REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 15:30
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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:26 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Fletch, sorry to hear about the oppression of your people by the Romans. Have you ever considered seeking reparations.

From which I demand a cut, since Fletch2’s Anglo-Norman ancestors oppressed my Irish ancestors.
Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.

Basically what your looking for is a scapegoat. And you’re going about it all wrong. You see, blaming all the worlds problems on the majority never works. What you need to do is focus on the minorities - that’s when you can get into some real classic scapegoating. Take the Jews for instance, people have been very successful throughout the last thousand years really sticking it to the Jews for the wrong they were never responsible for or sometimes wrongs that never even happened. That‘s what you need to be doing - start small - instead of blaming the majority of the people in the US for wrongs they never committed, instead just focus on the Jews. It’s a proven track record. Trust me, it works.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:44 PM

PIRATECAT


Finn thats not something to brag about out loud. Irish people have unibrows. Remember darwin's theory irish are modern cromags. If you be cool will let ya play golf with us.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The point of history is to learn from it, not to use it to excuse behavior and not to guilt trip people who have no responsibility for what their ancestors may, or may not do.

Amen.

Now teach that to a certain country-that-shall-not-be-named, which claims to be our ally but seems more a parasite playing on that guilt for all it's worth.

I don't think we'd tolerate any country but one committing outright espionage and sabotage, interfering directly and blatantly in our domestic political process, and on top of it demanding ever more foreign aid payout in addition to direct support both materially and otherwise, of their military.

It's stupid, is what it is, you don't see me holding a grudge against europeans cause they gave my sarcen ancestors so much hassle - cause, yanno, all the guys that did so are long since dead.

I wish more folk understood that, felt that way, cause a whole hell of a lot of our current "issues" globally are rooted in that exact same stupidity and grudge holding.

-F

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM

HKCAVALIER


If anyone wants to meet the real real Rev. Wright, I found this, the most concise excerpt from his "God Damn America" sermon that gives the full context for his inflammatory words.


However, if y'all want to let Hannity and Colmes define reality for you, carry on, nothing to see here.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, we appear to have two different views of the past, each expressed by some people at different times, perhaps as a matter of convenience of argument.

One is this - you have to learn from the past or you may end up repeating it, like a grade in school.

The other is this - forget the past ! It's over !

Anyone care to resolve this apparent contradiction ?



Aside from that, I'd like to point out that today, STILL, doors open automatically for people with white skin and xy chromosomes that don't automatically open for others. Any efforts to address that aren't necessarily out of some effort to redeem the past, but to change the present.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:16 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Aside from that, I'd like to point out that today, STILL, doors open automatically for people with white skin and xy chromosomes that don't automatically open for others. Any efforts to address that aren't necessarily out of some effort to redeem the past, but to change the present.

This is nonsense. No doors have ever opened automatically for me, that didn’t open automatically for anyone who stepped in front of them.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 28, 2008 12:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA


*Just points, silently, to his sig-line*



It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, March 28, 2008 1:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If anyone wants to meet the real real Rev. Wright, I found this, the most concise excerpt from his "God Damn America" sermon that gives the full context for his inflammatory words.


However, if y'all want to let Hannity and Colmes define reality for you, carry on, nothing to see here.

HKCavalier




This bogus line of " full context " in reference to RJW's words is nothing but an attempt to defend the indefensible. There's nothing in the least which justifies or reconfigures his clear and intended meaning. A full examination of his speech reveals exactly what "god damn America' sounds like. His revisionist, demagogic, vitriol filled message is no less clear than w/ the "soundbites" FOX news plays( and thankfully so ). This clown isn't preaching the Gospel, he's delivering a political speech.

And the 2000 election wasn't stolen, by any rational and honest account. RJW is just a demagogue and a bald face liar.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 28, 2008 5:49 AM

HKCAVALIER


Well then, AURaptor,

We disagree. Thanks for taking the time to listen to the video.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 2:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Well then, AURaptor,

We disagree. Thanks for taking the time to listen to the video.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



Problem is, the FULL CONTEXT only reinforces the origial description of J. Wright. It makes him less, not more, of a sypathetic figure.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 28, 2008 2:58 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

HK-

Hey antimason,

I was not suggesting that you shoulda read his book (topped the NY Times Best Sellers List, so a bunch of people have read it, btw). I mentioned the book to say, "The guy has even written a book about his beliefs." His beliefs are not hidden. If you cared enough to do 5 minutes of research, you could know all of his beliefs before you make comments that only express your own ignorance of the man.



