REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why not invade Burma?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 18:33
SHORT URL:
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Saturday, May 17, 2008 10:18 AM

CHRISISALL


http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1739053,00.html

Quote:

That's why it's time to consider a more serious option: invading Burma. Some observers, including former USAID director Andrew Natsios, have called on the U.S. to unilaterally begin air drops to the Burmese people regardless of what the junta says. The Bush Administration has so far rejected the idea — "I can't imagine us going in without the permission of the Myanmar government," Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday

WTF???
Well, I can't imagine invading a country that is relatively STABLE *coughIraq* 'just because'!!!!!!

The last angry Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 17, 2008 11:59 AM

REAVERMAN


Nothing to gain from it. Just a lot of poor people, and now, rubble. Not a very sound investment. Not to mention we don't have the resources for another invasion and occupation.

----------------------------
"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 12:03 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


I think the UN should get right on it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 12:08 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Reaverman:
Nothing to gain from it. Just a lot of poor people, and now, rubble. Not a very sound investment. Not to mention we don't have the resources for another invasion and occupation.

Come on now, sure there's no Oil, but shit loads of rice! And who doesn't like rice? a Billion Chinese people can't be wrong!

Besides, America's foreign image could really use another [strike]imperial war[/strike] action for freedom.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, May 17, 2008 12:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Reaverman:
Nothing to gain from it.

PSSST- the country has undiscovered oil in it, I'd heard it said...(someone tell Bush!)

Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 12:32 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Besides, America's foreign image could really use another [strike]imperial war[/strike] action for freedom.



Meh, Imperial conquest has its uses, when you can pull it off (which, as Iraq has clearly shown, Bush can't). But it's usually not very good PR, unless it's so low profile that it just flies under the global radar.

But really, that's moot. Normally, as an Imperialist, I would say "go for it!", but we just can't at the moment. Bush has decided to commit the majority of our frontline units, as well as a huge chunk of our reserves, to deposing a government we should have helped, and occupying a country just waiting to explode into civil war. Not the best time for opening up yet another front in the Third World War.

----------------------------
"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 12:39 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Reaverman:
Not the best time for opening up yet another front in the Third World War.

Oh, go on, it'll be really funny.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:18 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Oh, go on, it'll be really funny.


Cit, why do you hate Australia?

Patriotic Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:21 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cit, why do you hate Australia?

Fucking Koalas.

Though Kangaroo Pizza is nice.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:28 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Koalas.


Crap. I meant America. Always get 'em mixed up....Like with Saudi Arabia & Belgum, they're so similar....

Not on wall Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 2:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


They'd all end up voting Democrat anyways, what with the free Gov't handouts and all.


It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:42 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Yeah, better off giving the money to rich businessmen.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Yeah, better off giving the money to rich businessmen.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not a fact, it just isn't ."



Why not ? It's mostly their money in the first place, taken by the Government.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


No, mostly the workers money, taken by the owners.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 5:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
No, mostly the workers money, taken by the owners.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not a fact, it just isn't ."



No, mostly the people's money, taken by the Gov't. The Gov't doesn't OWN us at all.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:26 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
No, mostly the workers money, taken by the owners.


Thank you Karl Marx. Long live the Bolsheviks!

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Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:44 AM

WHODIED


It's the Banks' money. Everybody else merely borrows it temporarily, in a complex shell game of credit and debt, to stand as symbol for goods and services whose INTRINSIC value is inflated, subsidized, or moot.



--WhoDied


_______________________

There was a dollar eighty three in the cushions out there. That's perfectly good money just lying around.



