REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 08:06
SHORT URL:
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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:07 AM

CHRISISALL


Pick one.

A) As long as it's limited to wacky protesters getting beat, designated enemy combatants doing goofy nude photos, and the occasional unlucky Joe getting tazed, I see no reason for alarm.

B) When I, personally, experience abuse at the hands of a representative of government at some time.

C) When I, personally, experience abuse at the hands of a representative of government on a daily or weekly basis.

D) After we become a bonafide fascist dictatorship.

E) Any violation of human rights is enough for alarm- best to be aware of/catch these things while they're still relatively small, lest the fangs of fascism close on us while we sleep.

F) I trust that those in authority have only our best interests at heart, and I resent this "poll", and YOU, Commie Chrisisall, AND your tinfoil hat!!


Respect-for-authority-challenged Chrisisall


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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:46 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


LoLoLzzzz

When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?

Just askin, cause my tinfoil-hat ass knows exactly what you're saying, but for that you've invoked a mighty tempest from which the hand of God itself will gracefully emerge and come down upon thee as if in an open handed gesture of friendship.....

Just before it flies straight across your face, in what will go down in history as the bitch slap of the 21st century, while he exclaims "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis!?" in a 20 something Gary Coleman's voice. All for foolishly speaking the Devil's words like that.

I pity the fool who disses the Status Quo!!!!!








DISCLAIMER: The above message brought to you by a person who is of date unconfirmed in any religion but thinks about spirituality and lives every day like there is a God, as a human who makes mistakes, and has a track record here for defending God probably more than the bonafide Christians do.

Not that that makes what he said any better. Just sayin' is all....



(NOTE: Firefox is dumber than me because I went to dictionary.com and discovered that bonafide spelling of the word bonafide is bonafide eventhough Firefox keeps telling me that bonafide is spelled wrong as bonafide, buy putting a miniature string of red dots under every single bonafide which I posted in this bonafide idiotic rambling.

Be sure to buy me a beer for snorting your chocolate milk out of your nose when you laughed if you ever see me at Dragon Con.....

Chris too....)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:51 AM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


I would go with E.

Here's why:

When they came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:52 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.

Police should taser you if you resist arrest. You have no right to sleep if you’re a known terrorist and an act of terrorism is suspected which you may have information about. You should be bitch slapped upside the head by a 300 lb dude named Ben Dover, if you molest a child.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?


Oh, 'bout the time two cops shot a student at my girlfriend's college for asking for badge numbers after they beat a drunk dude unconscious for not quietly getting into an ambulance...



I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.


I have major issues with authority, and this stems from the unprofessionalism I've witnessed in my years- from our Presidents to our police. That I have an ax to grind in no way changes the facts of these violations, or their destructive effects upon our society.

Laugh it up, fuzzball Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Awesome poem Veteran (or your choice of literary category for it here). One which I remember reading before but couldn't ever tell you where. Most likely, I'm guessing, in an old Disney cartoon that was thrown in the heap of old Disney cartoons too un-PC to be fit for viewing today, like the original cut of Fantasia which had a black girl Centaur slaving away for the white Centaur.


Might I be so bold to add a current event situation similar to that since it hasn't visibley gotten that bad for most yet?

"When they came for the smokers....
I remained silent
I was not a smoker....." ~ 6SJ

Not to lessen the message by any means. Just in awe of how history repeats itself in so many mysterious, and yet, subtle ways.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:11 AM

CHRISISALL


"When they came for Finn,
I remained silent;
I was not a MacCumhal"
.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I have major issues with authority, and this stems from the unprofessionalism I've witnessed in my years- from our Presidents to our police. That I have an ax to grind in no way changes the facts of these violations, or their destructive effects upon our society.

I think it does. Having a problem with authority, or have some desire to mischaracterise a president or country you don’t agree with, makes you willing to make accusations that aren’t valid. The truth is that some people spend a great deal of time trying to convince me that we are living in Nazi Germany, yet their horrific accusations never materialize. How many times should I believe someone who repeated screams fire when there is no fire. A population should be vigilant against the encroachment of government power, but vigilance against a threat and crying wolf are two different things. And the more often you cry wolf, the less you’ll be believed, and the more people who cry wolf the less vigilant a people will be. The truth is that screaming about human rights violations by our government when it is nothing more then your issue with authority puts us in more danger, not less.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:17 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.



