer that we could at least maintain the illusion of taking the moral high road...



... and honestly, hypocritical though it may sound, that's what I'm more concerned about than whether torture is actually going on.

Defenders of the policy commonly concoct extreme scenarios (the old ticking bomb saw) to justify torture. And the thing is, I don't really have a huge problem with that. (I still think it's unjustified, but at least there's an argument to be made.) If that's all was going on, if it was only being used in extreme circumstances, to get information that would avert otherwise imminent disaster, I wouldn't be kicking up a fuss. In fact, I likely wouldn't even know about it.

But that's not how they're using it. They're using it as an instrument of terror. Otherwise we wouldn't even know about. If it was truly merely a tool for interrogation, it would be well within their power to keep it a secret, thus avoiding all the current controversy. Of course, that's not ALL it's being used for. More than anything, it's being used as a threat, a pathetic display of insecure bravado.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I suspect that a lot of the people who believe the US has lost its moral standing in the world due to the few reported instances of waterboarding - and due to the fact that we don't immediately repudiate and ban any aggressinve interrogation methods - probably didn't have too good an opinion of America's moral standing in the first place. If we did say we're sorry and wouldn't ever do it again, they wouldn't believe it anyway. Even if we'd never done it, those folks would believe we did.



Likewise, I could point out that there are SOME here who so fervently believe that this country is so utterly incapable of doing any wrong that they will, even now, insist that torture isn't torture, and therefore "we don't torture." And no matter how many times you point out that we do and did, and still continue to do so, they'll insist that (a) no we didn't, and (b) if we did, then it wasn't torture, because we don't torture. If WE do it, then it is, by definition, NOT torture, because we're the deciders!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Geezer, you said we "stuck a toe in, and didn't find it to our liking" and this will keep us from trying it again, at least for a while. I maintain that to really make that lesson stick, at least for a while, you need to put some of the perps on trial for their crimes. It's not like you can just give them a freebie and they'll know better next time. You punish them, severely, and then OTHERS will know better BEFORE there's a next time.

Or, as you put it, you put the fear of what could happen to them into their heads, and that's more effective than what you were threatening to do in the first place.

I'll stop beating this dead horse when those who codified and approved of torture as official US policy are rotting in their prison cells. I'll lay off when those who condoned torture and dismissed the Geneva Conventions as "quaint" are themselves tortured and denied legal representation and humane treatment. They are, after all, non-uniformed enemy combatants!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 12:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh.. Mikey ?

Yes, let's talk about those pesky Treaties...

WHICH WE SIGNED, yes ?

US Constitution.

Article VI.


All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.


In short, a signed Treaty is equal in power and authority to the US Constitution itself, and outright rejection or defiance thereof is an impeachment offense.

PERIOD.

Lotta folk don't seem to realize this.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention

(Article 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

(Article 32.): "A protected person/s shall not have anything done to them of such a character as to cause physical suffering or extermination ... the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment".

We SIGNED it, breaking this accord is equivalent to a Constitutional breach, and is therefore not only an impeachable offense, but constitutes gross misconduct of a criminal and treasonous* nature.

I don't think I can make it any clearer than that WHY I, personally, am howling for their heads - it has naught to do with morality as far as I am concerned but rather violation of their Oath to uphold the Constitution, a blatant, public, obvious violation at that, which cannot be denied.

Impeachment, Perjury, Gross misconduct and Negligence, whatever you wanna call it, this is fully sufficient cause to remove them from office immediately, and I don't see it happenin.

Ergo, I am pissed, cause at said point, the entire document is then meaningless.
And remember, I served too, I took the Oath, and unlike these pissants, I took it fucking SERIOUSLY, even if I believe the document itself flawed.

"Against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic..."

-Frem
*(Although it misses the legal defination specifically of Treason, as it is an offense against our own people rather than service and comfort to the enemy)

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:06 PM

CITIZEN


The argument that was made was that the detainees aren't covered by the geneva convention.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
That was Siggy and Chris wanting me to sit down and shut up.

Oh, shut up Geezer- that's not true!!!




Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:57 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Geezer, you said we "stuck a toe in, and didn't find it to our liking" and this will keep us from trying it again, at least for a while. I maintain that to really make that lesson stick, at least for a while, you need to put some of the perps on trial for their crimes. It's not like you can just give them a freebie and they'll know better next time. You punish them, severely, and then OTHERS will know better BEFORE there's a next time.



Absolutely. That's within the rules that we, the people, agree to. Now all you got to do is find somebody in a position to do so - a grand jury, a special prosecutor, an internationl criminal court, etc. - who'll indict them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 2:01 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, shut up Geezer- that's not true!!!



Well, OK. You never told me to shut up until now. You just wanted me to retract somebody else's statement.

"You made yourself sound like a genuine fool there, please retract it, okay?"





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 2:11 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
That was Siggy and Chris wanting me to sit down and shut up.

