REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Psycho soldier kills puppy

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 04:17
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VIEWED: 7922
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Thursday, March 6, 2008 5:47 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy. For pressure drag what matters is the cross sectional area of the puppy, for friction drag it's the total surface area. Because the surface area and cross sectional area would be approximately the same for a stuffed animal or a real puppy, the drag coefficient can be assumed to be the same for both.

But isn't the drag's effect changed by the weight of the object? I mean, doesn't a heavier object need a greater surface area to be affected by drag similarly to a lighter object?



First thing is that you need to do is separate the concept of weight from that of mass. Mass is independent of Earths gravitational field and is what is most often used in physics. Weight comes from the fact that all mass on Earth is effected by the earths gravity. If you drop an acorn or a feather in a vacuum on the earths surface both will accelerate towards the center of the Earth at 9.81 m/s2. Just like Galileo dropping two steel balls of different mass from the Leaning Tower of Pisa, both hit the ground at the same time. It's a good thing he used balls with enough mass and similar surface areas, making the aerodynamic drag on them an insignificant factor or he would have gotten a different result.

Drag is completely independent of weight or mass. The only other factors that effect drag in subsonic air flow are the density and viscosity of the air, but in this case that too would be the same for both puppies.

I think your mention of surface area is related to your understanding of the aerodynamics of aircraft creating lift with an airfoil. In this case the idea is to maximize lift by having as much surface area as is required to lift the aircraft but at the same time minimize the parasite drag that is a result of the creating lift.



Only maybe 1 point to add , for now...
Right at the last here , I think Kirk-y really means to say , minimize the induced drag that is the result of creating lift...

Parasite drag would be stuff stuck on the outside of the aircraft , that creates drag...

That Galileo really did have balls , alright...Made him a 'heretic'...

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 5:49 PM

AVENGINGWATCHER


O2B, you are really coming off as pretentious and this is coming from someone who isn't good with people and completely in love with himself. Hard to argue facts if people don't like you.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 6:14 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
O2B, you are really coming off as pretentious and this is coming from someone who isn't good with people and completely in love with himself. Hard to argue facts if people don't like you.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?



Hmm...Will take that under advisement...

But to me , 'facts' really support the lack of 'pretense'...What is it you figure me to be pretending ?

If I imagined that everyone in RWED is gonna like me , now THAT would be 'pretentious'...

I was just offering an observation to my colleague , Chris...Different strokes , ya know...

He's aware that he's doing well...Just wanted him to know that I've noticed , too , and I'm offering reinforcement...Iron sharpens iron...

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 7:08 PM

AVENGINGWATCHER


Just sayin' as a friendly voice is all. I never said you were pretending anything, just sound a bit cocky and since the solider has admitted that he threw a dog, seems to not be much aof a reason to argue this point anymore.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 7:08 PM

AVENGINGWATCHER


Just sayin' as a friendly voice is all. I never said you were pretending anything, just sound a bit cocky and since the solider has admitted that he threw a dog, seems to not be much of a reason to argue this point anymore.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Friday, March 7, 2008 12:43 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

Parasite drag would be stuff stuck on the outside of the aircraft , that creates drag...





Good catch there. Parasite drag would be all drag except induced drag that is created by lift.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 4:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
the solider has admitted that he threw a dog, seems to not be much aof a reason to argue this point anymore.


The jury's still out- that might be a hack and not the Marine himself, though I do admit to wanting to believe so badly that it was fake that I might have gone overboard on the analyzing thing...

Hoping Chrisisall

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 7, 2008 4:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

Drag is completely independent of weight or mass. The only other factors that effect drag in subsonic air flow are the density and viscosity of the air, but in this case that too would be the same for both puppies.

I think your mention of surface area is related to your understanding of the aerodynamics of aircraft creating lift with an airfoil.

I mean if you drop a pie tin & an aluminum spoon, both of equal mass, the spoon should hit the ground first due to less 'wind resistance', am I right?

