REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is Mormonism Christian?

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2007 18:42
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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 10:07 AM

SUCCATASH


Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?

From what I understand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. But Christian churches and denominations do not consider Mormonism to be Christian.

But in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?

Is it all relative? Are we doomed to listen to Christians and Mormons argue for all eternity?

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 10:22 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian?



Yes, though definitely a third-party revision of the rules.

Quote:

Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?


Comparative Theology scholars.

Quote:

From what I understand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. But Christian churches and denominations do not consider Mormonism to be Christian.


In much the same way that there are many people who do not consider Catholics to be Christian.

Quote:

But in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?


Yes.

Quote:

Is it all relative?


Yes. Mormonism is at least an Abrahamic religion if not a variant of Christianity.

Quote:

Are we doomed to listen to Christians and Mormons argue for all eternity?


I'm up for theocide if you are but otherwise yes we are doomed.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 10:29 AM

SUCCATASH


"In much the same way that there are many people who do not consider Catholics to be Christian."

I've never heard of that. Who says Catholics aren't Christian? I'm fairly certain that all the Christian Protestant denominations accept the Catholic baptism and consider it valid. But none of them accept the Mormon baptism.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 10:56 AM

STORYMARK


They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 11:25 AM

RALLEM


Where the Mormon religion differs in the eyes of the Mormons is that a family whose name I cannot remember escaped to South America on a boat per God's instructions after they murdered someone who persecuted them. Cut to a few generations after the crucifixion of Christ and his resurrection he told one of his disciples that there was another flock for him to teach to and in the eyes of the Mormons that other flock was the descendents of the family who escaped to South America, and thus the New Testament to Christ.


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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 11:39 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.




This seems like the only reasonable way to define Christianity. If they believe that Jesus was the son of God, their Christians.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 11:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Reminds me of Scientology, but based on Christ instead of space aliens.

Only knew 1 family of Mormans, and that was when I was a kid, growing up. Decent enough , but I thought it odd they couldn't drink sodas. And they had a large family, so I guess they're kinda like Catholics.

Least that's how I saw them.



"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 11:58 AM

RALLEM


I was engaged to a Mormon woman and converted to their faith for a short while, but after my relationship with the woman broke up so did my relationship with the church. I went back to being a Lutherin for a while but now I just consider myself a Christian and do not go to any churches at all.

While in College and studying World History I discoved that one of Christ's lessons was stricken from our bible because it taught that churches were unimportant. If I remember correctly Christ said something to the effect that to be a Christian all one needed was the spirit of Christ in their heart.


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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 12:20 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
While in College and studying World History I discoved that one of Christ's lessons was stricken from our bible because it taught that churches were unimportant. If I remember correctly Christ said something to the effect that to be a Christian all one needed was the spirit of Christ in their heart.

Reference Gospel of Thomas the Doubter.
Quote:

The Gospel of Thomas is a manuscript containing a collection of sayings of Jesus that was discovered among a hoard of ancient manuscripts at Nag Hammadi in Egypt in 1945. There are references to the work in early Christian writings, but historians assumed it had been lost. The writing is not a "gospel" in the strictest sense, because there is no connecting narrative about the life of Jesus, no summaries of his teachings, and no theological interpretations and commentary, as for example in the Gospel of John. Thomas is simply a list of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus (called logoi, "words") not arranged in any chronological or topical order. Some of the sayings closely parallel sayings that appear in the Gospels, some are similar, and nearly half appear nowhere in Scripture.

http://www.cresourcei.org/thomas.html
Quote:

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."


http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 12:40 PM

HIXIE129


1) George Bush thinks he gets to decide what is Christian.

2) Mormons fall into the category of door to door salesmen; They often get mistaken for door to door vacuum cleaner sales people.

3) You don’t have to listen to them for all eternity; just don’t open your door when they ring the bell.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:02 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Hixie129:
1) George Bush thinks he gets to decide what is Christian.

2) Mormons fall into the category of door to door salesmen; They often get mistaken for door to door vacuum cleaner sales people.

