REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Right to Privacy

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 13:07
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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


There's been a good bit of talk on several threads about an individual's "Right to Privacy". I'm really curious as to what everyone thinks this right means. Please let me know:

-How far you think your right of privacy goes.
-Who you think is responsible for maintaining and enforcing your right to privacy.
-What laws or statutes you believe enumerate your privacy rights.

I'll add my two cents later.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:30 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
-How far you think your right of privacy goes.


Thats subjective. The legal standard is 'a reasonable expectation of privacy'. That standard can change in different circumstances.

Certainly a phone call is private. But that expectation is not there when talking on a cell in a crowded room or on a public phone. Your right to be secure in your person from invasive medical procedures could be trumped by a threat to public safety like if you have TB and want to fly on a plane.
Quote:


-Who you think is responsible for maintaining and enforcing your right to privacy.


The Courts.
Quote:


-What laws or statutes you believe enumerate your privacy rights.


The idea of a privacy right is enumerated in some laws, but it does not expressly exist in the Federal Constitution. Instead the Courts say that it is implied by the nature of the Bill of Rights. The courts say the Bill of Rights creates a penumbra (the dry area beneath on umbrella) into which other rights, such as privacy, fall.

H

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:00 AM

SERGEANTX


- How far you think your right of privacy goes.

The government demands information about me that I wouldn't voluntarily provide anyone else. As such they have a responsibility to keep that information under lock and key.

- Who you think is responsible for maintaining and enforcing your right to privacy.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'enforce' my right to privacy, as it's simple a matter of refraining from violating it.

In general, this issue only applies to government. Information that I provide freely to non-government entities is theirs to do with as they please. IF they promise to keep it private, then they have a responsibility to due so, but this really isn't an issue of 'rights', just a matter of contractual obligation (if they promise to keep it private and don't, they can be sued).

- What laws or statutes you believe enumerate your privacy rights.

Amendments IX and X

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What I would like and what I can expect are two different things. I would LIKE my right to privacy to extend not only to the government but also to other entities like corporations.

Right now, the government tracks any financial transaction over $10,000. In fact, if you do anything "suspicious", such as pay off your credit cards, you many come under investigation. (I was going to add that to the Homegrown terrorism thread in response to Geezer's assertion that Homeland Security couldn't possibly track things to that detail. Not only CAN they, they already ARE.)
Quote:

He was referring to the recent decision by him and his wife to be responsible, to do the kind of thing that just about anyone would say makes good, solid financial sense. They paid down some debt. The balance on their JCPenney Platinum MasterCard had gotten to an unhealthy level. So they sent in a large payment, a check for $6,522.

And an alarm went off. A red flag went up. The Soehnges' behavior was found questionable. And all they did was pay down their debt. They didn't call a suspected terrorist on their cell phone. They didn't try to sneak a machine gun through customs. They just paid a hefty chunk of their credit card balance. And they learned how frighteningly wide the net of suspicion has been cast.

After sending in the check, they checked online to see if their account had been duly credited. They learned that the check had arrived, but the amount available for credit on their account hadn't changed...

"When you mess with my money, I want to know why," he said... They were told, as they moved up the managerial ladder at the call center, that ... if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified. ... He learned about changes in something called the Bank Privacy Act.

"The more I'm on, the scarier it gets," he said. "It's scary how easily someone in Homeland Security can get permission to spy." Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up. The Soehnges were apparently found not to be promoting global terrorism under the guise of paying a credit-card bill. They never did learn how a large credit card payment can pose a security threat. But the experience has been a reminder that a small piece of privacy has been surrendered. Walter Soehnge, who says he holds solid, middle-of-the-road American beliefs, worries about rights being lost.


www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=RAISEALARM-02-28-06

I expect my phone calls and emails to be private, unless there is a WARRANT to snoop in on me. But the phone lines of millions of Americans have been hooked up to spyware at central switching stations, and the phone companies have already admitted to providing information on tens of thousands of people without a warrant or court order.
Quote:

... an NSA agent showed up at the San Francisco switching center in 2002 to interview a management-level technician for a special job. In January 2003, Klein observed a new room being built adjacent to the room housing AT&T's #4ESS switching equipment, which is responsible for routing long distance and international calls.

"I learned that the person whom the NSA interviewed for the secret job was the person working to install equipment in this room," Klein wrote. "The regular technician work force was not allowed in the room."

Klein's job eventually included connecting internet circuits to a splitting cabinet that led to the secret room. During the course of that work, he learned from a co-worker that similar cabinets were being installed in other cities, including Seattle, San Jose, Los Angeles and San Diego.