Almost not-stupid Chrisisall

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 7, 2008 5:52 AM

MAL4PREZ


Ooooh... I just love me some physics chat! I'm not even kidding. I'm a pig in shit, even with the morbid subject.

Re avengingwatcher's post - wow. I just don't know what to say.

Quote:

Quote:

Sadly, I don't recall seeing the plo slow down as much as I'd expect of a low density object. I wasn't watching for that, so I'm not sure.
Just watched it three more times, it sure didn't fall as fast as I'd expect it to, plus a bit more of a bounce than the 'splat' I'd also expect.

Bouncing is not impossible. I got nothing solid to back me up, but I recall someone telling me how bouncing does more damage, because it's a greater velocity change than just stopping. So if you fall and your head bounces, that's very bad. The splat thing is really about hollywood special effects - Tremors has the most spectular splat ever put on screen, imho. Not physically realistic, but worth a few pauses and rewinds.

Quote:

Okay, but two things: I feel that it weighed maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a real puppy's weight, which would account for the rotational inertia, HOWEVER, I've seen cats in mid air extending their legs and ( please excuse my lack of technical language here) 'disrupting the single-axis spin'. The plo spun on a clear single axis, and moved no appendage even once. Once again, I'm left with the phony-puppy assumption.
And I really hope you're right!

Thing is, extending limbs doesn't stop spin or change its axis, it just slows it down because some mass is now further from the center. The kinetic energy of the rotational motion must be conserved, so if some mass gets further out, the angular velocity of the spin has to slow. A cat spreading its legs uses this effect, ice skaters do this to vary their spin speeds.

Which is different from torque, which is maybe what you mean. Torque is a person standing on the edge of swimming pool, wheeling their arms so they don't fall forward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque has a great animation of the vectors involved. Cats and dogs do this, whipping their tails around to use torque to right themselves. But I don't think this applies applies to the plo problem. I think the plo, if real, was short-limbed and weak and uncoordinated enough - being so young it probably couldn't even walk gracefully - that all it could think was shitshitshitshitshit. It likely had no idea of how to splay out and whip its tail and try to right itself.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy.

OK, but drag is a force and it acts on a mass according to F=ma. a, the acceleration, is how we work out the effect of the force on the object's flight path. Since a=F/m, if F is small and m is large, a is very small. No obvious effect on the path.

This is true no matter how we calculate F. Air drag does depend on surface area and velocity and the properties of the air - and not the mass - and you can work the details of that out in all the detail you want, but in the end all that matters is the size of F in relation to m.

Which is why a rock and styrofoam peanut of exactly the same size and shape fall through air at different speeds. The same force is pushing on them both, but the lighter one is easier to move.

Quote:

Another issue is the flight path of the puppy. This is primarily determined by the vertical component of velocity imparted to the puppy when it is released and doesn't tell us much. The only significant factor here is the horizontal distance, since all projectiles essentially fly in a parabolic curve.
Hmm.. Not sure what you're getting at. The horizontal distance is determined by both the vertical and horzitonal components of velocity. The plo goes until it hits the ground. Assuming the ground is flat, the time it takes to hit the ground is determined solely by the vertical velocity. Call this tfall. tfall is used to calculate the horizontal distance traveled. By which I mean - both components are necessary to find horizontal distance.

So, useful information we might get from the flight path is how the horizontal distance traveled by a real puppy differs from that of a lighter stuffed puppy, and these would only be different because of air drag - projectile motion is independent of mass unless there is air drag. But I'm not sure we have enough information to work the expected paths out, or that the mass difference between real puppy and stuffed puppy would make a measurable difference. I think this is the question Chris is asking. Right? Short answer - I don't know! Have to think about it...