3) You don’t have to listen to them for all eternity; just don’t open your door when they ring the bell.




What if Bush is the one that gets to decide "what is Christian". If he decides that Mormons are Christians but Catholics aren't, can he still be the antichrist.

Has there ever been a thread in RWED where Bush didn't get trashed for no apparent reason.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:16 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Hixie129:
1) George Bush thinks he gets to decide what is Christian.

2) Mormons fall into the category of door to door salesmen; They often get mistaken for door to door vacuum cleaner sales people.

3) You don’t have to listen to them for all eternity; just don’t open your door when they ring the bell.



You have some serious issues to deal with.


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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:18 PM

HIXIE129


He can be whatever he wants...

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:20 PM

HIXIE129


Rallen

That must have been one good looking Mormon woman for you to change Gods....

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Jong, cool it with the sock puppetry, you ain't foolin no one and you look like an idiot.

As for the topic at hand...

Again, my very simple rule, easy to remember, easy to practice.

I don't care a whit what someone believes, I care what they DO.

It really ain't simpler than that.

Mosta the Mormon folk I've met are pretty decent, even if they do wince when I get on a rant, apparently they try to avoid vices and harsh language, but they're pretty tolerant of mine as my hearts in the right place even when my mouth ain't... lol.

-Frem

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:46 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
I've never heard of that. Who says Catholics aren't Christian?



AntiMason comes to mind, not sure if he doesn't think they are Christian but he definitely doesn't seem to consider them to be good Christians.

P.S. Anti if you read this and I have mis-represented your views please let me know.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:56 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Hixie129:
Rallen

That must have been one good looking Mormon woman for you to change Gods....



LOL, it's true. Utah is so FULL of very very hot Mormon gals.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 2:01 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't care a whit what someone believes, I care what they DO.

Have you noticed that fundies all ACT alike? They all dispute dogma vehemently, condemn everyone who disagrees viciously, and seek to have the rest of the world conform to their beliefs? It doesn't matter if they are Fundie Christian, Fundie Muslim, Fundie Jew, or Fundie Vegetarian. What they believe doesn't matter at all--they all ACT the same way.

The only people who think Mormons aren't Christians are Fundies who have a very narrow definition of what Christian means. They will tell you no one but those who accept Jesus as their personal savior AND believe everything they believe are Christians.

Bastards. (Not Mormons, the Fundies.)

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 2:06 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.




This seems like the only reasonable way to define Christianity. If they believe that Jesus was the son of God, their Christians.



But Mormons believe that if they do all the right things, they will become God of their own world. They don't consider Jesus to be God in the typical Christian view of the Trinity. To them, Jesus is the physical son of God, a completely separate entity. Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. God was once a man, like us, but he lived on another planet. Access to heaven comes from good works - I don't know, none of this sounds very Christian to me. It actually sounds quite blasphemous from a Christian standpoint and I can understand why other Christians don't let them into their club.

When their very definitions of God, Jesus, access to heaven, and eternal life, - and our origins - all differ greatly from other Christians, can they still accurately use the term 'Christian' ?

Hmm


"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:01 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.




This seems like the only reasonable way to define Christianity. If they believe that Jesus was the son of God, their Christians.



But Mormons believe that if they do all the right things, they will become God of their own world. They don't consider Jesus to be God in the typical Christian view of the Trinity. To them, Jesus is the physical son of God, a completely separate entity. Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. God was once a man, like us, but he lived on another planet. Access to heaven comes from good works - I don't know, none of this sounds very Christian to me. It actually sounds quite blasphemous from a Christian standpoint and I can understand why other Christians don't let them into their club.

When their very definitions of God, Jesus, access to heaven, and eternal life, - and our origins - all differ greatly from other Christians, can they still accurately use the term 'Christian' ?

Hmm


"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."




If that's truly what they believe...... then we WERE created by aliens.

Who woulda thunk it?


Catholicgirlisall.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


DON'T FREAK OUT

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:06 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Ditto

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:23 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Hixie129:
Rallen

That must have been one good looking Mormon woman for you to change Gods....



