REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Israelis Create Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, January 28, 2008 15:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3414
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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Nothing like building a wall around a whole bunch of ethnically different people and then slowly starving them to death, eh?
Quote:

At least 50,000 people poured from Gaza into Egypt on Wednesday to buy food and fuel after Palestinians blew holes in the border wall, according to the Egyptian Foreign Ministry. The exodus came after Israel closed all its Gaza border crossings Friday to punish Gaza's Hamas leadership following days of rocket attacks on southern Israel.



---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:37 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Question for you Signy,
were you one of the advocates of partitioning Iraq into three religion based areas? Not saying you wanted to starve anyone per se, just let all three fend for themselves right?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes. And Israel needs to recognize a Palestinian state, treat it as a foreign power, and give back the land it stole in 1948 and 1967. (The land the England took from the Palestinians in 1918 is a lost cause already.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes. And Israel needs to recognize a Palestinian state, treat it as a foreign power, and give back the land it stole in 1948 and 1967. (The land the England took from the Palestinians in 1918 is a lost cause already.)

There’s already a Palestinian State which Israel recognizes. If you’re talking about a Palestinian State among the disputed territories in Israel well treating that as a foreign power would be declaring war on it, after it invades Israel with Hamas suicide bombers and barrages Israel with Hamas rockets, which would end with Israeli occupation. So exactly how is that different?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:26 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes. And Israel needs to recognize a Palestinian state, treat it as a foreign power, and give back the land it stole in 1948 and 1967. (The land the England took from the Palestinians in 1918 is a lost cause already.)


Say there was an anti-american faction in Mexico who wanted Texas back. They continually lob missles into the U.S. and the Mexican government seems unable or unwilling to stop this faction. Would it be prudent to close the border and try to put pressure on the Mexican governmnet to stop these attacks? Should the U.S. just give Texas back and hope that the violence will cease?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Best put on an asbestos suit there, after pointing out that obvious parallel, given how folks react to me or Jack doing it.

-F

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Lemme get this straight, Finn ?

Someone invades YOUR land, claims it as their own, and when you try to take it back now you're "invading" their country ?

When does that make sense ?

-F

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:40 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Say there was an anti-american faction in Mexico who wanted Texas back. They continually lob missles into the U.S. and the Mexican government seems unable or unwilling to stop this faction. Would it be prudent to close the border and try to put pressure on the Mexican governmnet to stop these attacks? Should the U.S. just give Texas back and hope that the violence will cease?

Also we shouldn't forget that in this analogy the Mexican Government would have to be a faction involved in the attacks. The Gaza Strip Government is lead by Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:44 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lemme get this straight, Finn ?

Someone invades YOUR land, claims it as their own, and when you try to take it back now you're "invading" their country ?

When does that make sense ?

It doesn’t, which is the problem here. Israel didn’t invade in 1948 - it was invaded. And in 1967, Egypt, Jordan and Syria provoked war with Israel. Israel would have been perfectly fine with its territory had it been left alone, but it wins territory in defensive wars and you think they should give it back. So yes, when does that make sense?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:45 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The Gaza Strip Government is lead by Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.


It should be noted that since completion of the wall the number and severity of terrorist attacks from Gaza has dropped dramatically.

I also note for the record that Gaza borders Egypt, so a portion of the wall was built with Egyption straw.

H

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes. And Israel needs to recognize a Palestinian state, treat it as a foreign power, and give back the land it stole in 1948 and 1967. (The land the England took from the Palestinians in 1918 is a lost cause already.)


Say there was an anti-american faction in Mexico who wanted Texas back. They continually lob missles into the U.S. and the Mexican government seems unable or unwilling to stop this faction. Would it be prudent to close the border and try to put pressure on the Mexican governmnet to stop these attacks? Should the U.S. just give Texas back and hope that the violence will cease?



Israel is a bully. No wonder the Palestinians hate them so much.

Israel constantly does stuff like this, but where is the outcry?

Where is the mention of the suffering of an entire nation (Palestine) when Israel creates situations like this?

As to the Mexican/American discourse.... This is actually a good point. As most any red-blooded American would say "The hell with this, lets invade!"
However....The situation is different. A lot different.

The Israelis are occupying land that was gifted to them by other foreign "bully" powers.

Its too late to give the land back. It would just spur Hammas and the like to try and gain more.