Quote:

The velocity of the puppy when it leaves the soldiers hand as previously mentioned is governed by the basic equation F=m*a(force equals mass x acceleration). Acceleration is defined as the change in velocity with respect to time as given by the equation a=dv/dt where dv in the change in velocity and dt is the time interval that the force F in applied. Combining these equations we can get the form F/m=dv/dt or dv=(F/m)dt. From this we see that the velocity of the puppy is determined by the force F of the soldiers hand, the mass of the puppy, and the amount of time the force is applied.
All true. We might be able to estimate dt and the launching velocity (hence dv) from the video, but we don't know F, so we can't calculate m. Dead end!

Quote:

The problem we have here is the one Cantakesky eluded to earlier. Without knowing the mass of the puppy/fake puppy, and the force, and time applied, we can't really determine anything helpful using the laws of physics.
Not at all true! We can't calculate anything useful from the initial launch, and maybe not even from the flight path, but we can infer things from the spin...

This is - oddly - so much better than working. Sorry the post is so long. Explaining in fewer words is hard.


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, March 7, 2008 6:38 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

Which is different from torque, which is maybe what you mean.
Cats and dogs do this, whipping their tails around to use torque to right themselves. But I don't think this applies applies to the plo problem.

Sadly, I didn't take this into account, nor the possibility of the puppy being half-conscious or possibly dehydrated....this all fraks-up my contention that the poor mutt isn't real, I fear.

Chrisisall

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 7, 2008 6:45 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

What is it you figure me to be pretending ?


Pretentious means, "characterized by assumption of dignity or importance" or "creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction."

You create this impression when you patronize Chris. Patronize means, "to behave in an offensively condescending manner." Your comments to Chris are condescending, even if veiled in a compliment.

Just quit it with the "oh.. it's so good you're finally learning...." type comments, and your image of pretentiousness will fade.

P.S. Of course, by giving this advice, I am exuding the same condescension and pretentiousness that I am ascribing to you. My advice implies that I am in a position to lecture you, that somehow I am more socially skilled and less of an ass than you are, which is probably not true.

--------------------------
Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen.
--Mark Twain

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Friday, March 7, 2008 6:47 AM

AVENGINGWATCHER


well chris the kid also had a site on bebo. The Marines are investigating.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:06 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

What is it you figure me to be pretending ?


Pretentious means, "characterized by assumption of dignity or importance" or "creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction."

You create this impression when you patronize Chris. Patronize means, "to behave in an offensively condescending manner." Your comments to Chris are condescending, even if veiled in a compliment.

Just quit it with the "oh.. it's so good you're finally learning...." type comments, and your image of pretentiousness will fade.

P.S. Of course, by giving this advice, I am exuding the same condescension and pretentiousness that I am ascribing to you. My advice implies that I am in a position to lecture you, that somehow I am more socially skilled and less of an ass than you are, which is probably not true.




C-T-S ! You sultry minx , are you falling in love with me (again !)...

The tussle was between myself and Chris in the first place...

WE would have worked it out one way or the 'tuther' , but that's not so simple as it might be , with the judges and diplomats jumping into the fray...Plus the stray dogs , and the passers-by who want to jump in and gang-rape us to death...

Lately , you've called me troll , bully , ass...

And admitted to judging me , also...Good on you for that admission...

It has the potential to make other folks' 'impressions' of you seem more favorable...

But , there are many more shades of meaning to certain words than you've indicated so far ,

Patronizing , as an example :

To act as a patron to; support or sponsor.
To go to as a customer, especially on a regular basis.
To treat in a condescending manner,(which you and others have covered already)

Seems that you want to call names and then attempt to take the moral high ground...

That's a slippery slope...

This was never your tussle in the first place...The war between myself and Chris would've fallen flat much sooner without your veiled attempts at diplomacy , whereby you called me troll , bully , ass , whatever , etc , etc...

Chris and I have made our peace...I've saluted his going from 'VictoriousIsAll' to 'NewStudentIsAll'...Straight-up Compliment , with the context of where I'm coming from , but some folk miss that .(Logic Failure)

Wish I could say the same about you , Missy .
This is disappointin' as hell...

