REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

If Niska had only waterboarded Mal & Wash, would he have been a nicer fellow?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 21:49
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VIEWED: 2171
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Thursday, May 8, 2008 12:48 PM

CHRISISALL


Just askin'isall




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Thursday, May 8, 2008 12:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Just askin'isall






In your world, the U.S. is played by Niska, and the terrorist are played by Mal and Wash ?



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 12:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap, you really need to read this: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ to get some insight into your conditi ... personality.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


In your world, the U.S. is played by Niska, and the terrorist are played by Mal and Wash ?


I'm asking if waterboarding, since it usually requires no re-start of the heart during it's process, is too nice a thing to have done to Mal & Wash to get the viewers to believe Niska was truly a bad guy...seeing Mal & Wash choke & writhe & cut themselves on their restraints for hours, I'm postulating, might have seemed to soft...

Right?isall

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Rap, you really need to read this: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ to get some insight into your conditi ... personality.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."



No matter how hard you try, and it's clear that you're trying VERY hard, you won't be able to dismiss or explain away the Islamo-fascists wanting to take down Western civilization and desire to replace it w/ Sharia Law.

The more you ignore it, the bigger the threat.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ah yes, fear of the other in a dangerous world - it's in there too. You really should read it. Here it is again: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

And no, I don't dismiss them. I understand that terrorists are a very, very small group of people with (pre-Bush, anyway) very little support whose numbers would be reduced even further if the US would just stop fucking with their countries and economies. And who could be dealt with using normal international police work.

You, OTOH, are a quivering mass of incoherent fear whose brain is so consumed you have no room left for thought.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:28 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No matter how hard you try, and it's clear that you're trying VERY hard, you won't be able to dismiss or explain away the Islamo-fascists wanting to take down Western civilization and desire to replace it w/ Sharia Law.



Actually, the hard part is explaining is your eagerness to do it for them.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:29 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Just askin'isall

Probably.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Amazing.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:36 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Actually, the hard part is explaining is your eagerness to do it for them.


Well, hard for HIM to explain, I think you & I could do it QE.

isall

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


rue, it's not 'fear', it's simple recognition. The motive of these terrorist is religious based, and doesn't have one gorram thing to do w/ us 'messing with their economies '. The joke is that you think this is merely a 'police' matter, when it's far, FAR more involved than that.

You don't write a ticket for groups who attack a country's war ship, eg _ USS COLE. That is an act of war, and we would be best served to use what ever means necessary to fight this war.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No matter how hard you try, and it's clear that you're trying VERY hard, you won't be able to dismiss or explain away the Islamo-fascists wanting to take down Western civilization and desire to replace it w/ Sharia Law.



Actually, the hard part is explaining is your eagerness to do it for them.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock




That post makes absolutely no sense. Please try again, and this time, try some coherent thought before you type.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ah, then Rap, you'll appreciate this even though it was meant for Finn. It's a quote, which works very well for you at all times, and very well for Finn when he has to torture English to make himself right.

A filing cabinet or a computer can store quite inconsistent notions and never lose a minute of sleep over their contradiction. Similarly a high (authoritatian) can have all sorts of illogical, self-contradictory, and widely refuted ideas rattling around in various boxes in his brain, and never notice it.
So can everybody, of course ... But research reveals that authoritarian followers drive through life under the influence of impaired thinking a lot more than most people do, exhibiting sloppy reasoning, highly compartmentalized beliefs, double standards, hypocrisy, self-blindness, a profound ethnocentrism, and--to top it all off--a ferocious dogmatism that makes it unlikely anyone could ever change their minds with evidence or logic.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:45 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


In your way of thinking, you’re one of the most authoritarian thinkers on this board.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:47 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You really need to read the book, 'cause once again, you're torturing the words to be right.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:52 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
That is an act of war, and we would be best served to use what ever means necessary to fight this war.


Okey-dokey Your Operativeness.

You murder children when U HAVE to....

Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 2:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Somehow I missed this earlier post. But my post to Finn will work just as well in this case.

"The motive of these terrorist is religious based, and doesn't have one gorram thing to do w/ us 'messing with their economies '."