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Sunday, May 18, 2008 12:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Gov't doesn't OWN us at all.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! AU, you come up with the good ones, LOL!!!!

isall

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Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:32 PM

PIRATECAT


Kinda like English troops in Ireland. Right. Oh don't say that. That's offensive to English people. America killed John Lennon. Another creep. Lets see how many times in the last century did Great Britain save western civilization. Hmmm left Africa in wonderful condition. England is full of puffs. The royal whores with muslim babies. They're just great. I can't wait till jolly ole england has that civil war with its imigrants. Please help America. Please send ships, food, and guns. KISS OFF BRITS LUV OBAMA.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:47 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
Kinda like English troops in Ireland. Right. Oh don't say that. That's offensive to English people. America killed John Lennon. Another creep. Lets see how many times in the last century did Great Britain save western civilization. Hmmm left Africa in wonderful condition. England is full of puffs. The royal whores with muslim babies. They're just great. I can't wait till jolly ole england has that civil war with its imigrants. Please help America. Please send ships, food, and guns. KISS OFF BRITS LUV OBAMA.

Hey, least we never needed the French to win a war for us.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Hey, least we never needed the French to win a war for us.


*winces*

Chrisisall

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:44 AM

HAVOCMAN


Needed the French? LMAO - does anyone really believe that the colonies won their freedom as a result of French assistance? The French may have sped things up a bit, but that's it. We'd have beaten the Brits eventually on our own. The logistics of the whole thing would have just worn the Brits down. Too bad it had to come to war at all.

Burma is a side show because that region of the globe is not critical to global economics.

Stabilization of the global economy is why the U.S. is involved so deeply in the Middle East region of the globe. You all knew that ... right?

Although the situation in Iraq is pretty rough now, things there are certainly improving ... they can only get better, hmmmm.

Give things in Iraq a few years - it'll all shake out for the best.

As for the UN ... just stay away, please.


Let's be Bad Guys...

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Come on now, sure there's no Oil, but shit loads of rice!


I note for the record that there is oil. The former Burma Oil Company was a major producer but in the decades since the end of colonialism Burma's oil and rubber exports have dropped dramtically due to the lack of infrastructure and more easily accessable supplies from the Middle East (oil) and South America (rubber).

Invading Burma and restoring those industries would be worthwhile.

Also Naval and Air Force bases in Burma would support ongoing operation in the Gulf as well as be perfectly placed to support operations against China.

A strong military force in the region would also suppress the local pirates that plague the narrow shipping lanes in the region.

H

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:

Burma is a side show because that region of the globe is not critical to global economics.

But...this country's government cares deeply about people...
Quote:




Give things in Iraq a few years - it'll all shake out for the best.


Tell that to the dead (sorry, nix that), husband-less & parent-less peeps over there. If you can manage one every couple hours it would only take a year.

*sigh*Chrisisall

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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Invading Burma and restoring those industries would be worthwhile.


I take that as a go-ahead.
I will alert the usual suspects.

Gung-Ho Chrisisall

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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:25 AM

HAVOCMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:

Give things in Iraq a few years - it'll all shake out for the best.


Tell that to the dead (sorry, nix that), husband-less & parent-less peeps over there. If you can manage one every couple hours it would only take a year.



Saddam would have plunged the region into complete chaos & war ... again and AGAIN. How many died in the Iran/Iraq war? How many Iraqi citizens were murderd at his hands over the past few decades? How many Israeli citizens did he murder indirectly by paying off the families of Palestinian terrorists? The guy had to go.

With us so heavily involved in the region, these things have come to an end. So, while the loss of life during OIL/OIF - any life - is tragic, in the long run the US has done, and will continue to do, the right thing over there ... to the best of our ability. We ain't perfect, but we are wayyyyy better 'n most.

Besides - who else is gonna handle the job at this point? The UN?

Let's be Bad Guys...

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:16 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:
Needed the French? LMAO - does anyone really believe that the colonies won their freedom as a result of French assistance? The French may have sped things up a bit, but that's it. We'd have beaten the Brits eventually on our own. The logistics of the whole thing would have just worn the Brits down. Too bad it had to come to war at all.