It depends. There's sort of a decision/action tree at work, especially in RWED.

IF the alleged violator is not the US or a US ally
THEN no one is ever alarmed

IF the alleged violator is a US ally
THEN Chris's (E option applies

IF the alleged violator is the US
THEN don't wait for evidence or proof, be alarmed!




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:42 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that screaming about human rights violations by our government when it is nothing more then your issue with authority puts us in more danger, not less.


Finn, I feel you are as blinded by your need to legitimize authority as you say I am in my resentment of same. As Kirk said, reality is probably somewhere in between us. I am at least ready to acknowledge this possibility...

Still, how can you possibly justify not FIRING (or not prosecuting) someone in authority who behaves like this?:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1

IMO this is government sanctioned unprofessionalism- at best. At worst it's a symptom of what might be down the road...like getting tazed for jaywalking or not filing your taxes on time...


Chrisisall, alarmist with a cause

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"



"When they came for the sheeple,
I did NOT remain silent;
I did not want my fellow Browncoat Geezer to be mistreated!"


Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:23 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that some people spend a great deal of time trying to convince me that we are living in Nazi Germany, yet their horrific accusations never materialize.



Man.... it's really got to mess with your head that I'm trying to convince you that we're two steps away from living in (fictional) '40's Germany when I am probably the largest decryer of the Hollocaust here. lol

It's like a paradox which would cause Bender's CPU to explode.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:29 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.


I was going to say the same thing only you said it first and better so given that...I vote "G".

H

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:30 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.

I'm probably somewhere between E and G. I acknowledge -some- of the HR crud is just whining; on the flip side, I consider some of the taser usage that Finn finds acceptable to be unacceptable. For practical purposes, I'm probably much more 'looking at 'E', but keeping 'G' 'in mind'.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:33 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
the sheeple,


"Sheeple" are the result of cross breeding PirateNews and his beloved goat.

Sure they make handsome jackets and good eating...but the crazy talk you have to put up with when fattening them up is too much.

"Baaa-naziJewQueen. Baaa-Bushchildmoester. Baaa-911consipracy."

H

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


At what point?
When we're too lazy, too discouraged, too frightened or too authoritarian-minded to DO anything about it. Because by then well find out that we can't.
Which was, IMHO, about 20 years ago.

BTW:
Quote:

When it is actually human right violations
Would you taser the President? Would you waterboard a cop? Would you "detain" a solider in solitary for years and years w/o charges? I note for the record that the statement says HUMAN rights, not rights for authority but not for others. Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 6:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.


Thanks Signy, you never disappoint.

Fan of reason Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 8:46 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Would you taser the President?


Only if he was disorderly and refused to calm down. I note for the record that the Secret Service will likely intercede.
Quote:


Would you waterboard a cop?


If he (in his off duty time) was a high ranking Al Queda leader (everybody has a hobby...some of our cops have a band) who had and refused to divulge information that could be used to prevent terrorist attacks, then yes I would authorize it under controlled circumstances and on a limited basis.
Quote:


Would you "detain" a solider in solitary for years and years w/o charges?


I note for the record you failed to specify American soldiers. By the end of World War 2 some 400,000 German, Italian, and Japanese POWs were housed in approximately 500 camps in the United States. Many were conscripted into labor and used to harvest and process crops, build roads and waterways, fell trees, roof barns, etc.

The most dangerous ones were likely held in solitary for months, if not years. The same and worse was true for American soldiers in enemy custody...such is war.
Quote:


I note for the record that the statement says HUMAN rights, not rights for authority but not for others. Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.


One, you cannot taint an entire system with a few isolated incidents. There have been what...two incidents of waterboarding since 9/11, both high level Al Queda types, both are in good health, and both yielded results that directly resulted in the prevention of terrorist attacks.

Two, sometimes bad things happen to bad people and oddly...I don't feel real sorry for them. Fact is if they want their rights they need to be a little more cooperative. Without their complete physical and psychological capitulation, then I and the govt can not be held responsible for the consequences of their beligerance.