That whole thing about terrorists being religious fanatics and the like ... I take it all the studies which show that people who are being deprived in some way - economically, politically, socially etc - become the terrorists you speak of, while people who are not deprived do not - don't make a difference to your opinion ? That's terrorism's roots are injustice and inequality not religion ? No, because as the author of the book so accurately points out, authoritarians like you are immune to facts, logic, equitable standards, truth and honor, justice -- shall I throw the American way on top ?

You really do need to read that book.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:36 PM

KIRKULES


Niska wouldn't use water-boarding because it's not a horrific enough method to achieve his purpose. His idea was to maintain respect in the criminal comunity by showing how bad it would be for anyone that double-crossed him. I suspect he always tortured people in groups and allowed one to survive to spread the message.

You can see that his method works well in the number of Al qaeda captives that would rather spend the rest of their lives in Gitmo than be sent back to their home country where they would be tortured. That's one of the dilemmas we have is that if we extradite them they'll be tortured, and if we release them to a country where they'd be safe, they'll go back to their terrorist ways. One that we released a while back just killed himself in a suicide bombing in Iraq the other day.

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Niska wouldn't use water-boarding because it's not a horrific enough method to achieve his purpose."

Water-boarding WHEN ONLY THE BEST WILL DO - Pol Pot tested and approved (Pol Pot seal of approval © )

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:52 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
That post makes absolutely no sense. Please try again, and this time, try some coherent thought before you type.



I know you get confused reading my posts. And I'd like to help you out with that but if I dumbed things down to the point where you could understand them, well, I'd just start to sound like you.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 5:29 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Niska wouldn't use water-boarding because it's not a horrific enough method to achieve his purpose. His idea was to maintain respect in the criminal comunity by showing how bad it would be for anyone that double-crossed him. I suspect he always tortured people in groups and allowed one to survive to spread the message.

Yeah. The point of the show was to show the Niska was a real bad dude. If he’s going to torture someone he’s not going to use a kind of torture that low on the continuum. He’s going to inflict real pain and cause real damage. People like rue want to ignore the continuum, because it suits their particular political hatreds, but the continuum exists and everyone recognizes it. You’ll never see any character portrayed as a real bad dude, like Niska, using waterboarding - he’s always going to pull out the electrodes and the knives. The obvious answer to Chris’s question is “yes,” Niska would not have been even close to as bad a dude if he were using waterboarding - the sooner people grasp this the more reasonable their political views against torture will become. One does not have to agree with the use of waterboarding to understand that there is a world difference between it and what Niska would do.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 6:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


In your world, the U.S. is played by Niska, and the terrorist are played by Mal and Wash ?






Well, the U.S. in this instance is playing more the role of the Alliance. And yes, Mal & Wash would be considered terrorists. Think about it - they're outlaws, smugglers, thieves, and scavengers, and they live on the outskirts of society, and try to tear that society down. What would you have us believe they are?

The real question is, which side are YOU on? You sound like an Alliance guy to me... Hard to believe you'd even watch Firefly, much less enjoy it.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 6:02 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, the U.S. in this instance is playing more the role of the Alliance. And yes, Mal & Wash would be considered terrorists. Think about it - they're outlaws, smugglers, thieves, and scavengers, and they live on the outskirts of society, and try to tear that society down. What would you have us believe they are?

How would Mal and Wash be considered terrorists? You said it yourself. They are smugglers, thieves, scavengers, NOT terrorists.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 6:03 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I don't think waterboarding was nearly horiffic enough for Niska. I don't think anyone could actually appreciate how horrific waterboarding is unless they had it done to them, even in a safe setting. Niska was more about the Dee Snyder "Strangeland" treatment.

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
A filing cabinet or a computer can store quite inconsistent notions and never lose a minute of sleep over their contradiction. Similarly a high (authoritatian) can have all sorts of illogical, self-contradictory, and widely refuted ideas rattling around in various boxes in his brain, and never notice it.
So can everybody, of course ... But research reveals that authoritarian followers drive through life under the influence of impaired thinking a lot more than most people do, exhibiting sloppy reasoning, highly compartmentalized beliefs, double standards, hypocrisy, self-blindness, a profound ethnocentrism, and--to top it all off--a ferocious dogmatism that makes it unlikely anyone could ever change their minds with evidence or logic.