Uhuh. The British of course didn't need the Americans in World War Two. They'd already beaten the Nazi War Machine at the Battle of Britain, and Hitler had turned his eyes toward Russia. Eventually Russia would have worn down the Nazis, and British and Commonwealth troops would still have reached a point of being able to invade France. It would have just taken longer.
Quote:

Although the situation in Iraq is pretty rough now, things there are certainly improving ... they can only get better, hmmmm.
Improving? Really?
Quote:

Give things in Iraq a few years - it'll all shake out for the best.
Make that a few decades.
Quote:

As for the UN ... just stay away, please.
Funnily enough, I gather that's what the Iraqis are saying about the US.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Hey, least we never needed the French to win a war for us.



Ouch. Truth hurts. :)

Good call, since not many Americans seem to remember that...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:
Saddam would have plunged the region into complete chaos & war ... again and AGAIN.

This would be the Iraq that could barely feed its own people, and was being bombed with impunity by UN forces, that same Iraq yeah?
Quote:

How many died in the Iran/Iraq war?
This would be the war America supported, both materially and politically I take it.
Quote:

How many Iraqi citizens were murderd at his hands over the past few decades?
If you break it down, a lot less than are now dying as the result of the US led invasion.
Quote:

With us so heavily involved in the region, these things have come to an end.
If you screw your eyes up real tight and look the other way...
Quote:

Besides - who else is gonna handle the job at this point? The UN?
The UN was handling it, but now? The US sure as hell isn't doing much of a job.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:
Needed the French? LMAO - does anyone really believe that the colonies won their freedom as a result of French assistance? The French may have sped things up a bit, but that's it. We'd have beaten the Brits eventually on our own. The logistics of the whole thing would have just worn the Brits down. Too bad it had to come to war at all.

Burma is a side show because that region of the globe is not critical to global economics.

Stabilization of the global economy is why the U.S. is involved so deeply in the Middle East region of the globe. You all knew that ... right?

Although the situation in Iraq is pretty rough now, things there are certainly improving ... they can only get better, hmmmm.

Give things in Iraq a few years - it'll all shake out for the best.

As for the UN ... just stay away, please.


Let's be Bad Guys...



1) Yes, we absolutely needed the French. Without the influx of French weapons and money, our revolution would have collapsed at a critical time. The "French Connection", as it were, was so crucial and so major that it led directly to the collapse of the French monarchy within 15 years.

2) That region of the globe isn't critical to global economics? Try telling that to China, Hong Kong, the Phillipines, Viet Nam, et al. I think that region of the globe just *MIGHT* be a little important to global economics...

3) Stabilization of the global economy... Oh yeah, THAT'S why we invaded Iraq. I'd forgotten that, until you reminded me. I clearly remember when Bush stood before the nation and said that Saddam had WMD, and that those would destabilize the global economy, and that he was a murderous monster who must be stopped before he destabilized the global economy, or about how the War On Terror was really the War To Stabilize The Global Economy...

4) Things can only get better in Iraq, huh? Guess that puts to lie Cheney's claim about how "swimmingly" things are going there NOW, right? And yes, he did use the word "swimmingly".
To say that things can only get better implies that you think things are horribly wrong there right now, which means you think we've utterly fucked the place up with our invasion and occupation, right?



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Hate to say it, but we did need French assistance during the Revolution. They had ships and they had money. We didn't have either.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:


Saddam would have plunged the region into complete chaos & war

So glad BushCo. could step in with immediate peace & stability then....

Biped.

Chrisisall

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Biped.


That's an insult to bipeds everywhere! You're only *assuming* that he's capable of walking upright, and isn't a complete knuckledragger... ;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:22 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:


Saddam would have plunged the region into complete chaos & war

So glad BushCo. could step in with immediate peace & stability then....

Biped.



It was good training for Katrina. They vastly improved upon controlling looting, with a little help from the flooding.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Invading Burma and restoring those industries would be worthwhile.

Also Naval and Air Force bases in Burma would support ongoing operation in the Gulf as well as be perfectly placed to support operations against China.



Well, good to know you're on board with another invasion. How... expected of you. And what could possibly go wrong? Historically, our military plans in South Asia have gone so well!