Three, if an innocent person is abused in any fashion that is a tragedy. However it is not the end of the world. The end of the world is far more likely to happen if our fear, caution, or good intentions prevent us from doing everything we can to stop terrorist attacks.

Four, our primary goal must be the prevention of terrorist attacks. Our respect for human rights is essential, but must always come secondary to survival. After all the Constitution is not a suicide pact and a dead man has no rights human or otherwise.

I would ask you reserve any further comments about human rights until AFTER the terrorists have chopped off your head. At that point your perspective will carry more weight. We'll keep you around in a jar and whenever we need someone to tell us we're too hard on the bad guys we'll get you out of the fridge and listen very carefully to your silent testimony.

H

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Monday, November 26, 2007 9:06 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Our respect for human rights is essential, but must always come secondary to survival.


Your post was well-worded Hero, and even funny, but I think where we differ is "Survival". You see it like it's an all-or-nothing proposition...if we lose we die...or so it would seem from your post.
We can't be responsible for a rogue Jack Bauer type- but once we legitimize, through legislation or consent, the ways of the savage, then we ARE that savage.

Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 9:12 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Your post was well-worded Hero, and even funny, but I think where we differ is "Survival". You see it like it's an all-or-nothing proposition...if we lose we die...or so it would seem from your post.


I guess that I just don't want to leave the issue of our survival to the mercy of our enemies.
Quote:


We can't be responsible for a rogue Jack Bauer type- but once we legitimize, through legislation or consent, the ways of the savage, then we ARE that savage.


I note for the record that Jack Bauer who tortures, murders, and drives without a seat belt...is an EXTREMELY popular character suggesting that the majority of people approve of such actions under the right circumstances (like right before a commercial break). I note for the record that all of life's really bad things happen in the last five or first five minutes of any given hour.

Edited to add: And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.

H

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Monday, November 26, 2007 9:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I guess that I just don't want to leave the issue of our survival to the mercy of our enemies.
HERO-This is the all-or-nothing part. Enemies. All of them. All willing to drop THE BIG ONE on us if they can.

In reality, people our are enemies to varying degrees. Some may want to bury/isolate us economically. Others may simply want to thwart our hold on Mideast oil. Others may stand aside and let third parties do the dirty-work. Still others may feel that they need an invulnerable self-defense. Only a few really hate the USA with a white-hot passion aimed at destroying the USA in toto, and those are typically not affiliated with bona-fide nations which generally have a lot to lose in a no-holds-barred fight (altho there are exceptions to everything). Because even our enemies have self-interest. You just learn to create win-win situations where you can, and where you can't you deal in proportionate response. It's called realism. You may have heard of it.

BTW- The USA airwaves are saturated with nonsense like "24". That's what makes us a nation of idiots. Not saying that you are.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 11:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall



But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 11:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall



But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?


Geezer, show me please where I've NOT called Chinese government a bunch of evil neo-comms...
I've condemned what's happening at Darfur, the treatment of Palistinians...I hated the South African government way before Lethal Weapon 2 made it fashionable...
Please don't lay that trip on me bro, we actually see eye-to-eye on many things here, K?

Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 11:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.


Updrafts.

Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 11:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:14 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"


"Keep the Shiny side up"



Touche. Actually, I saw to it that they were aware that they had the right to remain silent.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, show me please where I've NOT called Chinese government a bunch of evil neo-comms...
I've condemned what's happening at Darfur, the treatment of Palistinians...I hated the South African government way before Lethal Weapon 2 made it fashionable...



Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.

I tried a couple of times concerning Zimbabwe, but all I got back was either 'the US does worse' or 'the US government isn't doing enough to stop it'.

I'm very much afraid that here in RWEDland, my earlier theory holds true. If it ain't the US or their allies accused of human rights violations, no one wants to talk about it.

Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:23 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


6SJ,

Don't smoke myself, not counting my twice yearly cigar. But I feel for you and all my friends at the neighborhood bar that have to keep walking outside to have a smoke.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?

This was started as a domestically-oriented thread, sparked (if you'll excuse the pun) by a vid I saw of a police officer tasing a guy he pulled over for not listening closely enough.
Once again- I only have a say (and a teenie-tiny one at that) over stuff that happens in the country I am a citizen of, okay? So I'm always gonna start RIGHT HERE.