I'm not arguing with you on the direction this was going Rue, in fact I pretty much agree mostly, but you got a lot of nerve labling anybody with this type of shit when you turn around and do the exact same thing when it comes to things that scare you or that you believe fanatically in like forced inocculations for children, regardless of the parents wishes.

I don't care one little bit that you think it's the right thing to do or that you are endangering other people by refusing vaccinations based on religious or other personal beliefs. To me, your beliefs are based soley on FEAR, and your stance on that particular issue is NO different and NO less scary than Auraptor's authoritarian viewpoints regarding the shitstorm we're going to be bringing down on ourselves because of our constant meddling for the better part of a century.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 7:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Meh, they're welcome to *believe* whatever makes em happy, they got every right to do so.

But when they feel the pressing need to deprive others of that right by shoving their believes down the throat of others with fear, force, or legislation, that's where I draw the line, cause anyone attempting to deny others a right loses their own first, in my eyes - but on a personal scale, rather than social, cause otherwise you're talkin collective punishment which is, at it's root, the act of a tyranny.

S'why I care for neither end, cause the difference between leftwingnuts, rightwingnuts, and fanatic muslim extremists is about diddly, once you apply that standard to them - NONE of them respect YOUR rights, all they care about is their own, and be damned to anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Folks need to learn to live and let live, imop.

As for the rest, our interrogators are complete negligent incompetents, if I wanted to scare the living crap out of them, I would pyschologically mindfuck a couple of em to the point of catastrophic personality flux and then just let em go, it's not like we don't still have the MONARCH data to work with on how that is accomplished.

Round up about six of em, and totally break three of them mentally, and take your time, while giving the soft-shoe treatment to the other three, and just to confuse them, bunk them in pairs and randomly switch who bunks where.

Then let them all go at the same time, just drive em out a couple miles from a local town, blindfolded, so they think they're gonna be shot, put on on their knees, cock your weapons...

Then just get back in the truck and drive off.

And then just sit back and watch the secondary effects wig out the ones you didn't touch, and observe the wave of fear and terror created by their very presence in that society.

It's a lot like deliberately allowing routed troops to escape the line so they will pass through and destabilise an opponents reserve.

If were gonna play the role of bad guys, we could at LEAST be halfway competent about it, you know ?

Amateurs...

-F

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 7:26 PM

FLETCH2


Nah Niska would still have been an asshole.

The point about what he did was to send a clear message to others what happens to the folks that mess with him and part of that involved fucking people up beyond recognition. This was not torture for information so much as using disfigured people as advertising. Niska didnt use waterboarding not because it wouldn't have terrorized his victims but because the end result isn't graphic enough.

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Friday, May 9, 2008 4:34 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You don't write a ticket for groups who attack a country's war ship, eg _ USS COLE. That is an act of war, and we would be best served to use what ever means necessary to fight this war.

I think people use the word WAR way too often.

There should be a distinction between crime, organized crime, and war.

War is a "large-scaled violent conflict." Attack on a US warship is not large-scaled. It is glorified vandalism by low-rent guerillas.

9/11 was large-scaled. That was an act of war. But we still have no hard evidence on who did it. Yeah, that's right. A lot of suspicion and public convictions, but no hard evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Osama has never even been formally indicted for 9/11 by a federal grand jury. Note the conspicuous absence of 9/11 on his most wanted poster. Now as the head of an organization blamed by a terrorist act, wouldn't he be the first to be indicted if we had hard evidence connecting the organization to the crime?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

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Friday, May 9, 2008 4:38 AM

CANTTAKESKY


From Wikipedia:
Quote:

Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Doesn't sound much different from what Niska WAS doing to them.

So, no.

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Friday, May 9, 2008 4:39 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Attack on a US warship is not large-scaled. It is glorified vandalism by low-rent guerillas.

Blowing a 50 foot whole in a US warship is a “glorified vandalism?” A network of highly trained and wealthy terrorists are “low rent guerillas?” War is a far more accurate description of what happed to the USS Cole then the way you are characterizing it.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, May 9, 2008 5:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So much crap, so little time ...