HK, ive heard a number of his speeches, theyve been all over the news since before he was even a top contender. i will admit that prior to this rev. Wright thing, i didnt really care about his theological views: Obamas a socialist progressive of the Wilson/Roosevelt type, and i wouldnt vote for him; hes not even electable in my mind.

but, i guess i should pay closer attention, since the masses of lemmings might just get him into office. i didnt make this a story, the media did, so dont call me ignorant simply for reacting to it. my comment was regarding whether Obama would consider himself a 'black liberation'ist, or not; that is the controversy right? i have not heard him explicity address that, if he did show me

Quote:

And by research, I simply mean googling some speeches or visiting YouTube for his many public statements about his beliefs. Why do you insist that his beliefs are somehow obscure?


ive seen a number of his speeches and debates, besides that hes a liberal ideologue, i havent heard him make mention of his theological beliefs, other then maybe generalities about a belief in God. shame on me for not reading his book, i really didnt care.. IM NOT VOTING FOR HIM!!

Quote:

I don't think it's reasonable for you to claim that the man needs to state his beliefs up front when you haven't even been paying attention.


i guess youre right.. ya snooze ya loose. so when he takes office, and everyone i know is being taxed to death paying for global warming and one liberal program after the next... i can say "thats your fault, you could have 'simply googled', and then youd'a known you were voting for a socialist!"

Quote:

It's not just you, of course. There's this bizarre meme running around the interenet and the mainstream media that Obama is some kind of "man without a past," a "mystery man" which fits snuggly into folks conspiracy theories about him being a "muslim sleeper-cell" or some such utter horseshit.


nope, im worried because he has yet to address any real problems. hey, how about the devaluation of the currency by the illegal federal reserve? how about stopping the North American Union? what about reducing the wellfare state, so i dont get robbed every week? .. or even, just mention the constitution, other then in passing?

thats right.. nothing! hes a CFR socialist. and thats why the reverends comments were controversial

Quote:


anti- actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy!
Quote:



More "???" from me on this one. I can't make out what you're trying to say.



i noticed people playing the race card.. i was making a quick observation: Obamas race is only an issue to collectivists, people who see others as belonging to a group(minority, gay etc). those are subjects exclusive to the democrat party, its their niche, they cater to and elicit discrimination and racism in-inadvertently. im not voting democrat, so these arent relevant issues to me(as a conservative, but especially as an individual)

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Friday, March 28, 2008 3:34 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Problem is, the FULL CONTEXT only reinforces the origial description of J. Wright. It makes him less, not more, of a sypathetic figure.

Problem is, that's not an objective statement you got there. It's your opinion and I disagree with it.

Besides, more or less "sympathetic" was never the issue. Of course you, AURaptor, are unsympathetic to him and his ideas. The issue is that his "God damn America" is not a categorical statement, but a statement in the context of American government's racist and genocidal policies. He was saying that God is the measure of what is right and wrong, not the government; and when a government goes wrong God judges that nation--pretty standard.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 3:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"This is nonsense. No doors have ever opened automatically for me, that didn’t open automatically for anyone who stepped in front of them."

I think most people would find this absurd on the face of it.

Now before you give me a long, sad, sob-story about how you never had nuthin' and you had to pull yourself up by your bootstraps (little violin playing in the background) - remember that that's true of a lot of people here. So let me ask you - did you ever have your application refused because of your race or sex ? I have, on more than one occasion. Were you ever told that you had to be better than everyone to even consider applying ? I have, on more than one occasion.

I'm not talking about getting things handed to you, no work required, just because of your color or sex. I'm talking about not even being let into the competition because of them.

And since you think that never happens, you've obviously never had it happen to you. Which kinda' proves my point.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, March 28, 2008 3:58 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i didnt make this a story, the media did, so dont call me ignorant simply for reacting to it.