At least you ain't shy about showing me your 'ass'.

But if you just feel like you should 'patronize' me , I don't have to roll with you as my customer...

If you want to persist in launching the rude name-calling fray again , take it 'somewhere else'...

But if you want to begin anew , and have a meeting of minds , and an honoring of agreements , absent angry exchanges , let's get started...

First agreement : Don't bring your pets !

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Plus the stray dogs , and the passers-by who want to jump in and gang-rape us to death...


I do believe I missed that part...
Then again when I'm in the mood, I kinda let stuff like that go unnoticed.

Have to go to work now...uhhhh- no energy to fight the inertiaisall



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:41 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Your comments to Chris are condescending, even if veiled in a compliment.


Ahhh, it's his way.

Is that better than a plan?

Chrisisall for whirlled peas

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:48 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Your comments to Chris are condescending, even if veiled in a compliment.


Ahhh, it's his way.

Is that better than a plan?




The 'way' is the path on which one goes...

The 'plan' is the vision on how to make the journey...

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:59 AM

CHRISISALL


My employer 'spects me to be on time today- that's a long wait for a train don't come.

Silly Chrisisall

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Friday, March 7, 2008 11:20 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Ms. Gregarious Demonstrates a fundamental principal of physics



maybe we could get Ms. Germaine to toss that psycho puppy killer...


thanks to Dr Zaius and Germaine Gregarious
http://zaiusnation.blogspot.com/

edit: and special thanks to Dr. Monkerstein... happy landing, Doc!

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Friday, March 7, 2008 12:31 PM

CHRISISALL


This thread has been re-seated in to the crazy section; please make sure your tray tables & straight jacket restraints are in the upright and locked position- and thank you for flying with Turbulence Airlines!

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Friday, March 7, 2008 12:44 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:

Drag is completely independent of weight or mass. The only other factors that effect drag in subsonic air flow are the density and viscosity of the air, but in this case that too would be the same for both puppies.

I think your mention of surface area is related to your understanding of the aerodynamics of aircraft creating lift with an airfoil.

I mean if you drop a pie tin & an aluminum spoon, both of equal mass, the spoon should hit the ground first due to less 'wind resistance', am I right?


You are correct that it is air resistance(drag) that makes the pie tin fall slower. If there was no air present(vacuum)they would both hit the ground at the same time regardless of their mass or physical shape.

One of the best examples of drag being created by lift is an experiment we all did when we were kids. Do you remember driving down the road with your open hand sticking out the window of the car. As long as you hold you hand parallel to the ground the air resistance is minimal, but as soon as you tilt hand at an angle to the oncoming air you can feel the air lift your hand and push it rearward simultaneously. In aerodynamics the angle of your hand relative to the oncoming air is called the "angle of attack". Many think that it requires an airfoil type surface to create lift. Actually you can take almost any object and propel it through the air with an "angle of attack" and get some lift. This is true even in the case of a sphere if it is spinning.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 12:44 PM

SIMONWHO


It's been revealed that the Marine (Charlie) also commited a similar act with his childhood pet.



















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Friday, March 7, 2008 1:37 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Ooooh... I just love me some physics chat! I'm not even kidding. I'm a pig in shit, even with the morbid subject. ]



We are strange ones.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy.
Quote:

OK, but drag is a force and it acts on a mass according to F=ma. a, the acceleration, is how we work out the effect of the force on the object's flight path. Since a=F/m, if F is small and m is large, a is very small. No obvious effect on the path.

This is true no matter how we calculate F. Air drag does depend on surface area and velocity and the properties of the air - and not the mass - and you can work the details of that out in all the detail you want, but in the end all that matters is the size of F in relation to m.

Which is why a rock and styrofoam peanut of exactly the same size and shape fall through air at different speeds. The same force is pushing on them both, but the lighter one is easier to move.