Finn, I take it you're going to continue to stick your head in the sand (politely said, rather than up your arse, wouldn't you agree ?) and pretend to be an expert above the people who were actually tortured, and continue to be a ponce. "How would Mal and Wash be considered terrorists?" Well - under the USPATRIOT Act, they would be terrorists. You need to look it up, b/c obviously you support what you don't understand. Oh WAIT ! That's right - you meet the definition of an authoritarian and you don't need things to make sense - all you need is to believe authorities ! You go, girl.

6-ix, "I don't think waterboarding was nearly horrific enough for Niska..." What it wasn't was visual enough for the camera. That's the difference between real life and carefully controlled and constructed fantasy. And there is a difference between the two, something I hope we all understand. In real life if one or two people are waterboarded - partially drowned - for hours in front of other potential victims - and THEN drowned to death - the fear left behind in the other victims would be immense. That would be really, really effective. "... you turn around and do the exact same thing when it comes to things that scare you or that you believe fanatically in like forced inoculations for children ..." Things that scare me - like what ? What you got on that 6-ix ? I'd be curious. As to inoculations - the advantage I have over you is expertise. Something you might want to avail yourself of if you want to know WHY a person with expertise might say that in some situations, for some things, forced inoculation could be the only viable alternative.

Frem, " But when they feel the pressing need to deprive others of that right by shoving their believes down the throat of others with fear, force, or legislation, that's where I draw the line" This is a seriously asinine statement. As long as you live in a society and reap whatever benefits you get from it, you have to live by its rules. If you don't like the rules then change them. But every society - even your vision of anarchy - has rules no matter how unstated. Just ask, in your mind of course, the person who shot the other person with their ever-present gun. What rule was violated that required the death penalty ? (Come to think of it, it's an interesting concept - the gun as legislature, police, jury and executioner. You get to make up the rules, enforce them and punish rule breakers - of your rules of course - all in one step.)


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 6:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Nope, possession of the weapon is by intent, to PREVENT someone from doing so unto you, or at the very least substantially discourage it.

And it's not asinine at all, the State should NOT control our morality when it has no significant impact upon others, it ain't got no right to, nor reason, beyond as a weapon of oppression.

Ordering a guy not to dump waste in the river upstream from his neighbors is one thing, sensible and affects others...

Ordering him not to bang his wife doggystyle under threat of imprisonment is something altogether different, as such has no effect whatever on his neighbors and makes no effective sense.

If you fail to see the difference between those things, you'll never understand my argument in the first place.

-F

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Friday, May 9, 2008 6:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Blowing a 50 foot whole in a US warship is a “glorified vandalism?”

Hence the descriptor, "glorified." It was a horrible terrorist attack, where 17 Americans were killed. I shouldn't have made light of the attack, but it was not "large scaled," and it was not war. A succession of THREE terrorist attacks does not a war make.

Now a succession of dozens of attacks, steadily launched over decades as is done in Israel--that is large scaled and can be considered war.

Quote:

A network of highly trained and wealthy terrorists
Uh yeah. I have yet to see evidence of "highly trained" and/or "wealthy."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 7:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"And it's not asinine at all, the State should NOT control our morality when it has no significant impact upon others, it ain't got no right to, nor reason, beyond as a weapon of oppression."

Oh, I absolutely agree. And where have you ever seen me say otherwise ? But your statement was - as usual - very broad - 'society never gets the right to set any rules' - while indeed it does.

And BTW, while I don't recommend it (and I can't believe I have to say that, but apparently I do) - you'll find that most 'primitive' societies - the ones without formal ruling structures - are the most repressive and rule-setting. You don't get to decide whether you want those scars, whether you want that mate, whether you want to herd goats or cattle, whether you give gifts to strangers or family. All that - from the very trivial and what we think of as personal - to the interpersonal - is rigorously defined and enforced. And the penalty - if you don't like it, you can leave - was in recent times and still is in some cases - a death sentence. Because the cooperation and resources provided by the group was the difference between life and death.

So the lack of formal ruling structures doesn't automatically mean you get more personal freedom.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 8:09 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
There should be a distinction between crime, organized crime, and war.