I didn't change gods. Why would you even think that let alone say it?


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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:41 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus IS God. They believe that God divided himself, made the newly formed division into a human baby, and lived as a human being. Then, upon dying, this division was re-absorbed into the original whole.

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet. A wise prophet chosen by God to carry his word to the people. They believe that he carries a special place in the prophet lineup, and that he will have an important part of the next world.

Some Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God. A separate entity from God, he was created to be the perfect man, to experience the life of men, and to be persecuted by men. In his death, by forgiving mankind, he enabled God to likewise forgive mankind.

Some Christians believe that Jesus is the last prophet given to us before the end times. Some Christians believe that prophets came after Jesus. Some Christians believe that Jesus showed each of us how to be our own prophet.

Some Christians believe that you can talk to God directly. Some Christians believe that you can only talk to God through Jesus. Some Christians believe that you need a Saint to carry your message to God and to intercede on your behalf.

Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors. Mormons are one such flavor.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Erm... Who cares?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:05 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God. A separate entity from God, he was created to be the perfect man, to experience the life of men, and to be persecuted by men. In his death, by forgiving mankind, he enabled God to likewise forgive mankind.



Yep, that sounds more of the Catholic fate. The Holy Trinity and all.

Quote:

Some Christians believe that you can talk to God directly.


Me, believe me there was a time in my life when that belief came in handy.

Quote:

Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors.

--Anthony



*snort* Thank God I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.


And Sig some of us care, and some don't, but that's alright, variety is the spice of life, otherwise it'd be bland and boiled and boring.



~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


DON'T FREAK OUT

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:18 PM

RALLEM


I do talk to God directly, but I always close my prayers by saying that what I said was through my friend, lord, and savior Jesus Christ.


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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:29 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe....

Some Christians believe....

Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors. Mormons are one such flavor.



Since there are so many flavors, can you please tell me the names of just a few recognized Christian churches/denominations that believe what you describe? I haven't heard of them and I'm curious.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:43 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Recognized by whom, Succatash? That might influence the size of the list.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:49 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Erm... Who cares?



LOL, I think LOTS of people are obsessed with this question.

MORMONS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm


MORMONS ARE CHRISTIANS!
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Christian.shtml

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:55 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Recognized by whom, Succatash? That might influence the size of the list.



I guess I'm just wondering what church/denomination you are talking about after each "Some Christians..." above.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 4:59 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


While we prepare to discuss the validity or importance of ‘recognizing’ religions, let’s begin to answer your question.

Let’s start with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Here are people who believe that Jesus was a separate creation, independent of God. They believe that their religion represents the true form of Christianity, and no other religion is Christian. Jesus is believed to be God’s first creation, and is thus considered to be an independent entity from God. They believe Jesus was used to create all of Gods other creations. The Holy Spirit is not a person, to them, but God’s active force.

Then we have Catholics, who believe in a divided God. (Trinity.) In their belief, God IS at once the Father, the Son, and the ambiguous Holy Spirit. One entity with three aspects, so to speak.

The Mormons believe in a Godhead, which is similar to the Trinity, but they believe that the Trinity is separate entities who share a single purpose. Thus Jesus is an independent entity. They also believe that prophets came after Jesus, one such prophet founding their religion.

There’s more. So much more. There really are a lot of flavors of Christianity. Even within one group like the Mormons there are subsets with widely differing beliefs.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 5:01 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.



This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 5:14 PM

HIXIE129


Succatash

I believed in the Roman Latin Church that existed during the first Crusade

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 5:49 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There’s more. So much more.



Seriously, Jehova's Witnessess is the best example you have?





"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:17 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Kirkules

"This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god."

Weirdly, we agree. Though I might possibly add the Jews as well. Let me go check the temperature of hell. Just a sec ....

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:59 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


There’s definitely a wide spectrum of religious beliefs within the Christian religion. It’s difficult to find a comprehensive definition on philosophical grounds that is very specific. Perhaps the only thing that all Christian religions have in common is the Bible, which they all interpret differently, but they all accept it as the religious text. This means that of all varied opinions within Christianity, Mormonism is the most extreme and distant, because it is the only one that doesn't rely solely on the Bible as the religious text.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:59 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There’s more. So much more.