Y'know, a sad thing has happened to the word "ignorant." Ya can't just use it to describe a person's lack of knowledge anymore, it comes packed with some general attack on a person's character. I was really using the word in it's outmoded meaning only--didn't mean to suggest there was anything wrong with you other than you arrogating authority when you didn't have all the facts.
Quote:

my comment was regarding whether Obama would consider himself a 'black liberation'ist, or not; that is the controversy right? i have not heard him explicity address that, if he did show me
I don't think that's the controversy, actually. I don't think most folk imagine that Obama is a black separatist. His speech last week was not the speech of a black separatist. I don't think the DNC would support a candidate who is a black separatist. I don't much think a black separatist would be running for President.
Quote:

i was making a quick observation: Obamas race is only an issue to collectivists, people who see others as belonging to a group(minority, gay etc). those are subjects exclusive to the democrat party, its their niche, they cater to and elicit discrimination and racism in-inadvertently. im not voting democrat, so these arent relevant issues to me(as a conservative, but especially as an individual)
Here's where you seem to have your cake and eat it, antimason. You want to be able to say "we conservatives" and then proclaim yourself anti-collectivist. Any time you talk along "us & them" lines, you're talking as a collectivist. When you complain about how "the secular humanists" are treating "you Christians" you're speaking as a collectivist, I'm pretty sure.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 5:44 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
So let me ask you - did you ever have your application refused because of your race or sex ? I have, on more than one occasion.

My skin color was a major factor in getting me closed out of many things. Did you ever have your face beat in because of your skin color? I have - more then once. It’s not the funest thing to do.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Were you ever told that you had to be better than everyone to even consider applying ? I have, on more than one occasion.

Yes.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'm not talking about getting things handed to you, no work required, just because of your color or sex. I'm talking about not even being let into the competition because of them.

And since you think that never happens, you've obviously never had it happen to you. Which kinda' proves my point.

You’re problem is that you’re so committed to the lie, you don’t even realize you’re the one repeating the mistakes of history. You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers. This type of thinking is not any different in nature then anti-Semitism or anti-Irish or misogyny - it may not rise to the same severity in all cases, but in nature, it’s the same thing. You’re still punishing an entire group of people for imaginary wrongs. I never owned any slaves. I never told any black person they had to go to the back of the bus. I’ve never judged a woman by her sex in the workplace, but you want to punish me for it anyway, because I’m a white male, not because of what I've done, but because of my gender and my ethnicity. Yes, I agree with you on one thing, those who will not learn from history may be doomed to repeat it.

I’m against chauvinism in all its forms. I’m against racism in all its forms. Your gender or the color of your skin or the god you pray to are irrelevant, it is the acts that are important. Someday when society learns to judge the act and not the person, then maybe we will finally stop repeating the mistakes of history. Someday.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 28, 2008 6:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You’re still punishing an entire group of people for imaginary wrongs." Dude, get real.

For example, let's take your beloved military as an example of equal opportunity and treatment:

Women have bravely served the U.S. Navy for nearly a century, but they have only been allowed in positions aboard non-hospital ships for the last 25 years. In October 1978, in the wake of a court ruling that overturned statutes that forbade women from serving at sea, ...

The US Army is negotiating with the Pentagons civilian leaders a plan to eliminate a women-in-combat ban (2008) ...

After the Air Force announced plans to train its "first women military pilots" in the mid-1970s ...


TAILHOOK INCIDENT
1992
WHEREAS, at the Tailhook Association convention in September 1991, Navy aviators surrounded unsuspecting female guests, including 14 female Navy officers, and passed them down a gauntlet, grabbing at their breasts and buttocks, attempting to strip off their clothes, and jeering and taunting; and
WHEREAS, the publicity surrounding the Tailhook Association incident reveals an attitude of contempt toward women held by many military men and tolerated by much of the military leadership; and
WHEREAS this practice has occurred since 1986 with the knowledge of senior military leaders; and
WHEREAS, military leaders did not take the women's reports of the incident seriously and the perpetrators and others aware of the incident obstructed the investigation; and ...



Ninety percent of women under 50 who have served in the U.S. military and who responded to a survey report being victims of sexual harassment, and nearly one- third of the respondents of all ages say they have been raped.
The incidence of violent assaults among female veterans, the vast majority of whom reported at least one ``severe assault,'' is much higher than in the general population and raises questions about the treatment of women currently on active duty and the 1.2 million veterans, researchers said.