War is a "large-scaled violent conflict." Attack on a US warship is not large-scaled. It is glorified vandalism by low-rent guerillas.

9/11 was large-scaled. That was an act of war.



I agree that we need to draw clear distinctions, but I don't think war is a matter of scale. Using that as a guide is getting us into trouble and steering us toward foolish policy decisions.

It's possible, though not common, to see acts of war that are relatively minor, and crimes that are huge in scale. But to treat a criminal problem like war is a mistake, no matter how big it is. That's why we're floundering around chasing our tails with the terrorist situation - because our leaders made the mistake of framing it as a situation of war rather than a very serious criminal problem.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, May 9, 2008 8:39 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Now a succession of dozens of attacks, steadily launched over decades as is done in Israel--that is large scaled and can be considered war.

Then the war on drugs is a actual war by your definition, since it can be described as “a succession of dozens of attacks, steadily launched over decades.”
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Uh yeah. I have yet to see evidence of "highly trained" and/or "wealthy."

I’m sure you don’t.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

But your statement was - as usual - very broad - 'society never gets the right to set any rules' - while indeed it does.

Then lemme clarify.

Society, or the State never gets to set ANY rules on my morals.

Society, or the State never gets to set ANY rules on my conduct unless and until that conduct has some perceptible affect on another person without their consent.

Is that clear enough ?

-F

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:15 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Sounds good to me.

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"We have an accord."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:27 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Sounds good to me.

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"We have an accord."



I suspect not.

Or, rather, I suspect that you'd be willing to interpret loose connections to secondary and tertiary effects in the equation. eg. poor eating habits causing health insurance rates to go up.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:33 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I thought about that and decided not to bring it up as a topic. It's for another thread.

BTW, preserving the environment - one of those not-even-tertiary-effects things that society needs to address.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But, since the topic has crossed over into the authoritarian topic here's an interesting story:

"TORONTO, Ontario (AP) -- A passenger train was placed under quarantine Friday in northern Ontario after an undetermined illness left one woman dead and at least 10 other people sick.

Authorities said the train was carrying 230 passengers and 30 crew members. Police ordered the train station evacuated in the hamlet of Foleyet."

Now, it could be that the woman who died had the flu and died of a stroke, or heart attack, or some unrelated cause. So, a quick poll -

Do authorities have the right to quarantine large numbers of people when there is no proven risk in order to ensure the safety of other people in general ?



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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:49 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

So the lack of formal ruling structures doesn't automatically mean you get more personal freedom.



There are all kinds of petty tyranies. An interesting example I heard on the radio the other day concerned condo developments in Florida. Seems that a lot were bought for speculative reasons and the folks that bought them are now walking away from the bad investment.

The problem is that the condo resident's association is just dividing the upkeep bills between fewer residents. In one complex a resident paid $20,000 and two months later were required to pay another $25,000. Fail to pay and the association can take your home, even if you don't owe anything to the bank.

Now I'm pretty sure that if the gov stuck Frem with a $10,000 a month tax surcharge and threatened to take his house he'd be up in arms about it but this is a resident's association we are talking about.

Taxation without representation?

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:54 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Do authorities have the right to quarantine large numbers of people when there is no proven risk in order to ensure the safety of other people in general ?

Yes they have that right.

But only if they catch meisall

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Friday, May 9, 2008 10:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


hee hee hee hee ...

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 9, 2008 11:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Now I'm pretty sure that if the gov stuck Frem with a $10,000 a month tax surcharge and threatened to take his house he'd be up in arms about it but this is a resident's association we are talking about.

Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to me.

City council already knows it's a really really good idea to just plain leave me the hell alone, especially after the snow shovel incident.

And I found out there actually IS a homeowners org around here, but that they have chosen to exempt my place from any of their petty schemes rather than provoke someone proven to have near legendary abilities to expose their own personal "dirt" and no qualms about pulling a harper valley PTA scene on them.

Live and let live, just the way I like it.


-F

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Friday, May 9, 2008 11:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

How would Mal and Wash be considered terrorists? You said it yourself. They are smugglers, thieves, scavengers, NOT terrorists.



Well, I guess I *should* at least give you points for knowing how to pluralize the word "terrorist" - that puts you one up on 'Rap and the President...