Seriously, Jehova's Witnessess is the best example you have?





"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."



I'm sorry, Succatash. What sorts of examples are you looking for?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 7:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.



This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god.



Hello,

This one's a bit dated, I'm afraid. The Ebionites believed that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, but clove closely to his teachings. This differs from common Jewish people, who vaguely recognize Jesus as a prophet, but don't really include any of his teachings into their religion. (More of a P.R. recognition than anything, really.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 7:58 PM

EMPIREX


I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in. As someone who was baptized and raised Lutheran (6 years of parochial school) and then became a Methodist, Christians believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God. He was the Son of God and was God Himself. Here's some links that explain it better:
http://www.creeds.net/
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.church.txt

The Nicene (381 A.D.) creed sums it up:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.


Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, and Evangelicals (I'm sure I'm leaving someone out) all subscribe to this belief. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity and Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the divinity of Christ. Furthermore, both churches subscribe to teachings that were not included in the Bible. The Mormons also "added" to the Bible when they wrote "The Book of Mormon", which, as *I* was taught in parochial school, is a big "no-no". John stated in Revelation 22: 18-19: "...For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..."

I believe that's why Catholics and Protestants do not recognize Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons as being part of "Christ's Church". Like Christianity has roots in Judaism, so the Mormon church and Jehovah Witnesses have roots in Christianity. But Christianity is a separate religion from Judaism. I think the same can be said for Christianity and Mormonism.

At any rate, personally I tip my hat to the Latter-Day Saints. Any church that could reform my cheating, abusive grandfather has to be doing something right.




"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 8:01 PM

EMPIREX


Thought this was interesting.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.church.txt


Quote:

THE NICENE CREED ON THE CHURCH

* We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

[J.S. Bach, a devout Lutheran, wrote a musical setting for the
Liturgy known as the B-minor Mass. In his setting for the words
printed above, there are two melody lines. One is a traditional
Latin plainchant melody, and the other is a traditional Lutheran
chorale melody. They are played and sung simultaneously, and they
interweave and harmonize perfectly.]

The Creed speaks of (1) the Unity of the Church, (2) the Sanctity of
the Church, (3) the Catholicity of the Church, and (4) the
Apostolicity of the Church.

[NOTE: Some versions of the Creed omit the word "holy" in describing
the Church. When the traditional translation of the Creed into
English was made in the 1500's, the oldest available Greek
manuscript of the Creed omitted the word "holy", and therefore the
translators mistakenly supposed that it was a later addition. In
fact it is part of the original Creed, and almost every recent
printing of the Creed includes it.]

(1) The Church is One, and the bonds of Unity are Faith and
Love. Heresy violates the former, and schism the latter. Heretics
violate the unity of the Church by holding to beliefs or practices
that are incompatible with the Gospel that the Church has been
commissioned to proclaim, so that the Church cannot include them in
her fellowship without compromising, diluting, or denying the Gospel
message. Schismatics violate the unity of the Church by requiring
from others, as a condition of fellowship, assent to doctrines or
practices that are not an essential part of the Gospel (though they
may be compatible with it). We ought therefore to ask ourselves:
"Have I sinned against faith by denying or failing to uphold
doctrines essential to the message of the Gospel? Have I sinned
against love by requiring as a condition of Christian fellowship
agreement with me on matters where Christians may differ and still
remain Christians?"