And why would we need any new air and naval bases in the area to support our operations in the Gulf? Isn't that one already over? Seems I heard somewhere it'd be over in a matter of days, maybe weeks, doubtfully months... So by the time we invade, overthrow, occupy, quell any resistance, and THEN build and staff our bases (say, 15 years or so from now), THEN we'll be able to give some support to our operations in the Gulf, huh?

And what exactly are you planning on doing with China, militarily speaking, that would involve us needing bases in the area? And don't we already have bases in the area, in Diego Garcia, the Phillipines, Japan (Okinawa, for one), Guam, etc.

Face it: even though the people of Myanmar may despise their government, it doesn't mean they want OUR government in its place. The junta might be assholes, but they're THEIR assholes! It's sort of along the lines of "I can call my sister a slut, but if you call her a slut, there's gonna be a fight." They realize they have problems, but they don't necessarily want outside intervention in those problems; they'd prefer to handle them themselves, possibly with our support, but not our direct intervention.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Hate to say it, but we did need French assistance during the Revolution. They had ships and they had money. We didn't have either.



Bingo. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either (a) woefully misinformed, (b) willfully ignorant of history, or (c) simply looking for a reason to discount anything and everything the French have ever done, for the sole reason of making themselves feel better about hating the French.

I have no great love for them... BUT - I'll *always* give them the benefit of the doubt, because without their help when we needed it most, America simply wouldn't have happened.

Don't think for a moment that France did anything for us out of pure altruism, though; they did it with the sole purpose of destabilizing the British Empire and weakening England. And it worked, but it weakened France's ruling class more, and the success of the American Revolution in turn got French peasants thinking that maybe, just MAYBE, they could have a taste of liberty for themselves.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Saddam would have plunged the region into complete chaos & war ... again and AGAIN.


So the US had to beat him to it, and show Iraqis how to REALLY plunge headlong into war...

Quote:

How many died in the Iran/Iraq war? How many Iraqi citizens were murderd at his hands over the past few decades?


Fewer than the number of Iraqis who've been murdered since the US-led invasion. And before you say that WE didn't murder them, remember that WE were the ones who removed all checks, and allowed the Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence to escalate to unprecedented levels. So yes, those deaths are on our heads.

Quote:

How many Israeli citizens did he murder indirectly by paying off the families of Palestinian terrorists?



I could just as easily ask how many Palestinians "we" murdered indirectly by paying off Israeli "terrorists", so that argument has no real merit.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:53 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Enter RWED at your own risk for sure. You never know when you will be put upon by a rabid pack of Hyenas.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:54 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I could just as easily ask how many Palestinians "we" murdered indirectly by paying off Israeli "terrorists", so that argument has no real merit.

The death ration runs about 3 Palestinians per Israeli I believe.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 8:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:
How many Iraqi citizens were murderd at his hands over the past few decades?


The US didn't invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons. Only when WMD's were NOT found did that become a "reason." Before we invaded, no one ('cept exiles) cared squat about what Hussein did to his people.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 8:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Enter RWED at your own risk for sure. You never know when you will be put upon by a rabid pack of Hyenas.

RAAAWWWWGHHHHH!! *cHoMp*

HaHaaHhahhahah!!!!

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Monday, May 19, 2008 10:49 AM

HAVOCMAN


Let's see - dog pile and personal insults. Why am I not surprised?

I'll try hitting all the big points, but I may miss a few...

Possible UN or US invasion of Burma ... I don't support that. I doubt it will happen.

The French ... Their assistance during the American Rev War was important, but not necessary. The colonies would have eventually become independent. It would have taken longer - as I mentioned in my first post in this thread. Maybe alot longer. Glad it went the way it did.

Iraq ... What we are doing in Iraq now is working. American, coalition and Iraqi casualties are trending downward. The level of IED activity is down. The Iraqi gov is exercising control over more & more of the nation. Sunni & Shia are working together with IA forces against terrorist threats. This is all true. Check around. It's easy to find the truth if you look a little - I won't do your research for you.

Quote:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many died in the Iran/Iraq war? How many Iraqi citizens were murdered at his hands over the past few decades?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fewer than the number of Iraqis who've been murdered since the US-led invasion.