And seriously, you don't see how Mal & Co. could be seen as terrorists? So, ummmm, if I raid a hospital and dispose of some government agent types who are hunting me, then in your eyes that is NOT an act of terrorism, is that correct? Is that the way you want to call it? How about if I lead an army of "insurgents" (such as the Reavers in the movie "Serenity") into battle against your army and your empire?

I'm just trying to see if your real-life view corresponds at all to your view of the show, because from an Alliance point of view, Mal and gang would absolutely be considered terrorists. And you seem to have nothing if not an Alliance point of view, jawohl?





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Friday, May 9, 2008 11:42 AM

RAINSTICK


When did this become not funny?

Seriously though, shouldn't you be having this discussion in the offtopic area?

in response to the original question: No, why would I consider someone a 'nicer' person just because they are using a different torture technique? Water-boarding is still torture, so if Niska had used it instead of what he did, he would still be a sadistic torturer.

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Friday, May 9, 2008 11:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
How about if I lead an army of "insurgents" into battle against your army and your empire?

That would be terrorism on a GRAND scale...with no hope of actually destroying my empire with such an action, it's only purpose could BE terrorism...to destabilize...and if you were to broadcast lies about a small accident on a barely populated planet- making it seem like my empire was responsible for millions of deaths...well, that's just despicable blind hatred at work on your part, sir. You must want the death of our every citizen as your only long-term goal. And since you posess WMD (as demonstrated in you vicious, unwarranted, unprovoked Reaver attack)we must declare war upon you Kwicko. Nothing personal.
Quote:



I'm just trying to see if your real-life view corresponds at all to your view of the show, because from an Alliance point of view, Mal and gang would absolutely be considered terrorists.

Totally.

Chrisisall

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Friday, May 9, 2008 11:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rainstick:

Seriously though, shouldn't you be having this discussion in the offtopic area?


Not at all- the whole point of this thread is to see if we've learned any lessons from FF/Serenity, and how they might apply to our perceptions of the real world. The Niska/torture thing seemed like a suitable starting place to me...

And thanks for your contribution, BTW.

Serenity IS the RW Chrisisall

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Friday, May 9, 2008 12:20 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And seriously, you don't see how Mal & Co. could be seen as terrorists? So, ummmm, if I raid a hospital and dispose of some government agent types who are hunting me, then in your eyes that is NOT an act of terrorism, is that correct? Is that the way you want to call it?

Yeah, that’s that way I’m calling it. Thought I made that clear the first time.

It’s not a question of how they could be seen. How they could be seen depends a lot on the position of the see-er. It’s a question of what they are.
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
How about if I lead an army of "insurgents" (such as the Reavers in the movie "Serenity") into battle against your army and your empire?

Well, then you would be insurgents.
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm just trying to see if your real-life view corresponds at all to your view of the show, because from an Alliance point of view, Mal and gang would absolutely be considered terrorists. And you seem to have nothing if not an Alliance point of view, jawohl?

Well you have yet to show me that from an Alliance point of view they would be seen as terrorists. That’s your assertion. I disagree. They’re not terrorist, so why would the Alliance see them that way? They’re smugglers and thieves. Terrorists are something different.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, May 9, 2008 12:41 PM

FLETCH2


Now here's an interesting thing. In Serenity the Operative tells Mal he knows how Mal must feel about the Alliance and Mal says no, he really doesn't.

Joss has explained that conversation and in general terms it comes down to this. the Operative is an idealogue perfectly willing to kill or die for his beliefs -- as Book says he's a man that "believes hard." Reading Mal's history he thinks he's found a fellow traveler, a counterpart that believes in the Independent cause just as strongly. He thinks Mal is doing what he's doing with River to fight the Alliance.

He's wrong.

Mal has gone beyond that, he's now into protecting his family and doing what he can to keep flying and away from the Alliance.

Mal is not out there looking for a war but when the Operative takes the war to him, he uses all he can to fight back.

A terrorist is an idealogue, thats their MO. Mal isn't one, at least not any more. He won't go out of his way to hurt the Alliance -- they simply are not that important to him.

Remember, even someone who hates you thinks more of you than the person that just doesn't care.

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