***************************************************************
Centuries ago ? Imaginary ? Yeah. Right.

Oh, and I'm not 'punishing' or blaming you personally, or even white males in general. But when you say such things never happen you really display an enormous ignorance.

***************************************************************

And now I have to go and get on with life. I'll leave you to consider how your world view could be so shockingly deficient.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 6:29 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

The point you ignore is that everybody has been "oppressed" by somebody at some point, all you have to do is go back far enough. There are places in eastern Europe where there are still grudges about wars that were fought 500 years ago, Bin Laden is hung up on a Caliphate that ceased to exist 400 years ago.

The moral is clear -- you don't dwell on the past, if you do you make yourself a victim of it. No living American benefited from the effects of slavery, no living American suffers from the effects of slavery. There are a lot of African Americans suffering from things that happen right now, like petty racism and lack of educational opportunity. Those are the things we can fix, so let's not dwell on the past. The point of history is to learn from it, not to use it to excuse behavior and not to guilt trip people who have no responsibility for what their ancestors may, or may not do.




OMG, seriously, I cannot believe you posted that, I'm amazed at the complete fantasy of what you posted, if you truly believe that.



I doubt seriously if you know more about American history then I do, especially if that post was any indication. I got your point all to well, the problem was it was the wrong point,I'm not talking about everybody, I was talking speicfically about black people in America, not Rome or Romans or anyother ethic race or culture. I'm not saying anybodys pain is any less precious. but I am talking about black Americans whoes history and experience in the USA is unique and diffrent from anyother ethnic group or race, and your trying to qualify those experiences with something completely diffrent.

your completely ignoring the facts which are black people in the USA are only 47 years removed from slavery , neo slavery and Jim Crow. it was only in the 1960's when black people in the U.S got their civil rights and some protection under the law, compared to over four hundred years of the other. your also choosing to ignore, that white privlage comes at the exspense of others and always has.

instead of coming up with these ridiculous, assine, ignorant arguments that are based in your own bias fantasy, why don't you just admit the truth!! your scared, to live in fear is degrading, but you are, your scared of Obama and what he represents. Even though this thread is about Rev Wright any little excuse even one that is blantly and historically wrong you love it, but really its about your own fears.

and I'm calling you on it!!

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Friday, March 28, 2008 6:33 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Aside from that, I'd like to point out that today, STILL, doors open automatically for people with white skin and xy chromosomes that don't automatically open for others. Any efforts to address that aren't necessarily out of some effort to redeem the past, but to change the present.

This is nonsense. No doors have ever opened automatically for me, that didn’t open automatically for anyone who stepped in front of them.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero




You have white privilage, are trying to tell me as a white man you don't have white privlage because of your race, so far your argument is ridiculous.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 7:09 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Centuries ago ? Imaginary ? Yeah. Right.

Imaginary, yes. Centuries ago is something you came up with. Even slavery wasn’t “centuries ago.”
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Oh, and I'm not 'punishing' or blaming you personally, or even white males in general. But when you say such things never happen you really display an enormous ignorance.

Punishing me is exactly what you want, isn’t it? Putting the white men (read: misogynist and rapists) in their place. The ignorance here is yours, because I never said injustices didn’t happen - I never said there weren’t people out there who wouldn’t take advantage of others, sometimes with cruel intent. I never even suggested such a thing. That’s purely your imagination. What I said, is that no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth. An inconvenient truth for those who want to associate me with rapists because of the color of my skin or my gender, but a truth, nonetheless.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 28, 2008 10:37 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:

instead of coming up with these ridiculous, assine, ignorant arguments that are based in your own bias fantasy, why don't you just admit the truth!! your scared, to live in fear is degrading, but you are, your scared of Obama and what he represents. Even though this thread is about Rev Wright any little excuse even one that is blantly and historically wrong you love it, but really its about your own fears.

and I'm calling you on it!!



Ok?

Jenny, what part of "not American" are you missing exactly? Is it the part where I don't actually get to vote for any of these people? Is it the part where the selection of the American President is something done by Americans and thus has nothing at all to do with me. Why would I be scared of the results of an election in a foreign country?


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Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:16 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Well, we appear to have two different views of the past, each expressed by some people at different times, perhaps as a matter of convenience of argument.