(2) The Church is Holy. Some persons understand this to mean
that individual church members are virtuous -- that you can tell
which group most truly embodies the church by noting which group has
the fewest members who are or ought to be in trouble with the
police. This understanding implies that holiness is something that
we confer upon the Church -- that by working hard to improve our own
personal scores on the Virtue chart we boost the team average. But
the older idea is that Holiness is something that the Church confers
upon us -- that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Holy, and that He has
called us to holiness in Him, and that He brings us into fellowship
with Him through the community of believers, by the Sacraments, by
the preaching of the Gospel message, by the mutual love and
fellowship of the community, by experience of praying and being
prayed for, of learning and teaching, of forgiving and being
forgiven. We ought therefore to ask ourselves: "Am I opening myself
to God's grace as He makes it available to me through the Chrisian
community? Instead of concentrating on my dissatisfaction with those
persons in the Church who appear to be unsatisfactory channels of
grace, am I looking for, and taking advantage of, whatever spiritual
nourishment is available? Am I, in my turn, being open to being used
by God as a channel of grace to others? Am I making it easier for
them to grow in Christian faith and love? Am I ready to forgive, and
ready fo seek forgiveness of others?

(3) The Church is Catholic. The Greek word KATHOLIKOS comes
from KATA (a preposition with various meanings depending on the
context, often meaning "down" or "negative" as in "catabolic" or
"catastrophe" or "cathode," but also often meaning "according to")
and HOLOS (meaning "whole" as in "holistic medicine," which claims
to treat the whole patient and not just the particular ailment
complained of), and thus means, literally, "according to the whole."
The meaning of the word as applied to the Church has evolved.

Probably the first Christians to use the term were simply
distinguishing the entire Church worldwide from particular
congregations. If you said something about the Church, they would
ask, "Do you mean the Church in Corinth, or the Church Catholic?"

Around AD 175, Irenaeus of Lyons used it in disputing with the
Gnostics. Many Gnostics claimed that their teaching was "the real
Gospel." They said that Christ had had two messages. The first
message, called "exoteric Christianity," was his message preached to
the ordinary man, who was not very "spiritual," and was capable of
understanding only a very simple message. The second message, called
"esoteric Christianity," was told only to a chosen few who had shown
themselves worthy of it, and was concealed from the masses, because
they would only misunderstand and pervert it, and would persecute
the chosen few who were sufficiently elevated spiritually and
intellectually to be able to understand it. For a modern parallel,
look for the advertisements of the Rosicrucians (AMORC). They
advertise in a large range of magazines, at one time including the
National Geographic. Their pitch is that they are a secret society
that has existed since ancient times, and that Socrates, Archimedes,
Galileo, Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin, and other respected men
now safely dead were all members. No proof, of course. It is a
secret society. They say, "Our message cannot be entrusted to the
masses, but only to those who after careful examination are found
worthy to learn it. So send us twenty big ones and we will spill our
guts."

In replying to the Gnostics, Irenaeus argued that Christians
have never had a secret doctrine in the Gnostic sense. He argues
that Christ had no secrets from The Twelve (John 15:15), that the
Twelve accepted Paul as one of themselves (2 Peter 3:15), and that
both Paul (Acts 20:26f) and the original Twelve (Matthew 28:20) were
under strict commandment to pass on to their converts all that they
had been taught. The Gospel, the whole Gospel, is to be declared to
all men. All are called to a saving knowledge of God in Christ. In
this sense, the Church is Catholic, in contrast both with
pre-Christian Israel and with the Gnostics.

Irenaeus goes on to say: If Christ did have a special message,
you would expect him to entrust it to his apostles, and you would
expect the apostles to entrust it to the leaders of the
congregations they founded. If we look in cities that are mentioned
in the New Testament as places where the Apostles preached, such as
Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Corinth, or Ephesus, or Rome, we find that
in each of them there is a Christian congregation, headed by a
bishop who is part of an unbroken and orderly line of bishops going
back to the time when the Church in that city was first established
by an apostle. Moreover, we find, if we do a little comparing, that
the Church in Ephesus and its bishop teach the same doctrines as the
Church in Antioch and its bishop. Thus, we have the Church as a
world-wide community, with each local congregation agreeing in
doctrine with the other congregations spread throughout the world,
and also with its predecessor reaching back in time to the Apostles
and through them to Christ Himself.