Oh, shut up Geezer- that's not true!!!




I obviously did not make that funny funny enough....



No comedianisall

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 2:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

And remember, I served too, I took the Oath, and unlike these pissants, I took it fucking SERIOUSLY, even if I believe the document itself flawed.



I don't think it's been said often enough, or by enough of us, but for ALL of you who've served, or still are serving, a heartfelt "THANK YOU" for your service to your country.

We might not all agree on some of the whys and wherefores, but we definitely do appreciate your service.

And yes, the White House has tried to make the distinction that "enemy combatants" aren't due the treatment that others are under the terms of the Geneva Convention. And I could just as reasonably make the argument that neither are politicians afforded those "luxuries". It's a slippery slope, because by our own admission, spies are NOT covered, which is why 'Rappo says "don't get caught" - but should also add "don't get outed by the White House" just to be safe...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:50 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
The argument that was made was that the detainees aren't covered by the geneva convention.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.




And if this is a grey area, or a place where the times requires the convention to evolve, perhaps a convention of the signatory's should sit down and have a vote on the actions of the United States.


But since the US appears to reject anybody, the UN, the ICC, etc having any standing to question its activity's that places the US above the law and that would make any law meaningless.



Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:06 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I don't think it's been said often enough, or by enough of us, but for ALL of you who've served, or still are serving, a heartfelt "THANK YOU" for your service to your country.



You're welcome.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:17 PM

SERGEANTX


Where'd you serve, Geezer?


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 6:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The argument that was made was that the detainees aren't covered by the geneva convention.

Third Convention, Article Four is pretty explict that they are - I cite the Celebici Judgment as proof that there is no intermediate status.

If they are simple criminals, we hand em over to local law enforcement, but if WE detain them, they are prisoners of war, the very act of military detention clearly acknowledges them as such.

It's pretty cut and dried, and the fact that we are using military tribunals just adds weight to the case, since we HAVE no civil jurisdiction save extradition, in someone elses country.

You really have to do some bizarre mental contortions to come up with any other answer.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 6:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

You really have to do some bizarre mental contortions to come up with any other answer.



Sadly, we have an administration that is well-versed in just such bizarre mental contortions. :(

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:10 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Third Convention, Article Four is pretty explict that they are - I cite the Celebici Judgment as proof that there is no intermediate status.

If they are simple criminals, we hand em over to local law enforcement, but if WE detain them, they are prisoners of war, the very act of military detention clearly acknowledges them as such.

It's pretty cut and dried, and the fact that we are using military tribunals just adds weight to the case, since we HAVE no civil jurisdiction save extradition, in someone elses country.

You really have to do some bizarre mental contortions to come up with any other answer.

I don't necessarily disagree, what I think has been happening is the letter of the law has been used to defeat the purpose of the law, but there are exceptions to the Geneva Conventions. A legal combatant is one who wears a uniform serving for a regular military, illegal combatants aren't technically covered, and neither are spies. Off hand, since the US never declared war on either Afghanistan or Iraq, I'm not even sure the Geneva Convention actually applies, strictly speaking.

Of course the US should as a signatory who presumably expects proper treatment for it's service personnel, should be adhering to the Geneva Convention, even if it's not strictly legally required to do so. It's like using a legal loop-hole to murder someone, then saying it's ok because it's strictly speaking, not illegal.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 7, 2008 1:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Where'd you serve, Geezer?



Vietnam. I was with MACV Team 3 in Hue working commo in 1971-72.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, July 7, 2008 2:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ouch, that had to suck somewhat, especially in 72 when things got flaky.

Good commo folk are downright critical for getting the job done, ESPECIALLY for relay calls to batteries you cannot reach directly, many was the time that a time on target or cover of smoke was all that saved some asses, from what I hear.

Before my time, though - I was trained to cold war plans centering on food supply to interdicted or surrounded units where aerial resupply was a bad idea, it was the perfect job for my too-independant mindset, as the truck used has a shielded ignition and no radio, due to that bastard Soviet widget that could track RF emissions.
(this later developed into Kolchuga)

Definately not a job for someone who needs their hand held by command, you see.

You basically get a truck full of rations, a map, some camo netting, rusty old M16 that might or might not work*, and "they were kinda-sorta somewhere around here last time we checked."

The only real defense you had was that nobody knew you were there, and while a deuce may look big up close, it's but a speck of dust in the eastern europe theatre.

-Frem
*- I left that thing under the seat and carried an officer .45, if you *needed* more than that, you were dead meat anyway.

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 5:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

There are things that go bump in the night. And we are the ones who bump back.




Seriously? You're the same jackass who was chiding all of us as "the TV generation", who expected our President to have super-powers, fly around the world in his cape, and stop 9/11 from ever happening - and YOU are the one trying to pass this shit off with a throwaway quote from HELLBOY ?!

That's some weak tea, right there...



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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