So we have this situation:

-Israel didn't have a right to exist in the first place, but it does now exist. We can't relocate the Israelis to someplace where they wouldnt bother anyone. (The Antarctic perhaps?) So they are there to stay.

- The Palestinians want their land back. But they won't get it. Maybe parts of Gaza, but thats about all. Some will continue to blow themselves up, fire rockets ect in a vain attempt to strike a blow against Israel.

- So now what? 2 states? Some in both camps will continue to carry on guerilla ops against each other. The fighting will never end.

As Americans, I think we need to seriously consider if this is really our problem. Is it worth the money and time we throw at it?

Personally, I think we should cut off all foreign aid. Wait until both sides run out of American money, and let them come to us. Tell them that relief and aid will start again, once there is a truce declared and peace has lasted for no less than one year.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:48 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lemme get this straight, Finn ?

Someone invades YOUR land, claims it as their own, and when you try to take it back now you're "invading" their country ?

When does that make sense ?

-F


If a Wyandot or Huron native wanted his home back which included your present day house, would you give it back?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:56 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Israel is a bully. No wonder the Palestinians hate them so much.

Israel constantly does stuff like this, but where is the outcry?

Where is the mention of the suffering of an entire nation (Palestine) when Israel creates situations like this?


And who voted Hamas into power?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Say there was an anti-american faction in Mexico who wanted Texas back.
And say that in the interests of world convenience, Russia decides to "give Texas back". Now say that American Texans fight the Mexican occupation of their land, and Mexico builds a wall around Texas and starves them out....

Finn- the whole "They started it" belongs in kindergarten. In fact, ENGLAND started it in their "Palestinian Mandate" in 1918 and Zionists pushed it forward by breaking the immigration limit by hundreds of thousands of people. Or perhaps you haven't read anything of the founding of Israel? Apparently not, or you wouldn't even have started that stupid, stupid argument.
Quote:

And who voted Hamas into power?
Strangely, the people of Gaza. I should call you BigDamnKnow-nothing, 'cause really... you don't.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:20 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

And who voted Hamas into power?
Strangely, the people of Gaza. I should call you BigDamnKnow-nothing, 'cause really... you don't.


I know Palestinians voted Hamas into power.
I believe foreign nations made it clear that a vote for Hamas meant less or no foreign aid so in effect, they made their bed...

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I believe foreign nations made it clear that a vote for Hamas meant less or no foreign aid so in effect, they made their bed...
Yeah so much for democracy in the Middle East, eh? But I'm not talking about "foreign aid". I'm talking about Israel blocking food from an entire walled-in population. Gee, where have I heard that story before?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:32 AM

YELLOWJACKET


As a point of curiosity, of the people posting in this thread, how many of you have lived or are currently living in Israel, Gaza or Egypt?


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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:38 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Yeah so much for democracy in the Middle East, eh?


If Al Qaeda or the Taliban were in the running of the next Afghanistan election, would you have a problem with that? What if the Nazi party ran candidates in the next German election? Even if elected, do you want a country being run by a party who openly state genocide as their number one priority?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If Al Qaeda or the Taliban were in the running of the next Afghanistan election, would you have a problem with that? What if the Nazi party ran candidates in the next German election?
I don't think we should be limiting who runs. After all, even we've got a seriously nutty religious zealot running for prez, neh? And his agenda goes directly against our Constitution. (Not that I'm sayin' your prejudiced against other religions or anything.) And if a radical party garners a large vote, that means there're some serious unaddressed problems.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:17 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

- So now what? 2 states? Some in both camps will continue to carry on guerilla ops against each other. The fighting will never end.


I say we nuke the site from orbit- only way to be sure.

Hicksisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If a Wyandot or Huron native wanted his home back which included your present day house, would you give it back?
Prolly not. But I wouldn't be pretending I was "the victim" either, and whining for moral support. And I don't think I'd be building a wall around them and starving 'em out either.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:20 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

- So now what? 2 states? Some in both camps will continue to carry on guerilla ops against each other. The fighting will never end.


I say we nuke the site from orbit- only way to be sure.



HA! But then where would all the fundementalist Christians make their pilgrimage?

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


HA! But then where would all the fundementalist Christians make their pilgrimage?

It would have to be an internal journey- as it was always intended.

Buddahboyisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN
Quote:

It doesn’t, which is the problem here. Israel didn’t invade in 1948 - it was invaded.
What part of "England gave Palestinian land ... land that was not theirs to give... to the Zionists. And the Palestinians didn't roll over and accept it" do you fail to understand?



---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


HA! But then where would all the fundementalist Christians make their pilgrimage?

It would have to be an internal journey- as it was always intended.

Buddahboyisall




A-Firmative

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


HA! But then where would all the fundementalist Christians make their pilgrimage?

It would have to be an internal journey- as it was always intended.

Buddahboyisall




A-Firmative

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:44 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
FINN
Quote:

It doesn’t, which is the problem here. Israel didn’t invade in 1948 - it was invaded.
What part of "England gave Palestinian land ... land that was not theirs to give... to the Zionists. And the Palestinians didn't roll over and accept it" do you fail to understand?





I dunno ya create a tiny little regional crisis and everybody points the finger. It seemed like a good idea at the time. (TM)

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You've helped me along on my own internal journey towards enlightnement. Or at least happiness.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

If a Wyandot or Huron native wanted his home back which included your present day house, would you give it back?

Actually had to think on that a bit... yanno..

I believe I would invite him to dinner and discuss it between ourselves, privately.

PEOPLE can solve just about everything, Governments are notoriously unable to solve almost anything.

But that's my take on it.
YMMV

-F

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:05 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


"Democratically elected"...ha ha ha..just like Saddam used to get 99.9% of the vote? Very democratic I'm sure. Fucking Hamas murderers terrorize their own people. They force children...fucking children to carry out their suicide murders...some children have been caught crying for their mommies before they blow up Israeli kids in a pizzeria. All their Arab "brothers" don't do jack shit to help them, and they're all the ones that caused the bad situation for the Palestinians in the first place. Before that Arafat STOLE all the fucking money that was EVER sent to help these sad helpless people. They should all just walk into Egypt as they're doing, and rest into Syria...let's see what their fellow Muslims do for them....or are they ONLY good as useful idiots for killing Israeli women & children?


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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:11 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

If a Wyandot or Huron native wanted his home back which included your present day house, would you give it back?

Actually had to think on that a bit... yanno..

I believe I would invite him to dinner and discuss it between ourselves, privately.

PEOPLE can solve just about everything, Governments are notoriously unable to solve almost anything.

But that's my take on it.
YMMV

-F




What happens if he still wants it back though? Not everything can be negotiated, especially if people have a deep long term relationship with the land.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
or are they ONLY good as useful idiots for killing Israeli women & children?


It was a bad time for everybody, Rambo.

Trautmanisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"Democratically elected"...ha ha ha..just like Saddam used to get 99.9% of the vote? Very democratic I'm sure. Fucking Hamas murderers terrorize their own people. They force children...fucking children to carry out their suicide murders...some children have been caught crying for their mommies before they blow up Israeli kids in a pizzeria. All their Arab "brothers" don't do jack shit to help them, and they're all the ones that caused the bad situation for the Palestinians in the first place. Before that Arafat STOLE all the fucking money that was EVER sent to help these sad helpless people. They should all just walk into Egypt as they're doing, and rest into Syria...let's see what their fellow Muslims do for them....or are they ONLY good as useful idiots for killing Israeli women & children?
And here we have Jongsstraw doing his best imitation of a Xtian Jihadist... and doing a damn fine job of it, too.



---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:15 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

"Democratically elected"...ha ha ha..just like Saddam used to get 99.9% of the vote? Very democratic I'm sure. Fucking Hamas murderers terrorize their own people. They force children...fucking children to carry out their suicide murders...some children have been caught crying for their mommies before they blow up Israeli kids in a pizzeria. All their Arab "brothers" don't do jack shit to help them, and they're all the ones that caused the bad situation for the Palestinians in the first place. Before that Arafat STOLE all the fucking money that was EVER sent to help these sad helpless people. They should all just walk into Egypt as they're doing, and rest into Syria...let's see what their fellow Muslims do for them....or are they ONLY good as useful idiots for killing Israeli women & children?

And here we have Jongsstraw doing his best imitation of a Xtian Jihadist... and doing a damn fine job of it, too.