Your statements about the casualty levels are simply incorrect. The number for the Iran/Iraq war is generally quoted at 1 to 1.5 million. The numbers for the current conflict are far below that - 90K Iraqi deaths is the number that is generally accepted.

Equating Israeli defense of their nation with Palestinian terrorist attacks is beneath further comment.

Also - Just find a Soldier or Marine and ask them how things are going in Iraq. I'll tell you what you'll hear ... It's a crappy job that they are doing, but the situation now is much improved over their last deployment. Do they think things are headed in the right direction now? YES. Do they wish they were home instead? You bet! Are they on good terms with the overwhelming majority of Iraqi folks? Yep! Are the Good Guys winning? Yep (The Good Guys are us, by the way.)

As for going in the first place ... in retrospect, we should have gone in harder and with more. We should not have completely disbanded the Iraqi Army. We should not have De-Bathified the nation so rapidly. The intelligence organizations of every nation involved were convinced that Hussein had WMD's. All were concerned that he would sell or give them away to Jihadists...that would be bad. So, we went. To risk otherwise could have been catastrophic.

As for the folks doing the name calling - that sort of thing doesn't help your position in any way.

It's clear that I'm not going to change any minds here. It's also clear that I'm in the overwhelming minority. What should also be clear is that I'm not about to alter my positions on anything.

It's not easy being right all the time...and I speak from experience.

So, lets just agree to disagree. This will be my last post in this thread.



Let's be Bad Guys...

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Monday, May 19, 2008 11:43 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:
Let's see - dog pile and personal insults. Why am I not surprised?

You said something some people don't agree with, those people disagreed with you, if you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post. Calling it a 'dog-pile' is emotive crap.
Quote:

The French ... Their assistance during the American Rev War was important, but not necessary. The colonies would have eventually become independent. It would have taken longer - as I mentioned in my first post in this thread. Maybe alot longer. Glad it went the way it did.
If you say so. Britain didn't need America's help during the Second World War either, it would have just taken longer, maybe a lot longer.
Quote:

Iraq ... What we are doing in Iraq now is working. American, coalition and Iraqi casualties are trending downward.
Actually they aren't, this is trotted out every single time, and there's no evidence to support it. In fact the evidence is that deaths are increasing.
Quote:

The level of IED activity is down. The Iraqi gov is exercising control over more & more of the nation.
Are you making this up as you go along?
Quote:

Sunni & Shia are working together with IA forces against terrorist threats. This is all true. Check around. It's easy to find the truth if you look a little - I won't do your research for you.
Ahh, I see the problem. We're talking about the Iraq in reality, not the one from "Avalon and other Fairytale nations". Really, I have no idea where you're getting this stuff, I have looked for information, and nothing I've seen even remotely supports this.
Quote:

Your statements about the casualty levels are simply incorrect. The number for the Iran/Iraq war is generally quoted at 1 to 1.5 million. The numbers for the current conflict are far below that - 90K Iraqi deaths is the number that is generally accepted.
Yeah, you can't really support a US Anti-Iraq stance off the back of actions taken with the full material and political support of the US. The US didn't give a shit about those deaths when they happened, you can't drag them up now.
Quote:

Equating Israeli defense of their nation with Palestinian terrorist attacks is beneath further comment.
Simplifying the whole situation down to "Israeli good, Palestinian bad" should be beneath further comment.
Quote:

Also - Just find a Soldier or Marine and ask them how things are going in Iraq. I'll tell you what you'll hear ... It's a crappy job that they are doing, but the situation now is much improved over their last deployment. Do they think things are headed in the right direction now? YES. Do they wish they were home instead? You bet! Are they on good terms with the overwhelming majority of Iraqi folks? Yep! Are the Good Guys winning? Yep (The Good Guys are us, by the way.)
Or we could really ask soldiers, rather than hand waving and insultingly saying "the soldiers agree with me, so there!"
Quote:

My name is Donald Hudson Jr. I have been serving our country’s military actively for the last three years. I am currently deployed to Baghdad on Forward Operating Base Loyalty, where I have been for the last four and a half months.