(4) The Church is Apostolic. That is to say, it is the
community that Christ founded with the Apostles as nucleus. We read
of the first Christian converts added to the Church at Jerusalem
that "the continued steadfast in the apostles' teaching and
fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and the prayers." (Acts
2:42) In order to be a Christian, it is not enough to be in the
Apostles' teaching. You must also be in the Apostles' fellowship.
The Church is a group, just as the Scouts are a group. Suppose that
someone found a Boy Scout Manual, and read it, and said, "I like
this!" Suppose that he then sat down and memorized the Scout Oath
and the Scout Law, and learned to tie 21 different kinds of knots
blindfolded, and how to pitch a tent, and how to swim 25 yards
underwater, and how to read a compass, and all the other things that
a Scout is required to know and to do. Suppose that he further made
a point of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous,
kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Would
it be accurate to say that he was a Scout? I think the answer is
clearly negative. He might be called Scout-like. He would be someone
whom the Scouts would gladly welcome aboard. But until he gets in
contact with the Scout organization and joins up, he is not a Scout.

In like fashion, to be a Christian does not mean simply holding a
certain set of beliefs, even if accompanied by appropriate behavior.
It means belonging to the Christian community, to the Church. When
God sent an angel to the centurion Cornelius (Acts 10), the angel
did not instruct him in Christian doctrine and tell him, "Now, if
you believe what I have just said, that makes you a Christian."
Rather, he told him how to get in touch with the Christian community
by sending a messenger to Peter in Joppa. When Saul was on the road
to Damascus, Christ spoke to him. But He did not instruct Saul in
Christian doctrine. Rather, He told him to go into Damascus and wait
for instructions, and then He sent Ananias, a Christian, to receive
Saul into the Christian community. And one of the marks of that
community is its continuity with the community that Christ founded
and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost.



----------------
Posted by: James E. Kiefer
Source: CHRISTIA File Archives
(for more info send INDEX CHRISTIA to listserv@asuvm.inre.asu.edu)

jab/15-Mar-94





"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 8:07 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

That's a good thrust of Christianity, but I think it leaves out some the people who identified themselves as Christian before a committee redefined and focused what Christianity was. And similarly, it leaves out many people who identify themselves as Christian today.

I think a Christian is best described as someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And that leaves a LOT of room for people who interpret his teachings differently, including those who embrace 'apocryphal' texts.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 7:18 PM

EMPIREX


I can't think of any present-day church that follows the apocryphal texts. Yes, the Gnostics and Arians and Kollyridians considered themselves Christians, but those movements died out (were crushed, or absorbed) when the Church decided on one doctrine.

Quote:

And similarly, it leaves out many people who identify themselves as Christian today.

I think a Christian is best described as someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And that leaves a LOT of room for people who interpret his teachings differently, including those who embrace 'apocryphal' texts.

--Anthony



I'm not sure who the "many people" are that you're refering to. Can you clarify?

I suppose a person could call themselves anything they wanted to. I could read all the books on Judaism, observe the cultural holidays, admire the tenets of the faith and apply them in my daily life, but until I study with a Rabbi and *formally* commit myself to the faith, I am not considered "Jewish" by that religious community.

The original question was:
Quote:

Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian? ... in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?


I think it all depends on your perspective, which side of the line you're standing on. I would imagine that the majority of Christians would not consider Mormons to be part of that group in the strictest sense, then a Buddhist or an atheist might say that they are. But that might be an oversimplification.

So who decides? Beats me!



"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 7:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by EmpireX:
I'm not sure who the "many people" are that you're refering to. Can you clarify?



Hello,

At the risk of repeating myself and angering Succatash with my choice of examples, you said it yourself. The Jehova's Witnesses consider themselves Christian, while most other churches don't.

I also find the caution in Revelations against adding or subtracting from the Bible to be interesting. The Bible, as it appears today, has had a great deal subtracted from it. When the age-old council met to decide what would be included in the Bible, they tossed a lot of texts. One wonders if they are guilty of 'subtracting from' the body of the Bible. Or it could be that the caution in Revelations refers specifically to Revelations itself, and not to the collection of books as a whole.

After all, when Revelations was originally inspired and written, the Bible hadn't been assembled yet in its current form. So what could the author possibly have been referring to?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?