Right again a-hole...but not quite as good as the job you're doing as an idiot terrorist lover. The only people in the world who don't know or cannot see the truth in that situation are Jew-haters, terrorists, and the insane.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The only people in the world who don't know or cannot see the truth in that situation are Jew-haters, terrorists, and the insane.
Enough with the imitation bigotry already!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Fletch,

Big difference between trying, and failing...
And failing to try.

Sure, some things can't, some folks won't, ain't no excuse for not even tryin.

Isreals actions put me of mind of Patiences actions during the Mal-Patience showdown in Serenity, he gave her EVERY chance to do the right thing, but she wanted what she wanted, and be damned to them in the way.

They can sort it however the hell they like, really, I just wish the hell the FedGov wasn't extorting from my paycheck to finance it.

THAT pisses me off.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
They can sort it however the hell they like, really, I just wish the hell the FedGov wasn't extorting from my paycheck to finance it.


Well said. See, this point can be made without resorting to namecalling or citing Nazi Zionist Conspiracy.

Now me, I disagree. Like Frem I don't like them taking my money to finance this. However, I see the US commitment to Isreal to be very important to American interests and character, especially since it was the United States that pushed the whole 'creation of Isreal' business through after it had been sitting on the shelf at the League of Nations since 1918.

Looking at the decision, it seems leaders of the time, despite misgivings and reservations and a natural anti-semitic bias felt compelled to act because of what happened to the Jews in Europe. Many felt something was owed and there was a fear that without the protections of a soveriegn Jewish state the chance of a continuation and compounding of the tragedy (by Stalin) was a strong possibility, one not so easily corrected or prevented.

Perhaps it might be wise for some of you to read Truman's thoughts on the subject.

H

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:14 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Fletch,

Big difference between trying, and failing...
And failing to try.

Sure, some things can't, some folks won't, ain't no excuse for not even tryin.



Completely agree but if the indian guy essentially says he wants it back and cant be bargained with what would YOU do? Whould you accept th essential validity of his claim and give him his land back or would you defend what you see as your property?

Indian land was taken by the US government and given to settlers. You have stated in the past that you disagree with things like eminent domain. If you do then wasn't any land west of the 13 colonies taken illegally and shouldn't the indians get their land back?

Kinda curious.


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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Jongstraw....

Just a quick question. Are you jewish? Is this why you insist on taking such a personal offense against anyone disagreeing with Israel?

It might help to have a better discourse with you if people understood your motivations....

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Indian land was taken by the US government and given to settlers. You have stated in the past that you disagree with things like eminent domain. If you do then wasn't any land west of the 13 colonies taken illegally and shouldn't the indians get their land back?
Yes it was taken illegally, and usually at the point of a gun. But how do you right old wrongs (like slavery) when the current population had nothing to do with old grievances? (For example, nobody from my family was here before 1900, so....) This is a real question and bears directly on the current problem.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:07 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Jongstraw....

Just a quick question. Are you jewish?




Are you making a list or something.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
This is a real question and bears directly on the current problem.



...not if you can derail the discussion with bad analogies, or claims of emotionalism or anti-Zionism and such.
Palistinians had their land took from them- in recent, living memory- and they deserve to get some back, period.
How peeps cannot see this is just lack of logic skills.
Or meanness.

Bottom-lining Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Fletch,

I honestly doubt we couldn't work something out, but assuming for the moment the guy was bonkers enough to be that extreme about it ?

In the end... no, if it's an all or nothing thing with him and he will not negotiate then I would defend it, sure.

That whole mess went down long before either one of us was born, we can only take responsibility for actions WE have committed in our own lifetimes, is my way of looking at it.

It's not like I went over into his land and built a house on it, then started moving the fence further out, either, which is happening within the lifetimes of the folk over there.

Pondering this, imma make a relative note in the L&A thread, on something that just came to mind, however.

Not that I would feel all that great about doing so, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie to ya, nope - remember I pointed out the desperation factor that caused the initial blowup that has lead to this lunacy, comes a time when you CAN indeed have two mutually-exclusive "right" answers and folks killin each other over em, the world ain't perfect, and prolly ain't ever gonna be.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yeah, over 200 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza THIS YEAR. Best to treat them like civilized folk and act as if everything's all right.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:38 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Palistinians had their land took from them- in recent, living memory- and they deserve to get some back, period.
How peeps cannot see this is just lack of logic skills.
Or meanness.