I think I agree with you ,but the force that you are referring to is the reaction force not the drag force. It seems like splitting hairs but the drag force is the force of the air molecules pushing on the puppy while the reaction force is the puppy pushing on the air molecules. This is described by Newton III law of motion "To every action there is always an opposed reaction". The only reason this is important is because of keeping track of where the energy is lost or gained. I always get a little confused at this point, but basically one force results in friction which creates heat energy and the other force causes a loss on kinetic energy in the puppy. Kinetic energy from the puppy is converted to heat energy in the air molecules.

I'll be the first to admit I'm pulling some of this out of a pretty rusty old brain. Are there any PHDs in physic out here that can help me out.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 1:42 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
It's been revealed that the Marine (Charlie) also commited a similar act with his childhood pet.



Anyone with half a brain can see that's not a real dog in the picture.

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 9:04 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Ooooh... I just love me some physics chat! I'm not even kidding. I'm a pig in shit, even with the morbid subject.

We are strange ones.

LOL! Thanks for including yourself in that.

Quote:

Are there any PHDs in physic out here that can help me out.
Well... my PhD is in geophysics. If that ain't close enough, my undergrad degree was physics and math. As a bonus, I've been interviewing for a job teaching high school physics (research doesn't do it for me) and I've guest taught two classes lately. One was a general intro to gravity, and one was - you guessed it - projectile motion. So, oddly, I've spent some time reviewing this stuff lately. Didn't want to look like an idiot in front of a bunch of really bright kids.

So, anyhow, the equal and opposite reaction thing... the reaction can be a force, but it doesn't have to be. The force of gravity on my body is equalled by the force of this chair pushing up, but if there's no chair the reaction to the force of gravity will be me falling.

So, a general way to solve mechanics problems (mechanics - forces acting on masses) is to sum up all the forces, and any that are unbalanced make the mass move according to F=ma. Air drag on a projectile is unbalanced - it can't have an equal and opposite force, because the projectile has nothing to push against, like I have the chair and the chair has the floor.

Your example of a hand out a car window is different - the hand is, I presume, attached to your arm, which is attached to your body, and your body is braced against the car seat. So you can push back against the air drag and stop it from moving your hand.

Good lord, I'm such a high school teacher. :p


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 11:04 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:


So, anyhow, the equal and opposite reaction thing... the reaction can be a force, but it doesn't have to be. The force of gravity on my body is equalled by the force of this chair pushing up, but if there's no chair the reaction to the force of gravity will be me falling.

So, a general way to solve mechanics problems (mechanics - forces acting on masses) is to sum up all the forces, and any that are unbalanced make the mass move according to F=ma. Air drag on a projectile is unbalanced - it can't have an equal and opposite force, because the projectile has nothing to push against, like I have the chair and the chair has the floor.




I understand what your saying, but in the case of removing the chair the forces are still equally opposed. The gravitational force the earth exerts on the person is equal to the gravitation force the persons mass exerts on the earth. Once again we can see from F=ma that if the force(F)is equal, and lets assume for example purposes that F=1. Then our equation becomes 1=ma or a=1/m. Because the Earth's mass is exponentially greater than the person, the acceleration of the person towards the earth is much greater than the earths acceleration towards the person. In your example there's no difference between the chair exerting a force on the person and my example of the air exerting a force on the puppy. The only difference is that your example starts out as an example of Statics where the force results in an opposed static reaction force, and when the chair is removed becomes Dynamics where the reaction force results in an acceleration. F=ma is a result of Newton's II law of motion which states "A particle acted on by an unbalanced force (F) experiences an acceleration(a) that has the same direction as the force and a magnitude that is directly proportional to the force". This law doesn't say that unbalanced forces aren't equally opposed, it means the reaction to the force is acceleration of of the particle.

Sounds to me like we are in agreement, but for others reading this it's a good thing that you pointed out that the flying puppy is a case of unbalanced forces even though that is implied by the use of F=ma.

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:17 AM

TANKOBITE


May bit a bit late and a bit off topic, but when I saw this picture I figured it should be posted here.



Good dog.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
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