"While doing my job, I learned that fiber optic cables from the secret room were tapping into the Worldnet (AT&T's internet service) circuits by splitting off a portion of the light signal," Klein wrote. The split circuits included traffic from peering links connecting to other internet backbone providers, meaning that AT&T was also diverting traffic routed from its network to or from other domestic and international providers, according to Klein's statement.

The secret room also included data-mining equipment called a Narus STA 6400, "known to be used particularly by government intelligence agencies because of its ability to sift through large amounts of data looking for preprogrammed targets," according to Klein's statement.


www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70619

I expect my house and person to be secure, unless there is a WARRANT or court order that says otherwise. Clearly, the right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure is specified in the Constitution. Unfortunately, we can't depend on the Administration to defend our rights because they're intent on ignoring them, so it falls to the ACLU, EFF and other civil rights organizations and the neutrality of the courts.


Furthermore, I would LIKE there to be a law that says that ANY institution or company that keeps a database on identifiable persons have to do three things:
1) They have to notify the person that a database is being kept and detail the type pf information that is being held.
2) They have to provide each identifiable person in their databases with a copy of the information if requested
3) They must provide a means for correction, deletion, and (where possible) opting out.

That would include Google, the biggest database of them all.


This would require a law be passed, but since our lawmakers are in the pockets of the insurance companies, banks and credit card companies, retailers etc. it'll never happen.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:59 AM

SERGEANTX


The issue of concern to me in this area is the technique that some of our national law enforcement agencies have been using of late.

They do an end run around the rules limiting their investigative powers and outsource it to private companies. The private companies, not being under the purview of the constitution, can collect and collate whatever information that they want. Of course, now that the feds are a paying customer, they have incentive to keep all kinds of information that they wouldn't have bothered with before.

This is essentially the same issue as the mercenaries we're hiring to do our dirty work in Iraq.

Government is not something that should ever be 'outsourced' or 'privatized' in my opinion. If anything we need an amendment clarifying this loophole.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA


"How far you think your right of privacy goes."

Absolute, no information whatsoever of any kind unless I give it to them, and if given, is not to be shared with anyone else without my express and explicit consent.

"Who you think is responsible for maintaining and enforcing your right to privacy."

You are, but in our current nightmare of a legal and social system, it's virtually impossible to do so once the information has been wilded.

However, your responsibility does entail some self-enforcement even now, you can flat refuse to answer, and when pressured under duress for information, there's no reason to give factual information to someone trying to extort it from you.

Case in point, K-Mart...
"Can I have your zipcode please ?"
"No."
"I cannot ring you up without a zipcode."
"Fine, 77347."
"But don't you live around here ?"
"Is that your business ? you wanted a zipcode, I gave you one."
"Okay."

In the end, defense of your privacy is your own responsibility, the government is only required to not violate it, which requirement they prettymuch ignore, but active defense of it is YOUR responsibility, not theirs.

"What laws or statutes you believe enumerate your privacy rights."

Amendments I, IV, IX and X, backed up by the tattered and much ignored shield of the Privacy Act of 1974 - which has been at this time utterly ignored if not superceded by unconstitutional acts in the other direction.

All of which are at best laughable in the face of a government that does not even seem to acknowledge that restrictions on their behavior carry the force of law, it's like asking a corrupt policeman to arrest himself because you don't have the authority.

=========================

When it comes down to it, really, if you want information, NEED it to do what I pay you to do, one can damned well ASK me for it - the auto mechanic would like to know what kind of car, make and model, and what I might feel is wrong with it, that information is needful to him to make an appropriate diagnoses and estimate... and if he wishes to call me with his assessment then if we both agree (which we do not), my phone number.

He doesn't need to know my name.
He doesn't need to know where I live.
He doesn't need to know anything beyond that required to properly do the work.

I drop the vehicle off, with the required information and a cash downpayment for the inspection, sans phone number, and come back the next day for the estimate.

The work gets done, he gets paid in cashy money, and we go our seperate ways.

AND he doesn't sell my name, address and phone number to some automotive marketing list to call me twice a day telemarketing crap and spamming my mailbox with crap offers... cause he never has it in the first place.

In the end, YOU are responsible for protecting your information, and should consider any request or demand for it in the context of "How is that your business ?".