Ehud Barack and Bill Clinton offered Arafat exactly what you say the Palestinians "deserve" and Arafat turned it down. The reason he turned it down is because it's not land they want, they want to kill all the Jews or remove them from the region.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:50 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

As a point of curiosity, of the people posting in this thread, how many of you have lived or are currently living in Israel, Gaza or Egypt?
Negative for me. (The most I've done is visited Egypt for 2 weeks.)

However, here are a couple of websites documenting Israeli human rights violations from people who live there.

Quote:

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=263&type=news

Courage to Refuse Calls: Refuse to Shoot at Gaza’s Civilians 23/06/2006

...We call IDF soldiers - pilots, navy officers and combatant and soldiers serving in the artillery units to refuse to shoot at Gaza.

IDF’s shooting at Gaza has already killed dozens of innocent civilians, among them young children, and achieved nothing but the an increase in the number of Kassam missiles fired at southern Israel from Gaza and an escalation in Palestinian hate and violence towards Israel. The IDF Shooting and bombardment of crowded residential areas in Gaza is a war crime that jeopardizes Israel’s morality and security.



Quote:


http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/20080121_Increase_of_sanctio
n_on_Gaza.asp


21.1.08: Israeli and Palestinian organizations petition High Court to resume fuel supply to Gaza

...The power station supplies electricity to institutions that provide vital services to the residents, such as Shifa Hospital (the largest hospital in the Gaza Strip), the sewage treatment facility in Gaza City, and dozens of wells, sewage pumps, medical clinics, and schools. The hospitals have generators, but they are unable to produce the requisite amount of electricity, and the interruption in power supply causes a variety of malfunctions, inevitably harming the patients. The residents also suffer severe cutbacks in water supply. In Gaza City, for example, the residents do not have running water eight hours a day.



--------------------------
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs.
--Gandhi, Gandhi's Collected Works, Vol 74 (1938)

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:52 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
The reason he turned it down is because it's not land they want, they want to kill all the Jews or remove them from the region.

Well, some, you know, residual anger is understandable....
(that was not serious)

Just shoot anyone holding a gun on either side then.
(neither was that)

I have no answers.
(that was serious)

Politically lost Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:59 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


I honestly doubt we couldn't work something out, but assuming for the moment the guy was bonkers enough to be that extreme about it ?

In the end... no, if it's an all or nothing thing with him and he will not negotiate then I would defend it, sure.





Why is he the one that is being bonkers? Just a question here? From his standpoint he's the owner and from yours you are. Depending on point of view you are both right. So why is his view bonkers? Surely it can be no more bonkers than yours?

Can it?

Quote:






Not that I would feel all that great about doing so, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie to ya, nope - remember I pointed out the desperation factor that caused the initial blowup that has lead to this lunacy, comes a time when you CAN indeed have two mutually-exclusive "right" answers and folks killin each other over em, the world ain't perfect, and prolly ain't ever gonna be.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it



No that essentially is my take on the problem too. A lot of arguments have two sides that are equally valid when viewed from one perspective or the other. That's why the stickiest and most divisive arguments a society gets into are when two different sets of rights come into conflict.

That is why I don't trust any explanation that either says that we will never get those kinds of conflicts or that people will be adult enough to always deal with them.





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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:12 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I have no answers.
(that was serious)

Well, there are no easy answers, that is for sure.

However, I have been following the work of Father Elias Chacour, who has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for his work in the region. He is a Palestinian Melkite Priest (Orthodox Christian) who has built several schools and one university in Israel. His "answer" is to encourage new generations of Arabs, Jews, and Christians to learn together and play together, so that when they grow up, they are less likely to kill each other.

He focuses on education because generations of Palestinians have grown up without adequate education. Lack of education breeds hopelessness, and hopelessness breeds violence. He talks about it more in his book, Blood Brothers. (It's a great eye-opener, for anyone who is interested in the history of the conflict. His perspective as a Palestinian Christian is very unique.)

--------------------------
I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time.
--Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:20 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:


Lack of education breeds hopelessness, and hopelessness breeds violence.



That is the one constant in hate and prejudice & when we learn that our brothers and sisters on this planet are REALLY our brothers and sisters, with the same basic programs and sub-routines as us, we are less likely to go "oh well..." when they go hungry or face horrendous times.



Humbleisall

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