One is this - you have to learn from the past or you may end up repeating it, like a grade in school.

The other is this - forget the past ! It's over !

Anyone care to resolve this apparent contradiction ?
"



No contradiction. The past should inform our actions not rule them. For example-

Good -- "History shows us that feuds between neighbors often escalate out of control. It would be a good idea to ensure the party's seek third party arbitration before there is bloodshed."

Bad -- "Felix Hatfield, 120 years ago your great grandpappy killed mine you bastard! Now I'm agonna kill you to recover the McCoy family honor (bang, bang)"

The only "debts" I owe as an individual are the ones I run up in my lifetime, I am not responsible for the actions or inactions of my forebears good or bad. Any argument based on the theory of some kind of "original sin" is bogus on that basis.

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Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:01 PM

CITIZEN


Wow, Obama, big troubles. Not only is his Christian minister some sort of Nazi, but he's secretly a Muslim and has a name that sounds like Osama.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, March 29, 2008 2:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers."

What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you mistated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige die when your generation was born ? (An impposibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

"no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth"

Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discrimianted against. You don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally. So in your mind, it's not there.

The other thing you need to do is point out where I advocate punishing. Anywhere ? Or is this a figment of your imagination as well ?




***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, March 29, 2008 2:55 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers."

What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you misstated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige miraculously die when your generation was born ? (An impossibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

"no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth"

Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discriminated against. If you don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally, in your mind, it's not there.

The other thing you need to do is point out where I advocate punishing. Anywhere ? Or is this a figment of your imagination as well ?





***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:12 PM

RIVERLOVE


Obama's Cabinet :
Sec. of Defense : Rev. Wright
Sec. of Treasury : Rev. Sharpton
Sec. of State : Rev. Farrakhan
Nat'l. Security Advisor : Danny Glover
Sec. of Homeland Security : Harry Belafonte
Sec. of Interior : Tookie Wilson
Chief of Staff : Mahmoud "Bucky" Achmindenijhad
Press Secretary : Hugo "El Hombre De Tu Suenos" Chavez
Surgeon General : Dr. Phil

Yep, Jan. 20, 2009...Meet the new America.

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Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Seriously, why on earth did you post this ? Is it supposed to be funny ? Did you want to demonstrate how ignorant and crude you are ? Were you trying to show off how many names of black people and extremeists you could post ? Please explain the contribution your post made to us all. Thank you.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Seriously, why on earth did you post this ? Is it supposed to be funny ? Did you want to demonstrate how ignorant and crude you are ? Were you trying to show off how many names of black people and extremeists you could post ? Please explain the contribution your post made to us all. Thank you.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not a fact, it's a scam "



Lighten up, Francis.

It's clearly suppose to be funny, and no one needs to explain anything to you if they don't want.

( I wasn't aware that Dr. Phil is a 'black person'. )

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:09 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Some of the conversations in this thread make me think of a large question i've been pondering about the difference between conservative and liberal thought on issues of "learned" versus "inherent" behavior.

Right off the bat, I think its hard for anybody to contend that there is not a racial divide in this country along the lines of economics. Blacks make less money on average than whites do. Also, More blacks are imprisoned per capita, than whites are.

What makes me think about this, is that there are many people making the point that they did not own slaves, they have never discriminated, and therefore they don't owe anybody anything, and need to take responsibility for nothing that happened before them.

The question this poses is what these same people make of today's numbers. they have decided that there is no large scale racism afflicting the black community to this day. I assume they have decided that everybody is equally free to make the right choices in life...everybody inherently knows right from wrong, good from evil, and can succeed if they are smart enough and motivated enough, except for those "unfair" programs like affirmative action...etc.

so then, those of you looking at things like this...the boot-strap model...etc. Is it your findings then, that black people are on an average, more evil than white people? Less capable than white people? Lazier than white people? Inherently?

Because if it isn't inherent, if it is a social malaise, caused by faulty programs and low expectations that you would contend foster such behavior, and if that is what has created this divide, then you also have to accept that these people have been led down a road either by "bad leaders" of their communities, and then I'd ask what makes them less capable of picking "good leaders" in your minds, or else by ill intentioned "liberals" who have tried hard to cottle them and make them feel entitled,...

and if that's the case, you would be accepting a socialization effect that has inflicted a whole community, which then has truly not gotten a fair shake in society even to this day.