I came here as part of the first wave of this so called "troop surge", but so far it has effectively done nothing to quell insurgent violence. I have seen the rise in violence between the Sunni and Shiite. This country is in the middle of a civil war that has been on going since the seventh century.

Why are we here when this country still to date does not want us here? Why does our president’s personal agenda consume him so much, that he can not pay attention to what is really going on here?

Let me tell you a story. On May 10, I was out on a convoy mission to move barriers from a market to a joint security station. It was no different from any other night, except the improvised explosive device that hit our convoy this time, actually pierced through the armor of one of our trucks. The truck was immediately engulfed in flames, the driver lost control and wrecked the truck into one of the buildings lining the street. I was the driver of the lead truck in our convoy; the fifth out of six was the one that got hit. All I could hear over the radio was a friend from the sixth truck screaming that the fifth truck was burning up real bad, and that they needed fire extinguishers real bad. So I turned my truck around and drove through concrete barriers to get to the burning truck as quickly as I could. I stopped 30 meters short of the burning truck, got out and ripped my fire extinguisher out of its holder, and ran to the truck. I ran past another friend of mine on the way to the burning truck, he was screaming something but I could not make it out. I opened the driver’s door to the truck and was immediately overcome by the flames. I sprayed the extinguisher into the door, and then I saw my roommate’s leg. He was the gunner of that truck. His leg was across the driver’s seat that was on fire and the rest of his body was further in the truck. My fire extinguisher died and I climbed into the truck to attempt to save him. I got to where his head was, in the back passenger-side seat. I grabbed his shoulders and attempted to pull him from the truck out the driver’s door. I finally got him out of the truck head first. His face had been badly burned. His leg was horribly wounded. We placed him on a spine board and did our best to attempt "Buddy Aid". We heard him trying to gasp for air. He had a pulse and was breathing, but was not responsive. He was placed into a truck and rushed to the "Green Zone", where he died within the hour. His name was Michael K. Frank. He was 36 years old. He was a great friend of mine and a mentor to most of us younger soldiers here.

Now I am still here in this country wondering why, and having to pick up the pieces of what is left of my friend in our room. I would just like to know what is the true reason we are here? This country poses no threat to our own. So why must we waste the lives of good men on a country that does not give a damn about itself? Most of my friends here share my views, but do not have the courage to say anything.


http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&bac
kgroundid=182

Quote:

The intelligence organizations of every nation involved were convinced that Hussein had WMD's.
No, they weren't. British intelligence effectively disowned the dossiers.
Quote:

It's clear that I'm not going to change any minds here. It's also clear that I'm in the overwhelming minority. What should also be clear is that I'm not about to alter my positions on anything.
Well, we're a thinking lot, we tend not to be swayed by stuff some guy just made up.
Quote:

It's not easy being right all the time...and I speak from experience.
I'm sure it gets easier if you just assume you're right without evidence.
Quote:

So, lets just agree to disagree.
you don't actually get to say that after a diatribe.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 11:46 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Because Burma, like Iowa and Belgium, does not exist!



I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Monday, May 19, 2008 11:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HavocMan:

As for going in the first place ... in retrospect, we should have gone in harder and with more.

The intelligence organizations of every nation involved were convinced that Hussein had WMD's.

So, we went. To risk otherwise could have been catastrophic.


I rarely do this, but here goes.

The following assessment is in regard to this issue only, and not to be taken as an overall judgement of every other facet of one's existence.

You're a frakkin' idiot.

Succinct Chrisisall

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Monday, May 19, 2008 12:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

90K Iraqi deaths is the number that is generally accepted.



Generally accepted by whom? Several reports have put those numbers quite a bit higher - as many as 600-650k Iraqi deaths.

Quote:


Equating Israeli defense of their nation with Palestinian terrorist attacks is beneath further comment.