You think somewhere in Zimbabwe there's a guy right now flaming his fellow citizen for concentrating on problems in ZIMBABWE, and not ever discussing the taser abuse in the U.S.?????

So there Chrisisall

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:30 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.

I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?

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Monday, November 26, 2007 12:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.



Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.

People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.

Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.

Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.

Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 1:00 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.

I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?



Not a flawed concept, but I don't get that vibe from a lot of folks here. They seem to be saying, as has been noted before, that the US is one of the worst (if not THE worst) human rights abusers, and one step away from replacing the Nazis and Stalin-era Russia as the most evil.

I don't buy that, and think that if all countries were evaluated fairly, with no agenda, the US would be a pretty good example of what is good. I agree that there are things to fix, but if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 1:06 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

Well, it's kinda expected of a dictatorship, and can be usually taken as read that people don't agree with such things. However when it's the enlightened leader of the western world, it has somewhat more of an impact. The question can be asked, how can the western world condemn human rights abuses, while doing the same thing? Do as we say, not as we do?

When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 1:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
Because people on the board are well-aware that North Korea, Russia and other nations on our "enemies list" violate human rights, and the media faithfully reflects those views.

But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations. For example, Pakistan (our ally du jour) did more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Arab world than any of our so-called enemies. Saudi Arabia has been a repressive regime for decades. Saddam Hussein was our ally at the same time he was dumping chemical weapons on the Kurds. The "freedom fighter" mujahideen were lunatic islamists.

Just providing balance.
Quote:

if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad. So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:05 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.



If we were doing the same things, with even close to the same frequency, this might be a valid point.

Please show me all the millions in the US who've been forced into refugee camps by their own government; to be bombed from aircraft, raped and murdered by militias, and have all these actions denied by their government in the face of overwhelming evidence. Happens in Sudan, not here.

Tell me about diversion of donated food from the starving population to maintain an American army thats 20% of the population. No, that would be North Korea.

How about the 8000% inflation and confiscated properties going to the American President's cronies. Zimbabwe.

If that stuff were happening here, I'd be at the barricades. It's not. Not even close. So instead I'll be at the polls.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.

Also, I'm going to repeat my point about nations that have good human rights records at home having better human rights records abroad. The reason being that human rights "at home" is what nations do when nobody is looking very closely. (Since it takes an egregious act to make the world community sit up and take notice.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:27 PM

KIRKULES


Right on Geezer,
Same people decrying human rights abuses in the US are perfectly willing to have the US stand by waiting for a UN vote while thousands die. Then if the US does something unilaterally to help people we're imperialist bastards.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:34 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations.



Bull. Unless you've just been watching Fox News(I guess. Never watch it, myself). Stuff about lack of human rights in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. is all over the print, broadcast, and internet media.

Quote:

Geezer - given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.

SignyM - Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad.



Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?

I could go on, but you (should) get the point. Europe ain't that pure when it comes to rights abuses.

Quote:

So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.



Ah, false dilemma, the new ad hominem.

Seems a perfectly valid question about how you would allocate resources.

If you had the resources (and resources actually are limited, you know) to:
a) either prevent a few thousand drunks and rowdies from being tased,
b)or feed a few hundred thousand starving North Koreans,
but not both, which would you do?

Keep in mind that although in the US, some drunks and rowdies are inappropriately tased, we're already feeding the North Koreans.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


(H) When some pack of idiots forms a Government.

At most, one person can oppress maybe an extended family, if they let em, and they gotta sleep sometime.

At most, one person, under ideal circumstances, could kill maybe a couple dozen people in a day.

A Government can oppress an entire country.
A Government can kill nearly 20,000 people in a day.

Government is the problem, and yet masquerades as it's own solution - it's like the One Ring, sure it's powerful, but that power comes with an inevitable and irrevokable price on those who use it.

In time, every earthly Government has fallen to it, only to be replaced by another, and another, which in turn will also fall to it in an explosive rush of chaos, misery and destruction, and the only check against it whatever is a rabid defense the very moment it inevitably oversteps it's bounds - a defense that, historically, generally fails because it's put into action far too late by people who usually deny the threat until it's unignoreable.