You would also be accepting that right and wrong are not inherent, but learned, and with that acceptance, you would have to look at prisons as institutions punishing people who had no other road, or very few roads to choose from. At some point you would have to accept that the condition of the black community is predicated on the state and society's role in it as a whole, even if you and I disagreed with what exactly was wrong with society's hand in it.

Which brings me back to whether or not we as a people are responsible for our black brethren. We may not be responsible for slavery, but we are responsible for the current conditions of the black experience no less so than they are, and we are responsible for the effects that a dissillusioned chunk of our society has on the whole.

Because, if we are going to contend, as I do, that people are people, then we have to accept that blacks have had a vastly different experience than we have in this nation, up and to this day, and that it is that vastly diffferent experience that has yielded such staggeringly different results.

If you aren't willing to accept that, then maybe you believe that people are "good" or "bad" from the get go, "motivated" or "lazy" as doled out by God at conception, but then please clarify to yourself what that means in terms of your view of races as a whole...because they aren't doing equally. Put more directly....do you have a preconceived notion of blacks or people of other races, based on statistics of successes and failures of those races in this nation?

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:01 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you mistated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige die when your generation was born ? (An impposibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

I never said discrimination didn’t exist. I said white men are not the only ones responsible and they aren’t free from its influences. What you want to do is created a class of people for whom you can blame all the world’s problems on. You’re pointing a finger at a group of people differentiated only by the color of their skin and their gender, and saying these people should be hated because they are free from all the world’s ills and cause everyone else problems. As I said, what you’re doing is not different in nature then anti-Semitism or racism or misogyny - it’s chauvinist and racist.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discrimianted against. You don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally. So in your mind, it's not there.

According to your own post, most of it hasn’t been their since the 70s. And I was drawing dinosaurs and wearing Luke Skywalker underwear in the 70s. So once again, imaginary.

So far the only discrimination in the military you’ve come up with is that we don’t allow women on the front line, and even if we did, women still wouldn’t be on the front line. You seem to be very ignorant about military affairs, so let me explain it. Most men in the military aren‘t on the front line. And the men we do allow have finished training programs that prepare them for combat; programs that, in most cases, 99.5% of women in the US probably couldn’t pass anyway, but for every woman we allow into Ranger School, for instance, that’s one less man who might actually have a chance to pass it. One less soldier we might have on the front line. So maybe you’d like us to give women a pass - give them a handicap, like affirmative action - so that they can pass Ranger School and go to the Front line totally unprepared and get killed - in the process fail to support their team and get others killed. I’m against that, but that has nothing to do with chauvinism, because I’m not for sending anyone, man or woman, to the front line who isn’t prepared for combat.

Another point of misunderstanding that you seem to have is the idea of “front line.” The fact is that women ARE on the front line. We simply don’t allow women to be in offensive units whose duty it is to close on the enemy - that is approach the enemy on ground, engage and kill them.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:30 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

Because, if we are going to contend, as I do, that people are people, then we have to accept that blacks have had a vastly different experience than we have in this nation, up and to this day, and that it is that vastly diffferent experience that has yielded such staggeringly different results.



Great post, I think you summed up the situation we now face very well. The only problem I see is were whites can do anything to help the problem. You mention income disparity, but the problem with income data is it doesn't compare "apples with apples". There is no question that blacks on average earn less than whites, but so what. College educated black women earn more the equally educated white women. The issue isn't income disparity its social disparity. Black society has chosen to embrace out of wedlock childbirth, rap music the glorifies crime, and getting a good education is "acting white". When black leaders try to bring up problems with black society they are chastised by the comunity for critizicing blacks, a white saying the same thing is called a racist. The time is long past that whites can do anything to help the black comunity, it's time the did it for themselves. There are opportunities out there for blacks that are willing to get an education and learn to conform to society some what. It's not white society that they need to conform to, it's American society which is a mixture of cultures and races from the entire earth. As long as blacks choose to live in a society separate from the mainstream there's nothing whites can do to help their situation that won't get us called racists. The only thing we can do is what many of us have done our entire lives, that is treat everyone as an individual.

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