Not that it's actually *possible* to fully defend in our nightmare society, but one can at least limit the flow.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I think that one should be asked if you want your info in a database or not - and your wishes should be adhered to. I would be more than happy to give up personalized ads and junk mail, and email, to be off their obnoxious info gathering radar.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Outsourcing "snooping" is a real problem. That's why if a law was passed that required database managers to inform their subjects on a yearly basis, along with the right to correct or challenge data, it would whittle down the number of databses to those that were really essential.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I really don't want to do the fiddly work of having to dicker with all the db reps about whether or not this piece or that piece of data is good. It's hard enough just getting the post office to give me my gd mail. I just want to opt out !



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:33 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
When it comes down to it, really, if you want information, NEED it to do what I pay you to do, one can damned well ASK me for it - the auto mechanic would like to know what kind of car, make and model, and what I might feel is wrong with it, that information is needful to him to make an appropriate diagnoses and estimate... and if he wishes to call me with his assessment then if we both agree (which we do not), my phone number.

He doesn't need to know my name.
He doesn't need to know where I live.
He doesn't need to know anything beyond that required to properly do the work.


I see your point...its like leaving your keys with the mechanic...they need your CAR keys, not all your keys. But your wrong saying they don't need more information:

Your name would help.

Boss: "Who's car is that?"
Mechanic: "Don't know, some guy told me to fix it and he'd be back later."

Address is important for billing purposes. And so they can send you a coupon for $5 off your next oil change.

A phone number can be helpful to tell you your car is done or not done or ask permission before more invasive work is done. I note for the record that a reverse directory search can often give them your name and address.

H

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:34 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I think that one should be asked if you want your info in a database or not - and your wishes should be adhered to.


Then all the information from people who don't want their information in the database can be put together in a database...

H

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:45 PM

LEADB


"How far you think your right of privacy goes."
Does or would like it to? Of the former I'm not sure. Of the latter, the government should only collect and retain the minimum of information it needs to do the business I need it to do. I need it, for instance, to keep records of land I own, and to do that, the government needs my name, and an address to send the tax bill to. For that purpose, it does -not- need to know where I work nor how much I am paid, or any of another host of information. What about the government's needs? Unfortunately, such a 'need' can be documented in some boundless way by some bureaucrat such it very quickly become meaningless short of 'all'. As a consequence, I quickly become skeptical when told the government 'needs' certain information.

"Who you think is responsible for maintaining and enforcing your right to privacy."
Maintaining? To some extent I am. When I provide information, I read the privacy agreement; and I expect those I deal with to live up to them; thus they accept some responsibility to maintain.
Enforcement? My next door neighbor is in charge of that. I try not to be too threatening, but if necessary the courts.

Quote:

Frem
Case in point, K-Mart...
"Can I have your zipcode please ?"
"No."
"I cannot ring you up without a zipcode."

If they give me that line, I tell them I've already spoken to the store manager (I have, after leaving a purchase at the register to do so; which they had to re-ring (it was, luckily just two items)) and they can do it without my zip, and if necessary I will wait for them to learn the procedure to avoid me having to provide it (which I've done on more than one occasion).

"What laws or statutes you believe enumerate your privacy rights."
Quote:

Frem...
Amendments I, IV, IX and X, backed up by the tattered and much ignored shield of the Privacy Act of 1974 - which has been at this time utterly ignored if not superceded by unconstitutional acts in the other direction.

Sounds about right, and it saves me from having to double check.

---
Did you know they don't allow reverse phone directory lookup on the web for UK phone numbers. I'm starting to like those folks.


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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA


LeadB, that falls under the heading of poisoning the well, for me - if pushed, pressured or extorted, I will simply give them false information, I have several sets of it completely memorised for the purpose, being semi-eidetic.

As useful as that is, it's also useful in that by remembering where and when that info was given, one can almost immediately identify who "sold you down the river" when the telemarker calls and asks for mister so-and-so, or junk mail arrives for mister such-and-such, and I can flat out tell you the absolute worst leaker of personal data would be Experian, who will make no effort to verify the data and immediately to sell it to anyone, anywhere, for any use, as long as they make a buck off it.

Funny that, they go through all this rigamarole and fishing expeditions to dig as much detailed information out of their "clients" (read: victims) as possible, then sell it directly to any credit scammer with a vendors license...

And then blame the customer for not protecting their information, when Experian demanded it in the first place as a condition of doing business.

And then justify MORE invasive measures to "protect you" to gather more data, to sell to even scummier people.

It's a circle jerk, and a racket - which could have been wholly avoided by simply respecting peoples privacy in the first place.

99 times out of a 100, the credit jacker didn't steal the info at all, he just bought it right from the financial institution who extorted it from you in the first place.

But you get the blame.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:07 PM

LEADB


Yeh, my favorite is the slightly misspelled name. You learn who not to do business with.

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