For myself, I think it's time that we, as a species, grew up and quit depending on the surrogate parentage of Government - throw that damn ring back in the fire where it belongs, and get on with evolving in a mental, emotional, and social aspect instead of simply physical, cause emotionally we're still at the have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff level of thought and behavior.

And I really don't think that's gonna happen till we have the ability and drive to get off this puny little rock and out into the universe at large, away from the greedy and grasping hands of that surrogate parentage strangling our humanity in it's crib before it even takes it's first baby steps.

And that's if we manage to do it before some pack of maniacs we handed the power to do it destroys our present living space with nuclear fire and radiation, bioweapons or genetic tinkering to make us more docile and controllable, which WILL happen, or at least be attempted, the moment the powers that be think it's technically viable and feasible to try it.

History is the key to predicting future events Chrisisall - look at the picture from a wider scale and it's usually pretty clear how things are gonna go.

Me, I want off this rock.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:46 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.



Yep. Easy to tell you're being objective about this. Obviously the Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army, the Chinese and the Russians had nothing to do with any of those deaths. Surprised you didn't bring up all those South Koreans we killed after the peace-loving Peoples Republic and their helpers - Hey, China and Russia again - tried to liberate them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
For myself, I think it's time that we, as a species, grew up and quit depending on the surrogate parentage of Government - throw that damn ring back in the fire where it belongs, and get on with evolving in a mental, emotional, and social aspect instead of simply physical, cause emotionally we're still at the have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff level of thought and behavior.



Or, more likely, the Giant Purple Wish-granting Grape will come down and make everything all better.

Impossible solutions are not solutions at all. Try suggesting something actually doable for a change.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yep. Easy to tell you're being objective about this. Obviously the Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army, the Chinese and the Russians had nothing to do with any of those deaths.
The VC were in their own country. What were WE doing there? The way I head it, Ho Chi Minh came to us for help in freeing Vietnam from the French. He figured, having once been a rebellious colony, that we'd understand.

HA!

BTW, I'm not counting WWI, WWII, or the ten million or so natives that we genocided.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:55 PM

KANEMAN


When there is a violation. The real ?...is what to do? Do we fight it with a gun, money, or...?

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Monday, November 26, 2007 2:58 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?


Oh, 'bout the time two cops shot a student at my girlfriend's college for asking for badge numbers after they beat a drunk dude unconscious for not quietly getting into an ambulance...



I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall



Voteronpaulisall.....Really....

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Monday, November 26, 2007 3:00 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.



It depends. There's sort of a decision/action tree at work, especially in RWED.

IF the alleged violator is not the US or a US ally
THEN no one is ever alarmed

IF the alleged violator is a US ally
THEN Chris's (E option applies

IF the alleged violator is the US
THEN don't wait for evidence or proof, be alarmed!




"Keep the Shiny side up"



he has a point about Rwer's....

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Monday, November 26, 2007 3:05 PM

KANEMAN


FredFima..
"Government is the problem,"

No. THIS Govenment is a problem. If the gov. was for the people, by the people...this would not be an issue. When we are stuck with two families running this nation that are both tied to the same CFR anchor...you are correct.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 4:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Impossible solutions are not solutions at all. Try suggesting something actually doable for a change.

Oh you're completely welcome to cling in fear to big daddy Govs leg screaming about how it's scary outside, if you like...

Not all of us are so afflicted.

FIRST, design a ship that doesn't NEED to take off and land in a damn gravity well, as a start.

THEN use those piece of shit shuttles to carry the parts to the L5 point and put em together.

THEN start actively experimenting in a nearby, known environment with deep space operation, and learn how to DO it.

But as mentioned elsewhere, the LAST thing any earthly Government wants is it's slaves out of it's effective reach and threat...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The VC were in their own country.



And the NVA regulars, and the Chinese and Russians?

Besides, I know firsthand how the VC fought. Torture and terror were their stock in trade. Remember the My Lia massacre and the outrage at that? the VC did that, and worse, on a daily basis. I spent a year there receiving front-line reports, straight from the field, like, "VC entered village of X. Killed village chief and family. Killed school teacher and family. Kidnapped 4 teenage boys. Stole all rice." every day. Don't talk to me about the VC.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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