They are "Christian-ish". Kind of like other off-shoots, sub-branches, and cults. Look at those Gay-hating Baptists or the White Supremists or Voodoo (some forms at least). Those are all nominally Christian and in some cases organized and structured churches and practices. I note for the record I am not comparing Mormanism to negative church groups. Personally I think they seem to be mostly fine folk doing their own thing their own way, which is the American way. I suppose less negative examples would be the Amish and Mennonites.

Oh...and your second question: Oddly I get to decide the definition of Christian. Oddly...so do you.

All that said I aint voting for Mitt Romney cause he's a fair weather conservative and seems a bit slimy in that John Kerry kind of way. He can pray how he pleases.

H

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:02 AM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?

From what I understand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. But Christian churches and denominations do not consider Mormonism to be Christian.

But in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?

Is it all relative? Are we doomed to listen to Christians and Mormons argue for all eternity?

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

Short answer: yes.

Long answer:

I always thought that "Christian" was anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Meaning, he was born of a virgin, is the literal son of God, taught his brethren the gospel, died for the sins of man, and was resurrected.

Their first Article of Faith is, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” (Found here: http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/1-13#1.) They clearly state that they believe in Christ, and the fact that is it stated first above other beliefs means that it is the most important thing that they believe in above all else.

And, if someone says that if they believe in something, then it isn’t necessary for a third party to OK it. It is their own belief and doesn’t belong to anyone else. It is their personal choice and is a matter to be handled between only the individual person and God.

How do I know all of this? I am a Mormon. I believe in Christ. I was brought up in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and we proclaim Jesus to be the Son of God. And—personally—I don’t need anyone else to define who I am and what I believe in.

If you have any other questions, don’t be afraid to ask me.

Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
Alles schläft; einsam wacht
Nur das traute hochheilige Paar.
Holder Knabe im lockigen Haar,
Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!
Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!

Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
Hirten erst kundgemacht
Durch der Engel Halleluja,
Tönt es laut von fern und nah:
Christ, der Retter ist da!
Christ, der Retter ist da!

Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
Gottes Sohn, o wie lacht
Lieb' aus deinem göttlichen Mund,
Da uns schlägt die rettende Stund'.
Christ, in deiner Geburt!
Christ, in deiner Geburt!

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:29 AM

KANEMAN


This thread's topic is as valid as posting....Is Tooth-Fairyism Ghostish? Is Uri Geller spoonbendyism magicalish? Is pigsflyism gravitationalish? Read what I just wrote, once more, again.....



Blah..........Well, it's true.......

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:40 AM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors. Mormons are one such flavor.

LOL, good observation! I gotta write that one down!

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 9:22 AM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
At the risk of repeating myself and angering Succatash with my choice of examples...



LOL, no worries about making me angry, I have no real emotions invested in this conversation.

But in the context of "Is Mormonism Christian?", you said your 31 flavors thing, and when I asked you for examples, you answered Jehova's Witnesses and Mormonism.

First, when trying to define Mormonism, you really can't use Mormonism as part of your definition. You basically said, "Yes, Mormonism is Christian because there are a lot of different kinds of Christianity, such as Mormonism." That doesn't really make sense.

Second, and I apologize to any Jehova Witnesses out there - but I don't know anyone who takes Jehova Witnesses seriously.

So I guess I was just disappointed in what I perceived as weak examples.



"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 9:23 AM

RALLEM


Actually I don't believe the church is actually called Mormon and I think that is the title of the book. I think the actual name of the Church is the Later Day Saints of Jesus Christ.


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Thursday, December 6, 2007 11:08 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.



This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god.



Hello,

This one's a bit dated, I'm afraid. The Ebionites believed that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, but clove closely to his teachings. This differs from common Jewish people, who vaguely recognize Jesus as a prophet, but don't really include any of his teachings into their religion. (More of a P.R. recognition than anything, really.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Thanks for the correction. I asked a friend more knowledgeable than myself and he agreed with you. He didn't think that any of those sects still exist but they were definitely Christians. He said that the one thing all Christian have in common is belief in the resurrection. That would be his definition of a Christian.

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