Why is it "beneath comment"? Because the Israelis are "defending their nation" whereas the Palestinians no longer have a nation to defend, because it was taken away from them and given to the Israelis? If the Palestinians were "defending their nation", would it be less terrorism and more "freedom fighting"? One man's Contra is another man's death squad, y'know...

I'm not saying I *agree* with the Palestinians; I'm just saying that they just might have a legitimate beef, and no legitimate way to air that beef. It's part of how terrorists are made - you take away everything they have, and any form of redress for wrongs done to them, and then you act surprised when they decided they have nothing to lose but their lives, so they may as well make a statement by their death...

Quote:

Also - Just find a Soldier or Marine and ask them how things are going in Iraq. I'll tell you what you'll hear ... It's a crappy job that they are doing, but the situation now is much improved over their last deployment. Do they think things are headed in the right direction now? YES. Do they wish they were home instead? You bet! Are they on good terms with the overwhelming majority of Iraqi folks? Yep! Are the Good Guys winning? Yep (The Good Guys are us, by the way.)


I've talked to several, all of whom have told me that it's a clusterfuck from top to bottom, with no clear rules of engagement and no organized plan for dealing with anything.

Quote:

As for going in the first place ... in retrospect, we should have gone in harder and with more. We should not have completely disbanded the Iraqi Army. We should not have De-Bathified the nation so rapidly. The intelligence organizations of every nation involved were convinced that Hussein had WMD's. All were concerned that he would sell or give them away to Jihadists...that would be bad. So, we went. To risk otherwise could have been catastrophic.


Bullshit. That's just pure, unadulterated bullshit, and it's been spread far and wide by the same people who told you that Saddam had anything at all to do with 9/11. Saddam was far too greedy to "give them away", and he'd certainly never give them to "Jihadists" - he was far too secular for that! What most people (or at least most Republicans and Neo-Cons) can't figure out, to this day, is that Saddam and Osama are about as ideologically close to each other as Hitler and the Pope - they might both claim to believe in sort of the same god, but that's about the end of it. As people, they are essentially polar opposites. To put Saddam and the fundamentalist Muslims in the same room with each other would be like putting matter and anti-matter together - catastrophic results indeed!

And I love how many do-overs you want (not going in so soft, not dismantling the army, etc.), and then claim how it's not easy being right all the time. By my count, you've yet to be right even once - and even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

Quote:

The intelligence organizations of every nation involved were convinced that Hussein had WMD's.


Not true. Look into it; that's been debunked time and again. The only people who still believe it are, apparently, George W. Bush and those of his followers who still have their heads buried in the sand. Check into it - I'm not going to do your research for you.

Quote:

It's clear that I'm not going to change any minds here. It's also clear that I'm in the overwhelming minority. What should also be clear is that I'm not about to alter my positions on anything.


Well, at least we got THAT cleared up. And you know what they say about a closed mind, right?

Quote:

It's not easy being right all the time...and I speak from experience.


Ummmmm... Yeahhhhh. See above.

Quote:

So, lets just agree to disagree. This will be my last post in this thread.



Promise?



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 19, 2008 12:13 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What most people (or at least most Republicans and Neo-Cons) can't figure out, to this day, is that Saddam and Osama are about as ideologically close to each other as Hitler and the Pope - they might both claim to believe in sort of the same god, but that's about the end of it.

I think that Osama and Saddam were rather less close than Hitler and the ex-Hitler Youth Pope.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Don't think for a moment that France did anything for us out of pure altruism.

Maybe not then, but ask the question of where the Statue of Liberty came from...

As long as it's there, I tend to refrain from bashing the French so much.

-F

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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Don't think for a moment that France did anything for us out of pure altruism.

Maybe not then, but ask the question of where the Statue of Liberty came from...

As long as it's there, I tend to refrain from bashing the French so much.

-F



Oh, absolutely! For an awful lot of things, I tend to give the French a bit of a "free pass". Not with the whole Vichez France thing in WWII, or the Citroen 2CV, or the Renault "Le Car", but MOST things... :)




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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